foundationless building

[tlynn]

After adding in some fountationless brood frames for the first time, my bees have built them out beautifully, yet they have only attached them to the top bar and are maintaining a gap of maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch everywhere else.  When I pull the frames they are laden with brood and seem to move a bit within the frame if I change the angle barely from the vertical.  Will they eventually close the gap? 

[luvin honey]

It sounds like they are maintaining their "bee space" for maneuvering around the hive. I have topbars, and they attach a tiny bit to the sides for stability and then leave this same bee space around the rest of the sides and bottom.

[bassman1977]

Will they eventually close the gap?

Probably not.  I agree with the above.  This is pretty much the same results I see in my foundationless hives.

[Natalie]

I think everyone gets different results. I have topbar hives but they don't have the sidebars on them and I haven't had any attachments but my 8 langs are all foundationless and they attach the comb to all the sides on all of my frames.
The only exception is occasionally I will see a tiny little opening, along the top of the bar that they use to go back and forth, enough room for a single bee to squeeze through but as far as attaching the comb to all sides it has been my experience that they close them up.

[jdpro5010]

I am also using foundationless frames in some of my hives, but I horizontally wired them just for the reasons mentioned above.  I now have no problems.

[Kathyp]

some of mine attach all the way down, some don't.  be careful when you check those frames.  if you get them horizontal, you can lose the comb.  if that happens and it's brood, reattach with rubber bands as  you would with a cutout.

[Ross]

They will eventually make some attachments most likely.  Sometimes it takes a while.  They seldom attach all the way around.

[Brian D. Bray]

They will eventually make some attachments most likely.  Sometimes it takes a while.  They seldom attach all the way around.

I have foundationless frames from 3 years ago that were just attached at the ends, still have the bottoms of some to go.  The age of the comb doesn't affect whether or not the bees will rework the combs, when they do they often choose to close some of the gaps.  I've seen it done on 5 year old combs in years past.

[jclark96]

Just don't forget to give them a full frame when you add a box, or you will get a box of Crazy Comb. If you don't they will try to build from the bottom up.

[jojoroxx]

I have also started experimenting with foundationless building. The fragile nature of the primarily free hanging comb was my first impression. You can't tip it to the side as you would with normal foundation! You could, maybe once they attach it to the bottom...if they do at all!

ONE OBSERVATION i MADE:   they built A LOT OF DRONE CELLS. Could it be this hive is planning to swarm? Eggs and queen are still present but queen cells (center of frame) were observed. I wonder...

[Natalie]

The comb is not as fragile once it ages a little bit, I have even seen a big difference in a couple of weeks with mine.
If they attach it on at least 3 sides I think its fine, I know I turn mine on its side at times if I am looking for something or holding towards my husband to help look for the queen etc.
Of course I would only do that with a frame I know can handle that and you know pretty quickly how fragile a comb is and I wouldn't do it on a hot day either when the wax is warm.
Are you sure they are drone cells? Natural comb can appear to have drone cells when they are just storage cell. Are they capped?
I know from reading alot on this forum that many times a colony on natural comb will build alot of drone comb at first and if you just leave it they will move on.
I haven't seen much of it in my hives, really just one that has a frame of capped drone comb and I am on all foundationless frames.

[Michael Bush]

>Will they eventually close the gap? 

Eventually they will attach a lot of it but there will always be some gaps.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG

[jojoroxx]

...and I wouldn't do it on a hot day either when the wax is warm!  :-P (this sounds like good advice!)
Are you sure they are drone cells? Based on the size yes. This newly drawn comb is just 10 days old. It is uncapped and there are (drone?) larvae in the cells.... Natural comb can appear to have drone cells when they are just storage cell. .... many times a colony on natural comb will build a lot of drone comb at first and if you just leave it they will move on.This was my impression. They built up about 1/2 a frame with what appear to be drone cells and the rest is all normal sized brood/storage cells.

great info!! Thanks Natalie. I do love the foundation less approach, even though I tried it on somewhat of a whim. Many of my frames were clogged up with bee bread from my failed hives from LAST YEAR!! The bees were not doing a thing with it, except sealing it over with propolis. I got tired of looking at it, and working around it, so I forced out the (plastic) foundation and let them have a go at some natural comb. They seem to really love it.