Timing treatments

[L Daxon]

Some of the chemical treatments for different diseases and/or pests say best to treat in the fall and/or spring. I am assuming it wouldn't be a good idea to start treatment with two or more chemicals on the same day.  For example, if I wanted to treat prophylacticly this fall with terramycin powder for AFB and with Fumagilian-B for Nosema, would it be better not to start them on the same day.  The terramycin powder says it requires 3 treatments 5-7 days apart while the Fumagilian-B is added to 2:1 syrup.    The terramycin is going to take longer so should I start it first and then maybe after the first week start the Fumagilin when I get into the hive to do the second terramycin treatment.  Or should I do one in the fall and one in the spring.  And what if in a couple of weeks while I am in the middle of the terramycin treatments, I decide the powdered sugar treatments I am doing for Varroa control aren't doing any good and I can't get my mite counts down so I need to treat with Apiguard. Would it be a problem to be treating with terramycin and Apiguard at the same time? 

I guess what I am asking is:  Is there any rule of thumb about combining chemical treatments, or should you never be using more than one kind of treatment at a time?

[hardwood]

My question is; Why treat for anything prophylactically? Are your bees experiencing problems? Are your mite counts too high? Are you seeing fecal staining on the face of the hive? Is there a terrible smell in the brood chamber and the larvae are yellow and stringy?

In short, why treat if it's not needed.

My .02

Scott

[Kathyp]

i haven't taken a poll, but i think most folks have quit with the antibiotic treatments unless they have a problem or are in a heavy AHB breakout area.  you'll have to make that call, but i agree with hardwood.  you need to ask why you are doing a thing and not just do it because it's what someone told you to do.  that comes with some time and experience.

when you use apiguard is very dependent on the temps in your area.  you want it warm enough, but not to hot.  it seems to work well, but remember that it takes 4 weeks so you have to factor in time with your temps.

how high is your mite count?

[hardwood]

Kathyp said it much better than I...that's cuz she's eloquent and I'm just a redneck!.

Scott

[Kathyp]

hey!  i take some pride in my redneck status!   :evil:

[L Daxon]

Does nobody on this board treat prophylactically?

I was a back yard hobbyist throughout the 1980s in Oklahoma and Virginia and I treated once a year w/terramycin for AFB whether I needed to or not.  I never lost a hive (only had 2 at a time) and never had trouble over wintering, etc.  I don't remember IPM being a big deal back then, but then we didn't have the internet and access to all the info we do now, especially as hobbyist.

Taking the hobby up again after 20 years, I am overwhelmed by all the stuff there is to deal with now, varroa mites, tracheal mites, shb, etc, that weren't issues back when...I read a report today that said up to 30% or more of U.S. hives now die out each year, and 75% of that die out is probably do to varroa mites.  And yes, I have a varroa mite problem.  I did 2 24-hr counts the first of the week and they were both over 120.  I did a powdered sugar dusting on Thursday but it seemed to really upset the hive.  I am sure my technique wasn't the best.  So I ordered some Apiguard (temps have been in the 90s this week--should still be in the 80s for a couple of weeks or more).  But that is what got me to thinking about using Apiguard and terramycin at the same time.

I can easily be talked out of treating prophylactically, just a carry over of an old habit  I guess,  and I do have an A.J. Beetle trap on, and the screened bottom board to help with mites, and I will do the powdered sugar dusting a time or two more, hoping my technique improves.   But I always thought treating once a year with terramycin was better than risking getting AFB and having to burn up the equipment. A bottle/package of terramycin is a lot cheaper than a new hive set up.

[rdy-b]

tylan is the new antibiotic for AFB -reason being is AFB became resistant to TMC-because everybody was treating
prophalactily -tylan wont work for EFB like TMC- ;)   :lol:  RDY-B

[bassman1977]

Does nobody on this board treat prophylactically?

I can proudly say that I have never stuck poison in my hives ever.  The most I've ever done is AJ's Beetle Eaters and that was this year for Small Hive Beetles.  Even that was more for preventative measures than a huge need.  They take a small amount of corn oil.

[rast]

 To try to answer your question, I would not treat for afb and mites at the same time. I know of several older keepers that treat prophylactically.
 The only thing I have ever treated for is varroa. First sugar dusting unsuccessfully, then oxalic acid vapor and this year Apigard on selected hives.

[Michael Bush]

Last time I treated with Terramycin was 1975 or 1976.  I've never had AFB.  I've never used Fumidil.  I've never used menthol nor treated for Tracheal Mites.  Never used Apiguard or any thymol product.  Have not treated any hives for Varroa since 2003 and only a some of them then.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

[deknow]

tylan is the new antibiotic for AFB...

tylan is _a_ new antibiotic for afb, but it is not a replacement for TM.  tylan is only approved for therapeutic treatment (an active case of AFB), _not_ for prophylactic treatment!

deknow

[L Daxon]

Okay, okay.  You guys have convinced me I don't need to treat prophylactically for anything.  That's why I asked.  I knew I would get some blow back for mentioning it, but if Michael B hasn't used terramyicn since the late 1970s, I guess I don't need to.  I'll even hold off with the Apiguard.  I do see a bee with deformed wings about once a week but I'll see if the hive can live with some level of mites.  I'll just keep checking my levels and see if I can't get'em coming down with powdered sugar. (I just bought some powdered sugar w/ no corn starch in it).

Since i am all by myself in a suburban neighborhood with just 2 hives and only using brand new equipment I would think my chances of picking up disease would be low, even though you can't control where the girls go.

Thanks everybody for your input.  I really appreciate your help and am glad to have you as a resource.

[Kathyp]

be aware that you will experience losses when you go treatment free.  you'll have to decide what you want to do.  some people are willing to not treat and just keep those bees that can survive.  that's what i have done, but i have replaced all my bees with (hopefully) survivor stock that i have captured over the years.

[rdy-b]

tylan is the new antibiotic for AFB...

tylan is _a_ new antibiotic for afb, but it is not a replacement for TM.  tylan is only approved for therapeutic treatment (an active case of AFB), _not_ for prophylactic treatment!

deknow

Interesting point you are making-I also find it of interest that in CALIFORNIA and many other states
it is unlawful to treat sell or posses infected AFB colonies- there is no therapeutic treatment only prophylactic-
anyway if resistance is a problem with TMC -tylan is the option that has been made available to the industry- 8-) RDY-B

[hardwood]

Idaxon, please don't take me the wrong way. By my saying why treat if you have no problem I wasn't saying you should never treat...that's a whole different discussion. I seldom treat, but when I find that mite counts are through the roof I'm comfortable with an oxalic acid vapor treatment.

Each of us tend to fumble our way through the experience of beekeeping until we find what we're comfortable with. My point is that you need to understand there are no hard-fast rules to beekeeping. Product manufacturers will have you convinced that you absolutely need their product for your bees to survive with a single ad and old beekeepers will try to convince you that their way is best because it has worked for them for X number of years.

This forum is invaluable in that you can hear the voices of many fellow beekeepers and choose your own path.

Be prepared for the loss of a hive or two before you find your groove. We're all here for you.

Scott 

[tecumseh]

hardwood writes:
Each of us tend to fumble our way through the experience of beekeeping until we find what we're comfortable with.

tecumseh:
bee keeping is pure application with some significant variation created by location.  foul brood is a good example here since there are locations where this long term problem still exist and other locations where you are not likely to see 1 case in 50 years.  I personally would rather deal with the problem via genetics rather than adding something to the hive but if I lived in some foul brood hot spot I would likely treat rather than take the chance of being forced to burn hives constantly.  if I was a commercial entity (which I ain't) that moved hives across multiple state borders there would be other issues at work and I would likely treat just to limit those concerns. 

in certain locations failure to treat for nosema before hand leave you with nothing but a mess come spring time.  so sometimes and in some location treatment ahead of the problem may be essential if you wish to constantly maintain a hive.  for myself I can somewhat recognize the subtle symptoms (here) of nosema so spot application is just much more economical (give the price of the product).

some products like TM and fumidil should be useable at the same time.  although beyond some time constraint I not certain why you would wish to apply multiple things to a hive at the same time.

I don't really treat for varroa (except in a crisis in which case I utilize oxalic vapor) but I would be careful about applying anything else when you are also using a acid wash type product.  simple chemistry would suggest that by there very nature acids are very reactive and chemically alter other products.

 

 

[L Daxon]

Now that I have learned to catch swarms (caught one of my own this a.m. as a matter of fact) and have learned about doing splits, I guess I can live with losing a hive or two (to anything but AFB, then you have to destroy the woodenware and all.)  I'll check at our next bkeeps association mtg. to see how common AFB is around here in central Oklahoma.  As long as I have access to swarms it is not so expensive to repopulate a hive if need be.

It's just as a hobbyist when you only have one or two hives and you lose one, it really sets you back.  Maybe I should plan on having more hives, four or more, so a loss or two wouldn't mean no honey for a season.

And "fumbling around" is certainly a good way to describe what I have done this year.  But I have learned sooooooo much, thanks to sites like this where I can listen to the big boys (and girls) and rookies alike share their knowledge and experiences.  I am a former newspaper reporter so it is in my nature to ask a lot of questions.  Excuse me if I post too often/ask too much, but I am sure i drove more than one teacher nuts asking questions all the time.  I guess I need to get a local mentor who I can turn to for advice, as well as all you wonderful people of this board.  BEEKEEPERS ARE THE BEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.