Swithc Frames? Or not....

[josbees]

So my really weak hive now has its third queen since June.  And things seem to be going well, though I still only have four frames partially drawn out.  I was going to take a frame from my "good" hive's bottom deep and put it in this weak hive to help bolster it.  So I went into the "good" hive this morning.  The top deep has honey and pollen.  But the bottom deep really surprised me.  The brood is spotty, there's some pollen and larva, but not nealy as much as I expected.  None of the frames was strong enough to be transferred.

So now it looks like I actually have two weak hives instead of the one good/one bad that I thought.

And BTW, the "good" hive has still been taking syrup while the weaker one stopped taking syrup about three weeks ago. 

This is all very strange, confusing, perplexing to this New Beek.

Any ideas what's going on and what I should do now?

Thanks.

[Kathyp]

i have had the same thing happen.  i figured it had to do with the queens preference for laying in the top box.  try taking some of the frames of honey and pollen from the middle of the box and swapping it for some frames from the bottom.  the goal being to open up the center of the hive, top and bottom for the queen.  also remember that there are times that the queen slows down laying.  sometimes it has to do with available food, but there are other times that i have not figured out.  be patient.

as for your 'weak' hive.  i'd leave it alone.  if you know you have a queen, and you know she's laying, let it be.  sounds like she's been in there less than a month?  you have probably not even had the first hatching from her efforts.

[doak]

Other than the normal slow down in the fall, The only times I know of when a queen would slow down is when she is getting to the end of her time, or, when there is a darth and the colony doesn't have many stores. Colonies will do only as much rearing as they have goods for.

I would think a spotted brood pattern would be a sign of the queen getting near her time.
jmo doak

[MustbeeNuts]

Well after some thought about a weak hive I had on my end,(desperately tried to patch it up)  I decided that the only reasonable thing for me to do was to combine. I guess my thoughts are that two weak ones will not get thru the winter, so combine while your still in the flo or feed them and help them grow, as far as the queen goes, well pick the best one and cull out the other one. JMHO as well but I think that would be your best option with the summer being where it is. Timing is paramount. and lol fall is coming fast. LOL  Again im just a newbie take it for what you want.

[josbees]

So how do you go about combining them, and if you did it, how did it go?  Mind you, I do like Kathy's response since that keeps me from getting too much in their faces.  As it were.......

[Kathyp]

my response presupposes that you will keep a close eye on things.... ;)

[MustbeeNuts]

So how do you go about combining them, and if you did it, how did it go?  Mind you, I do like Kathy's response since that keeps me from getting too much in their faces.  As it were.......

In my case the queen was definately gone, I requeened once and she was gone in two days for what ever reason, once the bees started to die off from age, I took the whole weak hive and walked it over to the other not so weak hive, I just dumped the bees out on the door step, took the frames with brood and put them in the new hive after I shook out the bees less than two hours they were all gone and inside the hive, only a handful of foragers came to the old location and that lasted the afternoon, by dark they were gone too, five days later the hive seemed to jump start and I have seen improvements since. Remember I'm a newbie like yourself, but since I experienced a similar problem figured to add my 2 Cents.

It's something you have to weigh out for yourself, if you  have a local beek you could also ask for their advice. I asked alot of experienced beeks here, and this is what the most suggestions were. I think in retrospect that it was good advice, it may not be right for every situation.  and I have no idea how long to wait in the north before its too late to combine if both are weak now.  :? Do you see either of them getting strong enough to winter out without intervention?

[josbees]

The way things are right now, I doubt either one would survive the winter.  The weak hive with the new queen still is only one deep.  And I'm always keeping a close eye on them -- I was just thinking it might not hurt to give them a couple more weeks to see what happens, if maybe they turn a corner.  If it looked like a combo was the way to go, is there an optimum time in the season to do it?

[MustbeeNuts]

The way things are right now, I doubt either one would survive the winter.  The weak hive with the new queen still is only one deep.  And I'm always keeping a close eye on them -- I was just thinking it might not hurt to give them a couple more weeks to see what happens, if maybe they turn a corner.  If it looked like a combo was the way to go, is there an optimum time in the season to do it?

I don't know when an ""optimum time" would be, but hopefully there would be ample time for them to join and begin to flourish,  I think you must have some time to watch and see. But it depends on the queen and how well she gets going. I'm sure one of the more experienced will comment  for you.

As an added note, I did a split two/three weeks back with a strong hive, its on the second now, granted I started with three frames brood an a new queen. they have filled the medium and are hard into the second, if they do a third thats like two deeps, and hopefully be good for winter. LOL Maybe? LOL 

[Cindi]

When you do a combine, another method other than dumping the bees infront of another colony is:  placing the hive on top of another colony, ensuring of course that there are not two queens.  A piece of newspaper placed on top of the colony with a couple of slits in it with your hive tool will assist the bees to mingle.  The two different scents of each hive are mingled slowly and the bees get to know each other slowly.  This is one of the easiest and most effective methods of uniting colonies.  It is fast, safe, and the bees do not fight each other, period.  Good luck.  Have the most wonderful and greatest of days.  Cindi

[josbees]

Cindi -- If I do end up going down that route (and I guess this is kind of a cart before the horse question) and do the combine as you suggested, that would then give me three deeps on top of each other.  Needing to bring them back down to two would be the next step, and how would I do that?

Thanks to all, as always, for great advice and help!

[Cindi]

Josh, if you proceed and wind up with 3 boxes and you feel three boxes is too much.  Remove the third box.  Shake the bees in this box infront of the colony and they will go in.  That is about the best way to do that thing.  Good luck.  Let us know how things turn out, beautiful and most wonderful day, love and live this great life.  Cindi

[Kathyp]

i would only add that you want to make sure the queen is not in the 3rd box before you shake it out.  i had to do this a couple of years ago.  the advice i got worked.  it was to shake each frame of the 3rd box over the hive.  this removed most of the bees.  after that, it was easy to make sure that the queen was not still on a frame.  i set the box away from the hive after removing all honey frames and by the next day, all the bees had moved into the hive.

  if you have brood in the 3rd box, you can make sure your queen is below, add an excluder until the brood is hatched, then shake out bees.  you'll know that the queen is not in the 3rd box and can be more aggressive.