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Author Topic: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.  (Read 3955 times)

Offline beemaster

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Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« on: December 27, 2014, 05:39:29 pm »
Which" RIGHT...  do you HOLD DEAREST. of all your RIGHTS  ?

Buzzbee and I spoke about having a forum for members: the forum is about the Rules of Our Land (sorry, but this is about American Laws and may Discuss Current events concerning the Laws of Our Land - BUT OF COURSE ALL MEMBERS from anywhere can join in on lively debate.

Here, you can debate the Amendments and Rights and the structure of our Republic. I'll start a debate, although I know it has been discussed before, it is always on the mind of the taxpayer. See you in the next post.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 08:56:10 pm »
I think the rights in the bill of rights are all dependent on one another.  Without free speech, without the right to keep and bear arms, without the right to believe what we want, without the right to our own privacy etc. you would have no way to defend other rights or change things.  In the end, of course, violence is the ultimate arbitrator so there would be no way to maintain a free people without them having the power to overthrow an unjust government.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 11:25:44 pm »
I agree.  you can't divorce them.  not only for the reasons Michael points out, but because if one is more important than another, would we protect the less important ones?  and if we don't, doesn't it make it easier to let the next one go?

this is why I reject the "living document" argument about the constitution.  once it becomes a flexible instrument, it becomes useless as protection from the government.  not to say that it can't be changed when it needs to be, but that, as the founders designed it, it should be very difficult to change. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Richard M

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2014, 12:23:45 am »
  In the end, of course, violence is the ultimate arbitrator so there would be no way to maintain a free people without them having the power to overthrow an unjust government.


That's nothing new - People with the most guns overthrowing governments they didn't like has been the way of life in South America, Africa and the Middle East for a long time now.

Offline beemaster

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2014, 10:55:56 am »
I think from all the reading I have done on WW2 era weapons - that the US and Russian are still still playing a deadly game of chess as in the cold was. In small battles, so old they aren't news worthy and many head-line news clips show militia using AK47, SMS, Mosin m38-44 gens, SVT40 and a lot of weapons now 70 to a hundred years in design. All the time I see ISIS with older weapons seems as many German and CCCP stuff - but by far the AK's are hung in tribal wars, on freedom fighters or rebals trying to effect government.

I know I can say I want everyone to have anyweapon you want as a citizen - but not GPS Guiden rocket launches made to fly 4000mph and hit a target 1000 miles away - I don't think "no matter how wealthy you are: save the big stuff for the military: who would always side on the citizenship in a time where they are told to go in and whipe out some looters, etc.. I sure hope.

My real point is, I can see how anti-gunners see a 4 day standoff with the police situations. Why (they will ask) does anyone have enough weapons and ammo to face off with the police and it be a stalemate gun for gun.

I'm a law abider - I may fell very different on some issues. but I obey the Law, I don't see a day when I'm fighting it out with a tank donated to a population of 8000 - I don't see a tank ready to ram my house into a pile. There are some people who paranoid, not just prepared for what the real world will present itself. Or should I say, if ANY KIND of SHTF occurs, I want to be on the police's side - which I hope are always there to protect and preserve.

Some of you think I'm imagining A shining city on a Hill. We'll never have peace in our own land, with the Faracan's the Sharptons,  the Jessee Jackson and the Obamas - all race haters. There are some angry people out there mad cause after 6 years Obama still has White People in this country - take a look at inner-cities and see the stupidity of having only one black cop on your police force. There are war-zone in many of our cities - if not all our cities. Gangs and drug-dealers that never get caught, and if they are - it only takes another hater to take his place.

This country will never settle race issues as long as THE PRESIDENT comes on TV and announces we still have a lot of racial strife in our Country - and to have a President say in so many words "The black man will have to try twice as hard to get the same job as a white man." This is treasonous - he NOW speaks for all American with no rebuttal - Lord.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 01:55:09 pm »
>I can see how anti-gunners see a 4 day standoff with the police situations. Why (they will ask) does anyone have enough weapons and ammo to face off with the police and it be a stalemate gun for gun.

Of course, in Mexico where guns are much more controlled, there are no standoffs and no violence...  ;) Yes, I see how they get to their erroneous and illogical conclusions... by emotion and only seeing things in simplistic one to one relationships...
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Offline Richard M

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 07:18:08 pm »


Of course, in Mexico where guns are much more controlled, there are no standoffs and no violence...  ;) Yes, I see how they get to their erroneous and illogical conclusions... by emotion and only seeing things in simplistic one to one relationships...


So where do the Mexicans buy their guns?

« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 03:12:32 am by Richard M »

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 09:25:51 am »
>So where do the Mexicans buy their guns?

From our ATF and FBI...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
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Offline jvalentour

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2015, 10:00:52 pm »
kathyp and michael bush, I agree.

Beemaster, I would like to point out that the beginning of the Ferguson protests were about overwhelming police force responding to the the rioters.  The police arrived in what was described in battle gear, armored vehicles, and AR-15's with long range scopes observing the protest.  Later anarchists took over and we all know the rest of the story.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a law and order guy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-reinbach/what-happened-to-protect-_b_6282012.html
 
I just want to point out that the police are becoming militarized in this country.  Much of it is surplus material from Afganistan and Iraq.  You don't have to look far to find stories of small towns receiving APC's and automatic AR's. 
Many police forces have "overwhelming force" policies as their treatment toward dangerous standoffs. 

