Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: northwesterner on June 22, 2019, 08:37:12 pm

Title: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on June 22, 2019, 08:37:12 pm
Hi All
President Trump seems to have pulled back on his threat to Iran or is this part of his strategy to unnerve them? Will we be heading for another oil crisis like 1973?
Northwesterner
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Acebird on June 23, 2019, 08:33:02 am
Trump is predictable.  He threatens and then cowers.  He has no military expertise nor does he have any advisers with military expertise and he wouldn't take their advise if he did.  This country is in the worst shape that it has ever been for defense let alone offence.  What Trump has is constant gibbering in his ear from right wing war mongers.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on June 23, 2019, 08:55:49 am
Acebird

It seems as though he is keeping them on edge wondering what is going to happen next. Also he is reaching out to N Korea with his recent letter, in that case jaw jaw is better than war war. So lets give him some credit. Lets hope the same may apply with Iran. Unfortunately in Iran's case he has Israel prodding his backside.

northwesterner
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Acebird on June 23, 2019, 09:19:18 am
Israel is no different then the US.  Not all the people in Israel are right wingers.  Very few are looking for war.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 23, 2019, 11:54:49 am
Ace,
I really don?t believe you believe all that nonsense. President Trump made numerous promises during his campaign and has completed many of them and has drastically improved our economy beyond our wildest dreams. Lowest unemployment since the 60s. Major tax reform. I was shocked when I did my taxes this year. I had to keep questioning my tax accountant over and over again, literally.
He has made America great again and saved us from Hillary finishing up obama?s Socialist/communistic dream for America.
My one brother is just like you. He is a contractor and was making great money until 2008, lost a half million dollar home and was barely making ends meet until 2016. Now he has more work than he can handle but he is still a blind democratic believing all of the media nonsense.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: iddee on June 23, 2019, 01:04:23 pm
Trump makes promises to Iran, Mexico, China as to what he will do unless they comply with his wishes. Yes, he backs off when they comply. He told Iran they will not be spanked. If they hit the US or it's properties, he will destroy them. I think he will do it. He told Mexico to stop the caravan or he would install tariffs. They sent out their national guard to stop the caravan, and are now offering illegals flights home for $1.00. I didn't think even Ace was dense enough to not see that.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on June 23, 2019, 04:11:13 pm
Trump makes promises to Iran, Mexico, China as to what he will do unless they comply with his wishes. Yes, he backs off when they comply. He told Iran they will not be spanked. If they hit the US or it's properties, he will destroy them. I think he will do it. He told Mexico to stop the caravan or he would install tariffs. They sent out their national guard to stop the caravan, and are now offering illegals flights home for $1.00. I didn't think even Ace was dense enough to not see that.
The carrot and stick will work but you need to use good judgment of when and where to apply. As to destroying them I don't see that happening, to 'destroy' a country these days is not an option the consequences for the US could be horrific. Terrorists have learned how to use planes to destroy buildings, if they get hold of chemicals/bugs it would not bear thinking about. Much better a very severe rap to the knuckles. 

northwesterner
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Acebird on June 24, 2019, 08:10:40 am
What Iddee doesn't understand is that unemployment figures don't mean much to the middle class that is working two jobs and can barely live like their parents did.  Funneling money to the rich does not help those that are not rich.
In every deal that Trump has made with our ENEMIES he has given away control and got nothing and put us in a future bind.
Jim, your brother is living in the real world.  You are not.  You and me are protected from the ups and downs because we are on government entitlements.  That is until the darn fool makes a mess of that.  Your windfall tax relief will turn into a hole in your pocket in just a few years so I would hold back on the glee.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 25, 2019, 07:01:38 am
Trump makes promises to Iran, Mexico, China as to what he will do unless they comply with his wishes. Yes, he backs off when they comply. He told Iran they will not be spanked. If they hit the US or it's properties, he will destroy them. I think he will do it. He told Mexico to stop the caravan or he would install tariffs. They sent out their national guard to stop the caravan, and are now offering illegals flights home for $1.00. I didn't think even Ace was dense enough to not see that.
The carrot and stick will work but you need to use good judgment of when and where to apply. As to destroying them I don't see that happening, to 'destroy' a country these days is not an option the consequences for the US could be horrific. Terrorists have learned how to use planes to destroy buildings, if they get hold of chemicals/bugs it would not bear thinking about. Much better a very severe rap to the knuckles. 

northwesterner
But what do you do if they don't give a dannn about the stick or knuckles? Just back off and write a letter?

cider
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 25, 2019, 03:42:06 pm
Cider, good question.  Iranians believe that the Creator is own their side, further the US is the great devil.  Those people don?t care if they live or die, life has only one meaning, one purpose and USA is not part of the their divine purpose, we are infidels which the word originated from infidelity.  Not a nice word.  So they chant DEATH TO AMERICA in the streets and they really mean it.  A rap to the knee will only strengthen.

We are not considered people, we, the USA, are the devils children in their eyes.
Van
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on June 25, 2019, 04:28:29 pm
Cider, good question.  Iranians believe that the Creator is own their side, further the US is the great devil.  Those people don?t care if they live or die, life has only one meaning, one purpose and USA is not part of the their divine purpose, we are infidels which the word originated from infidelity.  Not a nice word.  So they chant DEATH TO AMERICA in the streets and they really mean it.  A rap to the knee will only strengthen.

We are not considered people, we, the USA, are the devils children in their eyes.
Van
So do you believe you should act like the devils children as President Trump suggests? And destroy the country and its innocent people?

Northwesterner
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 25, 2019, 04:48:28 pm
Destroy a country, that is insane.  No I do not believe that.  I do not wish harm to any country, but realize history informs us the future is otherwise.  What I do believe is: there is PARADOX with Iran.  Unfortunately sometimes a person has to be killed to prevent further killing.

As far back in time as a person wishes, Cain will always be there.  And if Cain lives, he will walk into the desert, he will create cities which become a country, which chat in the streets DEATH TO ABLE.

BTW what innocence people?  The innocent people you are referring are chanting DEATH to my country.  Does that sound innocent????  Wishing death to 350 million folks?  Think of who is innocent here???  You have it backwards.  Maybe if they were chanty death to the U.K., you might develope a different attitude without bias, see the light and stand with your ally, directing guilt where it properly belongs,,,,,,to those wishing DEATH to 350 million innocent peace loving folks, my country the great USA.
Blessings
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: iddee on June 25, 2019, 05:18:35 pm
Northwesterner, do you really consider people to be innocent when they chant in the streets and then go home and pray for the annihilation of all the people of another country? I wouldn't. I do think it is OK for us to kill any and all people who are wanting to and trying to kill us.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 25, 2019, 05:28:02 pm
Cider, good question.  Iranians believe that the Creator is own their side, further the US is the great devil.  Those people don?t care if they live or die, life has only one meaning, one purpose and USA is not part of the their divine purpose, we are infidels which the word originated from infidelity.  Not a nice word.  So they chant DEATH TO AMERICA in the streets and they really mean it.  A rap to the knee will only strengthen.

We are not considered people, we, the USA, are the devils children in their eyes.
Van
So do you believe you should act like the devils children as  President Trump suggests? And destroy the country and its innocent people?

Northwesterner

What happen NW:  the USA was your ally in WW1, again in WW2 we came to your aid.  My own close family paid with limb and life to come to your aid.  Aren?t we still your friend?  I guarantee you, if anybody messes with the UK, the USA would be there for you.  We were in the past, we would be in the future if needed.  Aren?t we friends anymore???
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 26, 2019, 02:41:00 am
Trump is predictable.  He threatens and then cowers.  He has no military expertise nor does he have any advisers with military expertise and he wouldn't take their advise if he did.  This country is in the worst shape that it has ever been for defense let alone offence.  What Trump has is constant gibbering in his ear from right wing war mongers.

''nor does he have any advisers with military expertise ''

No because is it possible that the last democratic REGIME, fired or ran off many of the expert generals, admirals, etc. who did not play ball?  You can bet your boots that things are in order now! We have a real Commander-In-Chief in office, who knows how to get things done, and says he loves this country, and is proving it.  Who in just 2.5 years after being sworn in  is keeping his promises in spite of all the odds that are opposed and against him, yet, the opposition seem to hate him even the more for it? Even the more? Perhaps the opposition does not want America to prosper, perhaps the opposition does not want America to have a strong economy and wants to keep our citizens both majority and minority
 oppressed? Perhaps the opposition likes it better when things go the way of Venezuela and continue to elect bucket heads?
Hum
 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on June 26, 2019, 05:42:06 am
Destroy a country, that is insane.  No I do not believe that.  I do not wish harm to any country, but realize history informs us the future is otherwise.  What I do believe is: there is PARADOX with Iran.  Unfortunately sometimes a person has to be killed to prevent further killing.

As far back in time as a person wishes, Cain will always be there.  And if Cain lives, he will walk into the desert, he will create cities which become a country, which chat in the streets DEATH TO ABLE.

BTW what innocence people?  The innocent people you are referring are chanting DEATH to my country.  Does that sound innocent????  Wishing death to 350 million folks?  Think of who is innocent here???  You have it backwards.  Maybe if they were chanty death to the U.K., you might develope a different attitude without bias, see the light and stand with your ally, directing guilt where it properly belongs,,,,,,to those wishing DEATH to 350 million innocent peace loving folks, my country the great USA.
Blessings
Do you seriously believe the normal man in the street be it Tehrān or Atlanta want to destroy each others country? It is politicians and religious leaders who brain wash certain elements of the population to agree to that. It should always be more jaw jaw than war war first.

N/W
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: iddee on June 26, 2019, 07:49:25 am
Normal man in the street??
Yes, if they believe the quran, whether in Tehran or Atlanta.
The jaw jaw has been used, and is still going on. The war war may be the only successful thing left. I hope not, but if it is, I would like to see more unmanned air power used, rather than 55,000 dead Americans, unknown number of English, S. Koreans, Aussies, and others, and many thousands more wounded, like 'nam. I think we should stay out of the country and let the missiles and bombs do the work, if war is the only answer.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on June 26, 2019, 12:45:22 pm
Lol.  I am going to regret this, I know it!

What people don't seem to get about Trump is that he is not after fighting with people by way of war.  He believes and has always believed that economic pressure and promise of reward is the way to go.  He has not gotten us into more conflicts as the last president did.  He has not expanded our involvement in things as the last president did except to bomb the crap out of ISIS in Syria.  This appears to have been an effective strategy.  Trump is far less likely to resort to force than many of our presidents of the past, including the last one.

Iran is run by Islamist ideologues of the worst type.  Even other countries of the same Muslim sect do not agree with what Iran believes.  They are 12ers, but unlike others who believe as they do, they believe that Iran has been chosen to usher in the Mahdi.  What does the Mahdi need to appear?  Chaos, war, famine, death.  If you look at some of the videos that have come out of Iran, they show the world on fire.  Not only do they believe they have this special place in prophecy, but they believe the Mahdi is here and only needs the right conditions to appear.  That adds a little urgency to the whole chaos thing.

In 2009 our government was approached by Iranians who wanted to overthrow the nutters running the country.  Not only did the Obama admin fail to help, they would not even verbally support them.  It might have been the last best chance to do something, but we failed.  Obama had a thing for Islamists.  He was better at gun running to ISIS that supporting reform.

Do most of the people of Iran want war?  I doubt it.  If their government does something stupid they are going to get war.  Pretty sure in any war most of the population doesn't want it coming to them, but so it goes. 
Brits should know that better than most.

I have said before and will say again; if there ever was a country that would use nukes when they got them, Iran is that country. 

BTW, did you guys know that there are sunset clauses in the Iran deal with no plan for dealing with what they do after those clauses kick in?  They kick in in 2025, 28, and 30, and will allow Iran to carry on as they were if we are working on the assumption that they are now complying.  For a country that plays the long game, this was an easy get for them.  Billions of dollars and lifting sanctions and they just have to be careful for a few years. 




Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: CoolBees on June 26, 2019, 02:33:05 pm
Kathy, I wish I was that articulate. Very well said!
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 26, 2019, 08:02:42 pm
Good post Kathy.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 26, 2019, 08:17:21 pm
Kathy you are a learned Lady.  Yes, Iran believes the 3 spiritual warriors, indestructible warriors, will appear, destroy all non Muslims on the planet.  Then and only then will there be peace on earth when we are all killed off leaving the shining believers behind.

In the Koran, all infidels must be destroyed for peace on earth.  Some crafty Muslims will point to an early saying in the Koran which say peace to thy neighbor, however the Koran states in the later part that infidels must be destroyed and further states the later part of the Koran has President, authorities  when conflicts appear earlier in the book.

I point this out due to 911, I saw On TV an Arab quoting the earlier peaceful saying in the Koran.  The arab was deliberately misleading all who watched on TV as he made no mention of the fact the later sayings have total authority.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 26, 2019, 10:55:54 pm
Don?t forget Iran took our embassy unarmed employees at gun point and held hostage until Reagan took office.  This action generated the today 12vers which is distinct from the spiritual Twelver, descendent of Mohammed  Kathy talked about.  The Shia, Iran, are the radical ones, supporting the terrorizing extremest that send rockets into Israel and Yemen populated civilian areas.  The Shia, Iran, believe Jesus will assist Mahdi in destroying evil.

The saying from Israel: we protect our children with our rockets whereas hamas protects their rockets with their children.  Hamas surrounds their rockets with their own children so Israel won?t attack.  Israel said, when hamas lives their children as much as we, Israel, do, there will be no more war.  To hamas their own children are expendable.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: vambuli78 on June 29, 2019, 11:26:13 am
Idk politic sometimes making me vomit guys. (
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on June 29, 2019, 11:59:51 am
Quote
Idk politic sometimes making me vomit guys.

I think that happens to all of us!   :grin:
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: van from Arkansas on July 03, 2019, 05:42:41 pm
Don?t forget Iran took our embassy unarmed employees at gun point and held hostage until Reagan took office.  This action generated the today 12vers which is distinct from the spiritual Twelver, descendent of Mohammed  Kathy talked about.  The Shia, Iran, are the radical ones, supporting the terrorizing extremest that send rockets into Israel and Yemen populated civilian areas.  The Shia, Iran, believe Jesus will assist Mahdi in destroying evil.

The saying from Israel: we protect our children with our rockets whereas hamas protects their rockets with their children.  Hamas surrounds their rockets with their own children so Israel won?t attack.  Israel said, when hamas loves their children as much as we, Israel, do, there will be no more war.  To hamas their own children are expendable.

Correct to my spelling: hamas lives their children corrected to hamas LOVES
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 03, 2019, 07:10:19 pm
Don?t forget Iran took our embassy unarmed employees at gun point and held hostage until Reagan took office.  This action generated the today 12vers which is distinct from the spiritual Twelver, descendent of Mohammed  Kathy talked about.  The Shia, Iran, are the radical ones, supporting the terrorizing extremest that send rockets into Israel and Yemen populated civilian areas.  The Shia, Iran, believe Jesus will assist Mahdi in destroying evil.

The saying from Israel: we protect our children with our rockets whereas hamas protects their rockets with their children.  Hamas surrounds their rockets with their own children so Israel won?t attack.  Israel said, when hamas lives their children as much as we, Israel, do, there will be no more war.  To hamas their own children are expendable.
I think that is probably correct but the nagging doubt is.... if I was up against such a sophisticated army, navy and air-force that uses overwhelming indiscriminate force what would I/you do? Why can't they just talk to each other!
N/West
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 07, 2019, 09:30:39 pm
Quote
if I was up against such a sophisticated army, navy and air-force that uses overwhelming indiscriminate force what would I/you do? Why can't they just talk to each other!

who has a sophisticated military that uses indiscriminate force? 

They can't talk to each other because one side is sworn to annihilate the other side. (assuming you are talking about Israel and Iran)

If you look at those countries that have talked with and come to an agreement with Israel, there is peace.  In no case has Israel been the aggressor in any of the conflicts other than against the Brits, and even that was limited. 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 08, 2019, 06:03:22 pm
Normal man in the street??
Yes, if they believe the quran, whether in Tehran or Atlanta.
The jaw jaw has been used, and is still going on. The war war may be the only successful thing left. I hope not, but if it is, I would like to see more unmanned air power used, rather than 55,000 dead Americans, unknown number of English, S. Koreans, Aussies, and others, and many thousands more wounded, like 'nam. I think we should stay out of the country and let the missiles and bombs do the work, if war is the only answer.
If you believe using bombs drones etc is the answer ask the Israelis. They have a superior military to the Arabs, the trouble is the underdog then reverts to terrorist acts, as in planes, trains and buildings in someone's homeland. Its the syndrome of "I've got nothing to loose, I may as well go out with a bang"   
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 08, 2019, 06:32:20 pm
Quote
If you believe using bombs drones etc is the answer ask the Israelis. They have a superior military to the Arabs, the trouble is the underdog then reverts to terrorist acts, as in planes, trains and buildings in someone's homeland. Its the syndrome of "I've got nothing to loose, I may as well go out with a bang"   

I think you have it a little backward.  The "underdog" as you call them is not resorting to terrorist attacks.  It is what they do by default.  The fact that the Isralies have not wiped them out is a testament to their restraint.  No other country would put up with constant attacks and not answer with overwhelming force at some point. 

Israel is in their homeland and they have a right to protect it both as a matter of historical occupation and international law.  The fact that other countries don't like them and don't think they have a right to exist, might be the first place to start if you think you want peace in the area. 

Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 08, 2019, 06:38:05 pm
Quote
if I was up against such a sophisticated army, navy and air-force that uses overwhelming indiscriminate force what would I/you do? Why can't they just talk to each other!

who has a sophisticated military that uses indiscriminate force? 

They can't talk to each other because one side is sworn to annihilate the other side. (assuming you are talking about Israel and Iran)

If you look at those countries that have talked with and come to an agreement with Israel, there is peace.  In no case has Israel been the aggressor in any of the conflicts other than against the Brits, and even that was limited.
So your greatest ally in the middle east had a Prime minister Menachem Begin who was a terrorist that hung serving British soldiers. The Israeli government should contemplate the meaning of 'Pot and Black' when referring to terrorists.
No not Iran. Israel complies with International Law? What about the settlements on the west bank?
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 08, 2019, 07:51:05 pm
Quote
So your greatest ally in the middle east had a Prime minister Menachem Begin who was a terrorist that hung serving British soldiers. The Israeli government should contemplate the meaning of 'Pot and Black' when referring to terrorists.
No not Iran. Israel complies with International Law? What about the settlements on the west bank?

My sympathy is with Israel.  the Brits didn't keep up their end of the bargain so the Isralies had a few independent actions.  Since I belong to a nation that did the same, I can't find fault with them for what they did.   :wink:

As for the West Bank, it should never have been opened to "Palestinians" after Israel was attacked in '67.  Israel breaks no law by building there.  They are legally the occupying force in the area.  There are many more "Palestinians" in the West Bank than Isralies.  If Israel had not been attacked in '67, that area would have been administered by Jordan, but the Arabs lost, so...

I think it was a mistake for Israel to let any of them stay in the area, or to re-enter Jerusalem until the Arab countries recognized Israels right to exist and swore off attacking them. 



Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: iddee on July 08, 2019, 08:27:47 pm
""If you believe using bombs drones etc is the answer ask the Israelis. They have a superior military to the Arabs, the trouble is the underdog then reverts to terrorist acts, as in planes, trains and buildings in someone's homeland. Its the syndrome of "I've got nothing to loose, I may as well go out with a bang" "

As Kathy said, you have that backwards. If they had not begin with terrorist attacks, we would have no need for war.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 09, 2019, 03:43:38 am

My sympathy is with Israel.  the Brits didn't keep up their end of the bargain so the Isralies had a few independent actions.  Since I belong to a nation that did the same, I can't find fault with them for what they did.

So you hang two serving soldiers, then hang the decomposing bodies from trees, booby-trapping them with anti personnel mines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: sawdstmakr on July 09, 2019, 08:01:57 am
That was 72 years ago. None of the people involved are alive today. What is your point?
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 09, 2019, 08:30:51 am
That was 72 years ago. None of the people involved are alive today. What is your point?
Jim Altmiller

The point being, the government still has the same ethos as the original terrorists.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: iddee on July 09, 2019, 09:25:14 am
So do you condemn all countries that have a few terrorists equally, or do you pick and choose which ones to condemn?
It wasn't the Israeli gov. that did that.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 09, 2019, 11:10:13 am
Quote
The point being, the government still has the same ethos as the original terrorists.

That is a statement that demands evidence. 

I understand that there were things done then that we do not condone today.  There were things done in every era and every war that we look back on and do not condone in light of todays standards.  as Iddee points out, that was many years ago. 

I submit that if the ethos had not changed, the "Palestinians" would be trying to exist on a sheet of glass, as would Iraq, Syria, and Iran.  Again, no other country would suffer the repeated attacks and show as much restraint as Israel does, having the capabilities that Israel has. 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Ben Framed on July 09, 2019, 11:29:04 am
Quote
The point being, the government still has the same ethos as the original terrorists.

That is a statement that demands evidence. 

I understand that there were things done then that we do not condone today.  There were things done in every era and every war that we look back on and do not condone in light of todays standards.  as Iddee points out, that was many years ago. 

I submit that if the ethos had not changed, the "Palestinians" would be trying to exist on a sheet of glass, as would Iraq, Syria, and Iran.  Again, no other country would suffer the repeated attacks and show as much restraint as Israel does, having the capabilities that Israel has.

Good point Kathy Israel has been very patient, especially considering what the have suffered for the past 4000 years.  As a friend recently said, For 4000 years the enemy and all hell have seek to wipe the children Israel off the face of the earth.  The Pharos tried to drive them into the sea. The Assyrians tried to desecrate them., Babylon tried to obliterate them. Rome tried to crush them. Hitler tried to annihilate them. Stalin tried to oppress them. The terrorist have sworn they will  destroy them from the face of the earth. The Pharos have gone, The Assyrians have perished, Babylon has fallen, Rome has crumbled, Hitler is gone, Stalin is no more, and terroir shall be no more but the Nation of Israel lives, because The God of Israel lives and the Messiah of Israel lives. Believe it or not.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 09, 2019, 12:27:14 pm
Quote
Good point Kathy Israel has been very patient, especially considering what the have suffered for the past 4000 years.

Just sticking with the 20th century they won multiple wars started against them with the idea of wiping them out.  They took territories that they rightfully won, and then gave back many of them.  They did not push their advantage and go after the people who started the wars against them. 

There are several million people around them who are happy to be used as tools, but who should thank God every day that they have not been wiped out. 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 09, 2019, 01:00:06 pm
There are several million people around them who are happy to be used as tools, but who should thank God every day that they have not been wiped out.

And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......
You may well wonder why some politicians have said the best thing for peace in the middle east is......relocate Israel into the US. Bit extreme I would think. The phrase "wishing it on my worst enemy" springs to mind.
northwesterner           
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: iddee on July 09, 2019, 02:14:21 pm
Do all those half sentences have a meaning?
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 09, 2019, 02:30:14 pm
Do all those half sentences have a meaning?
Yes. Think why they may not want to 'wipe out' the people around them. Also "think about the other half sentences"
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Ben Framed on July 09, 2019, 02:49:33 pm
And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......

When would there have ever been a better time, or when will it be more in their best interest than the times Kathy spoke of if that was there goal? Your reasoning does not make sense to me from this standpoint, perhaps you can clarify?
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 09, 2019, 03:34:26 pm
Quote
And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......
You may well wonder why some politicians have said the best thing for peace in the middle east is......relocate Israel into the US. Bit extreme I would think. The phrase "wishing it on my worst enemy" springs to mind.

The Isralies are in their homeland.  Why on earth should they be relocated anywhere but where they belong? 

Why would Israel not wipe out those around them?  Well, I have never heard Israel call for the annihilation of another nation.  Perhaps their ethos is different from those around them?

You should go back and look at the original UN mandates for Palestine.   Go back even farther and you have the Balfour Declaration.   The Arabs created this problem, they use the "Palestinians" as tools to whip up stupid people, and they have no interest in solving the problem.  If they had followed the mandate instead of attacking Israel and losing, everyone would have what they say they want.

Most of the so-called Palestinians have no historical claim to the area.  Many are the descendants of terrorist kicked out of countries like Lebanon.  Arafat, as an example, was from Egypt. 
The people have been happy to be used and to put into power people who took what they could get and left the people in poverty in spite of the fact that billions have been donated to help them.  Materials for building have been used for terrorist tunnels.  Leaders have taken the cash instead of feeding the people.  They use civilians as shields for their missile launch sites.
There is little to redeem at least the leadership, and perhaps the people since they do not have the sense to choose better.

On the other hand, Israel is a constitutional democracy and over 20% of their population are not Jews.  Many are Arab Muslims.  Citizens and legal residents all have the same rights and Muslims serve in their government. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

Let me know when the surrounding governments extend the same to Jews. 


Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 09, 2019, 04:56:07 pm
KathyP
There are several million people around them who are happy to be used as tools, but who should thank God every day that they have not been wiped out.
Why do you think this has not happened? What is the one reason they could not do it? After all as you say they have the capability, denied for decades for the convenience of the western powers. The clue is the holocaust.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 09, 2019, 05:35:33 pm
Quote
And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......
You may well wonder why some politicians have said the best thing for peace in the middle east is......relocate Israel into the US. Bit extreme I would think. The phrase "wishing it on my worst enemy" springs to mind.

The Isralies are in their homeland.  Why on earth should they be relocated anywhere but where they belong? 

Why would Israel not wipe out those around them?  Well, I have never heard Israel call for the annihilation of another nation.  Perhaps their ethos is different from those around them?

You should go back and look at the original UN mandates for Palestine.   Go back even farther and you have the Balfour Declaration.   The Arabs created this problem, they use the "Palestinians" as tools to whip up stupid people, and they have no interest in solving the problem.  If they had followed the mandate instead of attacking Israel and losing, everyone would have what they say they want.

Most of the so-called Palestinians have no historical claim to the area.  Many are the descendants of terrorist kicked out of countries like Lebanon.  Arafat, as an example, was from Egypt. 
The people have been happy to be used and to put into power people who took what they could get and left the people in poverty in spite of the fact that billions have been donated to help them.  Materials for building have been used for terrorist tunnels.  Leaders have taken the cash instead of feeding the people.  They use civilians as shields for their missile launch sites.
There is little to redeem at least the leadership, and perhaps the people since they do not have the sense to choose better.

On the other hand, Israel is a constitutional democracy and over 20% of their population are not Jews.  Many are Arab Muslims.  Citizens and legal residents all have the same rights and Muslims serve in their government. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

Let me know when the surrounding governments extend the same to Jews.
"The Isralies are in their homeland.  Why on earth should they be relocated anywhere but where they belong" 
I think the statement was rhetorical! not to be taken seriously!!! although I suppose you have the room, especially in Oregon.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 09, 2019, 05:55:30 pm
Quote
After all as you say they have the capability, denied for decades for the convenience of the western powers. The clue is the holocaust.

Actually, the clue is that they are not the same as those who attack them.  There is nothing in their belief system that says convert or die.  There is nothing in their legal writings that say others do not have the right to exist.  Their religion does not tell them that one of the few ways to paradise it martyrdom.  They do not scream from the synagog that others must cease to exist. 

There is this western idea that everyone in the world is basically the same and all people want the same things.  This is untrue, and we fail to understand that at our own peril. 

Imagine what the Palestinians could have if they put the same energy they use hating Israel into making their own place and people better.  They have had billions of dollars and aid to do it but have chosen another path.  Choices have consequences, and they are very lucky that Israel has not given them what they are due.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: incognito on July 10, 2019, 01:06:32 am
Go back even farther and you have the Balfour Declaration.


Per wikipedia, which I assume is reasonably accurate. Please let me know if there are any substantive errors.

The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during World War I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) announcing support for the establishment of a  "national home for the Jewish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) people" in Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)), then an Ottoman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) region with a small minority Jewish population. It read:

>His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.


The declaration was contained in a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_Foreign_Affairs) Arthur Balfour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Balfour) to Lord Rothschild (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Rothschild,_2nd_Baron_Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Jews), for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Federation_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland). The text of the declaration was published in the press on 9 November 1917.

Immediately following their declaration of war on the Ottoman Empire in November 1914, the British War Cabinet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_War_Cabinet) began to consider the future of Palestine; within two months a memorandum was circulated to the Cabinet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Palestine) by a Zionist Cabinet member, Herbert Samuel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Samuel,_1st_Viscount_Samuel), proposing the support of Zionist ambitions in order to enlist the support of Jews in the wider war.

So let me know if I got this right.

Who is surprised?
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: CoolBees on July 10, 2019, 01:44:52 am
Well Ingognito - from the history books I've read, there's just a wee bit more to the story than your Wikipedia posting - from all sides of the equation... a few thousand years more to the story.

I have a rather large library that I've collected thru all my life, and I've read every book in it - multiple views on each subject. The majority are on history. Your posting is "1 small side of a very small slice of the total story ...

I'm not jewish - and I feel no special obligation to the jews. ...but I abhor "revisionist history". The total truth matters imho.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: incognito on July 10, 2019, 02:22:01 am
Well Ingognito - from the history books I've read, there's just a wee bit more to the story than your Wikipedia posting - from all sides of the equation... a few thousand years more to the story.

I have a rather large library that I've collected thru all my life, and I've read every book in it - multiple views on each subject. The majority are on history. Your posting is "1 small side of a very small slice of the total story ...

I'm not jewish - and I feel no special obligation to the jews. ...but I abhor "revisionist history". The total truth matters imho.

Just sayin'.
I just spent the last hour reading up on its history, much like the rest of the world's where territory gets assumed by one government and then another and another and so on.
I too am not taking sides.
My point is a bunch of outsiders tried to decide what was best for the locals.
My further reading about the Balfour Declaration says that it's failure was predicted at the start.

Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on July 10, 2019, 05:06:14 am
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during World War I. A means to an end.
Pre Balfour the British government were considered to be the worlds policemen and so felt they could implement their will. Not so! as we have now seen. Probably the same thing will happen to the US re lots of conflicts. As we, the UK have been told lots of times "what goes around comes around"
We can be blamed quite rightly for lots of things that have gone wrong in the world. Ignorance was bliss :embarassed: but maybe there is a lesson to be learned in all of this, as long as it is recognised. 
cider 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Ben Framed on July 10, 2019, 01:17:20 pm
What are the odds of any people that had been scattered all over the world, wandering for almost two thousand years, brought back into their homeland against all odds,  after having almost lost their native language, and that restored along with their homeland. Has this ever happened anywhere in history either ancient or modern?
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on July 10, 2019, 02:42:40 pm
What are the odds of any people that had been scattered all over the world, wandering for almost two thousand years, brought back into their homeland against all odds,  after having almost lost their native language, and that restored along with their homeland. Has this ever happened anywhere in history either ancient or modern?
And your point is ? Would it have happened without Balfour?
cider
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Ben Framed on July 10, 2019, 02:58:07 pm
What are the odds of any people that had been scattered all over the world, wandering for almost two thousand years, brought back into their homeland against all odds,  after having almost lost their native language, and that restored along with their homeland. Has this ever happened anywhere in history either ancient or modern?
And your point is ? Would it have happened without Balfour?
cider

It is simply amazing to me.  I will ask the same question to you all, Would it have happened without Balfour?
Phillip
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 10, 2019, 07:56:56 pm
I am not sure  Balfour is relevant as a matter of law.  It was a statement of intent.  What is relevant are the UN mandates on Palestine and the way they were or were not implemented.

I am not a huge UN fan, but that was a more than equitable division of land.  Jews had already been moving back and buying land.  There were not that many indigenous people there.  Most were either farming land for absent owners, or were nomadic.  As Jews bought and improved land, areas that had been useless became productive. 

If the Muslim countries surrounding what was to become Israel had implemented the deal instead of attacking, everyone would have had their space,  and the larger part would have become a country for the existing residents who did not want to be part of Israel. 

Yes the territory was managed by the Brits and it was their failure to allow self-rule as they had promised that caused the Isralies to attack them, but that was not what led to what exists now.  These so-called Palestinians are the people no one wants.  The Arab and Persian countries don't want them and don't want to take care of them.  Their use is as a tool to stir up international angst and be thrown occasionally at Israel. 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 10, 2019, 08:00:34 pm
Quote
Would it have happened without Balfour?

The same thing that happened with it.  Nothing came of it at the time. 

This is what mattered.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/maps/pages/1947%20un%20partition%20plan.aspx

https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-Nations-Resolution-181
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: northwesterner on July 12, 2019, 03:29:01 pm
Destroy a country, that is insane.  No I do not believe that.  I do not wish harm to any country, but realize history informs us the future is otherwise.  What I do believe is: there is PARADOX with Iran.  Unfortunately sometimes a person has to be killed to prevent further killing.

As far back in time as a person wishes, Cain will always be there.  And if Cain lives, he will walk into the desert, he will create cities which become a country, which chat in the streets DEATH TO ABLE.

BTW what innocence people?  The innocent people you are referring are chanting DEATH to my country.  Does that sound innocent????  Wishing death to 350 million folks?  Think of who is innocent here???  You have it backwards.  Maybe if they were chanty death to the U.K., you might develope a different attitude without bias, see the light and stand with your ally, directing guilt where it properly belongs,,,,,,to those wishing DEATH to 350 million innocent peace loving folks, my country the great USA.
Blessings
Do you seriously believe the normal man in the street be it Tehrān or Atlanta want to destroy each others country? It is politicians and religious leaders who brain wash certain elements of the population to agree to that. It should always be more jaw jaw than war war first.

N/W
President Trump has now started trying to form a 'coalition' to police the Straits of Homuz is this the start of another middle east war? The US is self sufficient in oil not so the rest of the world. If this part of the world is involved in a conflagration
including Saudi Arabia,  Kuwait, Iran and Iraq what will this do to the worlds economy? Boost Russia, Venezuela who would want that?
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 12, 2019, 11:16:07 pm
Quote
President Trump has now started trying to form a 'coalition' to police the Straits of Homuz is this the start of another middle east war? The US is self sufficient in oil not so the rest of the world. If this part of the world is involved in a conflagration
including Saudi Arabia,  Kuwait, Iran and Iraq what will this do to the worlds economy? Boost Russia, Venezuela who would want that?

You may not realize this, but we have been protecting that transit area for decades.  What Trump would like is for those who have an interest in getting their stuff through, to step up and help out. 
What does it do for Russia when Germany and others in the EU are making deals with Russia for natural gas?  It makes Russia rich, but worse, it makes those countries dependant on Russia who has already shown they have no problem turning off the gas if they are unhappy. 

Venezuela can't even pump their oil out of the ground because they destroyed their oil companies.  IF they ever get it together, the country will need that oil and help to rebuild infrastructure.  We will give them that help.

On the one hand, the world says we are too powerful and too quick to be the policeman of the world.  On the other hand, you want us to protect you and your shipping. 
Tell you what, if these leftists in our country get their way, you will have to figure out how to protect yourself because we'll have about as much of a military as you all do and it won't be enough to do what we have been doing. 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on July 13, 2019, 07:42:25 pm
Quote
President Trump has now started trying to form a 'coalition' to police the Straits of Homuz is this the start of another middle east war? The US is self sufficient in oil not so the rest of the world. If this part of the world is involved in a conflagration
including Saudi Arabia,  Kuwait, Iran and Iraq what will this do to the worlds economy? Boost Russia, Venezuela who would want that?

You may not realize this, but we have been protecting that transit area for decades.  What Trump would like is for those who have an interest in getting their stuff through, to step up and help out. 
What does it do for Russia when Germany and others in the EU are making deals with Russia for natural gas?  It makes Russia rich, but worse, it makes those countries dependant on Russia who has already shown they have no problem turning off the gas if they are unhappy. 

Venezuela can't even pump their oil out of the ground because they destroyed their oil companies.  IF they ever get it together, the country will need that oil and help to rebuild infrastructure.  We will give them that help.

On the one hand, the world says we are too powerful and too quick to be the policeman of the world.  On the other hand, you want us to protect you and your shipping. 
Tell you what, if these leftists in our country get their way, you will have to figure out how to protect yourself because we'll have about as much of a military as you all do and it won't be enough to do what we have been doing.
And why should that be a bad thing from both points of view? From the tone of your post isn't that what you really want? introspective isolationism. You have for decades been paying the world by various means for the things you want at a price you want to pay May be your self sufficient friends in the backwoods have a point. Until they need a new phone, batteries, light bulbs, medicines et al then it all falls apart. As you know Kathy the world is a complex trading machine. Everything is connected, only overly ambitious politicians screw it up! :sad:
cider
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: kathyp on July 13, 2019, 11:45:06 pm
Quote
You have for decades been paying the world by various means for the things you want at a price you want to pay

No, what we have done since ww2 is make a lot of crap trade deals to help other countries recover.  I assume you are as recovered from ww2 as you are going to get.  We also made crap trade deals with Asia and with our neighbors. 

NAFTA was one of the worst and everyone knew it at the time.

No, I don't want to be isolationist.  I also don't want to be the worlds piggy bank or punching bag.  If you think we are so bad, you do what we have been doing and good luck with that.  You'll have to make some hard choices. 

I think one of the things that set Europeans off about Trump was that he made it clear for many years that he wanted new trade deals and for other countries to at least meet their NATO obligations.  I guess if I was busy passing out subsidized housing, heating, and feeding to everyone and had no money left over, I'd worry about being asked to pay up too. 
If these nutter leftist get what they want, we'll be in the same boat and I guess we'll all figure it out together...while Russia, China, and their surrogates laugh. 
Title: Re: Iran what next?
Post by: Ben Framed on July 14, 2019, 12:49:59 am
Kathy for President 2024!!!!  :wink: