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MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: cidersabuzzin on May 30, 2019, 04:47:19 am

Title: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on May 30, 2019, 04:47:19 am
Sounds as if Mr Trump is in limbo land :smile:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48454682

cider
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on May 30, 2019, 09:52:10 am
What makes you think that. We still have a Republican controlled Senate. Only the senate can impeach the President. You also have to an actual offense.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on May 30, 2019, 11:46:22 am
Muellers job was not to exonerate the president.  It was to find a crime if one existed and then charge or list the crimes for Congress to deal with.  We have good examples of how this works from both the Nixon and Clinton investigations.  In both cases, the crimes were listed and it was left to Congress to deal with it.  People other than the president were charged and taken to court.

In this case, the only crimes having to do with "collusion" or election interference were listed in indictments brought against Russians.  The other crimes were mostly process crimes and had nothing to do with collusion or Russian interference.  The exception was Mannafort, and his crimes had nothing to do with Trump or the election.

In this country, as in your country, there is a presumption of innocence.  If there is not enough evidence to prove a crime you are innocent.  Mueller listed some hearsay stuff that Trump said, but there were no follow on actions, and intent can't be proved.  Obstruction requires intent and action.  One of Clintons crimes was obstruction and Starr showed how he had both intent and action. 

Impeachment can be done absent the above proof.  Even though it is a legal proceeding within Congress and has different rules, it is not a guilty or innocent thing because it requires 2/3rds of the Senate to finalize and remove from office.  Impeachment can pass without the kind of legal proof that is required in court.  In this case, there is no danger of the Senate finding 2/3 of the members to approve it and if Mueller could not find proof of malfeasance, the Congress will not. 

There are at least two other investigations going on into how this all got started and what the FBI and CIA did.  It is likely that the lawbreaking took place within the investigation.  It seems the Brits might have helped.   :wink:  One of the reasons Trump did not earlier declassify the info is that he was asked not to as it would embarrass or impact our relationships with foreign intel agencies.  It's one of those things that ought to have caught the attention of the press, but did not.

There is far more to this story than you are reading in the MSM. 





 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on May 30, 2019, 12:39:39 pm
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Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on May 30, 2019, 01:32:19 pm
It goes with the left getting all they want in court rather than by way of elections or convincing the people that they are right.  If you look at most of the things they have pushed for and gotten, few were done by way of convincing people.  Most were done by finding courts that were sympathetic and suing.

When you force an idea on people rather than convincing them that the idea has merit, you forever cause a point of contention in the population.  They don't care.  It is easier than doing the hard work. 

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on May 30, 2019, 04:26:23 pm
It goes with the left getting all they want in court rather than by way of elections or convincing the people that they are right.  If you look at most of the things they have pushed for and gotten, few were done by way of convincing people.  Most were done by finding courts that were sympathetic and suing.

When you force an idea on people rather than convincing them that the idea has merit, you forever cause a point of contention in the population.  They don't care.  It is easier than doing the hard work.

Yes ... but ... the left can't win in the court of "public opinion", because their policy's are so screwed up.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on May 30, 2019, 04:45:24 pm
Quote
Yes ... but ... the left can't win in the court of "public opinion", because their policy's are so screwed up.

That's true of a lot of things, but not all.  Take gay marriage.  More and more states were allowing it or some form of partner recognition that was equal for tax and legal issues.  Rather than be patient and work on the rest of the population to do the same, they forced it in court.  Now...I don't really care if a state make that kind of choice.  Mine did in spite of a state constitutional amendment that marriage was between a man and a woman.  They chose to ignore the constitution and allow gay marriage.  Even in my state though, it was done by way of the courts and not by a vote of the people.  I DO care that something that was traditionally handled by states, and is not in the Constitution of the US, was taken on by SCOTUS and forced on the entire country.  Abortion is the same thing.  It should have been left to states. 

There is very little in the Constitution that can be interpreted to allow the federal courts or the federal government to interfere in what states decide.  Interestingly, this is the same argument used by states that are allowing legal marijuana even though it is against federal law. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on May 31, 2019, 08:57:34 am
Impeachment is not possible because the republicans have decided to collude with Trump to save their party.  However if the democrats start proceedings and air to the american people like in the Nixon era, Trump will not get re-elected.  Similar to Clinton.  Constitutions don't mean anything anymore.  We are in the era of the gangsters again.  The next big stock market crash will bring back the democracy.  Unfortunately it might not come til after another senseless war.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on May 31, 2019, 10:35:43 am
Ace,
It was a stock market crash that started the destruction of our Republic. It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on May 31, 2019, 03:49:18 pm
Impeachment is not possible because the republicans have decided to collude with Trump to save their party. 

Not to save the party, but to spare the country from certain ruin that was well on its way! Not only from Democrats but Republican Neo-Cons as well.  In other words, (The Swamp) if you will.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on May 31, 2019, 03:59:56 pm
The swamp is alive and well.  I don't see that changing without a revolution.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on May 31, 2019, 04:14:05 pm
It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism.  Capitalism breeds greed.  It works for a while for a few until the bubble burst then you immediately see the capitalist wanting socialism for themselves, no one else because they are basically greedy and don't care about anyone else.  There is no system in the world that can sustain pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Our country grew strong because we had a good balance that is now gone.  What really hurt our country is socialism for the capitalist not socialism for the poor.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on May 31, 2019, 04:43:14 pm
Socialism only works when it's for the can nots. It will never work when it is for the will nots. That's where the dems become the dums.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 01, 2019, 08:30:24 am
Socialism only works when it's for the can nots. It will never work when it is for the will nots. That's where the dems become the dums.
Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 01, 2019, 09:41:00 am
It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism.  Capitalism breeds greed.  It works for a while for a few until the bubble burst then you immediately see the capitalist wanting socialism for themselves, no one else because they are basically greedy and don't care about anyone else.  There is no system in the world that can sustain pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Our country grew strong because we had a good balance that is now gone.  What really hurt our country is socialism for the capitalist not socialism for the poor.

No, our government was set up and based on the principles of Gods Word, though this fact is common knowledge, it is denied, despised, and rejected by many.  Our founding fathers did not hide this fact and made it plain time and time again. A corrupt and godless bunch will take advantage of our type government.

Our Constitution was made only fora moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on June 01, 2019, 09:54:38 am
""Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.""

While I agree with that, I would much rather line the pockets of hard workers who produce, than lazy do nothings that only produce trash for others to clean up.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 01, 2019, 10:23:23 am
""Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.""

While I agree with that, I would much rather line the pockets of hard workers who produce, than lazy do nothings that only produce trash for others to clean up.

Yes they do. Again goes back to the type government that our founding fathers set up. A government created for a moral and religious people. A people who is neither moral nor religious, will reject said principles, therefore playing into the hands of the greedy, the corrupt, and the selfish. Which enables these greedy, corrupt, and selfish, to slowly chisel away chip by chip constantly the good government basics by, opposing forces until one day, we will no longer have what was prepared for us by our founding fathers, which have been under attack lately by the left as a group of white men! These founders were very wise men no matter what there color. Yes, now they are chiseling away at the very founding fathers themselves! Shame
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 01, 2019, 11:32:35 am
""Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.""

While I agree with that, I would much rather line the pockets of hard workers who produce, than lazy do nothings that only produce trash for others to clean up.
There is where we differ.  I do not take a liking to lining anyone's pocket because none of them are hard workers.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 01, 2019, 12:05:21 pm
It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism.  Capitalism breeds greed.  It works for a while for a few until the bubble burst then you immediately see the capitalist wanting socialism for themselves, no one else because they are basically greedy and don't care about anyone else.  There is no system in the world that can sustain pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Our country grew strong because we had a good balance that is now gone.  What really hurt our country is socialism for the capitalist not socialism for the poor.

No, our government was set up and based on the principles of Gods Word, though this fact is common knowledge, it is denied, despised, and rejected by many.  Our founding fathers did not hide this fact and made it plain time and time again. A corrupt and godless bunch will take advantage of our type government.

Our Constitution was made only fora moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams
Ben What do you make of my post  "TV Televangelists" re your "A corrupt and godless bunch will take advantage of our government"?
cider
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on June 01, 2019, 12:13:46 pm
Phillip - very well said.

Cider - you [seem to] specialize in finding the exception to the norm. From beekeeping to politics - there are always "norms" and always exceptions to them. There a good Christian people in this country - and there are people who pretend to be Good Christians for the sake of a dollar, and/or power. The later are not the norm.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 01, 2019, 01:07:27 pm
Phillip - very well said.

Cider - you [seem to] specialize in finding the exception to the norm. From beekeeping to politics - there are always "norms" and always exceptions to them. There a good Christian people in this country - and there are people who pretend to be Good Christians for the sake of a dollar, and/or power. The later are not the norm.
Phillip - very well said.

Cider - you [seem to] specialize in finding the exception to the norm. From beekeeping to politics - there are always "norms" and always exceptions to them. There a good Christian people in this country - and there are people who pretend to be Good Christians for the sake of a dollar, and/or power. The later are not the norm.

Very true Alan. To answer your question Cider, I agree with you and Iddee to a certain extent as per the one you described, therefore allowing me to also agree with Alan. Unfortunately in this land of sorrow and suffering, due to the curse of sin, there are just and unjust men living side by side. God will, in his day of judgement separate his sheep 🐑  from the goats 🐐. When our Lord and Savior was here with us he warned us of such wolves in sheep clothing.

Matthew 7:15 King James Version
15 Beware of false prophets, t come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Philippians 2:9-11 King James Version
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


I was a little late proof reading, I noticed a word which was wrong that mattered. I have now corrected.
Originally I agree with you and Iddee to a certain extent as per the one you described, therefore SLOWING me to also agree with Alan.  Amazing how one word can change the meaning of what was intended.
Corrected
I agree with you and Iddee to a certain extent as per the one you described, therefore ALLOWING me to also agree with Alan. Sorry Alan for the misprint. Phillip
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 01, 2019, 04:06:28 pm
Coolbees needs, I think to be a little more as your non-de-plume suggests. I only comment on things that interest me, leaving the religious nuts to one side it seemed inconceivable that nothing seems to have been done about it, Or do the powers that be have a vested interested? a la bible belt votes? "Don't upset the paying punters" one could say! by the way what is the 'bible belt'
'tis all fodder for a good debate or do you wish to stifle debate? not very democratic :smile:
cider 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 01, 2019, 05:05:39 pm
Coolbees needs, I think to be a little more as your non-de-plume suggests. I only comment on things that interest me, leaving the religious nuts to one side it seemed inconceivable that nothing seems to have been done about it, Or do the powers that be have a vested interested? a la bible belt votes? "Don't upset the paying punters" one could say! by the way what is the 'bible belt'
'tis all fodder for a good debate or do you wish to stifle debate? not very democratic :smile:
cider

Maybe non-de-plume from your point of view. I think there is a good chance your king of the middle 1700s, (George) might have referred to our founding fathers in the same manner of comments toward our founding fathers as you have people of faith. In fact, he might have used the same words, (religious  nuts). Hum   Up until England tangled with those (religious nuts) he pretty well had things going as he pleased throughout the world, What happened?
Maybe Alan is interested in religious comments. Or interested when someone attacks a crook, labeling others who honest in the same mold.  Other wise I doubt he would respond? If he just wanted to debate with you on every subject that you come up with , he otherwise would? Which he does not. Sometimes truth can stifle debate dead in its tracks.  Either you believe Gods Holy Word or you do not. What is left to debate?  It is each individual persons right. To believe or not to believe, Including you Cider.

John 14:6 King James Version
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Revelation 3:20 King James Version
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Gods Holy Word
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 01, 2019, 06:41:00 pm
Ben we aren't in the 1700s we're in the 21st century. Do you not think people don't appreciate being lectured to by way of quotes from the bible ad infinitum? tends to get in the way of pleasant debate. :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on June 01, 2019, 09:03:35 pm
The Bible (and God) never get old to me. ... nor should He. I understand there are many [now - as always] who wish He would "get old" ... but that don't make them right ... just sayin' ...
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 01, 2019, 10:09:02 pm
Now Cider my friend,  I was commenting on the debate of socialism, the Constitution, and Capitalism here. Comments were made about each one by different individuals here, making some good points, from each side of the debate. I simply reminded  myself and each debater that My Countries foundation is based upon Christian principles and will not properly work if we are not a moral people. A fact that can not be ignored. I also commented on the basis of how the left is attacking the very founding fathers who wrote our Construction and their desires for our Nation, both then in the 1700s as well as the future, (now). Good debatable grabbers. How can we have a decent debate by censoring my quotes by the one whom these principles were  drawn from?   One fellow, recently, quoted Mark Twain, Samuel Clemens, and the quote could have been easily been taken as directed toward you, which I do not know for sure, only he does, referring to a fool,  and could have easily been referring to me as being confused as one for debating you on a recent topic here. Yet you said not one word in response to that. Yet my quotes from The Holy Bible you do not want me to say.  And remember my friend,  YOU ASK ME about my opinion of your topic about the TV. Evangelist, A topic that YOU started, that said evangelist was an apparent alleged fraud according to the article form the address that you posted. So I again answered you and added another quote, and basically agreed with you and iddee on that one. I figured you would like that? So today, I answered you with quotes, not nearly as harsh as iddees. And you do not like it. Why?  I am surprised at your reaction Cider, Ole Chap.
:grin:
:shocked:

Iddees quote that you did not seem to mind.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.?

― Mark Twain
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 02, 2019, 03:33:40 am
.....and what was my reply to iddee?

 Sellios once said "A fool and his prejudice are hard to tell apart"

and " Mr Clemens most certainly had you in mind" (iddee)

At least with iddee I don't need to wade through reams of bible quotes to get to the nitty-gritty. I know you enjoy showing your expertise with bible texts but not everyone does, geddit? I think someone once said KISS :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 02, 2019, 07:37:46 am
geddit?

No Cider I do not get it. But I will bite and try. Let?s see, You like debating about politics. In fact you like debating about pretty much anything, so I thought? You seem like a jolly Brit. A Superman with words. A sharp crisp mind of a younger man. One who is well versed in the going ons in world affairs.  So no, I do not get it. Perhaps you can enlighten me? What is it that you dislike about the Bible so much that the subject is mute to you, or off limits to me. You act as the Bible is  kryptonite  toward you. So, I bit, I answered your question,  No, I do not  get it.   Hum 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 02, 2019, 09:21:59 am
our government was set up and based on the principles of Gods Word,

Who's God Ben?  While I went to a parochial school for the first 9 years of my formal education they did teach our government was set up as separate from church and state.  The main reason for coming to America was to be free from religious rule and persecution.  It is clear to me that some people in this country want to change that.  They quote bible verses, "their" bible.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 02, 2019, 09:35:41 am
Ben
I must admit I am indifferent to the book you call the bible, which was created when most people were illiterate and had to rely on a select few who give them their interpretation of the stories it contains. I suppose you could say "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king" :smile:
But I don't decry religion, I attended the funeral of a lifelong friend on Friday and willingly took part, it was at a Catholic church and I quite enjoyed the 'service' conducted by a priest. No happy clappy guitar twanging, just a dignified send off.   So I'm not totally dismissive of religion, only when it starts to preach at me, I prefer to make my own mind up! :cheesy:     
That is what I meant when I quoted "KISS"
cider     
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on June 02, 2019, 10:29:02 am
""The main reason for coming to America was to be free from religious rule and persecution.  It is clear to me that some people in this country want to change that. ""

You are right there. Ace. Some do want to change that. They want to pick and choose the religions that are acceptable, or not.

IE. No Christian prayer before congress meetings, but change the rules to accommodate hijabs is fine.
The problem is, the "some" that want to change it is opposite what you think.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 02, 2019, 12:49:33 pm
Cider you old windbag, I quoted the Bible,  ONLY after you ASK ME what I thought of your post about TV  Evangelist that YOU had POSTED in another topic. That was post 20 here.  Those quotes, from the Bible,  basically AGREED with YOU that there are fraudulent fake  preachers. Then you Holler foul.  You ole windbag. 😉


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 02, 2019, 03:18:34 pm
Hi Ben, ole windbag here :smile:
Referring again to my post about the cretins of the televangelist type why do you think there are a dearth of posts condemning them? Is it because they agree with these charlatans and money grabbing scumbags. Or have people been brainwashed over the years into believing its real? Funnily enough that reminds me of something familiar :rolleyes: 
ole windbag.

PS I think I'll have to find a new name for you (but it may not be funny!)
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 02, 2019, 04:33:16 pm
Hi Ben, ole windbag here :smile:
Referring again to my post about the cretins of the televangelist type why do you think there are a dearth of posts condemning them? Is it because they agree with these charlatans and money grabbing scumbags. Or have people been brainwashed over the years into believing its real? Funnily enough that reminds me of something familiar :rolleyes: 
ole windbag.

PS I think I'll have to find a new name for you (but it may not be funny!)

Now you see, there you go again, not wanting me to refer to the Bible in answering you but you still ask me questions about matters concerning it. I am happy to answer you my friend as best as I can. I am not a preacher or a deacon, in fact if you were happen to see me in a church you might find me on the back row. Therefore please bare with me. Cider even in the day of Jesus many of the religious leaders were crooked.  The (church) and its leaders rejected Jesus and his teachings. So he went to the sinners and publicans preaching and teaching of God his Father, and the people in the public places loved him and many embraced him. The ,quote,(religious folks) Hated and despised him. They called him names such as a glutinous man and a wine babbler. They might have said something like Look, he hangs out with the sinners!  They attacked him at every opportunity trying to discredit him. Time and time again they tried to nail him through debate.  And remember, these were the foremost experts more so educated in religious matters, the experts if you will, to debate him of such matters. They could not gain one slither of leverage against him so they nailed him to a cross. Little did that know that was his secret ambition! Filling  prophecy from their same bible that they were trying to nail him with! I am going to use a quote from one of the four gospels.  Gospels, testimony, from four men that walked, talked, and traveled with him throughout his Ministry. I am not quoting to preach to you, or try to convert, or convict  you. Only if I could , but I can not. Only the Spirit of God can do that. I am simply talking to you as a friend. Here is only one example of how the religious leaders mistreated Sweet Jesus. This is from Luke Ch 7. But is is written in three of the four gospels by three different witnesses.  PS I hope you know I am kidding you about being a windbag? 😊😁. God Bless you my friend.
Phillip

Like ch 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 02, 2019, 04:56:02 pm
IE. No Christian prayer before congress meetings, but change the rules to accommodate hijabs is fine.
The problem is, the "some" that want to change it is opposite what you think.
No Wally it is not fine.  I include all when I say want to change.  Every religion should be respected but it has no place in government.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on June 02, 2019, 05:32:24 pm
Cider - I have no use for the TVangelists. In Jesus' words, "they have their reward" (meaning they have their reward on this earth, instead of in heaven). ... I view them about as low as Socialists - but slightly less dangerous to the rest of us.

(I will allow that there probably some sincere and honest Christian people on TV who are trying to spread God's Message with a pure heart - but I'd also guess they are the exception rather than the rule).
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 02, 2019, 05:46:29 pm
Yes I agree Alan
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 02, 2019, 05:51:39 pm
Same here.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 02, 2019, 07:02:31 pm
Yes I agree Alan

Help my ministry , I need another jet plane. Mugs :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 02, 2019, 07:35:48 pm
Yes I agree Alan

Help my ministry , I need another jet plane. Mugs :cheesy:

😁😁😁😁
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 02, 2019, 07:45:12 pm
Yes I agree Alan

Help my ministry , I need another jet plane. Mugs :cheesy:

😁😁😁😁

Let me modify, yes I do agree but not completely, I think the crooked TV Evangelist are the most low down using Gods good and mercy for their own greed. The rest of us are as filthy rags and debatable from there. Now I feel better.  😁😁😁
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on June 02, 2019, 08:18:10 pm
Cider - in the interest of good friendship, I posted my televangelist story over on your other thread. ... since that's where I figured it belonged ... enjoy!  :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on June 03, 2019, 11:23:49 am
>Impeachment is not possible because the republicans have decided to collude with Trump to save their party.

Actually it's not possible because the President has not been accused of anything that is a "high crime".  You need to charge the President with something and they don't have something to charge him with.  You can't impeach a President because you don't like him.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on June 04, 2019, 12:07:36 am

Quote
Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism.  Capitalism breeds greed.

I'll read through the rest of this later, but this is complete BS.  Capitalism depends on someone meeting a need or want at a price and condition the consumer is willing to pay.  It is about choice.  If someone wants to make money in a capitalist system they have to serve the consumer.

socialism does not care what people want or need, it simply takes and gives what it think people should have. 

Capitalism is the best way to recover an economy.  No system is immune from the ups and downs of any economy, any time.  Communist and socialist countries suffered during the great depression, but had no way to recover because they had no way to grow their own economies.  If FDR had left things alone instead of manipulating the economy we would have recovered more quickly.  We recovered in spite of him, not because of him.
Same thing with what Obama did in the recession.  Left alone, a capitalist economy will find the bottom and rebound more quickly because it meets the demands of the consumer one way or another.  Government can't do that and in the attempt to "help" it interferes with recovery. 

Ace, I'm sure I'll find more to correct as I read through, but I thought I'd start with this   :cheesy:


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on June 04, 2019, 12:15:15 am
Quote
While I went to a parochial school for the first 9 years of my formal education they did teach our government was set up as separate from church and state.  The main reason for coming to America was to be free from religious rule and persecution.  It is clear to me that some people in this country want to change that.

You kinda got it, but kinda not.  While we do have a civil form of government, our founding principles are Judeo-Christian and if you read the founders, even the most non-religious of them talk about God/creator, etc. and acknowledge that the freedoms they expected for American were from the creator and not from man.  There was a reason for that.  What the creator gives can't be taken.  What man gives, can be taken.

The current understanding of the seperation of church and state was certainly not the understanding that the founders had.  They did not want a theocracy, and they did not want an all-powerful State church, but they interwove their beliefs into everything they said and did.  The separation ruling was an intentional misrepresentation of one 1/2 of one correspondence, written by one person.   
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 04, 2019, 08:49:35 am
Yeah, they also said all men are equal and women are servants and slaves are less then humans.  They all came to either avoid religious persecution or take advantage of those escaping.  They mowed down Indian nations who had more right to the land then we did.  Sure sounds like God loving people to me. :rolleyes:
They were rich and did what rich people do.
Contrary to what some people think it is not our founding fathers that made us great or our constitution.  It is the fact that we are made up of all nations and had to cooperate early on to survive.  Putin knows that if he can break down the cooperation our country will not be great.  He is doing a good job.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 04, 2019, 10:03:59 am
No Ace,
If it were not for our Constitution we would just bee another poor 3rd world country run by a corrupt government. Every time our government gets corrupt, it is our Constitution that helps bring us back. Just as is doing right now after the previous 8 years of corruption.
We need to put the people involved with that corruption in jail so that others don?t think they can also be above the law.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on June 04, 2019, 11:52:28 am
Quote
Yeah, they also said all men are equal and women are servants and slaves are less then humans.  They all came to either avoid religious persecution or take advantage of those escaping.  They mowed down Indian nations who had more right to the land then we did.  Sure sounds like God loving people to me. :rolleyes:
They were rich and did what rich people do.
Contrary to what some people think it is not our founding fathers that made us great or our constitution.  It is the fact that we are made up of all nations and had to cooperate early on to survive.  Putin knows that if he can break down the cooperation our country will not be great.  He is doing a good job.

Slavery and conquest have been the norm throughout history, and they still are in many places.  Societies change what they consider right and wrong on a regular basis, not always for the better.  This is also the history of the world.

So you think you could scoop up people and put them together and the natural outcome would be cooperation and the existence of a country like America?  Lol.  That was my laugh of the day.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 04, 2019, 12:29:04 pm
So glad to have you back posting Kathy, you common scene answers are a breath of fresh air!
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 04, 2019, 04:55:18 pm
Ben
I must admit I am indifferent to the book you call the bible, which was created when most people were illiterate and had to rely on a select few who give them their interpretation of the stories it contains. I suppose you could say "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king" :smile:
But I don't decry religion, I attended the funeral of a lifelong friend on Friday and willingly took part, it was at a Catholic church and I quite enjoyed the 'service' conducted by a priest. No happy clappy guitar twanging, just a dignified send off.   So I'm not totally dismissive of religion, only when it starts to preach at me, I prefer to make my own mind up! :cheesy:     
That is what I meant when I quoted "KISS"
cider     

Cider, sorry you lost a life long friend.  That is always sad.
Van
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 04, 2019, 05:05:23 pm
Quoting Van
Cider, sorry you lost a life long friend.  That is always sad.
Van


I am sorry for your loss also Cider.
Phillip
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on June 04, 2019, 07:46:12 pm
Much appreciated of you both, it was a hard couple of days, for my wife and I, forty three years seems a lifetime. :cry:
cider
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 05, 2019, 11:13:08 am
So you think you could scoop up people and put them together and the natural outcome would be cooperation and the existence of a country like America?

Yes I do when their existence depends on it.  What the heck do you think the armed forces are?  Brothers and sisters?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on June 05, 2019, 12:23:32 pm
Quote
Yes I do when their existence depends on it.  What the heck do you think the armed forces are?  Brothers and sisters?

Lol.  You do realize that in the military we have a lot of rules (laws) that force conformity?

What you are talking about is tribes.  I'll give you this though, a large part of the reason for states and state sovereignty is that it was recognized that people would want to band together to create the society that worked best for them.  One overpowering government can not, and should not, rule the entire population WITHIN the bounds of the very few dictates of the constitution.  The constitution was designed to restrain government not people.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 05, 2019, 04:21:21 pm
By your own words the military, which is federal makes rules and forces conformity.  Why does that work?  Isn't the military just another form of government?  Many governments are run by the military.  Are they stable?  I will go back to what I said.  If your existence depends on getting along with what you perceive to be your enemy then you will.
I especially like the rule in the military, "Don't ask, don't tell".
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on June 05, 2019, 04:28:11 pm
I'll give you this though, a large part of the reason for states and state sovereignty is that it was recognized that people would want to band together to create the society that worked best for them.

In the horse and buggy days there might have been some differences in society from state to state.  Today with jet planes and the internet a foreigner couldn't tell us apart except for some slight accent in speech.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 05, 2019, 04:59:18 pm
By your own words the military, which is federal makes rules and forces conformity.  Why does that work?  Isn't the military just another form of government?  Many governments are run by the military.  Are they stable?  I will go back to what I said.  If your existence depends on getting along with what you perceive to be your enemy then you will.
I especially like the rule in the military, "Don't ask, don't tell".

 If your existence depends on getting along with what you perceive to be your enemy then you will.

That  is what France, Poland, Belgium, and many other countries, and most the rest of the world thought also, back before WW2. After all wasn?t  WW1 intended to be , and slated as ?the war to end all wars.?  Problem was Hitler did not see where he should play nice and fair. Now I feel certain that if Germany would have won the war, Mr Hitler would have made sure by this military force that everyone (whom was left alive), would have gotten along just fine, or reaped the consequences.  By force of course.  Is this the kind of government  that you would prefer?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on June 05, 2019, 06:07:32 pm
>Today with jet planes and the internet a foreigner couldn't tell us apart except for some slight accent in speech.

You haven't spent much time in Nebraska.  Here's the sign at the local bar:
https://www.safetysign.com/products/9500/firearms-permitted-on-these-premises-sign?s=st1zskc92tzpp19l9zbp1d0

We are quite different from some other states... and quite like others...
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on June 05, 2019, 06:23:01 pm
Quote
By your own words the military, which is federal makes rules and forces conformity.

I am not sure of your point.  I thought you were making a case for this happening naturally because people would need/want to work together.  No underlying structure needed. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on June 05, 2019, 07:16:46 pm
...

You haven't spent much time in Nebraska.  Here's the sign at the local bar:
https://www.safetysign.com/products/9500/firearms-permitted-on-these-premises-sign?s=st1zskc92tzpp19l9zbp1d0
...

Thats my kind of place!
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on June 05, 2019, 10:08:38 pm
Military equals freedom................for civilians.

They tell you when to get up, when to eat, what to eat, and when to go to bed. If they say "stand up and die", you do it

I guess that's the way Ace wants the civilians to be controlled, right down to what clothes to wear each day.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 05, 2019, 10:38:34 pm
Ace,
That is called a nanny state. That is where we were heading up until 2 years ago. We were loosing all of our freedom. Congress is still working towards it.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on June 05, 2019, 11:03:57 pm
Ace sure loves a good debate! He will comeback with something,  Just wait and see! 😁
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 11, 2019, 12:42:32 pm
Ace sure loves a good debate! He will comeback with something,  Just wait and see! 😁
Ben
Something along the lines of two counts for impeachment being implemented? It's getting clooooser getting stroonger every day as the song goes. :smile: 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 11, 2019, 01:03:28 pm
Quote
Something along the lines of two counts for impeachment being implemented? It's getting clooooser getting stroonger every day as the song goes.

The House can send to the Senate anything they want as articles of impeachment.  The impeachment trial takes place in the Senate.

In past impeachments, of which there have been few, outside investigators found crimes.  They gave those reports of the crimes to the House.  The house then had it's own investigation/debate based on those reports of criminal behavior.

In this case, there was no outside investigation, no crimes that they could land on, and the debate was one-sided.  That's perfectly legal because the house sets its own rules.  Legal and wise are two different things.

The democrats in the house floated all kinds of wording to see what was most popular with the public.  They floated many of these "crimes" after doing polling to see what people were most favorably inclined to embrace.

What they landed on was a vague "abuse of power" and a non-crime for a president "obstruction of congress".  The first could be applied at one time or another to any president.  I can think of several actions by the last president that are incredibly serious and certainly fit the abuse of power charges.  Obstruction of Congress is just stupid.  We have 3 branches of government.  They are meant to be oppositional to a large extent.  Why?  Because it keeps any part of government (in theory) from gaining to much power.

If congress had wanted the witnesses and the documents that the president did not give them, they could have gone to court.  All 3 branches would then have had involvement and the court would have made the determination.  Not giving congress all that they ask for is routine for any president.  Congress is often forced to go to court to get stuff. 

Under the last admin, congress found the AG for Obama in contempt of Congress for not turning over documents.  Big deal.  They didn't get the documents and the guy kept his job. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on December 11, 2019, 01:08:13 pm
>Not giving congress all that they ask for is routine for any president.

Clinton refused their subpoenas when they were impeaching him.  It should be expected.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on December 11, 2019, 02:02:41 pm
This whole charade may bite the Dems - I'd laugh myself silly if california went Red in 2020 ...

https://twitter.com/fly3rguy/status/1204178496056107009?s=09 

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on December 11, 2019, 02:08:43 pm
It looks like they are already losing PA, MI and other "battleground" states.  If they start losing blue states, that will be wonderful.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 11, 2019, 03:10:21 pm
It looks like they are already losing PA, MI and other "battleground" states.  If they start losing blue states, that will be wonderful.
Isn't the point of the exercise to implement doubt in public perception of G&T, not to convince a load of neo-cons on forums? Everyone knows it's not going beyond the first stage, that's irrelevant, it's the public perception :rolleyes: :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 11, 2019, 03:48:13 pm
Isn't the point of the exercise to implement doubt in public perception of G&T...
Yes.

It is a good thing that the entire world has come to the same realization already.


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 11, 2019, 03:55:06 pm
Quote
Isn't the point of the exercise to implement doubt in public perception of G&T, not to convince a load of neo-cons on forums? Everyone knows it's not going beyond the first stage, that's irrelevant, it's the public perception

If the point was to negatively impact public perception of Trump it is failing.  Both supporters and detractors are where they were.  What is changing is the perception of the purple people.  In those states, the swing is toward Trump.  Why?  Because once again people were promised THE BOMBSHELL that would convince them of what a bad person Trump is and the crimes he has committed as president.  The bombshell once again failed to materialize. 

If people had the intestinal fortitude to watch the hearings, they found that there was nothing there.  Further, they found that the witnesses called by the dems were heavily biased from the beginning of the Trump admin.  Testimony colored by bias is not worth much.  Testimony that is not first-hand knowledge of wrongdoing is even more worthless. 

People observed that the dems could not figure out what they would charge, and if they couldn't figure out what they would charge, they had nothing TO charge.  Thus the rediculous articles of impeachment on which they will vote. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on December 11, 2019, 04:17:32 pm

Isn't the point of the exercise to implement doubt in public perception of G&T, ... ? Everyone knows it's not going beyond the first stage, that's irrelevant, it's the public perception :rolleyes: :cheesy:

Yes - that was their [attempted] point ... but it ain't workin' ...  I find it amusing to watch their hatred drive them into contortions - a Hollywood writer couldn't make stuff this good up ...
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 11, 2019, 05:36:37 pm

Isn't the point of the exercise to implement doubt in public perception of G&T, ... ? Everyone knows it's not going beyond the first stage, that's irrelevant, it's the public perception :rolleyes: :cheesy:

Yes - that was their [attempted] point ... but it ain't workin' ...  I find it amusing to watch their hatred drive them into contortions - a Hollywood writer couldn't make stuff this good up ...

Quacks they seem to be cool.   :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 14, 2019, 12:23:52 am
The impeachment vote is looking pretty close at this time.  Several DemoRats in conservative districts are thinking about their next campaigns and getting reelected next year.
But,  meanwhile in London,  Boris and his Conservatives won!   :cool:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 14, 2019, 04:55:28 am
The impeachment vote is looking pretty close at this time.  Several DemoRats in conservative districts are thinking about their next campaigns and getting reelected next year.
But,  meanwhile in London,  Boris and his Conservatives won!   :cool:
Yes, great! just what we needed, get out of the EU and no more Corbyn. :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 14, 2019, 11:56:33 am
Quote
Yes, great! just what we needed, get out of the EU and no more Corbyn.

Now I have a question about your politics  :grin:

From an outside perspective, Corbyn seems like our Pelosi.  No one wanted him but they picked him anyway.  I always figured Nancy kept power because she'd been there so long she knew where all the bodies were buried.  Same with Corbyn?  Glad to hear him say he'd step away, but as with Nancy, I would believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 14, 2019, 07:00:18 pm
Quote
Yes, great! just what we needed, get out of the EU and no more Corbyn.

Now I have a question about your politics  :grin:

From an outside perspective, Corbyn seems like our Pelosi.  No one wanted him but they picked him anyway.  I always figured Nancy kept power because she'd been there so long she knew where all the bodies were buried.  Same with Corbyn?  Glad to hear him say he'd step away, but as with Nancy, I would believe it when I see it.
Corbyn will step down sooner rather than later, usually, it is quite soon but you never know. He was a non-entity on the backbenches propelled into the leaders position by the 'men in suits' as they used to say, a convenient frontman. But they got it wrong, he was unelectable. We now have a new phenomenon here, the Momentum Movement, effectively a party within a party. A little like your Tea Party, but not as well armed :grin: I would think they are the rioters in London, eventually they will disperse and go home to mummy. The worst thing the Labour Party did was to reduce the membership fee to around $6 and invite everyone and his dog to join, membership now up to .5m in a population of about 60m.
Unfortunately, politics are a-changing :sad:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 14, 2019, 08:09:17 pm
Quote
Yes, great! just what we needed, get out of the EU and no more Corbyn.

Now I have a question about your politics  :grin:

From an outside perspective, Corbyn seems like our Pelosi.  No one wanted him but they picked him anyway.  I always figured Nancy kept power because she'd been there so long she knew where all the bodies were buried.  Same with Corbyn?  Glad to hear him say he'd step away, but as with Nancy, I would believe it when I see it.
Corbyn will step down sooner rather than later, usually, it is quite soon but you never know. He was a non-entity on the backbenches propelled into the leaders position by the 'men in suits' as they used to say, a convenient frontman. But they got it wrong, he was unelectable. We now have a new phenomenon here, the Momentum Movement, effectively a party within a party. A little like your Tea Party, but not as well armed :grin: I would think they are the rioters in London, eventually they will disperse and go home to mummy. The worst thing the Labour Party did was to reduce the membership fee to around $6 and invite everyone and his dog to join, membership now up to .5m in a population of about 60m.
Unfortunately, politics are a-changing :sad:

Now Cider, the folks which are rioters here in America are not the tea party folks. You will usually see these nice, civilized, orderly folks out with their entire families, small children to old men and women. The disturbers, the thugs, the rioters are usually the leftist bunch such as antifa. Ruthless, attacking old women in wheelchairs etc. very vile humans.  However, we did have a famous American that once said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt.  I suppose there has always been thugs. Perhaps his motto was directed at the thugs of his day?   
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 14, 2019, 08:29:24 pm
Quote
Yes, great! just what we needed, get out of the EU and no more Corbyn.