I know I am going to be attacked by many for my opinion, but the local police have no business being militarized.  Some would say it's OK since they are getting bad guys.  It is not.  It is a matter of time until those militarized police forces start to take more and more of our rights away. 

You or your children or your grand children may face a militarized police force willingly under the direction of a powerful anti gun politician.   What are you going to do then?  Have you read stories of how Maryland law enforcement are pulling over our of state conceal carry licensees?  They scan license plates, pull them over, and toss them in jail (even if their gun is at home).  It's starting now.
http://redalertpolitics.com/2015/01/02/gun-owners-fear-police-targeting-maryland/

We are never again going to see the day were a Barney Fife carries one bullet in his shirt and Andy can talk his way with all the country folk.  Police forces should be well armed and have efficient tactical plans for their community, especially in the bigger cities.  The should have the best body armour, dash board cams and But for the rest of suburban and rural America, we don't need that.  There is nothing good that will come from a militarized police force.

I say it is not enough to say "I support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights."  We must be active politically on local, regional and national levels.  It is not enough to pay your one year renewal to the NRA every year, you must actively vet the politicians at every level.
(Especially those school boards).

Going back to kathyp and michael bush, all of our Rights are equal and they must be protected equally.  Equally and actively with diligence.  God Bless America.

Thank you for reading my rant, I'm headed downstairs to reload some brass and shoot some steel next week.

Offline beemaster

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2015, 01:58:24 am »
JV

Without retracing my words, I agree pretty much with everything you say. I've seen documentaries on the weapons our Federal government is passing down and then distributed further to local departments - I think it is inevitable, for one reason that has nothing in particular to do with armored vehicles, long rang high caliber weapons and full night visibility gear, etc.

You mention the issue. Our government buys "stuff", and stuff rolls out of vogue in the field and then the dilemma occurs - for that I have two examples from my own military base I have worked at for 26 years.

A rule the Feds live by is an EMPTY BUILDING ( example the power plant I started at and worked in for 13 years ) was decommissioned - it was stripped of all reusable and spare parts and equipment and there is no power, no water - nothing as far as services in this building.  BUT, this building has a ANNUAL COST because it exists, even though NOTHING is done to keep it from literally falling down. It has cost to "operate" because of ONE REASON - it exists.

This is the same fore all equipment trickled down to local police, if not at least to Staties. Getting it out of the Fed's hands STOP the cost of possessing these items. It's like owning a great Dane, costs a fortune to feed it, so give it to you neighbors and it's food cost can go to the electric bill.

The second example was in 1998 the base's admin building was slated for total refurbishment, and it was at nearly 1.5 million - a complete refurb with several hundred huge windows. At the same time, the same Planning and Estimators decided that the building wasn't worth refurbishing and it would be cheaper to MOVE the admin operation to another building repaired two years earlier, like dominoes people and jobs were moved building to building throughout the base.

So.... The Refurbished admin building sat empty for several months until finally one week, all the new windows were removed, other things inside I'm sure were taken out and reallocated THEN the building was torn down - because the cost of having this empty windowless building was too costly to have empty, especially on the huge section of land it took up. Total time from refurbish to rubble 5 to 6 months.

MY POINT - the Feds have chosen the path of "It is NOT cheaper to keep her" they give away stuff to states, and now it's the states problem, and they likely try to spread it out where best needed - hopefully troopers, National Guard and LIKE YOU, I think my local police having a tank and a dozen 50 cal equipped Humvees is not what any of us need. Pretty much everywhere you can have this equipment delivered with the people trained to use them in desperate situations. But I don't think any of this will STOP a police state. And I stick by my belief that you will see such equipment ALWAYS brought out during times when race haters want to rile citizens and yes thugs from neighboring towns there to stir the pot - it is inevitable.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2015, 12:34:47 pm »

Quote
MY POINT - the Feds have chosen the path of "It is NOT cheaper to keep her" they give away stuff to states, and now it's the states problem, and they likely try to spread it out where best needed - hopefully troopers, National Guard and LIKE YOU, I think my local police having a tank and a dozen 50 cal equipped Humvees is not what any of us need.

a lot of it comes down to Boys and Their Toys.   :wink:  All this equipment requires maintenance and training to use.  I think you'll find that the craze will not last when the bills start coming in. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 01:00:14 pm »

Quote
MY POINT - the Feds have chosen the path of "It is NOT cheaper to keep her" they give away stuff to states, and now it's the states problem, and they likely try to spread it out where best needed - hopefully troopers, National Guard and LIKE YOU, I think my local police having a tank and a dozen 50 cal equipped Humvees is not what any of us need.

a lot of it comes down to Boys and Their Toys.   :wink:  All this equipment requires maintenance and training to use.  I think you'll find that the craze will not last when the bills start coming in. 



Kathy,
That just means that they have more reasons to raise our taxes. That is not a problem as far as congress is concerned, nor the white house.
Jim
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Overview - here we debate or dicuss the laws of our Repupublic.
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 03:38:00 pm »
I tend to agree with MB. All of the Bill of Rights are co-dependant... but I think I would say that the 2nd amendment gives the constitution its teeth. The entire reason for the second part of the second amendment is because our founders knew that someday our government would become tyrannical again and we would need to fight another revolution. I hope that it happens in the ballot box.
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