Now I have a question about your politics  :grin:

From an outside perspective, Corbyn seems like our Pelosi.  No one wanted him but they picked him anyway.  I always figured Nancy kept power because she'd been there so long she knew where all the bodies were buried.  Same with Corbyn?  Glad to hear him say he'd step away, but as with Nancy, I would believe it when I see it.
Corbyn will step down sooner rather than later, usually, it is quite soon but you never know. He was a non-entity on the backbenches propelled into the leaders position by the 'men in suits' as they used to say, a convenient frontman. But they got it wrong, he was unelectable. We now have a new phenomenon here, the Momentum Movement, effectively a party within a party. A little like your Tea Party, but not as well armed :grin: I would think they are the rioters in London, eventually they will disperse and go home to mummy. The worst thing the Labour Party did was to reduce the membership fee to around $6 and invite everyone and his dog to join, membership now up to .5m in a population of about 60m.
Unfortunately, politics are a-changing :sad:

Now Cider, the folks which are rioters here in America are not the tea party folks. You will usually see these nice, civilized, orderly folks out with their entire families, small children to old men and women. The disturbers, the thugs, the rioters are usually the leftist bunch such as antifa. Ruthless, attacking old women in wheelchairs etc. very vile humans.  However, we did have a famous American that once said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt.  I suppose there has always been thugs. Perhaps his motto was directed at the thugs of his day?
Ben your rambling again (will need the pills and salt shortly, a la iddee) I was just referring to a party within a party. Everyone knows the Tea party was a club for Grannies and very young children. Young children???  :shocked: :shocked:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 14, 2019, 08:30:36 pm
Quote
Yes, great! just what we needed, get out of the EU and no more Corbyn.

Now I have a question about your politics  :grin:

From an outside perspective, Corbyn seems like our Pelosi.  No one wanted him but they picked him anyway.  I always figured Nancy kept power because she'd been there so long she knew where all the bodies were buried.  Same with Corbyn?  Glad to hear him say he'd step away, but as with Nancy, I would believe it when I see it.
Corbyn will step down sooner rather than later, usually, it is quite soon but you never know. He was a non-entity on the backbenches propelled into the leaders position by the 'men in suits' as they used to say, a convenient frontman. But they got it wrong, he was unelectable. We now have a new phenomenon here, the Momentum Movement, effectively a party within a party. A little like your Tea Party, but not as well armed :grin: I would think they are the rioters in London, eventually they will disperse and go home to mummy. The worst thing the Labour Party did was to reduce the membership fee to around $6 and invite everyone and his dog to join, membership now up to .5m in a population of about 60m.
Unfortunately, politics are a-changing :sad:

Now Cider, the folks which are rioters here in America are not the tea party folks. You will usually see these nice, civilized, orderly folks out with their entire families, small children to old men and women. The disturbers, the thugs, the rioters are usually the leftist bunch such as antifa. Ruthless, attacking old women in wheelchairs etc. very vile humans.  However, we did have a famous American that once said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt.  I suppose there has always been thugs. Perhaps his motto was directed at the thugs of his day?
Ben your rambling again (will need the pills and salt shortly, a la iddee) I was just referring to a party within a party. Everyone knows the Tea party was a club for Grannies and very young children??? :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 17, 2019, 03:52:29 pm
Ben
Why the uncalled for edit?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: MikeyN.C. on December 17, 2019, 07:44:49 pm
Cider, I know u don't see much, the rep. from FL. Just spoke Dem. Her last name was Sahlala :smile:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: MikeyN.C. on December 17, 2019, 07:48:24 pm
Shalala
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: MikeyN.C. on December 17, 2019, 07:50:57 pm
So does that give u a understanding of who dems. are voting in ?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 17, 2019, 09:01:07 pm
So does that give u a understanding of who dems. are voting in ?
when they voted Hadassah in I wondered what they were doing, but there you go. Dems seem to vote for anyone :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on December 19, 2019, 07:37:44 am
So does that give u a understanding of who dems. are voting in ?
when they voted Hadassah in I wondered what they were doing, but there you go. Dems seem to vote for anyone :rolleyes:
Well, he's made one of the 'Three' if you discount the republican Nixon. Something else to be remembered for as well as the hair. :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2019, 07:48:45 am
But the first one to be for doing exactly what the other side has been doing.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 19, 2019, 10:36:53 am
I predict he will be the first president to be impeached more than once.
Stay tuned.
Title: Is impeachment close?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on December 19, 2019, 12:08:16 pm
From north of the 49th, it just looks like a political power play devised to conceal what is really going on as regular business.  A smoke show to keep the public distracted from what laws and regulations are being passed.  What highly impactful and potentially contentious new laws or revisions are coming into effect that are not broadly aware? Because everyone is focused on the Get Trump Show.

It also looks like a disruption intended to cloud the upcoming election.  There also has been alot of bandwidth burned up over concerns of external interference in the election process.  Why no such level of concern about internal interference? which is what this blatantly looks like.  Wanna talk about abusing power, perhaps turn the lenses towards Nancy and crew and remove the smoke screen.

??-
Just like that snotty nosed privileged brat who stops her feet and screams in the middle of the crowded shopping mall.
Like that lone wolf on the trail ahead distracting from the others coming up behind and sides.
Like the mesmerizing display of the cuttle fish just before it swallows its prey.
Like the cobra calming still its meal.

The -prey- is the general public.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2019, 12:29:56 pm
Quote
From north of the 49th, it just looks like a political power play devised to conceal what is really going on as regular business.

Perhaps, but I think there are two more likely things going on.

1. The idea that Trump will get at least one more SCOTUS appointment, and perhaps two more, scares the crap out of the left.  The last thing they want is more people interpreting cases according to the constitution.

2.  So far, they have crap candidates and are very afraid they can't beat him in the election.

The left in this country is not used to having to win in the court of public opinion.  They usually force what they want by way of leftist courts.  It is very common for them to judge shop, and get what they want.   With a liberal SCOTUS that makes decisions according to feeling rather than law, they have a good chance of not being challenged. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on December 19, 2019, 01:26:09 pm

...
1. The idea that Trump will get at least one more SCOTUS appointment, and perhaps two more, scares the crap out of the left.  The last thing they want is more people interpreting cases according to the constitution.

2.  So far, they have crap candidates and are very afraid they can't beat him in the election.
...

Kathy, I would agree with you on both counts ...

... but there's something that isn't quite adding up here, (and I'm not sure I can put it into words), ... IF I read HP's comment correctly, he's searching (and offering possible suggestions) for the answer of "what else is going on?" question. He may be right ...

It certainly "feels" like there's "something else" - because what we are seeing, doesn't make sense on so many levels:

1 - dems have a plan - they always do, and their plans have been getting more advanced as the decades role by
2 - there hasn't been any actual crime that has been uncovered
3 - the Dems are running "jokes" for candidates in 2020 (somewhat unusual - as they usually can dig an Obama type out of the woodwork somewhere, and have a shot at winning - but they haven't even tried that - their running only known, vetted, "losers" in this race
4 - the Senate won't pass the "impeachment" without an actual crime, and this was known before the entire circus began.
5 - the house didn't even pretend to offer a fair "inquiry", and most in the public know it.
6 - the Dems do extensive study into public opinion - and [it might seem to some] they've totally missed the boat this time around - (I don't believe that. I think they're much smarter [behind the scenes] than that)
Etc, etc ...

So - we have a democrat party that "appears" to be trying to lose an election, apparently planned to lose impeachment  (since there wasn't an impeachable crime found, but they passed & forwarded it anyways), and stands to take a beating at the ballot boxes in 2020 ...

 ... what we are seeing in front of us isn't making any sense, so it does beg the question "what else is going on right now that we're being distracted from?". ...
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2019, 02:26:54 pm
Quote
what we are seeing in front of us isn't making any sense, so it does beg the question "what else is going on right now that we're being distracted from?

There may be something.  IDK what it is.  At this point, it seems to be working more in favor of Trump.  I  never thought in my lifetime I'd see the 9th circuit court flipped, as an example.  He's done the same with other courts.  No one is paying attention to that. 

It is also possible that we are giving them more credit for brains than they deserve  :wink:  NP knew this was a bad idea, but couldn't control her nutters.  The thing we might be missing is how out of control the dems have become as they go farther and farther left. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on December 19, 2019, 03:38:52 pm

It is also possible that we are giving them more credit for brains than they deserve  :wink:  NP knew this was a bad idea, but couldn't control her nutters.  The thing we might be missing is how out of control the dems have become as they go farther and farther left.

You might be, and I certainly hope you are, right.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on December 19, 2019, 03:57:29 pm
From a guy that does not follow politics (except for the news and late night comedians) he looks dirty. He runs his presidency like a game show, most of his associates that did not have presidential protection are doing time, he tweets stupid bleep constantly and now he is impeached. I find it difficult to believe that all the media except for Fox news is wrong and corrupt which seems to be the common theme here. Trump supporters are like an overprotective mom of a vandalizing brat that you caught him spray painting your fence and stealing your car. Well mom the cops just came and got him.
If he wanted his place in history looks like he has it.
Yeah it?s the democrats because they are afraid of how great he is?
I am in Oregon. We get what the rest of the country decides is right for us so I do not follow it other than to laugh along. I will stick to welding, bee keeping, hunting, fishing and shooting and gardening.


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on December 19, 2019, 04:30:04 pm
.... I will stick to welding, bee keeping, hunting, fishing and shooting and gardening.

We've got a lot in common - good choices of hobies imho.   :smile: :smile: :cool:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2019, 05:12:45 pm
Quote
I find it difficult to believe that all the media except for Fox news is wrong and corrupt which seems to be the common theme here. Trump supporters are like an overprotective mom of a vandalizing brat that you caught him spray painting your fence and stealing your car. Well mom the cops just came and got him.

We don't have to guess at the medias leanings.  Most are democrats.  We don't have to guess who they wanted to win.  We know to whom they donated money.  We also got to see them in tears and disbelief on election night.  No, not all of them are corrupt.  There have been democrat/liberal journalists who have been crying foul against both the dem legislature and press. There have been people and outlets other than FOX who have done real journalism and call this crap.   If you did follow along, you would not be surprised by things like the IGs report on the FISA abuse, as an example.  You would not have expected the Mueller Report to take Trump out.

If your source of news is the 6pm nightly, then yes, you have been lied to.  There is no kinder way to put it.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who never question what they are told by those talking heads.  I get it.  It takes time and effort to do research and a lot of people don't have the time or the energy.

Trump is many things.  He is bombastic, talks off the cuff often to his own detriment, and is a prolific tweeter.  None of that is impeachable.  No impeachable offences, as we have understood them in the past, were committed by him and no testimony said otherwise. 
The first mention of impeaching Trump came less the 24 hours after he took office.  He is not the chosen one.  He has shaken things up.  He makes dems crazy.  Not impeachable.

For congress to dumb down what is a serious and rare tool, is not for the good of the country or their party.  "I hate the guy" is not a reason for impeachment.  That you don't like him is fine.  That you base your view of the rest of us on you admittedly uninformed opinion is...odd, but fine too, I guess. 

There is more to come.  The Durham report is next.  It should be interesting.



Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2019, 06:46:31 pm
Minz, just stop and think for a minute. They said the day he was sworn in, they were going to impeach him. Then they try the Russia thing for 2 years. It doesn't work. There was nothing there and it was proven. Then they come up with an anonymous whistle blower, who may not even exist, and scream about a phone call. He released the transcript of the call and proved there was nothing there. Then they admittedly lied to congress during the hearing and still voted to impeach. Just how much do you need to know to see the frame up there. It took them 3 years and then voted on admitted lies to get it done, after they stated publicly that they were going to do it.

As Stalin said,  show me the man, I'll find the crime. They did, even tho it didn't exist.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 19, 2019, 07:57:11 pm
Minz, just stop and think for a minute. They said the day he was sworn in, they were going to impeach him. Then they try the Russia thing for 2 years. It doesn't work. There was nothing there and it was proven. Then they come up with an anonymous whistle blower, who may not even exist, and scream about a phone call. He released the transcript of the call and proved there was nothing there. Then they admittedly lied to congress during the hearing and still voted to impeach. Just how much do you need to know to see the frame up there. It took them 3 years and then voted on admitted lies to get it done, after they stated publicly that they were going to do it.

As Stalin said,  show me the man, I'll find the crime. They did, even tho it didn't exist.

Very good iddee, and with this sort of corruption, bias, and collusion, on the part of the left, for the past three years against our President, which can be translated to the American voters, how long can we expect to be able to enjoy shooting? The democrats are vowing to take guns. They are adopting measures, threatening to use the military force in Virginia to do so!
Under the leadership of Clinton, Bush, and Obama we waved bye bye to jobs by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions and allowed to go overseas via manufaracting, without so much as putting any effort into stopping such, as far as I know.  Just poof let them go! Jobs which includes our fellow welders losing jobs and for that matter having work that requires welding? Mr Trump is bringing them back. Just look at the difference in the economy from today and before Mr Trump, the outsider, was elected.
The things we wish for is our choice for own dreams of personal pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and good things they are, the American dream. Just live our lives and let live, but freedom is always under attack by the corrupt for their own personal gain. The Bidens for instance.  Mr Trump was accused in asking a favor for his own personal gain.  Mr Trump did not say do ME a favor and check into this, he ask to do US a favor, for the good of our country, and not once did he say or suggest quid pro quo. If so where is the proof? Yes iddee, Mr Trump stands in their way just and Mr Kennedy, a democrat stood in their way in his time. Mr Kennedy took a bullet to the head for his efforts, Mr Trump has taken a political shot to the head just as sure as Mr Kennedy took a physical bullet shot to the head, right in public for all the world to see live! Mr Trump has taken a deadly political wound to the head for all the world to see! Can he survive the deadly wound to the head? As Ronald Reagan said, every generation is one generation from losing our freedom. It is up to each of us as individuals to be informed. Unfortunately it seems that the nation is divided on this.
Evil is always out there seeking, looking, lurking, roaring like a raving wolf seeking whom it may devour.  One thing each of us should ask ourselves, regardless of political preference, is the nation better off today than it was when the democrats were in charge? Are you better off today than when either the Bushes, or Obama was in charge? If Mr Trump broke the law. For his personal gair or for the good of America, where is the proof? Just because the obviously bios news or democrats says so does that make it true? Again where was the proof, where is the proof?  We all heard the transcript, no proof was presented. All the democrats (witnesses) were questioned, where is the proof? We can talk and reason with our friends on the left until we turn blue what good has it done?  Just my opinion. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2019, 08:14:19 pm
""how long can we expect to be able to enjoy shooting? ""

That's an easy one.   "For the rest of my life."

That may be just after they pass the law, or when I die naturally, but as long as I'm living, I will have my guns and ammo
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 19, 2019, 08:16:42 pm
""how long can we expect to be able to enjoy shooting? ""

That's an easy one.   "For the rest of my life."

That may be just after they pass the law, or when I die naturally, but as long as I'm living, I will have my guns and ammo

That just may be the case? Check out what is going on in Virginia. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 19, 2019, 08:28:55 pm
Iddee I know you can not hear, but look up the following on youtube, start playing and simply click the CC button. It will display in closed caption. And this is not Fox, its OAN. Even though I am thinking Tucker Carlson on Fox also addressed this.
The 2nd Amendment Under Attack in Virginia



https://youtu.be/pkT3bn70CkI
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2019, 08:37:22 pm
I'm familiar with what is going on in Virginia. I also know similar has been going on since Matt Dillon made them check their guns at the door when going into the Long Branch Saloon. I'm not worried. It will not last long.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 19, 2019, 08:45:43 pm
I'm familiar with what is going on in Virginia. I also know similar has been going on since Matt Dillon made them check their guns at the door when going into the Long Branch Saloon. I'm not worried. It will not last long.

Matt was a republican?  He didn't mind most of the time. He would meet them in the saloon, or on the street and draw that big gun if needed.   I think it was Wyatt Earp that checked the guns. But your point is WELL taken.   :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2019, 09:35:42 pm
I have relatives in VA.  After the election, a couple of them said not to worry.  VA was at least purple and the govt would not risk passing a lot of leftist laws.  You don't know how hard it has been for me not to say I TOLD YOU SO.  VA is like most states with leftist governments.  Most of it is not crazy, but the part that is makes the rules for everyone.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on December 19, 2019, 11:18:32 pm
Interesting to watch, whatever the end may be.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2019, 11:55:08 am
Quote
Interesting to watch, whatever the end may be.

You have to give us credit for being entertaining   :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on December 20, 2019, 01:24:29 pm
It is a never ending story of the Democrats. As soon as they get control they want to take all the power from the citizens.
Na
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on December 20, 2019, 01:32:43 pm
""how long can we expect to be able to enjoy shooting? ""

That's an easy one.   "For the rest of my life."

That may be just after they pass the law, or when I die naturally, but as long as I'm living, I will have my guns and ammo

[10 thumbs-up]!  :cool:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 01:57:59 pm
It is a never ending story of the Democrats. As soon as they get control they want to take all the power from the citizens.
Na

Jim I think you are correct, and the business of the country be cast aside. Thus the name. (Do nothing Democrats), but one thing they are good at! Stifle forward progress of the nation..  At this they are the Champions!!! There slogan should be.  (Let?s trash America, Together we can!)
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 02:58:06 pm
"You are free to criticize him, to find his personal conduct distasteful, but ask whether this is the moment when, for the first time in our history, the actions of a president have so put at risk the government the framers created that there is only one solution."

That question is as valid now as it was when Charles Ruff, the fourth and final Watergate special prosecutor, asked the senators that question when defending Bill Clinton during his trial in the Senate.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 03:14:43 pm
Impeached:
Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump

Impeachment considered against:
John Tyler - vote failed , James Buchanan - (corruption, but not enough to warrant impeachment - no vote), Ulysses S. Grant- (corruption - no vote), Herbert Hoover (resolutions submitted twice), Harry Truman (firing MacArthur), Richard Nixon (resigned when imminent - no vote), Ronald Regan (Iran-contra scandal) & George W. Bush (Iraq invasion in 2003)


From Impeachment, An American History by Jon Meacham, Peter Baker, Timothy Naftali and Jeffrey A. Engel
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 03:56:32 pm
What are high crimes and (high) misdemeanors?
FYI - if you asked yourself the same question.

More passages from the same source, Impeachment, An American History by Jon Meacham, Peter Baker, Timothy Naftali and Jeffrey A. Engel (forgive me for not attributing quotes):
As Virginia's Edmund Randolph explained the clause to his state's ratifying convention,"No man ever thought of impeaching a man for an opinion," or even for making a mistake, so long as the error came while in honest search of an ideal course. Merely being bad a the job did not demand one's impeachment. Undesirable yes; despicable perhaps; but not impeachable. Neither were proof of clear mistakes cause for impeachment. "It would be impossible to discover whether the error in opinion resulted for a willful mistake of the heart," Randolph elaborated, "or an involuntary fault of the head."


And in my observation is where we come to the fork in the road. Prosecutors say Trump's actions were for personal gain against a political rival. Defenders say Trump's actions were part of his swamp draining effort pledged during his campaign.
So, until there is the smoking gun proving sinister intent (like Nixon's tape recordings), in my mind, Trump in entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 04:24:13 pm
What are high crimes and (high) misdemeanors?
FYI - if you asked yourself the same question.

More passages from the same source, Impeachment, An American History by Jon Meacham, Peter Baker, Timothy Naftali and Jeffrey A. Engel (forgive me for not attributing quotes):
  • Those a president may commit against the entire American people
  • Impeachments are confined to political crimes - James Wilson in 1801
  • impeachable offenses did not reside with the sphere of ordinary jurisprudence - James Wilson in 1801
  • offenses against the public interest which need not be indictable under criminal laws - Hugh Williamson
  • an impeachable offense need not be illegal at all
  • offences which are committed by public men in violation of their public trust - Unidentified early Supreme Court justice
  • are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself - Alexander Hamilton
  • perpetrated with sinister intent to harm the republic for personal gain
  • required "wicked motive". "The President," is to be "personally responsible for any abuse of the great trust reposed in him." - Supreme Court Justice James Iredell
  • "...Whatever a majority of the house of representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history." - Gerald Ford
As Virginia's Edmund Randolph explained the clause to his state's ratifying convention,"No man ever thought of impeaching a man for an opinion," or even for making a mistake, so long as the error came while in honest search of an ideal course. Merely being bad a the job did not demand one's impeachment. Undesirable yes; despicable perhaps; but not impeachable. Neither were proof of clear mistakes cause for impeachment. "It would be impossible to discover whether the error in opinion resulted for a willful mistake of the heart," Randolph elaborated, "or an involuntary fault of the head."


And in my observation is where we come to the fork in the road. Prosecutors say Trump's actions were for personal gain against a political rival. Defenders say Trump's actions were part of his swamp draining effort pledged during his campaign.
So, until there is the smoking gun proving sinister intent (like Nixon's tape recordings), in my mind, Trump in entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

Good post Tom. Just reinforces this was a (political) assassination as all the honest world knows. Which clearly shows the real abuse of power came from the House of Representatives.



.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 04:48:01 pm
Let me follow up with one last point.
Nixon's motives were not discovered until he provided information (the tapes) to the various investigators that were going on at the time (4 of them) after the Supreme Court decided against him. (Unites Stats v. Nixon)
Clinton was also forced to provide information after being ordered to by the courts (Clinton v. Jones). Kenneth Starr was able to get statements from White House aides, secret service, and government lawyers using United States v. Nixon.

Donald Trump's resistance to provide information was never tested by a court action. So I do not know if it is too soon to charge him with obstruction at this point in time. Legal precedent is not on his side.
That being said, it is clear Nancy Pelosi was not going to let 2019 house session end without an impeachment vote.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 04:58:01 pm
Let me follow up with one last point.
Nixon's motives were not discovered until he provided information (the tapes) to the various investigators that were going on at the time (4 of them) after the Supreme Court decided against him.
Clinton was also forced to provide information after being ordered to by the courts following the Nixon ruling.

Donald Trump's resistance to provide information was never tested by a court action. So I do not know if it is too soon to charge him with obstruction at this point in time. Legal precedent is not on his side.
That being said, it is clear Nancy Pelosi was not going to let 2019 house session end without an impeachment vote.

What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?  And notice that this time I said the democrats, I did not say the House because not one Republican went along with this obvious hit job, as a matter of fact one of the democrats was so disgusted that he is leaving the democratic party, which is in the house majority, to join the house minority! Which is no small thing.... What does that tell us?



.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 05:09:22 pm

What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?
Arguably they should not have to go to court to enforce what has been decided already. They sort of got him on that one.

That being said. This is a political trial, not a civil or criminal trial. The juror/judge senators are entitled to set their own rules. The framers of the constitution intentionally gave them that right considering the circumstances.


Ultimately, it is the will of the people pressuring their senator representatives on what the outcome will be. 


And the framers provided that a sentence less than removal, like censure, could be the result if convicted.


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 05:12:06 pm

What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?
Arguably they should not have to go to court to enforce what has been decided already. They sort of got him on that one.

That being said. This is a political trial, not a civil or criminal trial. The juror/judge senators are entitled to set their own rules. The framers of the constitution intentionally gave them that right considering the circumstances.


Ultimately, it is the will of the people pressuring their senator representatives on what the outcome will be. 


And the framers provided that a sentence less than removal, like censure, could be the result if convicted.

I said that and more.
quoting myself.
'What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?  And notice that this time I said the democrats, I did not say the House because not one Republican went along with this obvious hit job, as a matter of fact one of the democrats was so disgusted that he is leaving the democratic party, which is in the house majority, to join the house minority! Which is no small thing.... What does that tell us? ''

And again I agree with you the impeachment had already been decided. Two and one half years ago according to Nancy P.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 05:13:08 pm
Remember that Clinton was guilty of perjury and the senators did not remove him.
Apparently perjury was not deemed a HIGH crime, just a crime.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 05:21:19 pm
Remember that Clinton was guilty of perjury and the senators did not remove him.
Apparently perjury was not deemed a HIGH crime, just a crime.

I see your point but tell that to Roger Stone, who is facing the rest of his life in prison for the charge of perjury, as he went back the second day after testifying before congress an amended his inaccuracy after his testimony. Which is legal and means he did not purger himself. Next came his trial,  go back at look at who was on the jury and their background. Astonishing!




.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2019, 06:32:00 pm
Quote
So I do not know if it is too soon to charge him with obstruction at this point in time. Legal precedent is not on his side.

As far as exerting executive privilege goes, the precedent is on his side.  If the House had decided to go to court and then he'd not followed the ruling that would have been different.  Obstruction of Congress by a president claiming executive privilege is not a thing.  If it was, every president would be guilty.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 20, 2019, 11:02:40 pm
As far as exerting executive privilege goes, the precedent is on his side.  If the House had decided to go to court and then he'd not followed the ruling that would have been different.  Obstruction of Congress by a president claiming executive privilege is not a thing.  If it was, every president would be guilty.
I am not convinced that you have this right, nor do I claim to have expertise in this area.
I am basing my understanding partially on the following 31 page document and the opinion in US v. Nixon (partially reproduced therein).
Sorry about the font size and line breaks. Read the intro and conclusion in the document.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R42670.pdf (https://fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R42670.pdf)Presidential Claims of Executive Privilege: History, Law, Practice, and RecentDevelopmentsTodd Garvey, Legislative AttorneyDecember 15, 2014Litigation over the scope of executive privilege in direct relation to congressional oversight and investigations has also been quite limited. In total, there have been only four cases dealing with executive privilege in the context of information access disputes between Congress and the executive,and only two of those resulted in decisions on the merits.Indeed, the Supreme Court has never addressed executive privilege in the face of a congressional demand for informationConcluding ObservationsAs indicated in the above discussion, recent appellate court rulings may cast doubt on the broad claims of privilege posited by the executive branch in the past. Taken together, Espyand Judicial Watcharguably have effected important qualifications and restraints on the nature, scope, and reach of the presidential communications privilege. As established by those cases, and until reviewed by the Supreme Court, the following elements should be considered in determining when the privilege can be invoked properly: The communication must be authored or ?solicited and received? by a close White House adviseror the President. The judicial test requires that an adviserbe in ?operational proximity? to the President. This effectively means that the scope of the presidential communications privilege can extend only to the administrative boundaries of the Executive Officeof the President and the White House. It appears not to apply to communications or documents wholly produced within an executive department or agency.2.The presidential communications privilege maybe limited to communications relating to a ?quintessentialand non-delegable presidential power.? Espyand Judicial Watchinvolved the appointment and removal and the pardon powers, respectively. Other core, direct presidential decision-making powers include the Commander-in-Chief power, the sole authority to receive ambassadors and other public ministers, and the power to negotiate treaties. However, neither case explicitly stated that the presidential communications privilege could only apply to communications and documents relating to ?quintessential and non-delegable presidential power.? 3.The presidential communications privilege remains a qualified privilege that may be overcome by a showing that the information sought ?likely contains important evidence? and cannot be obtained from other sources. The Espycourt found an adequate showing of need by the Independent Counsel that overcame the privilege. In Judicial Watch, the court found the presidential communications privilege did not apply, and remanded to the district court to determine if the deliberative process privilege would apply to specific documents. Definitively applying the te
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on December 22, 2019, 02:58:07 pm
Consider the following:

In the house of cards; Pelosi believes she has drawn a high Trump card. Some think that at best she has a low Trump card and further some others believe she has only a high sluff card she is bluffing off of.  Unless someone is able to force her hand and draw it out, there can be no knowing which card she has.  Someone needs to play another Trump card to pull on her and see who wins the trick.

It appears to me that she is playing the long game. Hoping to hold out and win the last trick on the table. What this will look like is she will likely hold onto the articles until after Trump is re-elected, then will try to have him removed from office in his 2nd term. She may perhaps even have to hold on until after the next Senate elections.  She can hope for enough seat changes in the senate, drawing out those other Trump cards, so she can safely play her high Stuff to win the Trick.

So the two questions are:   How can one force her hand to play her card?  Is there a time limitation for how long impeachment can be stalled in process?  Can it hang out there for 10 years, 50 years, 1000 years, ... ?  Or is there something that says it must proceed within xx days/months from one stage to the next?   If there is no such time limitation, this whole experience exposes a serious flaw in the process, thus presenting opportunities for strategic political manipulation - the likes of which is currently occurring.

Food for thought .......
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 22, 2019, 03:19:30 pm
HP,
You are on the right track.


The 6th amendment requires a speedy trial in a criminal prosecution so not helpful in this analysis.

Each governmental division gets to set its own rules in exercising its powers.


So....does the senate choose another nuclear option in modifying its rules to do an end run against whatever stalling tactics she employs? Or does she simply rescind last weeks action and reenact at another date?

It only proves that this is all politically motivated on her part.

 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 22, 2019, 03:41:40 pm
Quote
I am not convinced that you have this right, nor do I claim to have expertise in this area.

A president can claim executive privilege, but a court may over-rule that claim.  This happened with Nixon.  Where the current House thing is different is that they chose not to go to court.  If they are not willing to do that, then they can't force him to turn over those things for which he has claimed privilege. 
Their reasoning for not going to court was that it would take to long and Trump was an immediate danger.  NPs actions seem to have negated that argument.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on December 22, 2019, 04:09:39 pm
Consider the following:

 Hoping to hold out and win the last trick on the table. What this will look like is she will likely hold onto the articles until after Trump is re-elected, then will try to have him removed from office in his 2nd term. She may perhaps even have to hold on until after the next Senate elections.  She can hope for enough seat changes in the senate, drawing out those other Trump cards, so she can safely play her high Stuff to win the Trick.


So right now the impeachment will go no where. The debate is not if he will get convicted but rather if they will just simply 'vote' rather than try him. The thought is that no witness will even be called.
You are thinking that if the Dems win the senate they can roll that out on their last day and the tide will be in total reverse (or exactly the same).
That is a clever statement HP, starting to sound like a chess game.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on December 22, 2019, 04:20:42 pm


We don't have to guess at the medias leanings.

If your source of news is the 6pm nightly, then yes, you have been lied to.  There is no kinder way to put it.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who never question what they are told by those talking heads.  I get it. 

I think the talking heads average that Trump averages 5.5 lies per day. As far as I know he has doubled down on most.
Do you question what is being said to you from the talking turnip?
I hung out with a bunch of fishermen. You know which of them has caught the biggest fish the last weekend before the door opens. I do not trust his report to decide on which bait to purchase, what depth or even which river. It does not make them bad, just not reliable source of information.

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 22, 2019, 06:04:48 pm
You are right, Minz. When all you hear are lies from all directions, the best you can do is look at the recent past results. If you look at what has happened to income, jobs, net worths, increased freedoms and fewer restrictions, more fair application of laws across the board, ETC. ETC. ETC., you have to side with Trump. His actions speak louder then his words, and their inactions speak louder than their words.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 22, 2019, 09:02:59 pm
Quote
I think the talking heads average that Trump averages 5.5 lies per day. As far as I know he has doubled down on most.

But you are getting your stats from the people who have been caught over and over in lies.

One of sites that I actually like had to put out an article this week about how their own trustability has suffered because of some of their reporting on the FISA abuses.  At least a few are starting to wake up, but there are still too many on places like CNN and MSNBC who are openly partisan, don't care about facts, and often openly lie.  There are too many people still getting info from those sources. 

That is not to say that you are incorrect about some of the things Trump has said, but there is a big difference between insisting incorrectly that a crowd size is bigger than it was, and lying about things like FBI malfeasance and Russia collusion. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 23, 2019, 02:34:32 am
Quote
I am not convinced that you have this right, nor do I claim to have expertise in this area.

A president can claim executive privilege, but a court may over-rule that claim.  This happened with Nixon.  Where the current House thing is different is that they chose not to go to court.  If they are not willing to do that, then they can't force him to turn over those things for which he has claimed privilege. 
Their reasoning for not going to court was that it would take to long and Trump was an immediate danger.  NPs actions seem to have negated that argument.

The legislature goes to the court for enforcement, not permission. And even then, the judiciary would rather not arbitrate the resolution between the other two equal branches of government but would prefer that the other two equal branches worked it out among themselves.


The reason for not going to court is that the Democrats did not want the remedy since the infraction was already committed. Why let him off the hook? It is better to have the infraction unresolved so impeachment articles could be approved.



In US v. Nixon the court ruled that the executive branch of government has executive privilege on a subset of its documents - not all of its documents.  Certain documents  were requested from executive by judiciary to prove wrong doings of others in fulfillment of judicial's constitutional authority to preside over the criminal trials. Unfortunately for Nixon, those documents contained information implicating Nixon as well as the others subject of the request.


Just because the legislative branch can presumably get a judgement enforcing its right to the documents it requested (like judiciary did in Nixon), does not mean that the legislature's constitutionally granted authority has not been obstructed by the executive noncompliance to date. There is no doubt that executive branch has obstructed the legislative branch's authority to investigate.




Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on December 23, 2019, 09:00:18 am
there is a big difference between insisting incorrectly that a crowd size is bigger than it was
A liar is a liar.  They can't help themselves.  In their mind they did not lie so they continue unobstructed from the truth.  What blows my mind is that the followers do the same even when it is black and white.  I can't explain that.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 23, 2019, 09:43:41 am
""They can't help themselves.""

"They" being all politicians, of all parties and all levels, from township on up.

So why try to segregate one group into it and leave out all the others? That in itself is a lie.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 23, 2019, 11:24:01 am
Quote
Just because the legislative branch can presumably get a judgement enforcing its right to the documents it requested (like judiciary did in Nixon), does not mean that the legislature's constitutionally granted authority has not been obstructed by the executive noncompliance to date. There is no doubt that executive branch has obstructed the legislative branch's authority to investigate.

They have been obstructed in their desires.  They have not been obstructed in a legal way because the president, being one branch of government, has the right to claim executive privilege.  The Congress then has the right to go to the 3rd branch and seek a remedy.  They chose not to do that, they even chose not to subpoena or withdraw the subpoenas for those they wished to hear from.   I am not sure what the court would have done with that.  They can't enforce what has not been issued.

If you can find Turleys testimony this was the point he was making.  Congress does not have more power than the other branches and if they claim it, they are committing abuse of power. 




Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 23, 2019, 12:21:41 pm

> They chose not to do that, they even chose not to subpoena or withdraw the subpoenas for those they wished to hear from. They can't enforce what has not been issued. <
I was not aware of this. That changes my view regarding the obstruction article. 

I do not know if Turley contradicted the following, or if anything changed over the past 5 years since 12/15/2014 when the below referenced paper was issued. I only saw small portions of that day's hearings.

FYI -

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R42670.pdf

Presidential claims of a right to preserve the confidentiality of information and documents in the face of legislative demands have figured prominently, though intermittently, in executive-congressional relations since at least 1792. Few such inter-branch disputes over access to information have reached the courts for substantive resolution. The vast majority of these disputes are resolved through political negotiation and accommodation. In fact, it was not until the Watergate-related lawsuits in the 1970s seeking access to President Nixon?s tapes that the existence of a presidential confidentiality privilege was judicially established as a necessary derivative of the President?s status in our constitutional scheme of separated powers. There have been only four cases involving information access disputes between Congress and the executive, and two of these resulted in decisions on the merits. The Nixon and post-Watergate cases established the broad contours of the presidential communications privilege. Under those precedents, the privilege, which is constitutionally rooted, could be invoked by the President when asked to produce documents or other materials or information that reflect presidential decision making and deliberations that he believes should remain confidential. If the President asserts the privilege, the materials become presumptively privileged. The privilege, however, is qualified, not absolute, and can be overcome by an adequate showing of need. Finally, while reviewing courts have expressed reluctance in balancing executive privilege claims against a congressional demand for information, they have acknowledged they will do so if the political branches have tried, in good faith, but failed to reach an accommodation.
[/font]***
[/font]Supreme Court decisions have left considerable gaps in the law of presidential privilege. Among the more significant issues left open include whether the President must have actually seen or been familiar with the disputed matter; whether the presidential privilege encompasses documents and information developed by, or in the possession of, officers and employees in the departments and agencies of the executive branch, outside of the Executive Office of the President; whether the privilege encompasses all communications with respect to which the President may be interested or is confined to presidential decision making and, if so, whether it is limited to a particular type of presidential decision making; and precisely what kind of demonstration of need must be shown to overcome the privilege and compel disclosure of the materials. The District of Columbia Circuit?s 1997 ruling in In re Sealed Case (Espy), and its 2004 decision in Judicial Watch v. Department of Justice, addressed many of these questions in a manner that may alter the future legal playing field in resolving such disputes. Moreover, two recent disputes between the executive branch and Congress over the removal of U.S. Attorneys during the George W. Bush Administration and the Department of Justice?s response to a congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious may provide further insight into the scope of executive privilege in the congressional oversight context.[/font]
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 23, 2019, 03:11:34 pm
I am not sure what argument you are trying to make, but thanks for the large print   :cheesy:

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on December 23, 2019, 11:35:46 pm
I am not sure what argument you are trying to make, but thanks for the large print   :cheesy:

No argument. Just sharing what I found.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on December 24, 2019, 04:16:59 am
U.S. Constitution, Article II, section 4 states,
The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.?

In  this particular case the President was accused of quid pro quo by some in congress as stated by Adam Schiff when standing before congress, quoting the conversation between The President  of the Untied States of America and President of Ukraine as Schiff was quoting directly to congress and for all the world to hear a total pack of made up lies and accusations, false accusations, lies, and quotes. This accusal was PROVEN to be a made up pack of lies as shown by the cleverness of our President providing transcripts of the very same conversation that schiffs whistle blower made up and schiff so eagerly portrayed and play acted well! Let us give schiff credit, he played it as well as, or better than John Wilks Booth could have play acted a make believe script! Immediately, any honorable person, should have, would have proven himself to be honorable and, would have exposed the lying whistle blower and brought forth charges of treason.
Shift did not do so but double downed of impeachment anyway. Impeachment  was the only. matter that the do nothing Democrats seemed to be interested in accomplishing. Holding secret meeting in the bottom of The Capital basement. Sneaking, conniving, colluding steady forward as she goes, trying to build a case against the president. Even though their case was weak as water as evidence had been provided by our Patriotic President in the form of the authentic transcript proving he had committed no high crime or Misdemeanor as originally set forth by his accusers. The lack of evidence against the president was there for all the world to see and hear for themselves via the actual transcript of the conversation.  Even so, the kangaroo court went on. The word bribery was floating around next as the new word of choice and quid pro quo was dropped like a hot potato. Witness after witness was called to testify by and for the Democrats, disallowing republicans to call one single witness as requested. Even still not even one witness could verify a single high crime or misdemeanor against the president. This was an open and shut case yet the democrats, all but one, voted to impeach 45 anyway. Just as the Roman senate did to Julius Cesar destroyed him physically. The Democrats are attempting to politically destroy our President. Thieves of deplorable origins in my opinion and apparently the opinion 63 million others. Patriots... 



.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on December 24, 2019, 11:51:29 am
Shiff's paraphrasing of the transcript was a proper interpretation of trumps released transcript.  No, it did not use trumps words but did put trumps words into perspective.  Every one can read it for themselves and see this is true.  It is just a way to muddy the waters to say shift should have used the exact words rather than putting trumps words into perspective.  It would be better for trumps defenders to defend or put a different perspective on the transcript rather then just call shiff a lair.  When I read it, I think shift got it right and then with all the testimony or others, it becomes even clearer.  The best defense I have heard from republicans so far is that trump had mueller on his mind and so little self control that he was just blabbing about what was on his mind and he should be forgiven for that.  That might be fine had he not let giuliana go on tv and tell of all the resources put behind the "looking" adding more then just blabbing to the story.

So it still comes down to every one really knowing what trump really did and either thinking it is ok cause they are convinced every one else does the same and they are ok with that or it is wrong.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 24, 2019, 12:10:31 pm
You're right, gww. Adolf Shitt did it the democrat way.

""A professional genealogical researcher, discovered that Hillary Clinton's great uncle, Remus Rodham, a fellow lacking in moral character, was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889. The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows. On the back of the picture is this inscription: "Remus Rodham; horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885, escaped 1887, and robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889."

The researcher e-mailed Hillary Clinton for comments. Hillary's staff of professional image adjusters cropped Remus' picture, scanned it, enlarged the image, and edited it with image processing software so that all that's seen is a head shot. The accompanying biographical sketch was as follows:

"Remus Rodham was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory. His business empire grew to include the acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad. Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to service at a government facility, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the Railroad. In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed.""
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on December 24, 2019, 12:53:04 pm
Hi Iddee
 :grin:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 24, 2019, 02:04:18 pm
Merry Christmas, gww. Glad to see you back.   :smile:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 24, 2019, 02:18:55 pm
Quote
Shiff's paraphrasing of the transcript was a proper interpretation of trumps released transcript.

Even if you were to believe that, he read it into the official transcript with no context.  It was HIS interpretation meant for the majority of people who would be too lazy to fact check him. 
I have watched hearings and then watched him come out a lie about the hearings that were just televised.  He was the wrong person to lead those hearings.  He is not trusted by anyone because they all know he will lie when the truth would serve him.

His opinion is his, but what he did is not defensible. 

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: herbhome on December 24, 2019, 11:13:20 pm
That one was really good, Iddee.  :grin: Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on December 25, 2019, 05:49:14 am
Merry Christmas
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on December 25, 2019, 01:43:31 pm
>Shiff's paraphrasing of the transcript was a proper interpretation of trumps released transcript. 

Not even in the ball park.  I found it interesting when Nancy Pelosi was on Anderson Cooper and she kept quoting Shiff's "parody" and Anderson Cooper kept trying to correct her and she kept insisting that was exactly what Trump said.  It was deceitful and the impact of that deceit continues to this day.  Some people still think that was what was said.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on December 25, 2019, 02:30:12 pm
Michael
Have you read the transcript in a fashion where you were trying to access why the things that were said were being said and put that to the actions going on around the conversation to assess intent to even bring up the subject matter in the conversation?
It does not take much common sense to see intent around the transcript conversation.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on December 25, 2019, 08:16:17 pm
>It does not take much common sense to see intent around the transcript conversation.

I think it's obvious that the president was doing his job.  Trying to investigate corruption that has already taken place at the HIGHEST levels of our government and trying to find the connections (which have been widely publicized if you don't just listen to the left news) between interference in our election and the Ukrainian government.  I think if he did NOT investigate he would be negligent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUV8exUwnIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xxTco4_d_k

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on December 25, 2019, 10:27:18 pm
I agree with nancy in the second video and also don't think the president was worried about corruption and would not be doing his job if he did not ask in the way he did.  Every one knows the president.  The president has given no inclination that he gives a hoot about any corruption unless it directly affects him personally.  He says the call is perfect.  His intent on caring about this corruption by virtue of it affecting him personally is understandable but the selfishness of giving it so much credence and using the force of the government for something so personal and out side of normal channels is not something we really should want all officials to do.
You give him more credit then he gives anyone but himself.  He is more then willing to want to put everybody in the opposing party in jail and like his bertha facts will not let the truth get in the way but thinks he is above reproach.  He can go after Hillary for a year over emails and then say his daughter is fine and use a unsecured cell phone.   What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

He says the democrats hate him and that is the only reason he is being impeached.  Maybe they do hate him but that is also their job and he was dumb enough to give them something to get their teeth into. 

He deserves about the same amount of mercy that he has shown to others.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 25, 2019, 11:21:44 pm
Quote
Have you read the transcript in a fashion where you were trying to access why the things that were said were being said and put that to the actions going on around the conversation to assess intent to even bring up the subject matter in the conversation?
It does not take much common sense to see intent around the transcript conversation.

If the transcript made the point there was no reason for Schiff to do his interpretation.  There certainly was no reason for him to do it without context and in a formal setting.  He should have saved it for SNL.  There is no excuse for what he did.

Quote
He says the democrats hate him and that is the only reason he is being impeached.  Maybe they do hate him but that is also their job and he was dumb enough to give them something to get their teeth into.

Since they have been talking about impeaching him from the day he took office, they really didn't need much prompting.  Mueller didn't work out for them so they invented this. 
What is interesting to me is that the very same people who wish to impeach this president over a phone call that in the grand scheme of things is nothing, allowed the last president to do some blatantly unconstitutional things and never raised an eyebrow.

The good thing is that this has turned into a CF for the dems and I am enjoying it.



Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on December 25, 2019, 11:41:36 pm
kathy
For those that watched enough and already knew what the transcript said prior to shiff, Shiff's statement about it put it into a context that everyone had already understood.  I realize that many do not pay that much attention (myself included many times) and so his statement was the first they knew about the transcript, it may have came off as you say.  However, even though on tv, shiff was talking to the congress who all did have prior access to the transcript and so his paraphrasing it should have made perfect sense to them.  That is probably why in the beginning the republicans in the house talked more about shiff instead of their new position that defends the call, sort of, now.  It is only recently that some of them say the call its self was ok. 
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on December 26, 2019, 08:26:54 am
gww welcome to the debate.  I am sure you realize that you are outnumbered but I know you are a fighter.  Merry Christmas btw and interested in how your bees are doing in other threads.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on December 26, 2019, 08:31:16 am
The good thing is that this has turned into a CF for the dems and I am enjoying it.
Correcting force.  Me too.
Kathy, you should leave your code words for the military if you want to get your message across to the GP.  LOL
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on December 26, 2019, 09:31:50 am
Ace,
Kathy knows she cannot spell that one out and it sure isn?t Correcting Force.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on December 26, 2019, 11:15:53 am
Quote
athy knows she cannot spell that one out and it sure isn?t Correcting Force.

 :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Michael Bush on December 26, 2019, 07:09:58 pm
>He says the democrats hate him and that is the only reason he is being impeached.

Since they declared the fight to impeach him on the day of the election (and a few of them before the election) this is OBVIOUSLY true.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on January 12, 2020, 05:32:53 pm
>He says the democrats hate him and that is the only reason he is being impeached.

Since they declared the fight to impeach him on the day of the election (and a few of them before the election) this is OBVIOUSLY true.
But as to the original premise.....YES
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 12, 2020, 05:48:47 pm
impeachment, yes.
Conviction, not in a hundred years.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 12, 2020, 06:16:07 pm
What is reassuring is that the founding fathers designed a system built to foil the ill intent of men. That is why powers of impeachment were given to one branch of the legislature and the powers of trial given to the other. Let us hope the system works as they intended.

I read the Federalist Papers during my time away from the computer. It is a long tough read, but it is somewhat comforting in that what we are living through currently was contemplated by the members of the constitutional convention.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 13, 2020, 09:31:12 am
what we are living through currently was contemplated by the members of the constitutional convention.
What about the part that the senators take an oath to be impartial for the trial.  You want to pick and choose the words in the constitution that favors your choice and ignore the rest?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 13, 2020, 09:40:34 am
What about the part that the representatives take an oath to be impartial for the hearing?  You want to pick and choose the words in the constitution that favors your choice and ignore the rest?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 13, 2020, 01:39:35 pm
Quote
What about the part that the senators take an oath to be impartial for the trial.

Yes, if the democrats in the senate are impartial, they will vote to acquit.  I don't expect them to be impartial, do you?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 13, 2020, 01:43:48 pm
Quote
What about the part that the senators take an oath to be impartial for the trial.

Yes, if the democrats in the senate are impartial, they will vote to acquit.  I don't expect them to be impartial, do you?

Also - if the dems in the house were impartial, they would have called all pertinent witnesses, opened the proceedings to the other party, and would have ended the process with no articles of impeachment  ... and we wouldn't be where we are now.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on January 13, 2020, 02:43:12 pm
If the dems in the house were impartial, there would never have been any hearings about this what so ever. It was all political a coverup of their own actions.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on January 13, 2020, 03:11:34 pm
I felt it would never get this far.  Pelosi's interviews this weekend led me to believe it was more of a vindictive act than anything else.  Not the way I imagined the loyal opposition behaving.  This has been a colossal waste of tax payer money.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 13, 2020, 04:16:27 pm
jvalentour
Quote
This has been a colossal waste of tax payer money.

A colossal waste of tax payer money is having air force jets stopping at a private air port to fuel up so the pilots can stay at a trump hotel.  Or, sending your old gov all the way across Ireland so he can stay in a trump property
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on January 13, 2020, 04:44:42 pm
The pilots were staying at Trump's Property in Scotland long before he became President.  Only turned into an issue when the haters found out.

I suppose you think Pelosi's antics are worth the money.  She will achieve nothing.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 13, 2020, 05:28:09 pm
Quote
A colossal waste of tax payer money is having air force jets stopping at a private air port to fuel up so the pilots can stay at a trump hotel.  Or, sending your old gov all the way across Ireland so he can stay in a trump property

The government sets the rates it will pay for things.  If a property does not offer itself for those rates it is not used.  Since those pilots, etc. have to stay and fuel somewhere, there is no loss to the taxpayer.  There might be a loss to the property for meeting government rates though.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 13, 2020, 09:49:00 pm
You want to pick and choose the words in the constitution that favors your choice and ignore the rest?

No, I do not.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on January 15, 2020, 05:55:32 pm
Articles of impeachment went to the senate today. I guess the answer to the title of this thread is yup.
I do believe that he is innocent. The only reason the democrats are doing this is because he is so great that they are worried that he will fix absolutely everything and we can not have that.
Ha Ha ha. Lets all watch fox news together!

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 15, 2020, 06:25:21 pm
DANG, Minz has finnally woke up to the real world.  WUNDERBAR
 :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on January 16, 2020, 04:40:31 pm
 I do have to say you guys are making me start paying attention to politics just so I can come over here and give you a purple nurple.  When gardening and bee keeping weather improves, I will leave you guys to it.
I do love the intensity
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on January 16, 2020, 07:20:42 pm
I do have to say you guys are making me start paying attention to politics just so I can come over here and give you a purple nurple.  When gardening and bee keeping weather improves, I will leave you guys to it.
I do love the intensity

 :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 21, 2020, 07:50:54 pm
Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Have we learned anything new today?

I would rather stick needles in my eyes than to continue watching how our representatives waste time.

Are we into the trial already? It seems that way. How many more times are these handful of facts going to be repeated? The house hearings have been recorded for history.


Are there any Senators who are hearing this for the first time? I hope not.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 21, 2020, 08:09:28 pm
Quote
I would rather stick needles in my eyes than to continue watching how our representatives waste time.


I wasted several days watching and listening to the house testimony.  I was waiting for the bombshell that never came.  Not wasting time on this Senate stuff. 

Do let me know if I am missing anything!   :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 22, 2020, 10:13:53 am
The house hearings have been recorded for history.
And so is this bogus Senate trial and the oath taken by every senator.  I keep coming back to how Hitler came to power.  I could never understand how and now I know.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 22, 2020, 10:18:16 am
Allegiance to party unfortunately wins over allegiance to country.
We need a third and fourth strong political party to break this gridlock.
Lots of shame to go around in Washington. These are sad times.
 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 22, 2020, 12:14:03 pm
. .. We need a third and fourth strong political party to break this gridlock...

I was always taught that "splitting the vote" (adding a 3rd or 4th or etc candidate to an election) could have devastating consequences - i.e. this is the best way to end up with a real dictator - because this is when a small, but strong faction of the population (extremists from any side) can get "their" candidate and ajenda pushed on to the entire country.

... Lots of shame to go around in Washington. These are sad times.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 22, 2020, 01:12:01 pm
Quote
We need a third and fourth strong political party to break this gridlock.

We have them.  We have Libertarians, Greens, and many more.  Here is a list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States

Because of the way our vote counting is set up, a 3rd party would either have to run a candidate strong enough and funded enough to overtake an R or D candidate.  If you want multiple party participation we need to change to a parliamentary system.  Third party candidates are not wtihout influence.  They run in, and win, state and congressional seats. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on January 22, 2020, 04:53:35 pm
which one does Bloomberg belong to? :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 22, 2020, 05:10:33 pm
Quote
which one does Bloomberg belong to?

Depends on the day.   :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 23, 2020, 09:02:35 am
We need a third and fourth strong political party to break this gridlock.
I think we need a no party system that is divorced from corporate contributions and influence.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 06:48:25 pm
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/what-impeachment-managers-in-trumps-senate-trial-seem-to-be-forgetting-debbie-lesko


 It seems the seven impeachment managers have conveniently forgotten many of the facts surrounding their deeply flawed case for impeachment. They began by crying out for witnesses, witnesses they could have called in the House, and asking the Senate to do their job for them. As they made their opening arguments, they left out key information and used cherry-picked quotes and video clips. When we look at the facts the Democrats seem to be forgetting, it could not be more clear that this sham of an impeachment is nothing more than a political hit job against President Trump.

There are four inconvenient?but key?facts that haven?t changed since this impeachment hoax began.

    The call transcript shows zero link between aid and political investigations. (And remember, President Trump declassified and released the transcript all on his own.) 
    The aid was released without any commitment to new investigations. 
    Ukraine did not know aid was withheld at the time of the July 25 phone call. 
    President Trump and President Zelensky have both repeatedly said that there was no pressure. In fact, there are multiple Ukrainian officials on the record saying there was no pressure and no link between the aid and investigations.

Funny how these all seem to have been forgotten by the impeachment managers.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 06:49:10 pm
On the second day, Democrats began their opening arguments. They focused much of their attention on Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland. What they neglected to mention from his testimony is that Sondland admitted he has no evidence that President Trump was tying aid to political investigations other than his presumptions. In fact, Sondland testified that President Trump told him, ?I want nothing, I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo.? Democrats conveniently left that part out, and the parts where former National Security Council Adviser Tim Morrison and former U.S. Ambassador to NATO Kurt Volker testified there was no quid pro quo, bribery, or extortion. So all the Democrats have is hearsay and presumptions?very convenient for the Democrats to leave this part out while making their case.

Democrats also seem to forget that their own witnesses have already testified under oath that corruption in Ukraine is very concerning and that the Trump Administration has done more for Ukraine than the Obama Administration ever did. Obama gave Ukraine blankets; President Trump gave the Ukrainians lethal aid and a real ability to defend themselves. It is also important to point out that in the House, four of these impeachment managers recently voted against giving Ukraine any aid at all.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 06:52:42 pm
And while Democrats have been pursuing their baseless impeachment against President Trump, he has never stopped working for the American people. He announced a historic Phase One Trade Agreement with China, the USMCA is moving forward, and evil terrorist Qassem Soleimani has been eliminated. All of this while maintaining the lowest average unemployment rate in recorded history. It is easy to tell who is really working on behalf of the American people.

Perhaps the most telling part of this entire sham is that the crimes Democrats are alleging never even made it into the actual articles of impeachment they passed. The only abuse of power here has been from the Democrats. The Democrat party has weaponized impeachment into a political tool because they cannot accept that their own failed candidate did not win the 2016 election. So now they are rushing to impeach with another election just months away. Perhaps the Democrats should stop obstructing Congress and return to working on behalf of the American people, rather than working so hard to influence?and interfere in?the 2020 election.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 07:16:11 pm
Iddee
I guess fox news has been watching a different impeachment trial then I have.  There are falsehoods in their assertions above but I am too lazy to go through them all.  As far as I am concerned, If I were a congressman or a senator, I would impeach him for defying my request for info.  If I didn't. then there is really no need for congressional oversight cause oversight is impossible if request are not responded to.  If I were a legislator, I would feel this way even if he was innocent on the abuse of power which he is not.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 07:31:30 pm
Glad you are so well informed, gww. All I have is the news. I'm not privileged to a crystal ball as you seem to be.

PS. If withholding info was a removable crime, there would be no one in Washington to do the trials.

The same goes for abuse of powers.

How you can accuse him of that after watching the dems for the last few months, I'll never understand. I don't think even Hitler's abuse of power matches theirs. They had already started the impeachment plans before he was ever inaugurated. How can you excuse garbage like that?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 07:46:45 pm
iddee
Quote
They had already started the impeachment plans before he was ever inaugurated. How can you excuse garbage like that?
Trump knew they were going to watch him and was still so stupid that he did what he did.    How can you excuse garbage like that? :happy:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 08:05:52 pm
That's what I'm asking you. They were going to do it no matter what he did. No President in your or my lifetime has done 1/2 the good he has done in his first 3 years. They just can't stand it, and their sheeple are following right along. Sometimes I simply feel sorry for such simple sheeple. The dem women seem to have bigger gonads then the men.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 08:26:19 pm
Iddee
Quote
That's what I'm asking you. They were going to do it no matter what he did.
It is not a good defense to say that since they are looking anyway, I am just going to do something wrong.  They are going to blame me anyway, I will just go ahead and do it.

To your other point.  Tim Mcvey joined the military maybe out of patriotism which most consider a good thing but that does not excuse bombing the world trade.  You should get the credit for good things but doing good things does not give licences to do bad.
President Trump is like most presidents to me.  I like some things and I don't like some.  I don't like his suing to get rid of pre-exsisting conditions on health care.  He has not done that good in my eyes on many subjects but has on a few if I can believe it which is hard cause I don't trust him and can not count on things he says.  I like guns. 

Still, he would put every one he doesn't like in jail if he could and so he should not be doing stuff wrong that is so easy to see that he did it.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  He did do what he did for himself and not for the country and he would deserve it if they removed him.
Why would I have faith in somebody who says they are looking and so I am going to do something wrong for them to find.  Doesn't seem like that deserve a response that he is so smart and that is why I should follow him.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 08:50:37 pm
You just refuse to see. If a dem peed on the street, they would give him a 25.00 ticket for public urination.
If Trump did it, they would give him life for trying to contaminate the whole state's drinking water.

NO, he didn't do wrong just because they were watching. He is doing what they should have done long ago, but were too stupid to do it. Now he is doing it and they are seeing their stupidity and trying to hide it from the citizens..
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 08:53:39 pm
Iddee
Trump only acted as he did for personal reasons, he did not do what he did for you or the country. Period. 
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 09:17:44 pm
You poor soul. Trump is worth over a billion dollars less now then when he was elected. Please stop believing all that garbage Ace is spitting out on here.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 09:39:00 pm
Iddee
Quote
You poor soul. Trump is worth over a billion dollars less now then when he was elected. Please stop believing all that garbage Ace is spitting out on here.

If that is a good argument, Maybe you should vote for mike bloomberg.  He is going to spend more then trump lost just trying to win.  I wouldn't know if trump lost or ever had a billion.  I wouldn't know if he is not making money that I don't know about while being president.  I would not make somebody a dictator cause he was willing to give his money away.  He might be like mike and have that much to give away with out it affecting him.  If me and trump both get a speeding ticket, should I have to pay two hundred and him have to pay nothing cause he already gave so much money away?  I am sure it does work that way at times.  If I was on trial, I would get one lawyer and OJ can have five.  If he does not do wrong then he should get credit for his donation (if even true).  It is not a license to do what you want though.

Just curious, what does that have to do with right or wrong? :cheesy:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 24, 2020, 10:06:54 pm
Quote
If I were a congressman or a senator, I would impeach him for defying my request for info.  If I didn't. then there is really no need for congressional oversight cause oversight is impossible if request are not responded to

You'd have to impeach every president that I can think of.  They are co-equal branches of government and if one does not want to do something then the courts are the recourse.  The house chose not to take that route because it was so important to get this done fast!!  So Nancy could sit on it. 

Abuse of power is not a thing.  It is a subjective call.  Every opposing side accuses the other of abuse of power.  Again, if it was a thing that was impeachable, every president would have been impeached. 

Quote
Trump knew they were going to watch him and was still so stupid that he did what he did.

Who are they?  Since impeachment was brought up even as he was taking the oath of office he could have allowed the idea to paralyze him.  He made a phone call.  It was not a perfect call.  It was not an impeachable call.  It was just a flipping phone call.  The reason the left latched on to it is because the Mueller bit had failed.  They had to do something after promising they would, didn't they?  Nancy knew better. 

Quote
Still, he would put every one he doesn't like in jail if he could and so he should not be doing stuff wrong that is so easy to see that he did it. 

Can you cite a source for this? 

Quote
He did do what he did for himself and not for the country and he would deserve it if they removed him.

opinion.  Unless you know what was in his heart and head...and you are welcome to your opinion. 
Quote
Tim Mcvey joined the military maybe out of patriotism which most consider a good thing but that does not excuse bombing the world trade.  You should get the credit for good things but doing good things does not give licences to do bad.

Are you actually comparing a phone call to blowing up a building and killing a bunch of people?   :cheesy:

Quote
If that is a good argument, Maybe you should vote for mike bloomberg.

He wants you guns   :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 10:29:17 pm
Kathy
Quote
He made a phone call.  It was not a perfect call.
Of course it was not just a call. 
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2020, 10:34:53 pm
""Trump only acted as he did for personal reasons,""

The only personal reasons I can think of would be money, and I blew that one out of the water. What personal reasons do you think he did it for?

""Trump is worth over a billion dollars less now then when he was elected""

Mike hasn't lost or spent a penny since being  elected. Where did you get the idea he had been president?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 24, 2020, 11:16:21 pm
Iddee
I actually watched c-span coverage of the trial today.  This young collage kid called in and he was so wound up and shaking and seemed like he was about to cry cause they were trying to take away his president.
That aint me.  I think he did wrong outside of whether his being there or not will help me the most.  I will live through it all and most likely not have much change in my life anyway.  I vote my conscious and lose all the time and seem to live through it.  It is fun to discuss but since it is not my job, I have to be in the mood to type enough to counter every point that might come up.  I do not respect trump or trust trump at all but also would not take his job to try and fix it.  I am retired and don't mind thinking about it but wouldn't want it myself if it was handed to me on a silver platter.  I think they aught to remove him but will lose no sleep regardless.
I think his supporters would be trying to remove a democrat with these same facts, as they understand them now, if the shoe were on the other foot.   
Such is life.

My dad used to cut stay-bolts that they make whiskey barrels out of.  One time they were lobbying to make a law that barrels could not be used twice by the whiskey makers cause it affected the flavor.  Even though they drank plenty of whiskey, I do not believe they were so worried about the flavor that that is why they worked so hard on lobbying for the law. :happy:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 25, 2020, 09:24:12 am
Trump is worth over a billion dollars less now then when he was elected.
Wally you got a copy of his tax return?  Please share it.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 25, 2020, 09:42:50 am
Ace, I know I question your intelligence now and then, but I have NEVER thought you believed a billionaire filed a truthful tax return. Heck, my 4 year old great grand daughter knows better than that.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 25, 2020, 09:52:08 am
The entire process to date smells like rotting fish.
I have not witnessed a search for justice, whatever the outcome. This is not in the best interest of our country.

I have to give the Democrats some credit for playing their hand the best they could...even if it involved dealing from the bottom of the deck. I would not have used repetition to the extent that they did as part of my presentation strategy.

The managers have not proven to me (based on the live testimony I watched during the televised hearings held in the house) that Trump was acting solely for his benefit in the 2020 election regarding the investigation of Biden. However, IMHO the managers are playing this out for the Democrats benefit in the 2020 election. The managers did not give an honest presentation of that testimony.
Stay tuned. Let's see if the President' team can bring this up a notch or two in integrity.
What I am struggling with the most is the question whether the Democrats negotiated in good faith to get the information they are entitled to or if they gave Trump enough rope to hang himself with on the obstruction charge.


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 25, 2020, 11:39:28 am
Incognito
I would not have too much confidence in the defense.  The first thing out of their mouth was that democrats left out the president on the transcript saying that we gave more then everybody and was good to ukraine.  The transcript was on line with both sides saying read it.  Then they put a clip of adam shiff paraphrasing the transcript where he said "we been good to you, we gave more to you than every one".  To me, saying that something did not happen and then showing that it did would not be a great defense.  Now that is funny.

If they gave trump the rope, he was sure to hang himself.   Either way, were I in the senate, I would be reluctant to set any president that stripped power from myself and my ability to do my job.  Why run if I have no power to help.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2020, 12:14:44 pm
Quote
I would not have too much confidence in the defense.  The first thing out of their mouth was that democrats left out the president on the transcript saying that we gave more then everybody and was good to ukraine.  The transcript was on line with both sides saying read it.  Then they put a clip of adam shiff paraphrasing the transcript where he said "we been good to you, we gave more to you than every one".  To me, saying that something did not happen and then showing that it did would not be a great defense.  Now that is funny.

I think I made an assumption in error with you.  I assumed you had watched the house impeachment hearings.  If you think Schiff was paraphrasing, it is obvious you did not.  He made up what he read into the record.  In other words, he read a lie into the official record.  Pretty sure the house has some rules about that, but IDK what they are...

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 25, 2020, 12:34:12 pm
If I were presenting for the defense, I would certainly open and close with a montage of Shiff's documented lies and quantify the amount of time he spent speaking for the managers. Show the testimony from the house witnesses that he excluded which contradicted his presentation.

How can an objective person trust his words? How insulting to the intelligence of the audience! Big mistake by the Democrats. Likely fatal to the effort. That gives the Republicans all they need to vote against impeachment related to quid pro quo.
Then it all falls apart if the defense shows how the whole episode is a string of events done in bad faith starting with the investigation of the 2016 campaign.


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 25, 2020, 12:58:47 pm
Incognito
So far what you listed is the defense being used. 

On the rest, I read the transcript and believe shiff's paraphrasing got it correct and he said he was not reading the transcript which all the poeple on the committee already had access to.  We discussed this once before I believe kathy.  I don't hang out as much as I used to cause I am too lazy to keep up when getting into big discussions.  The older I get the harder is is to type.  Much easier just to watch tv.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on January 25, 2020, 01:15:17 pm
gww,
I suggest you educate yourself about Executive Privilege.  Please click on the link and read the Wiki article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_privilege

You should also know, in matters regarding disputes between the legislative branch and executive branch , the
Supreme Court will expedite a hearing.  Additionally, when a case is is presented to the Supreme Court only four Justices are needed to to accept the case.  I suspect Reps Schiff and Nadler knew they would not win a court challenge to the President's claim of Executive Privilege as they could not find four Justices to hear their case.

Had Shiff and Nadler pursued the correct action thru the Supreme Court, and been successful, then the current Impeachment Hearing would be legitimate.  As they are now, nothing but politics and abuse of power.

As others have repeatedly stated on this site.  The three branches of government are equals. 

And by the way, thank you for the edit.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2020, 01:33:30 pm
Quote
On the rest, I read the transcript and believe shiff's paraphrasing got it correct

I don't know how you got there, but if you don't mind just a little typing pull up the transcript of the call and compare it to what Schiff put into the record.

If the transcript was the problem, then there was no reason to lie...although he often lies when there is no reason to lie, so my argument may not be a good one.

Wait!  I"ll help you out.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/trump-ukraine-phone-call-transcript-text-pdf-1510770

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN4CJ8MYLTY
starts at 4:13
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 25, 2020, 01:58:43 pm
Yes kathy, I listen and can see how he can say this is the essence of what the transcript says.  When I read the transcript, this is also what it implys to me.  If I were to nit pick, I guess you could say when adam says don't call me, I will call you and in the transcript, trump says call me.  However, since the ukrane president mentions giuliani
in the transcript first, it shows that more conversations have went on in the background.  I think the context you leave out is the fact that shiff was reading the essence of what the transcript said to people that already had the transcript in their possession.  So it is disingenuous to say that adam shiff  was going to convince those congress men that what he said was what the transcript said.  My view is what he said was putting the meaning of the transcript into context.  I read and listened and think that taking the position that adam shiff was trying to do more then put perspective to what every one had rather then saying that he was reading the transcript is calling those who hear that as being too dumb or hoping they are too dumb to know what he was doing.  Who is really trying to mislead who.
If the detractors say I want to come to a different conclusion on what trump may have been doing, that would be fine.  To say adam changed the transcript when they all had a copy and calling him a liar about what it said is just smoke and mirrors.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2020, 02:22:04 pm
Quote
Yes kathy, I listen and can see how he can say this is the essence of what the transcript says.  When I read the transcript, this is also what it implys to me.

Essence = boiling down of facts
Implies = opinion

But hey, you know what they say about opinions.  We all have them   :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 25, 2020, 02:23:57 pm
Kathy
My point exactly. :wink:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 25, 2020, 02:57:47 pm
Incognito
So far what you listed is the defense being used. 

I did not know that it started early. I regret missing most of it. I saw about a half hour of it starting when they showed Schiff lying to the media.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2020, 03:04:22 pm

Quote
If that is a good argument, Maybe you should vote for mike bloomberg.

He wants you guns   :grin:

Well ... he can have them ... once I've no further use for them.  :cheesy: :cool:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2020, 03:14:53 pm
Ace, I know I question your intelligence now and then, but I have NEVER thought you believed a billionaire filed a truthful tax return. Heck, my 4 year old great grand daughter knows better than that.

Billionaires are under the highest scrutiny level there is. Of course they file truthful tax returns - they couldn't get away with not doing so. ... but ...

... Any billionaire that put their assets under their own name, and filed taxes on them as personal income - would be an idiot. ...

Our government wrote the tax laws. Our government wrote "loop holes" into the tax laws - on purpose. Anyone not using those loop holes - is giving money to the government that isn't owed. ... the government loves people like that.

Billionaires (and most other "rich") don't get rich or stay rich - without making full use of all aspects of the tax code. ... just ask the Clintons how a 501C works. (I could give MANY more examples). ...
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2020, 04:32:16 pm
Quote
Billionaires are under the highest scrutiny level there is. Of course they file truthful tax returns -

And they don't do their own taxes.  They hire people to find all those loopholes for them.  The rest of us have to find our own!   :grin:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 25, 2020, 04:53:28 pm
Cool, it may be different to you, but to me, deceit is just as untruthful as lies.
Hiding income is, in my opinion, untruthful.

So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2020, 08:26:39 pm
Cool, it may be different to you, but to me, deceit is just as untruthful as lies.
Hiding income is, in my opinion, untruthful.

So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

Iddee - when the government says you can deduct the payments on a Leased Vehicle from your profits on your tax forms - is that deceit? ... your still out the money.

You can deduct up to 15% (I think it is) from taxation if you give the money to [certain] charity(s) such as a church  - is that deceit? ... your still out the money.

Is moving to a "no personal income tax" state deceit? Or just good sense. (For instance to get away from California's 12.3% income tax).

Is giving bonuses to employees instead of giving the government taxes cheating? ... or morally superior, by taking care of the people that made the money.

Is funding a government approved Retirement Plan out of profits, for all employees (they earned that money) - instead of paying taxes on it - dishonest? ... not to me.

If the government gives tax exemptions on certain investments, is that "cheating on your taxes"? ... or smart with your money?

... I could fill up pages of questions - that I fail to see how they are dishonest in any way. Knowing the tax laws, and using them in the best possible way, isn't cheating, or dishonest, or lying - at least not that I can see.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2020, 08:38:54 pm
... So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

P.s. - I'm not sure why someone would hide expenses, or even want to - as this would cause one to pay more in taxes.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on January 25, 2020, 08:54:21 pm
... So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

P.s. - I'm not sure why someone would hide expenses, or even want to - as this would cause one to pay more in taxes.

I feel sure that if I am wrong iddee will gladly correct me. Some my hide expenses because said expenses may have been used for dirty work, such as providing money for meddling in an election, or seeking to overthrow a government for instance?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 25, 2020, 09:47:02 pm
I'll buy your house for 10 thousand dollars and slip you 60 thousand under the table. You spend it carefully and don't get caught. I can get rid of 60 thousand dirty money I got for getting that man a municipal contract and you can take a tax loss on your house rather than showing a profit.

Now do you understand?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2020, 09:48:44 pm
... So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

P.s. - I'm not sure why someone would hide expenses, or even want to - as this would cause one to pay more in taxes.

I feel sure that if I am wrong iddee will gladly correct me. Some my hide expenses because said expenses may have been used for dirty work, such as providing money for meddling in an election, or seeking to overthrow a government for instance?

Ah yes Phillip. Hadn't thought about that. Guess I don't think that way. That probably is what Iddee meant. ... for the record - I despise Soros. ... I just didn't understand Iddee's post. Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2020, 09:52:18 pm
I'll buy your house for 10 thousand dollars and slip you 60 thousand under the table. You spend it carefully and don't get caught. I can get rid of 60 thousand dirty money I got for getting that man a municipal contract and you can take a tax loss on your house rather than showing a profit.

Now do you understand?

Yes Iddee - now I understand. That kind of dirty "stuff" is just plain evil (at minimum). Apologies - I'm just not programmed to think that way. I thought you were trashing honest folks for using the tax code to its best advantage. Thanks for helping me understand your very valid point.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2020, 09:22:52 am
Ace, I know I question your intelligence now and then, but I have NEVER thought you believed a billionaire filed a truthful tax return.
Most billionaires follow the law.  Trump does not.  That is why he won't release them.  He is a gangster and most gangsters get caught by an IRS infraction. They have an intermediary do the criminal activity keeping their name out of the records.  But the criminal activity can not be hidden from tax evasion regardless of who works the books.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 26, 2020, 09:44:21 am
""Most billionaires follow the law.  Trump does not.""   Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you do believe it.

Thank You, Mr. Schiff. Made up any more good ones this morning
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on January 26, 2020, 10:26:48 am
Most billionaires follow the law.  Trump does not.  That is why he won't release them.  He is a gangster and most gangsters get caught by an IRS infraction. They have an intermediary do the criminal activity keeping their name out of the records.  But the criminal activity can not be hidden from tax evasion regardless of who works the books.

Posted by: Acebird


From the man who ONLY reads or views the BBC or PBS.  You have got to be kidding me.

The real reason Trump won't release his tax records is because the haters will manipulate the filings for their own purpose. 

Julian Assange was once asked why he didn't publish dirt on Trump.  He replied that Trumps whole life is already out there in public.

If there were any illegalities with Trumps tax returns don't you think one of Obama's or Andrew Cuomo's stooges would have already leaked them?  Yes, they would.  CNN would breathlessly announce the news (even before they read the returns).   The New York returns in Albany are there for the picking, and no leaks?  Maybe the returns are held in the same drawer as Obama's college records and they just can't be found?

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 26, 2020, 09:51:08 pm
 jvalentour
Quote
I suggest you educate yourself about Executive Privilege. 
I have a pet theory on john bolton and executive privilege.  Since privilege can not be used to cover wrong doing and john being a lawyer, I think he needs to testify so that when his book is vetted by the powers that be, they can not reduce the content by claiming privilege.  If he testifies, it becomes public knowlage and so not able to be redacted.

Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 27, 2020, 09:07:15 am

The real reason Trump won't release his tax records is because the haters will manipulate the filings for their own purpose. 

More made up fear.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2020, 11:16:59 am
Quote
I have a pet theory on john bolton and executive privilege.  Since privilege can not be used to cover wrong doing and john being a lawyer, I think he needs to testify so that when his book is vetted by the powers that be, they can not reduce the content by claiming privilege.  If he testifies, it becomes public knowlage and so not able to be redacted.

Yes the courts have ruled that privilege can't be used to cover a crime, but we have no crime alleged.  If the house wanted those witnesses they could have gone to court to get them.  Do you have a pet theory on why the house didn't do that for any of the witnesses it now says it wants to hear from?
The Senate would have to do the same court thing to overcome the executive privilege claim. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 27, 2020, 11:18:20 am
More crystal ball reading from Ace.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 27, 2020, 11:34:51 am
Kathy
Quote
Do you have a pet theory on why the house didn't do that for any of the witnesses it now says it wants to hear from?
Yes, cause if the truth matters, they proved the case with what they had.  There is a crime against the constitution.  It is just a different court set up by the constitution prosecuting said crime.  They could use the courts if he was not president.  I see nothing in the constitution that says congress has to use the courts before the can exercise impeachment.  In fact, it says that congress has the sole power.
Cheers
gww

PS  The senate does not have to wait for courts if they don't want to.  They won't do it but do have the power to say by a two thirds vote that if witnesses are not provided, we will just vote to convict.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2020, 11:36:16 am
Quote
More made up fear.

I don't think it has to do with anything other than he just doesn't want to give the nutters the satisfaction of demanding that he do something that is not required.
Many of us would have liked to have seen Obamas school records, especially his school registration, but it is not required and he did not produce it. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2020, 11:43:31 am
Quote
Yes, cause if the truth matters, they proved the case with what they had.  There is a crime against the constitution.  It is just a different court set up by the constitution prosecuting said crime.  They could use the courts if he was not president.  I see nothing in the constitution that says congress has to use the courts before the can exercise impeachment.  In fact, it says that congress has the sole power.

If they proved the case, then they didn't need witnesses and they don't need them now.
What is the crime against the constitution?

The branches are co-equal.  The congress can ask for stuff, but the president has the right to exert executive privilege for advisors and materials.  Congress and the president then go to court to get a ruling.  That is the constitutional way and the way it has been done in the past.  Congress does not have the right to stuff just because they want stuff. 

Congress has the right to impeach and they can do it with, or without anything from the WH.  This time they chose to do it without.  They used witnesses that had no first-hand knowledge of the things the democrats alleged.  In fact, all of them said they had no knowledge of a crime.
I am not sure how you get to "they proved the case", but if they did, then we ought to carry on and let the thing play out. 

And don't get me wrong.  I have nothing against calling witnesses.  The more the dem candidates for president are disrupted, the better.  I just don't see the point if the case has been made.

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 27, 2020, 11:44:14 am
Kathy
Quote
Many of us would have liked to have seen Obamas school records, especially his school registration, but it is not required and he did not produce it.
Trump hasn't exactly made his school records public either. He put an used legal tactics to stop the school from being able to release his records also.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 27, 2020, 11:57:28 am
Kathy
Then 16 witnesses provided enough that you would have to leave common sense at the door to not see what was going on.  However, removing a president is hard for the party of the president and so it might take some extra witnesses to get enough pressure for them to be hit in the head with the truth rather then stick their heads in the sand and see nothing.  This is being addressed by the republican senators in a way that they are hoping enough proof does not come out that they can hide from it and not where they can know it.  They know that some portion of their base will not care even if worse is found out and will hold it against them if they do not protect the president.  The problem for them is the small amount that the truth might peal off of their supporters making protection a losing game. That has not happened but the more that comes out makes it harder to hide if done before they make the decision.  They lose the ability to say we did not know that when we made our decision.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2020, 12:31:46 pm
Quote
Then 16 witnesses provided enough that you would have to leave common sense at the door to not see what was going on.

I am not exactly sure what you mean, but maybe a question will help.  What, exactly, do you think Trump is being impeached for?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 27, 2020, 12:39:39 pm
What, exactly, do you think Trump is being impeached for?
An unproven allegation that this is all related to Biden's bid for election in 2020 and nothing at all to do with his son realizing monetary gains due to his father's role as Vice President.
And the possibility of an entrapment foot fault for not cooperating with the House witch hunt.

Why Kathy, this is soooooo obvious.




Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2020, 12:55:03 pm
 
Quote
Biden's bid for election in 2020 and nothing at all to do with his son realizing monetary gains due to his father's role as Vice President.

I don't know if you saw the Peter Schweizer interview last night about the Bidens, but it's not just his son.  They had quite a family racket going on while Joe was VP. 

As Schweizer pointed out, there is no reason that the MSM has not done the very same research he has done, or, at the least, checked and reported on his research. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2020, 09:08:35 am
Trump hasn't exactly made his school records public either.
Well actually he has.  One only needs to read his endless tweets and conclude his academic accomplishments were purchased not earned.  He solidifies that pretty much every day.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2020, 09:15:43 am
They had quite a family racket going on while Joe was VP. 
Did you forget Trump brought his whole family and friends into our government with zero experience for any of the positions held?  Do you not understand that his daughter and son in law are using the presidency for exceptional personal gains?  This is classic Trump, I will accuse you of doing what I am already doing in public view!  Like I am ENTITLED TO IT and you are not.  Just like I am above the law and you are not.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 28, 2020, 10:57:37 am
... Do you not understand that his daughter and son in law are using the presidency for exceptional personal gains?  This is classic Trump, I will accuse you of doing what I am already doing in public view!  Like I am ENTITLED TO IT and you are not.  Just like I am above the law and you are not.

Is it possible to get some facts to back up those accusations? ... please!

While your looking for the facts, maybe you could explain why making such accusations without any supportive evidence [facts] is now ... "ok"? ... I mean, if we did that to Odumbo, well .... You'd be HOWLING with outrage.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 28, 2020, 04:41:21 pm
 :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 28, 2020, 04:45:07 pm
So....what would it take for you to change your mind?
What question(s) would you ask either the Managers or the defense team that would matter to your conclusion - assuming it was answered honestly?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 28, 2020, 05:58:48 pm
Tom
I know you were not asking me but I will answer for me.  I am not sure my mind could be changed at this time.  I do know that having a scatter gun defense designed to get different reasons so that different people can pick their favorite one will not do it.  If they had a pure defense that discounted all but one defense and it rang true, maybe.

Instead they say nobody heard it from the prez.  If somebody did and they think it is bad it is still not enough.  Nothing is enough.  It was just opposition research.  The call was perfect (mostly the worst due to all the background action around the call).  The process was bad.   Hiding more facts or trying to keep them behind closed doors and so the basic "stick you head in the sand and pretend you didn't hear it.  This has been the defense.

Now that they have used them all, it would be pretty hard to believe just one.  I might still want to nail him but at least if they would just pick one defense rather then just throw crap against the was to see what sticks, I might have more respect for the perspective realizing that people can have a different position on what a fact means to them..  I would not, however, have respect for a nothing is impeachable argument from those who pursued impeachment hard in the past for less then has happened now.

In the end, they will do what they want and I will decide based on that who is a hero and who is a chump.
Cheers
gww

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 28, 2020, 06:13:59 pm
I was asking everyone.
I think the defense team did a good job knocking the House Managers' case one premise at a time. I think they would have been negligent not to take on each allegation.
They convinced me that the obstruction charge also fails. I was on the fence over that one. I said in earlier posts that the democrats did not negotiate in good faith over requested documents and witnesses. I did not know that was referred to as inter branch accommodation required before litigation. (Kathy, I concede to your position.)

The defense team convinced me last night that Clinton should not have been impeached because a high crime was not committed no matter how it disgusted me that he was guilty of perjury.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2020, 06:18:39 pm
Is it possible to get some facts to back up those accusations? ... please!
I do not for one second believe that you would accept any facts coming from me.  They are out there plain as day.  I am not going to waste any of my time giving you the research you should be doing yourself.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2020, 06:26:07 pm
So....what would it take for you to change your mind?
What question(s) would you ask either the Managers or the defense team that would matter to your conclusion - assuming it was answered honestly?
Where are the documents asked for and when will the people subpoenaed testify?  You can't get justice if you allow Trump and the white house to ignore subpoenas.  That is what obstruction of justice is.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 28, 2020, 06:37:34 pm
So....what would it take for you to change your mind?
What question(s) would you ask either the Managers or the defense team that would matter to your conclusion - assuming it was answered honestly?
Where are the documents asked for and when will the people subpoenaed testify?  You can't get justice if you allow Trump and the white house to ignore subpoenas.  That is what obstruction of justice is.
So how many non definitive witness and how many non definitive documents would it take before you changed your mind? How would that testimony or documents prove the negative, not guilty? Would there ever be enough for you. That was the question I posed.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 28, 2020, 07:25:31 pm
Quote
You can't get justice if you allow Trump and the white house to ignore subpoenas.  That is what obstruction of justice is.

Actually, no.  That's what executive privilege is and that's what courts are for.  Obstruction of justice has not been charged.  In fact, no crime has been charged. 

Quote
I am not going to waste any of my time giving you the research you should be doing yourself.

You never answer questions which leads me to believe you do not do research. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 28, 2020, 08:49:07 pm
WOW. A 51 year old president coaching a little 21 year old intern working in the white house to give him blow jobs in the oval office is less then trying to stop the son of an ex vice president from making millions through corruption. Now THAT is a mouthful. I cannot believe you even thought that, much less had the nerve to say it.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 28, 2020, 09:04:43 pm
WOW. A 51 year old president coaching a little 21 year old intern working in the white house to give him blow jobs in the oval office is less then trying to stop the son of an ex vice president from making millions through corruption. Now THAT is a mouthful. I cannot believe you even thought that, much less had the nerve to say it.
Yeah, I know. He should have resigned for his behavior. No doubt. That would have involved integrity. Is it a high crime? A crime against the people he is supposed to serve? Even Harvey Weinstien's company tossed him out. His fellow politicians should have persuaded Clinton to leave. We got the wrong outcome.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 28, 2020, 09:19:07 pm
It is a bait and switch to keep saying all these other people do bad and should have been punished but since they were not, nobody should be.  Whether clinton got kicked out or not does not mean that trump should not be punished for doing wrong.  Yes, I think trumps actions fit the reason that impeachment was put in the constitution compared to clinton.  However, had they kicked clinton out, you guys would still seem to be saying that trump should not be kicked out.  Are you saying that if they would have got clinton, then you would agree that they should get trump?  Tell the truth now.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 28, 2020, 09:27:12 pm
I see no evidence to date that Trump's action was related to the 2020 election.
The Democrats have done more damage to Uncle Joe in the 2020 election by shining this spotlight on Trump's actions than Trump's actions.
The main stream media had reported on Little Joe's actions before Trump got involved.
This is a shell game. A witch hunt.
Give me hard evidence that I am wrong about 2020 and I can change my mind.

I hope to God that all the children of our senators and legislators do not get no show jobs for $1 million a year from foreign companies. That is not what public service should be about. The investigation is fair game.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 28, 2020, 09:31:33 pm
Quote
Is it a high crime? A crime against the people he is supposed to serve?

Bill didn't get in trouble for dropping his pants.  As they always say, the coverup is worse than the crime.  The impeachable crimes listed in the Starr report are available online.  Paula got a little justice, but the women who accused him of assault and rape did not. 

Quote
Yes, I think trumps actions fit the reason that impeachment was put in the constitution compared to clinton.

Clinton committed actual crimes, some of them felonies.  Even so, he stayed in office.  What crime is alleged in the Trump case? 

Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 28, 2020, 09:58:06 pm
Tom
The republicans controlled congress way back in 2015 when hunter was working in Ukraine.  Nobody was calling for investigations till daddy started running for office.

I don't know myself like you don't know on hunter but does it make you wonder about ivanka getting a bunch of patents from china while we are in a trade war and her dad is prez?
Cheers
gww

Ps we could do this all day long in pointing at things that might be wrong on all sides and never solve any of the wrongness or we could take out opportunity to prove that wrong doing can be punished and maybe that would give wrong doing a thought of pause before every one else justifying it is ok cause everyone gets away with it.

PS PS  I will say that I am pretty sure my old man would have had me do a few things different in my life if he could have controlled me.  There might be a few other things that joe would have controlled in hunter if he could have.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 28, 2020, 10:07:10 pm
Kathy
Quote
Even so, he stayed in office.  What crime is alleged in the Trump case?
We would probably figure that out pretty quick if he wasn't president but under current guide lines he can not be charged with anything except by congress.  If he was an illinois gov, he would probably be going to jail now.

I am pretty sure a prosecutor would have a good chance of finding a law and probably a felony.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 28, 2020, 10:49:48 pm
I believe the senate will do what they want and at the end at election time, I will have one vote.  I do think that the senate would be doing its job by getting what they know is out there and especially john bolten and a few others.  The info is there.  I understand if they come to the conclusion to not convict in the end if they know the facts and don't care, even if I do care.  I don't think the senate has so much on their plate that they can't do this part of there job and would rather nothing else come out before they make their decision.  They should get the stuff that they already know is there and make their decision based on all of it in the public eye cause it is going to come out.  I believe they short change the public if they do it any other way. One of those shortcomings will be our view of them as an institution if they claim later they didn't know something that was in easy reach before they made their decision.  If they put their selves in that position.  The public faith in them will be less then it is now.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 28, 2020, 11:17:10 pm
Quote
We would probably figure that out pretty quick if he wasn't president but under current guide lines he can not be charged with anything except by congress.  If he was an illinois gov, he would probably be going to jail now.

I am pretty sure a prosecutor would have a good chance of finding a law and probably a felony.

But we are dealing with what congress found in their investigation.  What is the crime?  Not what you wish it had been or wish they had found.  We are impeaching him now based on what?

Quote
I do think that the senate would be doing its job by getting what they know is out there and especially john bolten and a few others.  The info is there.

It was the job of the House to bring the charges.  They could have spent more time on it.  They could have gone to court to compel witnesses or documents.  They chose not to do that. 
So again, on what crime should the Senate impeach?  It is not their job to do the investigation.  It is their job to sit in judgement of what the house presented.

Now...I don't care if they do call witnesses except that this will drag on for months.  I just don't see the point in the Senate doing what the House should have done if they thought there was important stuff they were missing.  It had to be done RIGHT NOW so that Nancy could sit on it for a month. 

Very often I hear from the left that Clinton was impeached over sex.  That's not accurate, but if that is the argument then Trump is being impeached over a phone call. 
Please explain the thinking that leads to trying to remove a president months before an election when no crime is charged or even alleged. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on January 28, 2020, 11:29:41 pm
But we are dealing with what congress found in their investigation.  What is the crime?  Not what you wish it had been or wish they had found.  We are impeaching him now based on what?

The Democrats are impeaching a Republican President based on an anonymous persons accusation. 

Legally this exercise is unlawful.  It is a media Crucifixion more than anything else. 
Either way it goes, there will be hell to pay.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 28, 2020, 11:51:21 pm
kathy
Quote
So again, on what crime should the Senate impeach?  It is not their job to do the investigation.  It is their job to sit in judgement of what the house presented.
See, Your reason is not why I elect a senator.  I elect a senator who takes an oath when he takes that job to protect the constitution from enemy's foreign and domestic.  I figure it is always their job to do that even if their cohorts don't take that responsibility seriously.  I don't elect them to pass the buck.  The senate does many of their own investigations even outside of impeachment in pursuit of that.  So if I elect them to stand for truth, justice and the american way and they know how to get the truth for the american people, looking for scapegoats is not acceptable.
If they did not have the power, that would be one thing but they do.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: iddee on January 29, 2020, 06:40:37 am
""It is a bait and switch to keep saying all these other people do bad and should have been punished but since they were not, nobody should be.""

That's not what I was saying. I was saying how shocked I was that you thought rape and rape by coercion was less than trying to stop corruption That's what totally surprised me.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 29, 2020, 09:34:40 am
Obstruction of justice has not been charged.
Obstruction of congress which in this case results in obstruction of justice.  He knows he is guilty.

Quote
You never answer questions which leads me to believe you do not do research.
This is going to happen regardless of what I do or say.  If you don't know what I am saying is true then you are not doing the research or you are not accepting what you see or hear.
Listening to the phone conversation and concluding he did nothing wrong is a prime example.  If he did not have a gangster relationship with the senate he would be gone.  He has overstepped his power with the Senate as well as the House.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 29, 2020, 11:36:26 am
Quote
See, Your reason is not why I elect a senator.

It doesn't matter what YOUR reason is.  This is the Constitutional job of the Senate during an impeachment.  The House investigates and presents charges.  The Senate sits in judgment of those charges.  That's why the House sends impeachment managers to the Senate.  They argue the presented case to the Senate. 

During the Clinton trial the House got video depositions from 3 witnesses and those were viewed by the Senate.   Those witnesses were Monica Lewinsky,  Vernon Jordan and  Sidney Blumenthal.  That testimony was about things already in the Articles of Impeachment brought to the Senate by the House.  It was not a search for new stuff because the House didn't do a complete job. 

Quote
The Democrats are impeaching a Republican President based on an anonymous persons accusation.

Worse, it was found to be wholly inaccurate as soon as the phonecall transcript was released.  That should have been the end of it.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: minz on January 29, 2020, 05:25:25 pm
He is guilty of what he is charged with. The evidence and his own words say that, and he double downed on it as well. The only question that remains is ?is it impeachable? or was it a ?perfect phone call?? I think that the senate will vote along party lines, the real question is will they make it look like a political sham or give it a modicum of being authentic.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 29, 2020, 05:49:00 pm
Kathy
Quote
This is the Constitutional job of the Senate during an impeachment.
This is not the position that the senate took in past impeachments.  What, like 15 or 18 of them?  Maybe the johnson trial could show that?  You think?
Cheers
gww

Ps This is a senate trial, not an appeals court.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 29, 2020, 06:13:55 pm
Quote
This is not the position that the senate took in past impeachments.

It actually is the position of the Senate during the Clinton trial.  The video depositions were of witnesses that the house had heard.

Now if you want to study the Johnson trial, here it is from House to Senate.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/johnson.asp
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Dallasbeek on January 29, 2020, 07:42:48 pm
The Senate acts as the jury in an impeachment.  We can't have juries running around investigating behind the evidence presented by the prosecutor.  If the police and  prosecutor fail to find the evidence and develop a coherent case, the jury must acquit, not go out looking for more evidence so it can convict.  It is not the fault of the accused if the police and prosecutor are lacking in competence, and it is not the job of the jury to remedy that incompetence by independently conducting further investigation.  If a jury were allowed to further investigate, at what point would it then cease to investigate?  If it uncovered evidence that satisfies it of guilt, might further investigation reveal still more evidence that would prove the opposite to be true?  It is the job of the police and prosecution to develop a case.  If the state cannot establish facts that warrant charges being brought, it has an obligation to drop the matter.  The judge has the duty to insure that the accused receives a fair trial and that the rules of procedure and rules of evidence are followed.

Allowing the prosecution to bring charges and throw its  evidence against the wall to see what sticks is insane.  Allowing the jury to take the role of the police and prosecutor is utter stupidity.  Expecting the public to accept such a system of 'justice' is a travesty.  As a former prosecutor, I find this whole idea revolting.  As a lawyer, I find it repugnant.  As a citizen,  i find it un-American.

As to obstruction of Congress, the Executive branch is equal to the Legislative and Judicial branches.  It seems to me that it may be the job of the Executive to obstruct the Legislative branch, particularly the lower house thereof, which is by design given to impetuous actions, while the upper house of the Legislative branch is by design more contemplative in nature and given to less compulsive action.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 29, 2020, 08:02:11 pm
Dallas
This is not a court trial.  This is a senate trial.  The courts are set up based on laws and procedures passed by legislators.  The senate derives its power from the constitution and what is written in the constitution.  You had your responsibilities in court and those are different then the senate responsibilities under the constitution.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Dallasbeek on January 29, 2020, 09:36:01 pm
I know what it is, but the fact remains that the Senate acts AS A JURY in an impeachment.  The House returns Articles of Impeachment, which I would liken to an idictment.  The Senate's role is to convict or acquit, the same as a jury in a criminal trial.  Its role is to decide whether the Articles of Impeachment meet the standard required for conviction, just as a criminal court jury's job is to determine whether the evidence before it is sufficient to convict.  If the jurors (Senators) say, "Well, the evidence before us is not sufficient to convict, so we'll act as investigators and see if we can't find something we can use to convict," they have abandoned their roles as jurors.  So now who acts as a jury? 

No amount of wishful thinking on the part of someone on the sidelines makes it right for the jury to act as investigators in any kind of case or dispute.  It was the duty of the House of Representatives under the Constitution to develop the case against Trump, just as it was the duty of the House to develop the cases in prior impeachments.  The rush to put together Articles of Impeachment without properly exploring all the facts, in order to reach a conclusion desired by the leadership of the House was slipshod and unethical.  It reminds me a great deal of some prosecutors who work hard to convict people (especially minorities) in order to build a record of convictions without regard for whether the accused is guilty or innocent and, in fact, hide exculpatory evidence from the defence.  They were in such a rush to impeach that they refused to allow evidence not in line with their goal.  Now they are aware of the weakness of their case, so they want the Senate (the jury) to salvage their case from the wreckage they have made of things.

I don't know if there is a case for removal of Trump or not, but I don't see it in the Articles of Impeachment.  I just know that allowing the body serving as a jury to become investigators is a perversion of justice.

You can seek to justify doing things the way the Democrats want all you wish, GWW, but the fact is that there's a right way to go about things and there's a wrong way, and unless this is done the right way, hard feelings will last forever.  Probably will either way, of course.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on January 29, 2020, 09:55:46 pm
the fact is that there's a right way to go about things and there's a wrong way

Seems like a difficult concept to get across these days....
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 29, 2020, 10:11:22 pm
Dallas
Quote
but the fact remains that the Senate acts AS A JURY in an impeachment.

A ruling body for justice in protection of the constitutional rule of law protecting the government for the american people.  Sitting in judgement is only part of their responsibility.   Unlike a jury, they have constituents and set their    own rule of conducting the process.  They have the same investigatory ability for investigating out of an impeachment as well as in one with serving the american people being prime.  Getting off on a technicality when it would not serve justice would not be a proper response from those with this responsibility. 

I do agree with you on your position of prosecutors in normal courts.  Going for a high conviction count in spite of whether justice is served so you have a good resume is evil.

I even think that justice is important in a senate trial also but just disagree that they can get out of that on a technicality rather then on facts that are know or that they know now that they need to know.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 29, 2020, 10:52:42 pm
Quote
A ruling body for justice in protection of the constitutional rule of law protecting the government for the american people.  Sitting in judgement is only part of their responsibility.   Unlike a jury, they have constituents and set their    own rule of conducting the process.  They have the same investigatory ability for investigating out of an impeachment as well as in one with serving the american people being prime.  Getting off on a technicality when it would not serve justice would not be a proper response from those with this responsibility.

They are not a ruling body for anything.  They are part of the legislative branch.  This one duty is outside their legislative duty. 

The question remains:  If the house wanted more why did they not go after more?  Why would they expect the Senate to do what they would not do?  It was their job to make the case, and if they have not made it and the president is acquitted, it is because they did not succeed in making their case.  That's not a technicality.  It is a failure on their part. 
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 29, 2020, 11:17:48 pm
Kathy
Quote
Why would they expect the Senate to do what they would not do?
Cause then the president has the chance to obstruct congress again if he stops people from responding to subpoenas.   It is not like they are in question of who they want to call.   The judge can also make rulings immediately.

If the president does not respond, then they can impeach him.  If he does respond then they can make a decision.
Obstructing due to some kind of technicality when they have the power to have all the facts that the house has led them too during their presentation and while the trial is going on would be wrong.  Going the other way may give a wrong outcome in my mind but I could be confident that when the senators gave their excuse, They would have did it with the facts and I could learn the facts with them so that come election, I will also be informed when I vote.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on January 29, 2020, 11:34:38 pm
Food for thought. Do we really think that President Trump was worried about Sleepy Joe Biden as a political opponent?  Or should we now call him ''Busy Bucks Joe''?  Take for instance the New Jersey rally set up for Mr Trump. There was an astonishing, whopping 175,000, yes, One hundred, seventy-five thousand applicants, for tickets at that rally! Yes in New Jersey, of all places, the Red state! Come on folks who are the dems trying to fool? Do you really think for one minute that Mr Trump was worried about sleepy Joe and subboranants investigated because of personal gain? Really? Remember, it was not just sleepy Joe that he wanted investigated in Ukraine.  It was any crook, all corruption, on either side of the isle or sea, not just in Ukraine as demonstrated and laid out by his defendants in the Senate trial. It was and is every country involved in corruption and money laundering etc there and other places that we aid. Surely you understand this? It was and is to ''drain the swamp!'' Just like he promised in his first campagaine. We the people get it and apparently so do many self thinking democratic and independent Americans. 
Shockingly for the democratic party and headquarters, 26 percent of all applicants for the New Jersey rally, wanting desperately to retain tickets, were registered democrats! Yes that is correct according to news sources. 10 percent were non voters from the last election! That is 36 percent of non voting (previously, non-rebublican supports), supporting the president and his policies in the New Jersey rally alone!!!! No wonder the democrats are scratching and clawing, panicking and grasping at any straw trying to stop Mr Trump, with their un-due charges. After all, what issues do they have to run on in the next Presidential election, excet hating Trump? What a grand show of support for Mr Trump, especially in New Jersey, they the dems, know what the election outcome will be if their ultimate election interference, meddling and tampering, now being demonstrated and masqueraded as  Impeachment; fails.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 29, 2020, 11:49:17 pm
ben framed
Quote
Food for thought. Do we really think that President Trump was worried about Sleepy Joe Biden as a political opponent?
Food for thought, President nixon was up in the polls and won by a landslide but yet there was a break in.  People are funny that way.  Most people historically believe the right thing happened in that case.

To your other point.  Trump goes to the reddest places and draws a big crowd but goes to a sports event and gets booed.  We will all know what happens in november if not before.  I know what I have.  I have one vote which is what I should have.  Time will tell.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on January 30, 2020, 08:10:59 am
ben framed
Quote
Food for thought. Do we really think that President Trump was worried about Sleepy Joe Biden as a political opponent?
Food for thought, President nixon was up in the polls and won by a landslide but yet there was a break in.  People are funny that way.  Most people historically believe the right thing happened in that case.

To your other point.  Trump goes to the reddest places and draws a big crowd but goes to a sports event and gets booed.  We will all know what happens in november if not before.  I know what I have.  I have one vote which is what I should have.  Time will tell.
Cheers
gww

Haa Haa ( I almost replied Ace, lol, had to look twice).  gww   I agree, Mr Liddy was wrong for breaking into the  watergate. Weather Mr Nixon authorized it or not. Just as Mr Clintons charges are not relevant now. Not relevant here in 2020 and this case, as clearly pointed out by Mr Trumps attorneys. Unfortunately Both pryor presidents were after personal gain. We know that breaking and entering is unlawful. What Mr Clinton did was Unfortunate and shameful. It was also shameful that he was not charged with selling secrets to our enemies instead of what he was charged with. That is of course the allegations of selling secrets were true? I do not think Mr Trump has sold secrets?

As for my point that you credited me, and thank you for the credit my friend;  (Hum, I thought I made several). Yes Mr Trump goes to the reddest places as well as red places and draws the largest crowds. The lovers of Old Glory Red, White, and Blue are anxious to hear him speak. Patriots of all descriptions and backgrounds, colors and races also. This is a movement larger than political lines, race, or gender. This is a movement of Americans of all descriptions. United with the hope of making America Great again for ALL citizens.  There is always exceptions of course, the unpatriotic kneelers for example, may still be grudge holders. But if you are referring to the Alabama-LSU game, the crowd clearly cheered for him, (Mr Trump). Of course not according to CNN. But as always, we must watch and learn for ourselves, can't trust those rascals. lol
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 30, 2020, 08:54:40 am
What a grand show of support for Mr Trump, especially in New Jersey
Why would you mention New Jersey?  Trump campaigning on removing corruption and sighting New Jersey support is comical.  The governor wanted to be vice president so bad he could taste it.  Trump is no fool.  Two gangsters can't work together, there is no trust.
Trump is afraid of Putin, Xi Jinping, and Iran. 
So what does Trump have going for him as a leader?  A mess at the Mexican boarder, ridiculed by the Canadians, a fight with England, turning his back on the curds, a war crime in Iraq, bowing to Putin, being out foxed by Kim Jon-un.  And now coming up with the most ridiculous "peace" plan ever.  So he can add the Palestinians to his list of fears.  Especially the ones learning to fly in Fl.  Moving to FL is no safer then the big apple.  He needs to move to the desert to increase his safety.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on January 30, 2020, 09:00:55 am
What a grand show of support for Mr Trump, especially in New Jersey
Why would you mention New Jersey?  Trump campaigning on removing corruption and sighting New Jersey support is comical.  The governor wanted to be vice president so bad he could taste it.  Trump is no fool.  Two gangsters can't work together, there is no trust.
Trump is afraid of Putin, Xi Jinping, and Iran. 
So what does Trump have going for him as a leader?  A mess at the Mexican boarder, ridiculed by the Canadians, a fight with England, turning his back on the curds, a war crime in Iraq, bowing to Putin, being out foxed by Kim Jon-un.  And now coming up with the most ridiculous "peace" plan ever.  So he can add the Palestinians to his list of fears.  Especially the ones learning to fly in Fl.  Moving to FL is no safer then the big apple.  He needs to move to the desert to increase his safety.

Good morning Ace, Having your coffee before you go to Mar-a-Lago (work)?  What desert would you suggest you and Mr Trump move too? Yall have already left NY I guess where he goes one you go all? After all the closer to work the better. lol
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 30, 2020, 09:39:40 am
Area 51
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Ben Framed on January 30, 2020, 09:42:33 am
Area 51

lol  :cheesy: :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: kathyp on January 30, 2020, 11:59:50 am
Quote
Cause then the president has the chance to obstruct congress again if he stops people from responding to subpoenas.   It is not like they are in question of who they want to call.   The judge can also make rulings immediately.

If the president does not respond, then they can impeach him.  If he does respond then they can make a decision.
Obstructing due to some kind of technicality when they have the power to have all the facts that the house has led them too during their presentation and while the trial is going on would be wrong.  Going the other way may give a wrong outcome in my mind but I could be confident that when the senators gave their excuse, They would have did it with the facts and I could learn the facts with them so that come election, I will also be informed when I vote.

If both sides agree to allow the Chief Justice to make some of those calls, he can.  In the case of executive privilege, which the president has every right to claim, I do not think the Justice can make that call.  If there was a dispute, it would have to go to court.  Congress can't ding the president for asserting what is his right. 
It was considered with Clinton because he filed lawsuits over and over again.  It was discarded as a charge because this is a presidential right and the claim of abuse is subjective. 

But again, if the House has this airtight case they have presented, and that is their claim, why drag this out? Let the Senate vote on the case they have presented.  If they do not, that is on them.  They had every opportunity to go to court and compel witnesses and documents.

To be honest, I don't care if this goes on and ties up legislation forever.  The less they do, the less harm they do.     :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 30, 2020, 12:12:34 pm
Kathy
Quote
To be honest, I don't care if this goes on and ties up legislation forever.  The less they do, the less harm they do.

Finally!  We have finally found one thing that you and I agree on wholeheartedly.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 30, 2020, 02:53:15 pm
To be honest, I don't care if this goes on and ties up legislation forever.
I am concerned if this pauses confirmation of Federal judge positions.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 30, 2020, 03:27:22 pm
tom
Nothing stops the senate from conduction business prior to the supreme justice showing up.  The supreme justice is still doing his day job.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: Acebird on January 31, 2020, 09:51:09 am
I am concerned if this pauses confirmation of Federal judge positions.
Too many bad choices already.  That is another thing that needs term limits.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 31, 2020, 10:20:34 am
I am concerned if this pauses confirmation of Federal judge positions.
Too many bad choices already.  That is another thing that needs term limits.
I recently read the Federalist Papers. It is long and dry in lots of places, but illuminating in others. I recommend reading this to anyone interested in why the government was designed the way it was by the founding fathers. (At least in Hamilton's and Madison's view of such things.)

Regarding lifetime appointments...one of the thoughts was that a long career with thoughtful experience in the law was beneficial as long as the justice remained in good health. Impeachment is the remedy for corrupt judges. Appeals are the remedy for bad decisions.


Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: CoolBees on January 31, 2020, 12:56:50 pm
I am concerned if this pauses confirmation of Federal judge positions.
Too many bad choices already.  That is another thing that needs term limits.

You can have your federal judge term limits, after I get my House and Senate term limits - 3 terms for the house, 2 terms for the senate.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on January 31, 2020, 07:24:11 pm
So how does it work...
...if the groundhog sees it's shadow we get new articles of impeachment in 6 weeks?    :wink:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: gww on January 31, 2020, 07:57:20 pm
Tom
Only time will tell right. :wink:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: incognito on February 06, 2020, 09:24:49 am
Well....that was fun.
Can we do it again? Please.

I need, the country needs, a little break from these shenanigans.

The Constitution worked.
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: jvalentour on February 06, 2020, 10:22:39 am
Well....that was fun.
Can we do it again? Please.


No thank you.
Why not let the voters decide in November?
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on February 07, 2020, 08:52:10 am
Yes, I really hope this wakes up a lot of conservatives  who do not normally vote to come out and be counted. The Democrats are wasting time doing nothing but try to make President Trump look bad and I think that this is really going to backfire on them as it has shown Americans who they really are.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on March 18, 2020, 07:38:07 pm
Well....that was fun.
Can we do it again? Please.

[/b]
No thank you.
Why not let the voters decide in November?
Nah! missed it by a whisker! :cheesy:
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: salvo on March 18, 2020, 09:26:00 pm
Hi Folks,

Ya gotta hand it to Cider. He just keeps on coming back. Please click the link and enjoy!

BTW: Cider is the Black Knight.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=monte+python+knight+can%27t+pass&&view=detail&mid=E6AB7C5A26A50C6A27AFE6AB7C5A26A50C6A27AF&&FORM=VDRVRV

Sal
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: sawdstmakr on March 19, 2020, 12:33:24 am
😁
Title: Re: Is impeachment close?
Post by: cidersabuzzin on March 19, 2020, 06:41:23 am
Hi Folks,

Ya gotta hand it to Cider. He just keeps on coming back. Please click the link and enjoy!

BTW: Cider is the Black Knight.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=monte+python+knight+can%27t+pass&&view=detail&mid=E6AB7C5A26A50C6A27AFE6AB7C5A26A50C6A27AF&&FORM=VDRVRV

Sal
No, only iddee's legs! :cheesy: