Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: jvalentour on January 22, 2019, 01:10:43 pm

Title: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: jvalentour on January 22, 2019, 01:10:43 pm
AOC, AKA Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio?-Cortez is the gift that keeps on giving.  I just love her.  The Democratic Socialist is holding the liberal Democrats feet to the fire for all their broken or unmet promises.  She is exposing the Democratic leadership lies and greed and she wants action now!

Without explaining how to pay for the benefits she supports she endorses Free Medicare for all, free college tuition, student debt canceled, housing as a federal right, taxing the ?rich? up to 70% and more. 

She opposed Nancy Pelosi before she endorsed her, she states we will all die in 12 years if we don?t do something about climate change, Ocasio-Cortez also said that "owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution."

There is a lot more.  I think she truly believes what she says.  Sadly, I suspect Nancy Pelosi has already found her replacement in 2020.
In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy the show.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 22, 2019, 01:40:04 pm
The problem is that a lot of her generation seem to be right in there with her.  They don't seem to care that there is no way to pay for all she wants and they fully embrace her class warfare stance.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 22, 2019, 03:26:14 pm
" The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next. ".    Abraham Lincoln
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Michael Bush on January 22, 2019, 06:00:56 pm
Even crazier than free everything for everyone here, we want to let everyone in and give free everything to EVERYBODY.  The word "free" should be banned from the English language.  Any sentence that contains that word is a lie...
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 22, 2019, 07:11:51 pm
Quote
Any sentence that contains that word is a lie...

I was having this argument with my TV when the local news was doing a SNAP story.  Believe it or not, people were complaining that they would not be able to budget for next month because they got their money early.  All the while, showing full pantries including those well-known staples of a nutritious diet like Pop Tarts.  Several times they mentioned "their money". 

People have forgotten, if they ever knew, where government money comes from.  This is why I prefer charity.  When you take from your neighbors you know where it came from and that they are sharing what they have earned.  The government is a faceless deep pocket that just gives you stuff.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Dallasbeek on January 22, 2019, 07:58:25 pm
"Their money" --- once people get on the dole and stay there a while, " free" stuff becomes an entitlement, even in government agency parlance.  They are "entitled" to it through some quirk of magic thinking.  I guess they earned it by being born?

Off topic, but I hear about one guy killing another because "he disrepected me." What does that mean, when it comes from somebody who has so little respect for himself or others that he lives like an animal, breeds like an animal and treats his children and the mother(s) of his children like animals?  Should I start another topic on this?  I suspect we all have something to say on the subject. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 22, 2019, 08:33:41 pm
Dallas, here's one to start the new topic

https://www.wcjb.com/content/news/Man-arrested-after-mass-shooting-threat-said-he-would-kill-many-girls-because-hes-a-virgin-504664941.html
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 23, 2019, 02:53:13 am
My dear friends over the pond.
I do not disagree in all points with you, not at all! On a small scale I got an example: A guy lived for rent in one of two houses of my parents. Oooold place. had the whole house and landscape and a garage for next to nothing. garage was free. then I moved into the other house. For three years every morning in winter I scraped and freed my car off snow and ice. Then I finally decided that maybe I`d use the garage instead, there was no rent payed for it, nothing in a contract. Well - he was angry to the point he never talked with me again. after a while he went off in a huff.

But: Where are all the american citizens voting for the above mentioned persons/positions. They are not in this forum. How come? Can`t read?
There seems a deep division in the US society?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 23, 2019, 05:24:10 am
Charity does not work in Germany IMO.

There are two reasons for this: first, the Germans are selfish and avaricious, they hoard their money and donate only to feel better, not to help. There was a stat on the net now.
Second, they are ashamed to accept money that is not given anonymously.Ask the shutdown people how they feel now!
There are also many who are entitled to state money, but who do not report.
This is not published, usually news are about the unscrupulous.

In addition, those who need Charity or welfare money are despised, even if they can?t be blamed for their situation.

A community (and a state is a community) should stand up for their weak and hopeless members.
That is also a Christian value. Jesus says, "do not worry you will be given". Did he take money for healing people? Did he want thanks? Did he want to be asked or begged?

That's why I respect AOC, she has the courage to be a voice for the weak. It does not matter who cares for the people, be it a private person or a community as long as someone cares.
And she is a beautiful happy young coloured woman which makes it even harder for her.

IME She does politics just like Trump, only progressive and without insults.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 23, 2019, 06:12:36 am
well....

.... an old neighbour-woman brings or at least cooks a meal for my old dad about 3 times a week. for money?s sake it wouldn`t be necessary. but I call it charity anyways.

as for despising people on welfare: ask kathyp, sawdust and coolbees about it. I have the impression it is not a purely germyn issue.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 23, 2019, 06:55:41 am
People tend to help only those they regard as their own....and people tend to spend money coming from others.
 :wink:
It?s hard to judge people by their actions. In a democracy it?s good to listen to all sides and opinions.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 23, 2019, 07:47:19 am
""It does not matter who cares for the people, be it a private person or a community as long as someone cares.""

The difference is, the charity money is donated freely. The community money is stolen from the ones who worked hard for it, even after they donated what they could afford to charity. That's the part that isn't right.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 23, 2019, 09:04:49 am
it`s a matter of mobility, the globe got small.
so pension`s are paid instead of the young ones caring for the old ones
asf.
just one aspect of a change in society.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2019, 10:23:31 am
I ann thinking that if you all would go back to the topic started by Jim titled--- Mattos? response Don Lemon on CNN-----  instead of being so so confused as who the heart of Americans are, you would be enlightened. Jim posted this topic in good faith. I'm sure with heart felt conviction. Yet, not one!  Not even one of our liberal friends had the respect to reply on this! Why is this? Not one of you, liberals, Either Forgien or Domestic! Yet, If you read the entire post you will see that the subject was quickly changed when this very point was pointed out.    Shame
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Hops Brewster on January 23, 2019, 10:55:59 am
My dear friends over the pond.
I do not disagree in all points with you, not at all! On a small scale I got an example: A guy lived for rent in one of two houses of my parents. Oooold place. had the whole house and landscape and a garage for next to nothing. garage was free. then I moved into the other house. For three years every morning in winter I scraped and freed my car off snow and ice. Then I finally decided that maybe I`d use the garage instead, there was no rent payed for it, nothing in a contract. Well - he was angry to the point he never talked with me again. after a while he went off in a huff.

But: Where are all the american citizens voting for the above mentioned persons/positions. They are not in this forum. How come? Can`t read?
There seems a deep division in the US society?

It's probably just as well that he refused to speak to you.

as for citizens voting for their "entitlements", yes, you are correct.  Many of them can't read, or refuse to even if they're able.  Not trying to stereotype here, but the Demorat party has made it their goal since at least Lyndon Johnson to become the party of entitlements, and it is a lot easier to make the undereducated beholden to the state than it is to enslave those who have learned that at work pays better.  over decades, they have coopted the education system, convinced millions of able-bodied people that the welfare state is here to provide everything for them (even to providing cell phones), and now, they encourage the poor from other countries that sucking America dry is their best bet.   Why?  In large part for the votes.  When a Demorat promises that you will never have to work for anything, you will probably vote for a Demorat.  And that is power.  Filthy, foul power, but power.

There is a deep division in US, and it's growing deeper.  You have been involved in many of the discussions that outline the reasons why.  It is liberty vs slavery to the State.  The middle class is slowly being destroyed by the left and the result is a small population of super-wealthy Elite Rulers at the top and the undereducated lower class peasants placed there to support them.  The free middle class gets in the way of the Elite's goals, so must be destroyed.

My ancestors fought and died to rid our country of the Royal Elite system and to govern themselves.   Now it seems that the socialists are making great headway in returning to the Ruler/Peasant system.  The biggest difference now is that the  peasants get to keep the illusion that they choose their Kings and Barons just because they can ignorantly make a mark on a ballot.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2019, 11:10:16 am
Thanks Hopps,  It is not me, that they shunned, this was not my topic that they shunned,   but Jim they did shun, and Jims Topic. Let me add, not just Jim or his topic that our liberal minded friends shun,  but America, the heart ❤️ Of America.... Again Shame !!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Hops Brewster on January 23, 2019, 11:20:12 am


That's why I respect AOC, she has the courage to be a voice for the weak. It does not matter who cares for the people, be it a private person or a community as long as someone cares.
And she is a beautiful happy young coloured woman which makes it even harder for her.

IME She does politics just like Trump, only progressive and without insults.
She demands free everything, without outlining how it is to be paid for.  She demands the rich be taxed until there are no more rich, without considering that there will be no none left to pay for all her "free" stuff when they're gone.  She is nothing like Trump.
Pelosi, on the other hand, is like Trump in several ways.  She demands her own way and refuses to negotiate, calling compliance to her demands "compromise".   She insults people freely (though less directly) just like Trump.    Both of them hide behind the phrase, "for the people" to disguise their elitism.  Keep looking and you will see that Pelosi and Trump are 2 sides of the same coin.   The only thing tha AOC has over of them, is that she doesn't try to hide the fact that she's a socialist.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 11:28:28 am
Quote
A community (and a state is a community) should stand up for their weak and hopeless members.
That is also a Christian value. Jesus says, "do not worry you will be given". Did he take money for healing people? Did he want thanks? Did he want to be asked or begged?

That's why I respect AOC, she has the courage to be a voice for the weak. It does not matter who cares for the people, be it a private person or a community as long as someone cares.
And she is a beautiful happy young coloured woman which makes it even harder for her.

This is a difference between European and American thinking.  Europeans have always been subjects of their government.  Their king, dictator, or now their elected government.  You expect your government to be benevolent and care for you.

Americans, traditionally, have expected their government to stay out of their lives and out of their way.  If someone is truly in need, I have no problem taking care of them.  In this country there should never have been federal programs to care for people.  It should have been left to each state.  People have more control over their own states and programs.

If people have chosen welfare as a lifestyle, they should be ashamed.   If people have saved no money even though they have a good job, and find they are going to miss a paycheck or two, they should be ashamed to take from others.

AOC wants everyone to have everything free.  There is no free.  Someone pays for it, but she seems not to have a clue about who or how.  She is a socialist and socialism always ends with everyone doing poorly.  Never does socialism lift up a society, and never do people who depend on welfare achieve wealth unless they are willing to get off welfare and do what it takes to succeed. 

Jesus didn't advocate for government welfare.  He instructed us to be charitable.  That is a personal duty and a choice.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 23, 2019, 12:11:51 pm
kathyp,
thanks for the explanations. You are right about the different thinking, of course.

What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?
Yes I believe it is. A merciless thinking. No offense meant. It?s just I can?t understand the liberty in this. Freedom to go down?

Probably you know something about our welfare system. You are insured ( no choice) and when you get unemployed ( which is hard to do by the companies) you get unemployment support from the payers community.
After that you get "hartz 4" which is welfare money. While you get it you are obliged to look at the jobs the agency offers you, if you don?t take the job they will pay you less after some time.
This system is called "fordern und f?rdern" ( demand and help).

If you get a serious medical condition like cancer you will get retirement money paid by the community.
The costs of medical treatments are paid by the community.

The community has lobbies.
The only exception are the civil servant persons who do not have to pay into the community, which I find must be disestablished.
Those people make the laws and therefore should not be excempted.

Personally I think this is a very good system which had been proven good. If dignified survivability depends on every single person?s working ability this promotes criminality. It explains too why you need weapons.

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 12:34:48 pm
Quote
What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?

Lol.  No I don't think they should starve, but I also don't think that welfare should be a lifestyle choice for anyone who can work.  It has become that for many.  Yes, I do think charity should be the first solution for short term help.

We have unemployment insurance.  It is supposed to be limited to give you a chance to find another job.  We have free and reduced cost medical care for those who are poor.  In fact, if you include Medicare and Medicaid, over 1/2 the people in the country are getting some kind of government money for health care. 

I observe that Germans have a different mindset about things like medical care.  Your people are less apt to abuse the system.  I am not sure why.  If you look at something like the UKs NHS, the opposite is true. 

In this country the opposite is true for those on medical welfare.  They use and abuse the system.  There is no penalty for them if they do this.  For instance, If I skip a medical appointment that I have scheduled, I am going to get a bill in the mail.  It's a small one, but it is a penalty for not having the courtesy to cancel my appointment.  If a person is on welfare and dose that, there is no penalty.  The appointment sits empty because they did not have the courtesy to call.

There is a difference between someone who can't work and someone who chooses not to work, or chooses not to advance to the point of making a better wage.  We have a good economy and low unemployment.  There is no reason for healthy people to be sitting around doing nothing.

We should also note that this is a huge country with a diverse population.  We have 350 million people, not counting illegals.  "free stuff" for 350 million people has never been successfully tried.  India has more people and has given free health care a go, but it is only effective in the cities. 
Obamacare has already cost us a lot of our rural hospitals and providers.  Free will mean even more close.  Like India (or the UK) we will only get good care in a city.  In the UK, that's a short trip. Not a short trip here.

I think each country should do what works for them, but if you are going to spend all your money on welfare, you can't do things like field a military or pay your NATO bill.   :wink:

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 23, 2019, 12:53:35 pm
""What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?
Yes I believe it is. A merciless thinking. No offense meant. It?s just I can?t understand the liberty in this. Freedom to go down?""

You mean like the poor, starving, helpless person who last week was arrested for receiving 400,000 dollars in food stamps, illegally?

OH, that poor, starving person, and then they arrest them. Just HORRIBLE.

If half the welfare money spent in the USA was legitimate, we would have no problem. That's why we say it should be moved from federal to state control. Then maybe some of the waste and fraud could be curtailed.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 23, 2019, 01:25:57 pm
good idea!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 01:26:14 pm
Quote
If half the welfare money spent in the USA was legitimate, we would have no problem. That's why we say it should be moved from federal to state control. Then maybe some of the waste and fraud could be curtailed.

Moved back to state control.

The problem is that states are now as addicted to federal money as people are.  Look at the states crying over the federal "shut down".
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: MikeyN.C. on January 23, 2019, 03:40:54 pm
About 10 years ago . I lived in a rental mobile home trailer park. I work in commercial construction (hospitals,schools) so only work about
265-325 days a year. There was 12 rentals , 3 of those rentals were people (family's)  20-25 yrs. of age that worked the handout system. Most were able to work but didn't. Daddy claimed back problems, having
baby after baby, daddy can't work because of bad back that Drs. can't confirm so daddy gets disability. Mommy ,daddy and all baby's get food stamps(free food)  all get free health care,  the more baby's the more free stuff. They would try and find people willing to give them 50 cents on the dollar on the food stamps to have cash at hand for alcohol- weed.
I was not brought up this way. But they were tought this way. Don't know if this systematic way was brought to rural areas from big cities or not.
All i could do was shake my head. It's a sad situation.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2019, 03:50:31 pm
About 10 years ago . I lived in a rental mobile home trailer park. I work in commercial construction (hospitals,schools) so only work about
265-325 days a year. There was 12 rentals , 3 of those rentals were people (family's)  20-25 yrs. of age that worked the handout system. Most were able to work but didn't. Daddy claimed back problems, having
baby after baby, daddy can't work because of bad back that Drs. can't confirm so daddy gets disability. Mommy ,daddy and all baby's get food stamps(free food)  all get free health care,  the more baby's the more free stuff. They would try and find people willing to give them 50 cents on the dollar on the food stamps to have cash at hand for alcohol- weed.
I was not brought up this way. But they were tought this way. Don't know if this systematic way was brought to rural areas from big cities or not.
All i could do was shake my head. It's a sad situation.

Thank you and your family  MikeyNC , for your hard work to help yourself and your hard work to help build up America!!! As the good man and fellow Mississippian, Jerry Clower use to say " If you work hard, and have that bulldog hang on tight attitude, In America you can be a winner!! God Bless you MikeyNC and God Bless America!!
Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 04:12:40 pm
A lot of us went through a poor period.  Personally, I think our family was better for it.  We left the military with just enough in savings to move and find a cheap place to live.  I did childcare from home because our kids were little, and my husband worked 2 to 3 part time jobs and went to school.  We ate a lot of soup and chicken parts.  We turned down the heat, shared one old car between us, and turned off the lights.  At one point I even turned off the furnace pilot light at night to see if it would save any money.  Probably spent more in matches to relight it than I saved   :grin:

the kids were dressed out of goodwill, and I knew every discount grocery trick in the book.  Diapers were washed in the bathtub.  We took no aid. 

He finished school and got a good job.  Kids went to school and I worked.  Student loans were paid and that was the only debt we had. 

It can be done.  It's not easy.   Poverty is not a disease.  It is a state of exitance that a person has to wish to change.  If they do not, it should not be the job of society to support them. 

Those penny pinching ways have only changed a bit and it has given us the ability to save for retirement, own some income properties, and have the money to get and do what we want to get and do.  I still buy my clothes at GoodWill!

At that same time, I had a neighbor with two young kids.  Never married.  She not only took all the government aid she could get, she hit up every charity.  At Christmas, she would make the rounds and pick up free toys for the kids.  Thanksgiving, free food boxes.  She couldn't buy dog food with food stamps so she fed the dog hamburger.  She got help with her utility bills. 
I don't know what became of her or her children, but what a poor example to set for kids. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: MikeyN.C. on January 23, 2019, 04:44:17 pm
It's a poor example of us (yes) what has happened. 
Sold 1st house i bought in Louisiana in 94'
Came back home to family in N.C. , bought
Home on 5 acres,  had divorce,  left house to xwife and girls. Stayed in park for 2 yrs.
Have my own place own 2 acres.  All is good.   Was just trying to explain welfare system to bfb, sw?
Kp,  one of my favorite meals today is homemade lard biscuits and beans :grin:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2019, 05:17:46 pm
 Kathy, now that is the type of hang on tight bulldog grip I believe Mr Clower was talking about! Thank you for sharing your experience,  proving once more Mr. Clowers theory! Good for you and your family what a shining sample to others! And thank you and your family  for serving the rest of us during your time in the military! God bless you,
 Philip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 05:24:31 pm
Quote
And thank you and your family  for serving the rest of us during your time in the military! God bless you,

Thanks.  It was our pleasure.  Of course, AOC would like to punish us with higher taxes for our effort, but that's another story   :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2019, 05:27:59 pm
Quote
And thank you and your family  for serving the rest of us during your time in the military! God bless you,

Thanks.  It was our pleasure.  Of course, AOC would like to punish us with higher taxes for our effort, but that's another story   :cheesy:

Yes, you are right, she would and will if possible.
Shame
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Michael Bush on January 23, 2019, 05:46:42 pm
>A lot of us went through a poor period.

Most young adults when they leave home do, unless they have rich parents who are propping them up.  You have to work your way up in life.  I do see a difference in attitude today.  I was taught honest work was nothing to be ashamed of, whether it was shoveling horse manure, cleaning toilets or pouring concrete.  If it needs to be done, and it's not illegal, it's honest work.  Now people think they are being demeaned if they aren't highly paid or if they have to get dirty to do the work.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 06:39:25 pm
Quote
Now people think they are being demeaned if they aren't highly paid or if they have to get dirty to do the work.

since the end of WW2 we have told kids that if they get a degree they will be well paid.  Now everyone has a degree and they are competing for jobs.  They are not willing to do dirty work because they have that degree and they were promised it would keep them from shoveling crap.

Good blue collar jobs go empty because no one with a degree wants to clean sewers.

Our rental had a sewage backup.  The management company called out the plumbing company.  Less than one hour work and it was 800 dollars.  No degree required!  I realize that money didn't all go into the pocket of the "technician" (their description) but I'm sure he makes a good wage out of it. 

Lol.  Next time I have to snake my own drain I'll just remind myself that I  AM A TECHNICIAN!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 23, 2019, 06:42:00 pm
Back then a man was proud to be a municipal sanitation engineer.
Today young men have no desire to shovel poop for the city.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2019, 07:59:21 pm
SiWolke . ''it explains too why you need weapons''

No my sweet hearted friend.  The following is why we have weapons. As our founding fathers knew the dangers of an oppressive government.. As first posted by Live Oak
https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuelans-regret-gun-prohibition-we-could-have-defended-ourselves?fbclid=IwAR1KoDcw6CrOsSgCqNIHGN6ZfooecY7VUZdeyuwhFj8TrfVpKC5gOmFN1ME

This is by no means the first time in history that this sort of thing has happened. I can give other examples but would really rather not my friend.
Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 23, 2019, 09:55:42 pm
Quote
Personally I think this is a very good system which had been proven good. If dignified survivability depends on every single person?s working ability this promotes criminality. It explains too why you need weapons.

Wow.  I skimmed right over this.

dignified survival does depend on working ability/willingness.  There is nothing dignified about taking what someone else has earned unless you are disabled in some way or too old to work.  Even then many disabled work, and hopefully people are planning for retirement with savings. 

I am a big believer in volunteer work and charity.  The government taking my money and giving it to someone else is theft.  I think of it this way:  If you come out of the shop with a sandwich and I take it from you against your will and give it to some homeless person I have committed a crime regardless of my good intentions.  government redistribution is the same.  It is not a charity.  Charity is done by choice. 

I have weapons because I want weapons.  I may never  use them except for sport, but they are not the business of the government.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: sawdstmakr on January 23, 2019, 10:12:10 pm
When the government uses taxes for charities they are taking the money at the point of a gun. If you do not believe that, don?t pay your taxes and you will receive a visit by an armed policeman.
Jim
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 24, 2019, 02:43:57 am
Quote
A community (and a state is a community) should stand up for their weak and hopeless members.
That is also a Christian value. Jesus says, "do not worry you will be given". Did he take money for healing people? Did he want thanks? Did he want to be asked or begged?

That's why I respect AOC, she has the courage to be a voice for the weak. It does not matter who cares for the people, be it a private person or a community as long as someone cares.
And she is a beautiful happy young coloured woman which makes it even harder for her.

This is a difference between European and American thinking.  Europeans have always been subjects of their government.  Their king, dictator, or now their elected government.  You expect your government to be benevolent and care for you.

Americans, traditionally, have expected their government to stay out of their lives and out of their way.  If someone is truly in need, I have no problem taking care of them.  In this country there should never have been federal programs to care for people.  It should have been left to each state.  People have more control over their own states and programs.

If people have chosen welfare as a lifestyle, they should be ashamed.   If people have saved no money even though they have a good job, and find they are going to miss a paycheck or two, they should be ashamed to take from others.

AOC wants everyone to have everything free.  There is no free.  Someone pays for it, but she seems not to have a clue about who or how.  She is a socialist and socialism always ends with everyone doing poorly.  Never does socialism lift up a society, and never do people who depend on welfare achieve wealth unless they are willing to get off welfare and do what it takes to succeed. 

Jesus didn't advocate for government welfare.  He instructed us to be charitable.  That is a personal duty and a choice.

Hi kathyp!
interesting post.
I don`t know if there is so much history behind the state "caring" for its inhabitants. Or vice verca: them EXPECTING it. It all started with some companies putting in to healthcare and retirement-services for their employees. social welfare came a lot later and is not so very old, really.

If it is really true what you say: the state keeping out of your life: great! I am envious.
Here, I go through quite a hassle to just build a little greenhouse or a garage. alomost forbidden at my place. e.g.
also, I was forced to use public water, instead of my own well. me off.
otherwise, I don`t feel all-too-much-on-a-leash. maybe I just don`t see it. Govt doesn`t poke its nose into my living-room, e.g.. Now, in the GDR things were different, no doubt.
You got to pay taxes, too?
How high is VAT, by the way?

Maybe social welfare is a way to get "calmer" societies". Bread and Games. The old romans knew about it.
Without any bad connotations: The bad neighbourhoods I saw in the US 30 years ago....I can`t imagine finding that in Germany or Switzerland or maybe Denmark or so. So maybe there is some good to it after all?
Apart from the non-good, I mean.
"Give the ones living on welfare more money and they will sit in front of the TV with just more beer." is a quote from a friend of mine, which might hit what you are aiming for.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 24, 2019, 02:45:56 am
kathyp,
thanks for the explanations. You are right about the different thinking, of course.

What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?
Yes I believe it is. A merciless thinking. No offense meant. It?s just I can?t understand the liberty in this. Freedom to go down?

Probably you know something about our welfare system. You are insured ( no choice) and when you get unemployed ( which is hard to do by the companies) you get unemployment support from the payers community.
After that you get "hartz 4" which is welfare money. While you get it you are obliged to look at the jobs the agency offers you, if you don?t take the job they will pay you less after some time.
This system is called "fordern und f?rdern" ( demand and help).

If you get a serious medical condition like cancer you will get retirement money paid by the community.
The costs of medical treatments are paid by the community.

The community has lobbies.
The only exception are the civil servant persons who do not have to pay into the community, which I find must be disestablished.
Those people make the laws and therefore should not be excempted.

Personally I think this is a very good system which had been proven good. If dignified survivability depends on every single person?s working ability this promotes criminality. It explains too why you need weapons.

you mean "Beamte"?
As far as I know, they are insured privately and costs for early retirement is carried by the state employing.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 24, 2019, 02:50:59 am
Quote
What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?

Lol.  No I don't think they should starve, but I also don't think that welfare should be a lifestyle choice for anyone who can work.  It has become that for many.  Yes, I do think charity should be the first solution for short term help.

We have unemployment insurance.  It is supposed to be limited to give you a chance to find another job.  We have free and reduced cost medical care for those who are poor.  In fact, if you include Medicare and Medicaid, over 1/2 the people in the country are getting some kind of government money for health care. 

I observe that Germans have a different mindset about things like medical care.  Your people are less apt to abuse the system.  I am not sure why.  If you look at something like the UKs NHS, the opposite is true. 

In this country the opposite is true for those on medical welfare.  They use and abuse the system.  There is no penalty for them if they do this.  For instance, If I skip a medical appointment that I have scheduled, I am going to get a bill in the mail.  It's a small one, but it is a penalty for not having the courtesy to cancel my appointment.  If a person is on welfare and dose that, there is no penalty.  The appointment sits empty because they did not have the courtesy to call.

There is a difference between someone who can't work and someone who chooses not to work, or chooses not to advance to the point of making a better wage.  We have a good economy and low unemployment.  There is no reason for healthy people to be sitting around doing nothing.

We should also note that this is a huge country with a diverse population.  We have 350 million people, not counting illegals.  "free stuff" for 350 million people has never been successfully tried.  India has more people and has given free health care a go, but it is only effective in the cities. 
Obamacare has already cost us a lot of our rural hospitals and providers.  Free will mean even more close.  Like India (or the UK) we will only get good care in a city.  In the UK, that's a short trip. Not a short trip here.

I think each country should do what works for them, but if you are going to spend all your money on welfare, you can't do things like field a military or pay your NATO bill.   :wink:

for medical care you can either be insured privately or by severeal" companies" offering a "normal" insurance. Waht got me off a few years past: All of a sudden I MUST BE INSURED. Before as business-man you could just choose to pay your bills as came in. now insurance is a must.

I live pretty rural and, of course, if you need an ambulance in winter.... well....there are helicopters, of course. nevertheless. I guess it`s not economic.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 24, 2019, 05:41:54 am
>A lot of us went through a poor period.

Most young adults when they leave home do, unless they have rich parents who are propping them up.  You have to work your way up in life.  I do see a difference in attitude today.  I was taught honest work was nothing to be ashamed of, whether it was shoveling horse manure, cleaning toilets or pouring concrete.  If it needs to be done, and it's not illegal, it's honest work.  Now people think they are being demeaned if they aren't highly paid or if they have to get dirty to do the work.

I had rich parents but they did not prop me up. My father spent all for himself and his hobbys leaving my mother and us three kids poor. Poor means no new clothes, not enough nourishment.
I remember myself and my siblings fighting over food. I was thin as a stick.

I had a good education though, it was paid for by state.

I left home at the age of 18, after being abused repeatedly by my father, before he went to the extreme. I was so poor I had some days a week no food for three years. I could have sued my parents but was too proud and did not want this because of ethics.

I did my three years education to have a degree and started a job which I now do for 37 years without a break. Worked myself up. I work with my hands and get dirty.
But I feel good to be independant.
While in an education my father got money from the state for me, as is common here. He never shared with me or paid for my education as he would be obliged to do.

I know welfare is expoloited, but I have met many persons who are not able to save money for old age.
Beside my day job I worked for 7 years as a dog trainer after paying for a degree. I met millionaires and welfare people.

I?ve met millionaires who buy their food at the charity market we have in town ( goods are cheaply sold there, it?s surplus or one day old food from discounters) until they were blocked.
I?ve met welfare people who shared everything. I?ve met hard working people who shared everything.

Today working with hands is despised. That?s sad.

My families ( mine and my husbands) always despised me because I have no academic degree.
Today I?m wealthy because of my husbands?heritage, otherwise we would be near poverty, since he works in industry too. But we don?t have to pay any debts, so it?s fine.

From my childhood experience I promised to myself never to be tight-fisted and always learn about people first before judging them.
It made me a strange person, I admit. But I?m rather proud I never submitted and stayed empathic.

By the way I have a gas and warning shot pistol, I went for a permission.
That was after a white old male neighbor asked me whether I am not afraid to live alone. That was at a time my husband went to work in a foreign country for his company, which he does often.
And I started to keep dogs then.

Now you know most about me. Thank you kindly for listening.

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 24, 2019, 05:54:59 am
Thanks, Sybille.

Was it a problem to get the permit? I applied, but no response yet.
can you fire pepper-rounds legally in self-defense?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 24, 2019, 06:35:00 am
Thanks, Sybille.

Was it a problem to get the permit? I applied, but no response yet.
can you fire pepper-rounds legally in self-defense?

You need a "polizeiliches F?hrungszeugnis" to purchase it.
You need a safe to store it at home, so your kids can?t take it.
I can take it with me in a handbag and hidden in my car, but I can?t show it. The pistol looks like a real one and police might react defensive. A problem with fireworks too, so I never show it around.
I can place it openly in my home when I?m at home.
I can use it in self defense in my home with pepper spray and do not have to speak a warning.
I can defend myself in public but have to speak a warning first ( which I will not do if I fear assault).
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 24, 2019, 08:26:16 am
Sybille I am sorry for you that your childhood was horrible!! Is this a common occurrence in Germany with rich and poor families alike?  Their is so much about my country that you do not understand so so different. As well as so much about other countries that I can not understand.  What kind of dogs do or did you train? I trained horses and dogs, stock dogs. I once was blessed with a GERMAN SHEPARD puppy. And not just any German Shepard puppy but from special stock. Their is a man that has training for navy seals who is close to my location . My cousin had a female German Shepard that was introduced, bred to  one of his "war" dogs. I received one of these puppies! He was built like "Bullet" on the old Roy Rogers re-run tv show. Do you know this show in Germany? This dog Tazz was So smart! He would follow hand signals as far away as he could see me. He and I could be a mile away from the barn and tell him Tazz, truck. He would be in the back of the truck waiting for me when I arrived back at the barn even if was a hour later, that I returned with one of the colts. It is my opinion, that training dogs is a gift from God. If a person can communicate with animals, who can not talk, then surely a person should be able to communicate with people who can? But I will confess Sometimes I prefer the animals!! Hee hee
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 24, 2019, 09:20:49 am
Thanks, Sybille.

Was it a problem to get the permit? I applied, but no response yet.
can you fire pepper-rounds legally in self-defense?

You need a "polizeiliches F?hrungszeugnis" to purchase it.
You need a safe to store it at home, so your kids can?t take it.
I can take it with me in a handbag and hidden in my car, but I can?t show it. The pistol looks like a real one and police might react defensive. A problem with fireworks too, so I never show it around.
I can place it openly in my home when I?m at home.
I can use it in self defense in my home with pepper spray and do not have to speak a warning.
I can defend myself in public but have to speak a warning first ( which I will not do if I fear assault).

I called the office today and they will get the f?hrungszeugnis themselves.
which kind of gun did you get?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 24, 2019, 10:25:33 am
Don't you think you should start another thread to discuss this?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Acebird on January 24, 2019, 10:46:39 am
Now you know most about me. Thank you kindly for listening.
Oh how this brings tears to my eyes.  By comparison I was born from a very rich family who could barely "stay ahead of the sheriff" (an expression that means financially barely making it).  We were showered with love, had a very nice house to live in, hand built by my father, and plenty of good food.  I was a pudgy kid back then and was noted as the last to leave the dinner table.  It did not come without reprimands when I was bad or helping out when work was required.  There was no sitting around in the house.  That was a sure way of getting more chores.  My mother was a naturally born boss who never made it out of high school but surely knew how to get things done.  She could have been an executive at Macy's.
Sybille, it is my belief that it was the state education that saved you and allowed you to break away from the life you once had.  This is why I believe that education should be 100% federal with absolutely no difference between one school and another no matter what location it is in.  I doubt if I will every see it.  I also believe you should earn the right to be in school based on effort not grades.  If you don't apply yourself then you are out of school and go to work (voluntary or involuntary).  Simple as that.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 24, 2019, 11:05:03 am
Don't you think you should start another thread to discuss this?

Good point iddee maybe  titled " Early life experiences & the art of Dog 🐶 training"
Let's find  some humor.. if humor can be found .... 😊😁. As Mr Roark would say smiles everyone, smiles!! I'm sure you love your dogs  Sybille as do I.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 24, 2019, 11:15:08 am
@ Ace.  Per my last post let's find some humor if humor can be found.. So, By the way Brian, I added a little to iddee's poem under the humor section. I hope you or iddee don't mind....
phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 24, 2019, 11:30:17 am
Quote
If it is really true what you say: the state keeping out of your life: great! I am envious.

Don't be too envious.  Our federal government has become more and more intrusive.  The more they give the more they control.  States do things like zoning and building permits.  Some are good about it and some are very restrictive.  Because we have 50 states, we have 50 places to go if we don't like what our state is doing.  This was the design.  Each state could do what its own people wanted.  There is very little the federal government is supposed to do, but they have long ago gone past that boundary. 

Quote
You got to pay taxes, too?
How high is VAT, by the way?

We pay taxes too.  We have no VAT tax which is a +.  We pay federal taxes and state taxes.  State taxes vary from state to state. 

Quote
From my childhood experience I promised to myself never to be tight-fisted and always learn about people first before judging them.
It made me a strange person, I admit. But I?m rather proud I never submitted and stayed empathic.

I find that people who have experience poverty tend to be the most generous.  But again, it is a choice.  I also find that most of the wealthy people I have known here, are generous.  I have done disaster relief for years and a lot of it is funded, especially locally, by very wealthy people who don't even want to be known.
I took a gazillionaire out on disaster runs with me, but I was sworn to silence about who he was.  He wanted to see what we did, but didn't want people to know he was donating money and supplies. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 24, 2019, 12:12:17 pm
I do not want to talk about guns anymore.

I only talked about my life because I do not want you to see me as a spoiled brat who wants to distribute money taken from tax payers.

With us it is not so common to donate a lot. The rich people hide their fortunes and accumulate them. They stay among each other.
I?ve met rich persons accumulating all money on their bank account and living like antisocial elements always complaining about life and envying everyone.
There is a saying in Germany: "sparen lernt man von den Reichen" ( you learn saving from the rich)
I call them Dagobert Duck People.

Phillip, a word about dog training: it was behavioral therapy and I saw a lot of kids getting massive bites from dogs.
I understood the dogs more than the people who did not set limits on them. No one really dangerous, they were made dangerous.
I pitied them so much I stopped training. I could not sleep at night thinking about their fates. Some were euthanized. Pitied the kids too.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 24, 2019, 12:46:57 pm
Quote
With us it is not so common to donate a lot. The rich people hide their fortunes and accumulate them. They stay among each other.
I?ve met rich persons accumulating all money on their bank account and living like antisocial elements always complaining about life and envying everyone.
There is a saying in Germany: "sparen lernt man von den Reichen" ( you learn saving from the rich)
I call them Dagobert Duck People.

Maybe it's a cultural thing.  Here it seems more an ideology thing.  People who believe the government should take care of things by way of taxes don't feel the need to either donate or volunteer as much.  What many of our rich people do is set up foundations.  Those foundations do charity work and they are tax protected.  What is funny about those people is that most of them want the government to do more, but they keep their money away from the government in private charity foundations.  They could voluntarily pay more taxes if they really believed the government would do a better job!   :grin:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 24, 2019, 12:53:51 pm
Kathyp,
your contributions are great! Thanks!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on January 24, 2019, 04:06:00 pm
When the government uses taxes for charities they are taking the money at the point of a gun. If you do not believe that, don?t pay your taxes and you will receive a visit by an armed policeman.
Jim

Exactly correct.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on January 24, 2019, 04:30:02 pm
... This is why I believe that education should be 100% federal with absolutely no difference between one school and another no matter what location it is in.   ...

Ace - I'd be curious to hear you explain why you think this.

The needs of kids vary -the Brightest kids need an entirely different education than the Average .i.q, and the Challenged have their own varying needs that reasonably should be met.

Some need emphasis on arts, others on mechanics - trades, etc, and some on management and finance.

These needs change based on location and background also (farming communities, vs metropolis).

There's only 1 place that you can make everyone "equal" - that place is "Rock Bottom". Individuals can always be "brought down", but there are some that can't be scraped off "The Bottom" with a spoon. Thus, the only place equality can be achieved.

Why would you think every school needs to be a Carbon Copy of the next? Just curious. ...

Alan
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 24, 2019, 10:58:50 pm
SiWolKe
''Phillip, a word about dog training: it was behavioral therapy and I saw a lot of kids getting massive bites from dogs.
I understood the dogs more than the people who did not set limits on them. No one really dangerous, they were made dangerous.
I pitied them so much I stopped training. I could not sleep at night thinking about their fates. Some were euthanized. Pitied the kids too''

I understand what you are talking about. Once I got a call form a family of two small children, This family had raised a Australian Blue Heeler. Beautiful dog. This type dog makes great stock dog and good friend! The family children were young and small for this dog. Constantly, these children would pick him up by his head, his ear, causing pain for this puppy. As he grew older, he slowly became defensive, until one day, he had, had enough of humans. He hated humans! All of his life,  all he had known was abuse. The family had taken him to the pound, (SHELTER), but the dog was classified as an aggressive vicious dog and the Animal Shelter, after evaluating him, said he would not be put up for adoption, but euthanized. The Mom and Dad did not want to see the dog put to sleep. I was called. I took the dog and could not touch him or pet him. He meant business! The dad put my collar on him and slowly gingerly put him into he carrying kennel.  All the while the dog was growling at the dad, lips quivering, teeth flashing!! I knew I had my hands full! This animal was so beautiful!! Yet he was sentenced to death row! I was the only hope left for him. I desperately wanted to save him, to become friends with him. Each day before going to work I would go the him, talk to him, offer to him kind affection. Feed him from my hand, all the while he would growl at me and show his teeth even while eating from my hand.  Nothing kind to him seemed to work. No matter how kind, how concerned for him I was, he hated me!  After two weeks, of doing all possible to gain his trust, his friendship their was no change for the good.  I would sit down just out of his reach  and talk to him, no good came of it. His mind was made up, all mankind was his enemy. One day I came home form work and a big tree limb had fallen form a tree into his gracious yard, he had a really nice dog house. plenty of room plenty of shade etc.  Anyway one day I came home and a  limb had fallen form the tree and was tangled up in his chain! I said boy you need help. Now I am your friend. I am going to reach down and slowly untangle you. Do not bite me boy.  I reached down slowly, easily touched his head to pet. As every other time he growled, showing his teeth, with lips quivering. I could feel the tenseness in his feel. He was ready and willing to bite me, this I knew. I also knew he needed help so  I said , boy I am your friend. I am here to help you. I am trying to save your life from death row. Now don't bite me boy. I reached to untangle the chain and he attacked me.. He had my hand and meant business. I still have the scars!  My patience had ran out. Kindness or goodness didn't work with him and was either save him or let them kill him. So what did I do?  If you are interested tell me so and I will tell you the rest. I am tired and worn out as my Daddy is very sick in the hospital and I have been back and forth doing all I can to to help him. Going to bed.
Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 25, 2019, 06:22:57 am
Phillip, I pm-ed you. Did you get the message?
My prayers go out to your dad. Best to you.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 25, 2019, 07:13:05 am
Ben, it's your business what you do, but it would not take a minute to write "He finally came around", or "He never came around". If you ever leave a post dangling like that again, I will block you and never read another of your posts.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 25, 2019, 07:56:52 am
Quote
If it is really true what you say: the state keeping out of your life: great! I am envious.

Don't be too envious.  Our federal government has become more and more intrusive.  The more they give the more they control.  States do things like zoning and building permits.  Some are good about it and some are very restrictive.  Because we have 50 states, we have 50 places to go if we don't like what our state is doing.  This was the design.  Each state could do what its own people wanted.  There is very little the federal government is supposed to do, but they have long ago gone past that boundary. 

Quote
You got to pay taxes, too?
How high is VAT, by the way?

We pay taxes too.  We have no VAT tax which is a +.  We pay federal taxes and state taxes.  State taxes vary from state to state. 

Quote
From my childhood experience I promised to myself never to be tight-fisted and always learn about people first before judging them.
It made me a strange person, I admit. But I?m rather proud I never submitted and stayed empathic.

I find that people who have experience poverty tend to be the most generous.  But again, it is a choice.  I also find that most of the wealthy people I have known here, are generous.  I have done disaster relief for years and a lot of it is funded, especially locally, by very wealthy people who don't even want to be known.
I took a gazillionaire out on disaster runs with me, but I was sworn to silence about who he was.  He wanted to see what we did, but didn't want people to know he was donating money and supplies.

I thougth there were taxes on goods you purchased? I remember taxes being even different from one county to the next?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 25, 2019, 08:09:25 am
Phillip, I pm-ed you. Did you get the message?
My prayers go out to your dad. Best to you.

Thanks SiWolke, no I have not yet read your PM yet but will now, I'm running from here to there and everywhere in between 😊. Once I arrive at the hospital and get settled in I will answer you. Thank you for your kindness and concern at a time like this. Thank you for your prayers, much needed and appreciated.
Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Acebird on January 25, 2019, 08:28:25 am
The needs of kids vary -the Brightest kids need an entirely different education than the Average .i.q, and the Challenged have their own varying needs that reasonably should be met.
I agree 100%.   Every school system should have this opportunity for its students as the need arises and they don't.  And it is worse then that because where the need is cannot be supported by local people due to wealth.  The financial burden for education should be spread out among the whole country not each individual local.  The system we have now is nothing more then the haves vs. the have nots. 
Remember, I said based on "effort" not on intellect.  Not everyone can be the brightest star but you can put in the effort to do what you are capable of doing.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2019, 11:00:02 am
Quote
I thougth there were taxes on goods you purchased? I remember taxes being even different from one county to the next?

Sales tax.  It's a little different than a VAT tax.  It is a tax on the final purchase price.  VAT adds tax all along the path of production and sale.

Yes, taxes depend on where you live.  There are federal taxes for SSI, Medicare, the federal gas tax, and others depending on what you are doing. States have taxes too and they are often more than federal taxes in total.  Those are usually sales tax, property tax, income tax, gas tax, and depending on where you live, a tax on the air you breath!  :-D

In my state there is no sales tax, in Washington state, there is no income tax.  That sounds really good, but they get you with high "fees" for things like car registration, gas, etc.

In the design of the US, the states were meant to have more power than the federal government.  This way, if we did not like what our state did we had more control.  If we couldn't change things we could move to a state that was more to our liking and needs.

Even with all those taxes, ours are generally lower overall than what is paid in Europe.  We also have graduated taxes so that the wealthy pay more.  You will never hear me bash the wealthy.  They pay the majority of the taxes!


Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2019, 02:37:53 pm
The needs of kids vary -the Brightest kids need an entirely different education than the Average .i.q, and the Challenged have their own varying needs that reasonably should be met.
I agree 100%.   Every school system should have this opportunity for its students as the need arises and they don't.  And it is worse then that because where the need is cannot be supported by local people due to wealth.  The financial burden for education should be spread out among the whole country not each individual local.  The system we have now is nothing more then the haves vs. the have nots. 
Remember, I said based on "effort" not on intellect.  Not everyone can be the brightest star but you can put in the effort to do what you are capable of doing.

Hmm - not sure I understood you response there - but I'm a little slow sometimes ...

There are 2 main approaches to structuring a society ...

Equal opportunity - where every person is given an equal chance to succeed as they enter this world. Their personal choices determine where they end up. This is the Conservative approach to go government.

OR

Equal Outcome - where everyone is provided an equal share, regardless of what they input. This includes an equal education, and equal pay later in life. This is the Socialist/Communist/Progressive approach to government.


Keep in mind that Equal Opportunity accounts for each person's talents and therefore does not provide an equal education - rather an equal system where each has the opportunity to keep rising, based on their intellect, and hard work ethics. Example: everyone is provided and Equal Opportunity to go to Princeton University - but only those that were the smartest AND worked the hardest are allowed to attend and later go onto a career as a highly paid Rocket Scientist (or whatever)

Conversely, Equal Outcome provides a single path of equal educational. Later, individual inputs of hard work and individual talent are balanced out with equal pay. Example: everyone gets to go to Princeton, but the education level provided has to be reduced so that the lowest intellect/work ethic combination can graduate.

Which approach were you supporting with your statement? ... if you could clarify for me please?

Alan
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Dallasbeek on January 25, 2019, 02:57:05 pm
Ben, it's your business what you do, but it would not take a minute to write "He finally came around", or "He never came around". If you ever leave a post dangling like that again, I will block you and never read another of your posts.

Ben,

I won't go as far as Iddee, but of course we want to know the end of your story -- shaggy dog or otherwise.  We woildn't have read that far if not interested, but I for one feel a bit cheated.  Finish the bliking story, man.  I know my patience (with the dog) would have run out long before yours.  Some dogs and some people are so damaged they are beyond help, I think, and when we've done all we can for them, we simply have to give up and protect ourselves and society.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2019, 03:14:23 pm
Quote
The financial burden for education should be spread out among the whole country not each individual local.  The system we have now is nothing more then the haves vs. the have nots.

I don't necessarily disagree with this part.  Right now the haves pay for public education and the have nots get a free ride.  I would be far happier paying for public education through HS if we had school choice.  Right now I am paying for government-run education which leaves both smart/driven, and slower students in the dust and focuses on getting the muddy middle to graduation.

Where I disagree is with your idea that the public schools should be run on a national level.   Education stamped out like shortbread cookies is going to leave a lot of kids uneducated at the lower level.  It's already happening.  My state has money but has one of the worst graduation rates.  They throw more money at it routinely but the problem is not lack of spending, it is the wasteful bureaucracy.  in this leftist state, we finally got a Republican Secretary of State.  One of the first things he did was an audit of the public school system.  Among other waste, he found two retirement parties that spent over 30,000 dollars each.  How does this advance learning?  Additionally, the benefit and retirement package for public employees is HUGE and they do not pay into it.
The larger the bureaucracy, the bigger the waste of money and lower the accountability. 

The public education system in this country is broken in a way that can't be fixed.  Time to scrap it and try something else.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: jvalentour on January 25, 2019, 04:17:35 pm
RE:  Cost of Education per Child in Ohio

I took a moment to compare costs of education in my state.  I wanted to get an idea of who was paying.

In my local district, Centerville, Ohio, the cost is approximately $10,000 per student.  Of the $10,000, 70% is paid in local taxes.  30% is paid in state and federal tax.  Since the locals pay into federal and state as well we can just estimate that the local population pays about 72% of all the costs to educate their children.  Centerville is considered a wealthy district.

In a neighboring district, City of Dayton, the cost is approximately $13,000 per student.  Of the $13,000, 20% is paid in local tax.  80% is paid in state and federal tax.  We can estimate that the locals in the City of Dayton pay about 22% of their children's education.  We could also say that the citizens of Centerville are paying a piece of the City of Dayton Education.  Dayton is considered a poor district.

The numbers signify that the middle class and wealthy are paying a disproportionate share of the education expenses in Ohio.  The wealthy and middle class districts are forced to fund education thru local levies because the state and feds have deemed them wealthy and can support themselves, therefore, have reduced the fed and state contribution. 

My estimates are not exact, I expect the middle class actually bears a higher burden than I attempted to illustrate. 

For your reference:
http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Finance-and-Funding/Finance-Related-Data/Expenditure-and-Revenue/Expenditure-Per-Pupil-Rankings
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 25, 2019, 05:15:03 pm
Ben, it's your business what you do, but it would not take a minute to write "He finally came around", or "He never came around". If you ever leave a post dangling like that again, I will block you and never read another of your posts.

AT EASE SOLDIER!
I had been up with very little sleep for the past several  days and nights. Between taking care of my dad back and forth to the hospital day and night. Taking care of my business, and taking care of my families needs. I have been on the go. While sitting up with my dad it has been my pleasure to talk, reason, and debate with my friends here. That was until my dad took a turn for the worse. I consider each of you my friend irregardless of your opinion of me, or weather you do or do not agree with me, at least we can talk, discuss and try to express, and listen to others views. I had become, completely worn out without sleep or rest. Now we all have situations, circumstances beyond our control in life to deal with and take care of. There are different seasons for everyone. Several continuous days left me with my eyes barely open, and exhausted.  I started out to answer Sibylle , Never intending to go so deep and so long. There comes a point that our bodies have to have sleep. I reached that point!! The post had already become to long as it was, maybe the longest post I have made here. And no SOLDIER, I was not going to short cut it, without a COMPLETED expiation. And the subject did end with the dog and quiet well, I may add. Now, looking back, I should have simply answered her in a PM or waited until today to answer her post, but I didn't!  Now, EVER since I have BEEN here, I have NEVER no NEVER heard you threaten to block anyone.. Under ANY circumstances. And for this I have bit my lip. I have restrained my speech, So do what you feel you need to do. Once again I am disappointed in you .  DISMISSED...

To the rest of you I send out my humblest apologies, I will happily send the rest of the story when all stabilizes here. I sincerely hope non of the rest of you feel as ill, toward me about this as (Mr THICK Skin)


Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Acebird on January 25, 2019, 05:53:41 pm

There are 2 main approaches to structuring a society ...

Equal opportunity - where every person is given an equal chance to succeed as they enter this world. Their personal choices determine where they end up. This is the Conservative approach to go government.

OR

Equal Outcome - where everyone is provided an equal share, regardless of what they input. This includes an equal education, and equal pay later in life. This is the Socialist/Communist/Progressive approach to government.

Alan

Only two Alan?  I don't think so.  There are a number of mixes and matches of the two systems you stated.  Most systems state wide are a system of wealth and segregation.  It is far worse here in FL then it is in NY but both states do the same.
Me personally, I am totally against the concept of too dumb to fail and lowering the standards so no one fails.  But I am all for equalizing education so that those that want to succeed are not limited by their family income.  That leaves too many good brains left behind.  When that happens the whole country suffers.  Education and vocational training is too important to the country in a world economy.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Acebird on January 25, 2019, 05:57:07 pm
Ben Wally is being sarcastic.  Sarcasm is a hard form of humor to get across with just a type writer.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 25, 2019, 06:04:56 pm
Ben Wally is being sarcastic.  Sarcasm is a hard form of humor to get across with just a type writer.

Ace, I hope your right. As you see I didn't take it that way. And let me add. If anyone would know it would be you !  You two crack me up!! 😊 Thanks Ace for speaking out for our friend..
Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on January 25, 2019, 06:10:12 pm
Only two Alan?  I don't think so.  There are a number of mixes and matches of the two systems you stated.  Most systems state wide are a system of wealth and segregation.  It is far worse here in FL then it is in NY but both states do the same.
Me personally, I am totally against the concept of too dumb to fail and lowering the standards so no one fails.  But I am all for equalizing education so that those that want to succeed are not limited by their family income.  That leaves too many good brains left behind.  When that happens the whole country suffers.  Education and vocational training is too important to the country in a world economy.

Brian - Of course you are right, there are many "mixes" of the equations. I only listed The Main avenues of thought - as it were.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "Equalizing Education". Between No Child Left Behind, and Common Core, the curriculum in the schools has been standardized by the Federal government (as I understand it). So - if I understand correctly - every classroom in every school, public and private, is now teaching the same classes from the same books. Whether I agree or not, is for the moment irrelevant. For now, I'm trying to understand what it is about the school system that you would like to see "more equalized"? ... and what you currently see as "Un-Equal" in the education system as is stands today.

The reason I ask: It is my observation that we all want to see the System (country, world, Education, etc) fixed and/or improved - you, me, and most everyone else. However, we don't all see the same problems, we don't communicate with each other (nearly enough), and so we end up "At Odds". If we communicate together, we may just find that we are really all on the same page. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: jvalentour on January 25, 2019, 07:38:03 pm
Ben,
iddee is too curious to block anyone. 
Perhaps we should add /S at the end of our comment.
/S= sarcasm
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 25, 2019, 07:55:12 pm
Quote
But I am all for equalizing education so that those that want to succeed are not limited by their family income.  That leaves too many good brains left behind.  When that happens the whole country suffers.  Education and vocational training is too important to the country in a world economy.

School choice fixes this without the feds taking over
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 25, 2019, 10:53:30 pm
Ben,
iddee is too curious to block anyone. 
Perhaps we should add /S at the end of our comment.
/S= sarcasm

Thanks jvalentour, Perhaps he would like to add horses   //s to mine.  He has every right.  My dad took a real bad turn for the worse, Double pneumonia intensive care not counting the other problems he went for in the first place. I would like to ask all my Christian friends to pray for him. Thanks friends for your PM's  I hope to answer you soon. So much going on.

Thanks, Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 26, 2019, 04:34:34 am
I would like to ask all my Christian friends to pray for him.

I?m not exactly a christian, but I will pray for you anyway if you will be so kind to accept this.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 26, 2019, 04:49:14 am
Our school system right now changes very much.

Many parents are afraid that less intelligent students could worsen the level. Especially when refugees and immigrants are in classes.
That's why they are looking for private schools. This divides society and promotes prejudice.

In the past it was normal to send students with difficulties to special special needs schools, after which they could better survive in the society.
But in the process of equality, the parents of these students want an inclusion.

This is very bad because it does not help anyone. The special and special schools should be seen positively again.

Also, there has been a trend that teachers are often overwhelmed with today's students and do not want to make educational efforts. The behavior of the students has become much more difficult because many parents work both and have less time and desire for education, in addition to the cultural differences.

The education and recognition of every work-related effort, be it manual or intellectual, is a major challenge that we must face today.

In Germany, the tax system is very unfair. The rich have many more opportunities for tax evasion and are taxed equally in percentage terms which leads to big income difference. This was done because they were believed to be more supportive of the economy. But this has proved to be a mistake, the money goes abroad and the brunt of the tax is provided by the middle class.

When elected today, no party is chosen because it has the appropriate future versions.
It is chosen as revenge a party that contradicts the other, as a protest, so to speak.

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on January 26, 2019, 07:29:25 am
""at least we can talk, discuss and try to express,""

At 6 AM, and the coffee not finished perking, I might be just a BIT irritable. Then to be left on the cliff like that took me by surprise and I hit back.

Unless a person is perfect, they will irritate someone now and then. I think we both did that there. Life goes on. Consider your post a mistake and mine a reprimand. Now we continue with life.

NO GRUDGES  Sorry about your dad.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 26, 2019, 08:01:28 am
""at least we can talk, discuss and try to express,""

At 6 AM, and the coffee not finished perking, I might be just a BIT irritable. Then to be left on the cliff like that took me by surprise and I hit back.

Unless a person is perfect, they will irritate someone now and then. I think we both did that there. Life goes on. Consider your post a mistake and mine a reprimand. Now we continue with life.

NO GRUDGES  Sorry about your dad.

No grudges here either you old grump! 😊😁. Thanks, headed  back to check on him. PS I will be your wing man any time... Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 26, 2019, 09:00:28 am
Our school system right now changes very much.

Many parents are afraid that less intelligent students could worsen the level. Especially when refugees and immigrants are in classes.
That's why they are looking for private schools. This divides society and promotes prejudice.

In the past it was normal to send students with difficulties to special special needs schools, after which they could better survive in the society.
But in the process of equality, the parents of these students want an inclusion.

This is very bad because it does not help anyone. The special and special schools should be seen positively again.

Also, there has been a trend that teachers are often overwhelmed with today's students and do not want to make educational efforts. The behavior of the students has become much more difficult because many parents work both and have less time and desire for education, in addition to the cultural differences.

The education and recognition of every work-related effort, be it manual or intellectual, is a major challenge that we must face today.

In Germany, the tax system is very unfair. The rich have many more opportunities for tax evasion and are taxed equally in percentage terms which leads to big income difference. This was done because they were believed to be more supportive of the economy. But this has proved to be a mistake, the money goes abroad and the brunt of the tax is provided by the middle class.

When elected today, no party is chosen because it has the appropriate future versions.
It is chosen as revenge a party that contradicts the other, as a protest, so to speak.

You got a very negative outlook on life in Germany!

As a former teacher I have to say: It is not the students where both parents work that are a problem. The worst are those where both parents still lie in bed when the student has to go to school....
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 26, 2019, 10:47:21 am
My husband was a former teacher too, but it was 25 years ago and what I hear from my company co-workers who are parents with schoolkids is exactly what I posted.

I don?t know anyone who lies in bed when his child leaves to go to school, but I know some who are at the day job before the child has to rise.

And what I and my husband hears from teacher aquaintances is exactly what I said too. Times have changed much the last years, starting with agenda 10.

And yes, we plan to move to sweden in old age, which regulates even more but not in such an unjust way. With our low pensions we will have a good life there, not be poor like here because of those running expenses.

The next ten years we will be forced to insulate our home or pay penalty tax, have a new heating system because we still have oil heating, pay more nursing care insurance, pay more land tax, pay more for energy....this will not stop when we are retired.
Plus we will not get any money selling our diesel car so maybe pay some penalty tax for keeping it.

Right now we pay half our income for all duties and pension will be under 50% of our last income from which we have to pay the social charges furthermore.

By the way the wife of an official get?s a pension paid by tax payers higher than my husband?s and my today?s income together, although she never paid into that system.
That?s more unfair than paying welfare to those in need.


Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on January 26, 2019, 11:24:59 am
I would like to ask all my Christian friends to pray for him.

I?m not exactly a christian, but I will pray for you anyway if you will be so kind to accept this.

Thank you so much. Your kindness and love is always accepted,  but not only accepted, also  very much appreciated! I am happy to know you and call you friend! You speak from a honest heart, no matter the subject.  My Christian Bible tells me that God Loves a Honest heart ❤️!!! 
Thank you Sibylle,

Sincerely, Phillip
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 26, 2019, 12:22:41 pm
Quote
Many parents are afraid that less intelligent students could worsen the level. Especially when refugees and immigrants are in classes.
That's why they are looking for private schools. This divides society and promotes prejudice.


In Germany, the tax system is very unfair. The rich have many more opportunities for tax evasion and are taxed equally in percentage terms which leads to big income difference. This was done because they were believed to be more supportive of the economy. But this has proved to be a mistake, the money goes abroad and the brunt of the tax is provided by the middle class.

here we have a history of many people from many places.  That is not a problem.  What has become a problem is that they are not assimilating as they used to.  Part of that is the fault of the school system.  We have schools where 30 different languages are spoken.  Instead of insisting the kids learn English, they hire special teachers for them.  Not only does this cost a lot, but studies have shown the kids do not learn English quickly or at all.

Our press will tell you that our public schools are failing for lack of money.  This is untrue.  Our public schools are failing because teaching basics have given way to making sure no one feels bad.  They do not fail students.  They do not challenge students.  They teach "conflict resolution" rather than Algebra.  They worry that everyone has 3 meals a day rather than teaching biology or reading classics.

All of the energy goes to providing equal outcome rather than a good education for those who will take advantage of it.

For that reason, I am in favor of the tax money going with the child and the child/parents being able to choose any school, public or private for their education.

I am in favor of a flat tax but mine would be different from most proposed.  Everyone would pay the same % regardless of income source.  Welfare to rich.  Deductions would be slashed or done away with.  A flat tax is fair.  Everyone is invested so everyone cares.  The graduated tax we have here is unfair.  almost 50% of our population pays no federal tax at all and some get back more than what was deducted.  The wealthy here pay the majority of the tax, but use a smaller portion of the services at both the federal and state level.

people should not be punished because they do well.  Success should be encouraged. 


Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2019, 01:52:07 pm

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "Equalizing Education". Between No Child Left Behind, and Common Core, the curriculum in the schools has been standardized by the Federal government (as I understand it). So - if I understand correctly - every classroom in every school, public and private, is now teaching the same classes from the same books.

Are you kidding me Alan?  We are so far away from that goal.  Also, to be equal the qualifications for the teachers would be the same.  Do you think they are?
Kathy wants to fix it so "school choices" can further segregate the haves between the haves nots.  I have a friend down here in Palm Beach that pays 20 grad a year per student for a charter school to keep her kids out of the public school system.  Do you think she is paying 20 grand because they are equal?  I don't believe there is any such thing as equal education anywhere in the country.  And now that there is a dig bat that knows nothing about education running the countries education wing ... right, more charter schools, more segregation, more inequality.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2019, 02:01:39 pm
A flat tax is fair.

Wow!  Yes, it is fair if every entity pays.  The problem is good luck getting that passed because the wealthy can avoid taxes with what we have now.  The wealthy can buy the politicians so it isn't going to change.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: jvalentour on January 26, 2019, 02:22:21 pm
I don't know Ace....
I sent #4 from a good public school system to a private HS.  The values of the private were more in line with my family than the system #1, #2 and #3 had graduated from.  Public schools are just that, public, homogenized, and straight line thinkers.  Many, not all teachers, could care less about the kids.  As time passed we watched a good school system begin to fail it's students.  Much of this was caused by government intervention.  (Please take a look at the school comparison link I provided earlier).  Administrators who have been around awhile will agree.  My spouse is a special education teacher, has been for many years.  In many ways, she says, schools are not so much about teaching, they are about data collection.  The Federal government $ has dictated how schools teach.

In comparison to the public schools;  The private school staff are generally paid less, benefits are not as good, and the parents are more demanding.  The private school staff are there for the love of teaching (and in many cases spreading the word of God).  I was particularly impressed at nearly every parent meeting, the principal and speakers would say "Thank you for sending your child to our school".  You don't get that in public very often.  My kid got a very good education, for my money, I was pleased.

I also think that if your friend is paying his school tax like all the other residents in his area, he certainly has the choice to send his child to whatever schools he see fit.  Bad schools should fail, good schools should thrive.  Vouchers provide the vehicle for poor to leave the failing schools.  You will also notice in the link I provided how the Feds are throwing money at failing schools. 

My opinion it that successful schools are successful because of their gene pool, not tax money, not teachers, it's parents who care and put effort into a child's education. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 26, 2019, 03:48:50 pm
Quote
Instead of insisting the kids learn English, they hire special teachers for them.

That?s very interesting!
I am part of an association which wants our local town to be attractive, so we offer speakings and events on different topics.

My co-members told me we should spend our money ( we get fees for speakings) for hiring a teacher who teaches english to our 1000 refugee children and juveniles.
English? Many of the towns people don?t speak english. The refugees are in Germany and we want them to speak german. So we refused ( they have a private teacher educating them in german).
We offered to initiate events for the newcomers instead where they will learn something about our culture, our ethics, religion and cohabitation, since they mostly are moslems we want to teach them about women?s rights.

I?m with you Kathy. Immigrants should learn the language of the country that took them in. They want this,I?m sure, but are not in a position to demand this.
I?ve met some who can speak a better german than some natives... :cheesy:

I myself want to live in sweden and started to learn the language.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2019, 12:28:13 am
Quote
right, more charter schools, more segregation, more inequality.

More choice.  Do you think all kids learn the same?  Do you think they all want to do the same things after school?  Shouldn't a kid who wants to go into a trade have the chance to include that in education?  The kid who wants to go to the top college in the world should have a chance to prep for that without taking auto shop.

Quote
Wow!  Yes, it is fair if every entity pays.  The problem is good luck getting that passed because the wealthy can avoid taxes with what we have now.  The wealthy can buy the politicians so it isn't going to change.

here it would be the opposite.  The wealthy here can avoid some taxes, but they still pay the majority of all taxes.  The lower 50% pays little to no taxes so they would be the ones protesting a change.  I think if you can vote, you should be putting into the system so that you care what the system is doing.  Otherwise, you only care if you get your stuff.

Quote
I also think that if your friend is paying his school tax like all the other residents in his area, he certainly has the choice to send his child to whatever schools he see fit.  Bad schools should fail, good schools should thrive.  Vouchers provide the vehicle for poor to leave the failing schools.  You will also notice in the link I provided how the Feds are throwing money at failing schools. 

Exactly.  Attach the money to the child and not to the school.  Choice.

Quote
The refugees are in Germany and we want them to speak german

I consider the story of the tower of Bable to have been a warning.  A common language is a large part of national identity and unity. 

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2019, 12:43:45 am
SiWolKe

This is why I don't bash wealthy people.  Even though this is about bezos, it gives an idea of what the wealthy do in this country.  They donate more than the GDP of some countries  :grin:
Of course, they are also the ones who tend to say the government should take more and do more.  I don't think they really believe that because foundations are tax sheltered and they could donate that money to the government if they really thought it would spend more wisely. 


https://nypost.com/2019/01/26/jeff-bezos-gives-a-pitiful-amount-of-his-160b-fortune-to-charity/

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 27, 2019, 04:01:16 am
My husband was a former teacher too, but it was 25 years ago and what I hear from my company co-workers who are parents with schoolkids is exactly what I posted.

I don?t know anyone who lies in bed when his child leaves to go to school, but I know some who are at the day job before the child has to rise.

And what I and my husband hears from teacher aquaintances is exactly what I said too. Times have changed much the last years, starting with agenda 10.

And yes, we plan to move to sweden in old age, which regulates even more but not in such an unjust way. With our low pensions we will have a good life there, not be poor like here because of those running expenses.

The next ten years we will be forced to insulate our home or pay penalty tax, have a new heating system because we still have oil heating, pay more nursing care insurance, pay more land tax, pay more for energy....this will not stop when we are retired.
Plus we will not get any money selling our diesel car so maybe pay some penalty tax for keeping it.

Right now we pay half our income for all duties and pension will be under 50% of our last income from which we have to pay the social charges furthermore.

By the way the wife of an official get?s a pension paid by tax payers higher than my husband?s and my today?s income together, although she never paid into that system.
That?s more unfair than paying welfare to those in need.

I have had plenty of those students. I mean the ones on welfare, like the ones kathy described.

We have to deal with all the above, too. Including three practically worth-less diesels... I am not an official, I was an "Angestellter" - employee. The pay and pensiondifferneces there are pretty unjust.
There will be unjust things in pretty much any country.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 27, 2019, 04:07:42 am
Rich people need to identify with the state to donate.
I don?t see this thinking here. All surplus money is moved to the foreign countries to save tax.

Here in Germany, all parties except the AfD have committed to the left-green policy. That means we have a left-wing dictatorship right now, the only alternative is to vote for the populist AfD, which is unthinkable for many (including me).

We are an export nation, to sustain that, wages rise far too little.

To save the euro, there is the zero interest rate policy, which makes it unattractive to save. But it is necessary to provide for old age privately, otherwise the standard of living in old age can not be maintained.

In addition to finance the euro there was privatization of the real estate and the stop of the state social housing construction, which increased the rents strongly, so strong that the first trailer parks develop on the outskirts, because humans can afford no more housing. Unlike abroad, many Germans have no home ownership.

Now they want to force house owners to rescue this policy by renting out if they have rooms to spare. Otherwise there will be a punishment tax.

Sooner or later everything will collapse, because politics does not dare to reform.
Then all savings will be lost and there will be a popular uprising.
As will be with reformation.

People tend to call the fire brigades when the house already burns.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 27, 2019, 04:14:58 am
Quote
Many parents are afraid that less intelligent students could worsen the level. Especially when refugees and immigrants are in classes.
That's why they are looking for private schools. This divides society and promotes prejudice.


In Germany, the tax system is very unfair. The rich have many more opportunities for tax evasion and are taxed equally in percentage terms which leads to big income difference. This was done because they were believed to be more supportive of the economy. But this has proved to be a mistake, the money goes abroad and the brunt of the tax is provided by the middle class.

here we have a history of many peop
le from many places.  That is not a problem.  What has become a problem is that they are not assimilating as they used to.  Part of that is the fault of the school system.  We have schools where 30 different languages are spoken.  Instead of insisting the kids learn English, they hire special teachers for them.  Not only does this cost a lot, but studies have shown the kids do not learn English quickly or at all.

Our press will tell you that our public schools are failing for lack of money.  This is untrue.  Our public schools are failing because teaching basics have given way to making sure no one feels bad.  They do not fail students.  They do not challenge students.  They teach "conflict resolution" rather than Algebra.  They worry that everyone has 3 meals a day rather than teaching biology or reading classics.

All of the energy goes to providing equal outcome rather than a good education for those who will take advantage of it.

For that reason, I am in favor of the tax money going with the child and the child/parents being able to choose any school, public or private for their education.

I am in favor of a flat tax but mine would be different from most proposed.  Everyone would pay the same % regardless of income source.  Welfare to rich.  Deductions would be slashed or done away with.  A flat tax is fair.  Everyone is invested so everyone cares.  The graduated tax we have here is unfair.  almost 50% of our population pays no federal tax at all and some get back more than what was deducted.  The wealthy here pay the majority of the tax, but use a smaller portion of the services at both the federal and state level.

people should not be punished because they do well.  Success should be encouraged.

It seems school systems arre heading the same way....
I spent my senior year in high school in Ohio. After that two years more to gain "high school" in Germyn, which is quite a differnet thing, you can imagine. It is or at least used to be more like college, first couple years or so.
So as levels go down, we - thank God - still have a tripartite system with "Main-School", "Middle-School" and "High-School". But all parents want their childeren to go to high....
As an attendee i roughly judge, may the middle and main would correspond to "high-school" in US. Whereas the high-school in the US is more like a "general-school" as is used in some of the "socialist" states, where you can gain any of the three levels on ONE school. Not a good idea in my opinion.
As a rule, if you choose one school, you can always gain the higher levels afterwards, there are many different ways and schools for that. all puclicly and freely available.
Education is a state-afair here, as is police. Just recently the federeal government tried to go for some right of the states, but our prime-minister went against it, although they would have gotten a lot of money for it.

"getting everybody throuhg" - is a horrible thing, kathy, it is more or less being done here, too.
got a student in the evenings once a week. teach him some math. well, try to, anyways. as an aeronautical engineer I usually use the picture: An "A minus" (not an "A" barely) will come down again and kill many people. NOT acceptable.
He is far from that, put couldn?t consider him stupid. Just - very uninterested. School is a lot of entertainment these days, it seems? I felt like I was expected to be an entertainer in my schooling-time, too. i got pretty sick of all this and am quite glad I got rid of that job. Instead of teaching facts, I had to teach how to behave, how to sweep the black board, how to sweep the floor. Cause hardly any of the students could do this right. Although most were almost 18 and might vote soon....
o well.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 27, 2019, 04:19:44 am
@kathy:
of course do the richt pay the max proportion of the taxes here. the poorer ones don?t pay taxes, just like your place.
middle-classe pays taxes, too, of course.
there is a saying: "gotta work till April for the gov`t, after that I work for me".
somewhere along that line...
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on January 27, 2019, 04:24:26 am
Rich people need to identify with the state to donate.
I don?t see this thinking here. All surplus money is moved to the foreign countries to save tax.

Here in Germany, all parties except the AfD have committed to the left-green policy. That means we have a left-wing dictatorship right now, the only alternative is to vote for the populist AfD, which is unthinkable for many (including me).

We are an export nation, to sustain that, wages rise far too little.

To save the euro, there is the zero interest rate policy, which makes it unattractive to save. But it is necessary to provide for old age privately, otherwise the standard of living in old age can not be maintained.

In addition to finance the euro there was privatization of the real estate and the stop of the state social housing construction, which increased the rents strongly, so strong that the first trailer parks develop on the outskirts, because humans can afford no more housing. Unlike abroad, many Germans have no home ownership.

Now they want to force house owners to rescue this policy by renting out if they have rooms to spare. Otherwise there will be a punishment tax.

Sooner or later everything will collapse, because politics does not dare to reform.
Then all savings will be lost and there will be a popular uprising.
As will be with reformation.

People tend to call the fire brigades when the house already burns.

I have the impression, some wages are far too high here. ridicously so. metal-workers e.g.
also, zero-interest-rate-policy is mainly set up by the US-federal-bank (I think). The Europeans ones just have to follow course...

if you think Germany is in a left-wing-dictatorship,
the US is clearly in a right-wing-dictatorship.
 :wink:

do you really think there ever were "better times"?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 27, 2019, 04:47:59 am
I have the impression, some wages are far too high here. ridicously so. metal-workers e.g.
also, zero-interest-rate-policy is mainly set up by the US-federal-bank (I think). The Europeans ones just have to follow course...
do you really think there ever were "better times"?
Well I?m a metal worker and my husband is. But our employers are not members in the emplyer?s association, so they can pay what they want if workers accept. I have not seen a rise in wages for ten years myself.
I still earn good money though compared to those which are employed recently and have to work for minimum wages.

Zero-interest-policy is set up by Draghi ( EU). Once again now.

People need legal certainty, it can not be that laws are constantly changing.
You have to be able to adjust to it for a long time, otherwise you will not invest privately.
When I started my apprenticeship and took up my job, the wages were still collectively bound, you could expect to build something up.
Today, skilled workers are based on the minimum wage for workers without training.
Today you do not get long-term employment contracts anymore. The economy has changed completely.

Yes, there was a careless time after the war, in the reconstruction.
This generation, that of my parents, they are mainly responsible for ensuring that the children are well, too. They share their wealth with them.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on January 27, 2019, 07:20:51 am
<<<Just - very uninterested. School is a lot of entertainment these days, it seems? I felt like I was expected to be an entertainer in my schooling-time, too. i got pretty sick of all this and am quite glad I got rid of that job. Instead of teaching facts, I had to teach how to behave, how to sweep the black board, how to sweep the floor. Cause hardly any of the students could do this right. Although most were almost 18 and might vote soon....
o well.>>>

This is a result of the education the kids get at home.
Many parents don?t have the patience and time nowadays to educate and they make the mistake leaving all education to the social media.
Sometimes I wonder why people still have kids when they don?t care about their personality and capability to start an independant life, but still want them to have best grades.

When I graduated from school I had the possibility to study at an university. It was my dream to study biology. But I had to be free so I applied for apprenticeship.
In 1983 I had to apply over 300 times and did not get a job. That was because the employers were afraid that apprentices who had good education would know about their rights.
There were many applicants for those jobs then, so the employers had the choice.
I had too high a degree but in the end I got a place by intervention of employment agency.

Today the employers want apprentices who have a high degree, this because the parents are not envolved with the contracts and because the demands of capability are much higher.
It?s much easier today to get high grades and leave school with a good graduation. Many of those german native pupils don?t want to take low paid jobs then, or their parents don?t want them to take such jobs, fearing discrimination among their community.
So these jobs are done by immigrant`s children mostly.

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2019, 12:19:38 pm
Quote
of course do the richt pay the max proportion of the taxes here. the poorer ones don?t pay taxes, just like your place.
middle-classe pays taxes, too, of course.
there is a saying: "gotta work till April for the gov`t, after that I work for me".
somewhere along that line...

Same here.

Quote
if you think Germany is in a left-wing-dictatorship,
the US is clearly in a right-wing-dictatorship.
 :wink:

do you really think there ever were "better times"?

I have seen dictatorships.  we are not that and neither are you.  I do think that you have more centralized government.  There are many here who want that also.  You see from our little shutdown that a president can't do whatever he wants.  The 3 parts of the governments are supposed to be equal even though they have separate jobs.  Some seem more equal than others   :cheesy:

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on January 27, 2019, 12:24:55 pm
Quote
Zero-interest-policy is set up by Draghi ( EU). Once again now.

People need legal certainty, it can not be that laws are constantly changing.
You have to be able to adjust to it for a long time, otherwise you will not invest privately.
When I started my apprenticeship and took up my job, the wages were still collectively bound, you could expect to build something up.
Today, skilled workers are based on the minimum wage for workers without training.
Today you do not get long-term employment contracts anymore. The economy has changed completely.

We were doing the 0 interest rate for a while.  It is pretty bad for those of us who save. It also encourages people to take out bigger loans and get into bigger debt.  I suppose spending was the whole point, but it is bad policy.

People do need legal certainty.   They also need regulatory certainty.  One thing that Trump has done that has been great is to cut regulations.  The cost to businesses and people in compliance was in the billions of dollars per year.  It still is high, but it is better.  Regulations impact freedoms and are the main cause of business wanting to get into bed with the government. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 06:11:53 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhgXP2lze4
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 07:41:57 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhgXP2lze4

It is very easy to see why Europeans and socialist HATE President Trump. And will do anything,  say anything, dig, make up lies, or even find that he is human and has made moral mistakes, or what ever is necessary to attempt to discredit him. They can't seem to stand the idea of the strong economy, repaied relationships with hostile rogue governments such as N Korea and on and on I could go about the better things he has accomplished. And in only two years! And with enemies fighting him every step of the way, through our own government, crooks and enemies on both sides of the isle, such as the young lady discussed, and crooks and thugs throughout the world!  Now you seem to really love attempting to discredit Americans for electing President Trump by continuously bashing him at any opportunity. Maybe it's time we stop talking about the politics of America and focus in on the politics of your country!  I am thinking there is plenty to uncover in your own country, with your corrupt political groups, and your leaders! Or is that wrong? If so please correct me if your system is perfect!  Do you know that things are so bad in one counrty in particular, that some folks are seeking
to  abandon their fatherland, in order to find a better life in neighboring countries such as Sweden!! ?  Is this President Trumps falt  also?


pixabay.com
The US president has called on European countries to pay their obligations to NATO.

Donald Trump once again called on European countries to pay their obligations to NATO. According to the US president, Europe does not like it, precisely because of its tough tone to the debtors in the Alliance. In front of journalists at the White House, Trump has praised his European politics.

"They say they do not like me in Europe. Europe should not like me if I like it, so I'm not doing my job. Because I want Europe to pay, "said the US president.

Trump recalled that Germany paid four times a lower contribution to NATO. Other European countries have also failed to meet their financial obligations, the head of state said.

"I do not care about Europe. I am not chosen by Europeans, but by American taxpayers. My relationship with European leaders is very good. I am a friend of all, and when I ask them, they even wonder how many years have gone away since they didn't pay their part", the US head of state said.

According to Trump, he can win every responsible post in Europe, but he did not do it because he don't want to.



Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Michael Bush on February 12, 2019, 09:22:13 am
AOC wants to shut down ALL air travel, use only trains, tear down or modify every building in the US in the next ten years.  Go to only renewable energy sources and shut down all use of fossil fuels in the next ten years.  Basically she would destroy the US in the next ten years...  She is either the stupidest person in congress or she is insane.  She is certainly not a rational person.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 09:56:50 am
AOC wants to shut down ALL air travel, use only trains, tear down or modify every building in the US in the next ten years.  Go to only renewable energy sources and shut down all use of fossil fuels in the next ten years.  Basically she would destroy the US in the next ten years...  She is either the stupidest person in congress or she is insane.  She is certainly not a rational person.

I know Michael, makes me wonder who would make, or use her to be the hero, or an example of a leader, to represent themselves from her district and choose her to represent themselves in Washington! Not even funny this time. Sad.... Hard to believe that Americans Citizens, taught the words of our Constitution, would elect someone of her thinking weather naturalized citizen or immigrants who have become citizens. Especially the latter, being they choose to come here for freedom, and the American way of life; a better way of life. If not, why would they come here in the first place?  How long do they think they will continue this way of life by electing people like AOC? Again SAD...  Just goes back to what was said by our founding fathers, many many years ago. Goodness......
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 11:58:01 am
AOC wants to shut down ALL air travel, use only trains, tear down or modify every building in the US in the next ten years.  Go to only renewable energy sources and shut down all use of fossil fuels in the next ten years.  Basically she would destroy the US in the next ten years...  She is either the stupidest person in congress or she is insane.  She is certainly not a rational person.

Maybe she is the voice of a young generation wanting to change the world?
New ideas create a new economy in the end. I love the visions.

Michael what are the young people going to your beecamp saying? Are they all of your own mind? No visions?

Phillip, I have no fatherland because after WW2 we had no fatherland feeling and this is a good thing.
Sure we have corruption, I never said we are perfect!
We have the same movements going for a brighter future, you might call it socialist, but people don?t want the global market acting in this way anymore.

Trump expresses his opinions on twitter and why should not all others? It?s a free country, U.S. free to speak one?s mind? That?s what politic is about.

Seems you all act like a hornet nest when a wasp enters. Makes me wonder why?

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 12, 2019, 12:09:24 pm
Quote
Maybe she is the voice of a young generation wanting to change the world?
New ideas create a new economy in the end. I love the visions.

There's nothing new about her ideas.  They have been tried and have failed...well, maybe not the train to Hawaii, but the rest of it has been tried  :grin:

Quote
Trump expresses his opinions on twitter and why should not all others? It?s a free country, U.S. free to speak one?s mind? That?s what politic is about.

Of course she can express her opinions.  And we can laugh at her!!

Quote
Seems you all act like a hornet nest when a wasp enters. Makes me wonder why?

Because we can look at history and see where her ideas lead.  She thinks, as many her age do, that Socialism works if the right people do it. Maybe she could give us an example of which failed country she'd use as a blueprint?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 12:35:09 pm

Of course she can express her opinions.  And we can laugh at her!!
she'd use as a blueprint?
Laughing at her is quiet nice compared to what is posted about her.  :wink: Many people who had visions were laughed at first, in history.
What blueprint? Her ideas are about a modern world not some past.

Maybe now is the time ripe to have social ideas?
No socialist! Social benefits and environment conservation?
After all, the young people have to live in this future not us. Who are we to lecture them?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 12, 2019, 01:16:36 pm
""Who are we to lecture them?""

You mean , ""Who are we to teach the youngsters?"
I thought that was the adults number one job. If not, then who?
Some pot smoking junkie teenager?
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Michael Bush on February 12, 2019, 01:22:25 pm
>Maybe she is the voice of a young generation wanting to change the world? New ideas create a new economy in the end. I love the visions.

She wants to tear down and rebuild or totally remodel every building in the US.  I live in a house built between 1856 and 1895.  I don't want to tear it down and refitting it for her ideas is impractal (as is tearing it down and rebuilding it).  These are not "new ideas".  They are insanity.

>Michael what are the young people going to your beecamp saying? Are they all of your own mind? No visions?

People vary in their understanding of the world and of politics.  I try not to talk too much about politics.

>Trump expresses his opinions on twitter and why should not all others? It?s a free country, U.S. free to speak one?s mind? That?s what politic is about.

Everyone is entitled to free speech.  Even Trump, but I wish he would stop using twitter...
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 12, 2019, 01:40:23 pm
...  Basically she would destroy the US in the next ten years...  .....

That IS the goal.

I don't know if she is smart enough to understand that - but her handlers do. Who was is - Carl Marx or Saul Alinsky (sp?) that said something to the effect of "no free and successful society will willingly accept socialism. The economy and the society must be destroyed, and only then can socialism rise out of the ashes" [paraphased]? 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 12, 2019, 01:54:03 pm
Quote
No socialist! Social benefits and environment conservation?

She is a socialist.  She wants free everything.  the "Green New Deal" is just a part of her plan. 

Have you read Marx?  Do you remember he was a great environmentalist?  He thought that stopping progress was a good thing.  Environmentalism is always a part of socialism.  It sounds great to the masses and gives the government more control/money.  (France)

We need to protect the environment, but we need to be smart about how we do it.  Retrofitting every building in the US with green stuff is kinda stupid.  Getting rid of cow farts and moving everyone to trains is kind of stupid.  Taxing the crap out of people so that they don't eat meat, drive cars, or do much of anything else is a recipe for disaster.  Making everything "free" ignores basic economics. 

She's enjoying the sound of her own voice.  I don't want her to stop.  I want her to keep talking.  1. we can see who goes with her 2. we can stop the plans and 3. she tends to sink her own ideas!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 12, 2019, 02:04:40 pm

There's nothing new about her ideas.  They have been tried and have failed...well, maybe not the train to Hawaii, but the rest of it has been tried  :grin:
...

Kathy - your Wit just kills me!  :grin: :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 12, 2019, 02:26:11 pm
Quote
Kathy - your Wit just kills me!

It only got me in trouble as a youngster   :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 02:36:39 pm
Just goes to show her marrow minded thinking, Why stop the train in Hawaii? Why not angle up and go clear across the Pacific, go on to Japan, back down to china, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany and have tea with our friends there, France, dip down to Spain. Sorry England you are left out. You shouldn't have created the fake Russian hoax, with your fake Michael Steele report. Then onward to New York !! Think BIG AOC  THINK BIG, shoot for the moon and who knows, HUM, your train might make it to Alcatraz !! May be Time it was was re-opened anyway?  Ah haa haa haa
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 02:37:54 pm
I think I understand now.
You fear that you will be overwhelmed by communists and you will lose everything that you have because you have worked for it, no matter if it is much or not!  It is fear!
But socialism is not communism, social market economy is not socialism.
Really interesting!

Quote:
Only after the First World War, however, did differences emerge and while in Germany in 1920 the KPD was founded, which was based on the model of Russia and aimed at communism, in contrast formed the SPD, the reform-oriented socialism as a characteristic feature for himself. Even internationally, a distinction was made between communism, here with Lenin, Stalin and Mao, and socialism, which was democratically oriented.
In contrast to communism, the basic idea of ​​socialism is that it must be considered how good provision can be made. It is explicitly intended to ensure that everyone receives a supply that matches their performance and that those who are less efficient receive compensation in the sense of solidarity. At the present time and in political world affairs, communism and its ideology are actively practiced only by relatively few countries. Many advocates of today's socialism are dissociating themselves from communism and do not want to be compliant with it. Conversely, it is similar, although many explicitly want to incorporate the socialist basic ideas into communism.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 02:44:03 pm
I really think we should start a more sustainable way of life.
Not overnight, but rethinking what we do.
 :smile:

Phil, I'm European, so Sweden is my home too.
 :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 12, 2019, 02:59:13 pm
Just goes to show her marrow minded thinking, Why stop the train in Hawaii? Why not angle up and go clear across the Pacific, go on to Japan, back down to china, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany and have tea with our friends there, France, dip down to Spain. Sorry England you are left out. You shouldn't have created the fake Russian hoax, with your fake Michael Steele report. Then onward to New York !! Think BIG AOC  THINK BIG, shoot for the moon and who knows, HUM, your train might make it to Alcatraz !! May be Time it was was re-opened anyway?  Ah haa haa haa

Ah-hah! A worldwide Bullet train! Brilliant! Your really onto something there Philip.  :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 12, 2019, 03:01:44 pm
Quote
I think I understand now.
You fear that you will be overwhelmed by communists and you will lose everything that you have because you have worked for it, no matter if it is much or not!  It is fear!
But socialism is not communism, social market economy is not socialism.
Really interesting!

No, you got that wrong. 

Quote
In contrast to communism, the basic idea of socialism is that it must be considered how good provision can be made. It is explicitly intended to ensure that everyone receives a supply that matches their performance and that those who are less efficient receive compensation in the sense of solidarity.

No communist country ever started by saying "We are going to slaughter your people and make you all poor".  No socialist country ever started by saying "we are going to take over all industry and when that doesn't work, we are going to slaughter your people and make you all poor"
On paper, communism distributes all property, industry, and profit equally between the people and is managed by the people.  In socialism, the government manages all industry for the good of the people.  In fact, the end result is exactly the same no matter the label you put on it.

If you can point out one successful socialist country I'd be interested.

 

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 12, 2019, 03:04:45 pm
Quote
I really think we should start a more sustainable way of life.
Not overnight, but rethinking what we do.

We already do.  Air is cleaner, water is cleaner, we produce enough food to easily feed the world.  That is a sustainable way of life.

If you want other forms of energy the best way to get it is through the free market.  Everyone knows that the first person who figures it out will be wildly wealthy.  The Steve Jobs of energy!  '

It will have to be something that doesn't require millions of acres for a small return.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 03:06:08 pm
If you can point out one successful socialist country I'd be interested.

I give up. I can?t believe this question.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 12, 2019, 03:07:28 pm
We already do. 
No you don?t. You go backwards.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 03:09:36 pm
Just goes to show her marrow minded thinking, Why stop the train in Hawaii? Why not angle up and go clear across the Pacific, go on to Japan, back down to china, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany and have tea with our friends there, France, dip down to Spain. Sorry England you are left out. You shouldn't have created the fake Russian hoax, with your fake Michael Steele report. Then onward to New York !! Think BIG AOC  THINK BIG, shoot for the moon and who knows, HUM, your train might make it to Alcatraz !! May be Time it was was re-opened anyway?  Ah haa haa haa

Phil, I'm European, so Sweden is my home too.

Oh, I did not mean to exclude you Sibylle, the next thime I talk to AOC, I will ask her to add Sweden to the train track. J/k Sweetie, you are free to run Germany as you wish, you can also run the rest of Europe as you wish, including England, Ciders home. But you are not fee to run the USA.  Now, there will come a day,, when the Christian's are gone that you will have your wish,  I do believe That day will come. But it is not today. As long as the Spirit of God Strives with man you can not have your world government. But I will confess that day is getting closer.  The Bible says God's Spirit will not always strive with man. I feel sorry for the whole world when that time comes. There will be tribulation as the world has never known or will ever know again.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 12, 2019, 03:12:52 pm
...
You fear that you will be overwhelmed by communists and you will lose everything that you have because you have worked for it, no matter if it is much or not!  It is fear!
But socialism is not communism, social market economy is not socialism.
...

No dearest, not even close. What all of us are trying to tell you is that the recipe for socialism is missing an ingredient - it fails to account for the drive of the human spirit. It's not fear we have darling, it's knowledge we have.

Socialism removes the major reward for hard work, and for extraordinary talent. There is a word for those that possess the willingness for hard work, and/or extraordinary talents - these are your "job creators, medical miracle inventors, new technology developers, etc". When that major reward is removed from them, they simply fit into society and do no more than is necessary - because there is no reward. And this begins the downward spiral of failure that accompanies every socialist  Utopian Society.

It's like trying to bake a cake without sugar. And we are all trying "collectively" to open your eyes to this simple fact.

All the best to you.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 03:48:14 pm
Just goes to show her marrow minded thinking, Why stop the train in Hawaii? Why not angle up and go clear across the Pacific, go on to Japan, back down to china, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany and have tea with our friends there, France, dip down to Spain. Sorry England you are left out. You shouldn't have created the fake Russian hoax, with your fake Michael Steele report. Then onward to New York !! Think BIG AOC  THINK BIG, shoot for the moon and who knows, HUM, your train might make it to Alcatraz !! May be Time it was was re-opened anyway?  Ah haa haa haa

Ah-hah! A worldwide Bullet train! Brilliant! Your really onto something there Philip.  :wink:

Thanks Alan, but I can't take all the credit. AOC was the true inspiration!! We need to ask her, how much concrete, green energy, time, etc will it take for the bridging to reach the deepest depths of the sea? This brilliant minded leader must be on to something big !! Hee hee j/k
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 12, 2019, 03:56:00 pm
She's too smart for that, Phillip. She would never waste all that concrete. She will run the rails on helium filled pontoons, but will not allow smoking.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 03:58:45 pm
She's too smart for that, Phillip. She would never waste all that concrete. She will run the rails on helium filled pontoons, but will not allow smoking.

Ah haa haa haaa! That is funny!! Cracked me up again !!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 12, 2019, 04:24:21 pm
OH, I forgot. She will also stop climate change and disallow hurricanes, to keep from rocking the pontoons.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 12, 2019, 04:24:39 pm
She's too smart for that, Phillip. She would never waste all that concrete. She will run the rails on helium filled pontoons, but will not allow smoking.

Ah haa haa haaa! That is funny!! Cracked me up again !!

Let me drive that train - I'll find out if it can smoke!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 04:32:58 pm
She's too smart for that, Phillip. She would never waste all that concrete. She will run the rails on helium filled pontoons, but will not allow smoking.

Ah haa haa haaa! That is funny!! Cracked me up again !!

Let me drive that train - I'll find out if it can smoke!

Alan I'm surprised at you! Don't you think AOC should receive that honor? And thinking about it, maybe we should observe from a distance! Especially if she try's to make it smoke!! Woo wee 😊😁😊
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 12, 2019, 04:39:48 pm
She's too smart for that, Phillip. She would never waste all that concrete. She will run the rails on helium filled pontoons, but will not allow smoking.

Ah haa haa haaa! That is funny!! Cracked me up again !!

Let me drive that train - I'll find out if it can smoke!

Alan I'm surprised at you! Don't you think AOC should receive that honor? And thinking about it, maybe we should observe from a distance! Especially if she try's to make it smoke!! Woo wee 😊😁😊

Hahaha! You raise a good point Philip. Sometimes I'm just in too much of a hurry to think properly! Le'me have that TRAIN BABY!! :cool:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 04:50:28 pm
She's too smart for that, Phillip. She would never waste all that concrete. She will run the rails on helium filled pontoons, but will not allow smoking.

Ah haa haa haaa! That is funny!! Cracked me up again !!

Let me drive that train - I'll find out if it can smoke!

Alan I'm surprised at you! Don't you think AOC should receive that honor? And thinking about it, maybe we should observe from a distance! Especially if she try's to make it smoke!! Woo wee 😊😁😊

Hahaha! You raise a good point Philip. Sometimes I'm just in too much of a hurry to think properly! Le'me have that TRAIN BABY!! :cool:

Well I will hand it to you Alan, you are game!! 😁😁
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 12, 2019, 04:52:48 pm
OH, I forgot. She will also stop climate change and disallow hurricanes, to keep from rocking the pontoons.

Iddee yep, I am thinking she is working on that now. But in the mean time she will probably have extra heavy duty shock asborbets to compensate for the rough ride of the high seas, and magnetized wheels to keep her on track!!  With her smarts, I don't think something like a little Hurricane or typhoon will stop her progress !! This girl has it all!! Very very intellectual?  I just hope she don't use one of those floating islands for a support!!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 12, 2019, 05:07:01 pm
Quote
I give up. I can?t believe this question.

I can't think of one. 

Quote
No you don?t. You go backwards.

How do we go backwards?

I wonder how much AOC gets for the "documentary" that Netflix just bought?  I assume she will share it with all around her. 

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: SiWolKe on February 13, 2019, 02:41:28 am
 :grin:
What a discussion!
Well, we don?t want to conquer you, I?m quiet sure. But we want to continue trading with you and I see our government now wants to trade the gas with you despite our fears of supporting fracking, because this is known to start earthquakes and an intervention into nature we don?t know the consequences of. But it all must not be a religion, compromise is necessary.

There is no capitalistic society working without any form of socialism added, if it is only in the opposition. Not even in the U.S.
There is no socialistic society working without any capitalistic  tendencies working either as you can see in China.

And I thing AOC reveals how very fast your U.S. capitalistic system might become a socialistic one party despotism with all the legal corruption present.
Socialistic dictartorships distribute the wealth among their own followers, the elite.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 13, 2019, 06:35:50 am
Sibylle you say "Well, we don?t want to conquer you"
I want to ask, who is we?  Do you mean the European government?  You have told me you don't have a fatherland after WWII, and you consider yourself European. Your political party? If so, tell us your political party please. Or are you referring to Germany? The place that you live?  Or other, who is WE that you are referring to?

"And I thing AOC reveals how very fast your U.S. capitalistic system might become a socialistic one party despotism with all the legal corruption present."

Yes just like in Valenzuela. Yes you are probably right, The lion is always trying to divide the sheep. And Satin is a roaring lion seeking who he may  devour. The great deceiver. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 13, 2019, 07:27:33 am
Keep in mind, Venezuela had their guns removed from the public. Our second amendment is alive and well. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 13, 2019, 07:44:44 am
Keep in mind, Venezuela had their guns removed from the public. Our second amendment is alive and well.

That's right iddee, that is one of the first things that they do, disarm the people, so the people will not have defense against them once they show their true colors.  Hum, it's looks like the leopards are starting to show their spots?  Not in hiding and sneaking in the shadows as much as they use to...  peeking into the light and letting out a roar now and then. Hum  😊😁
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 13, 2019, 11:26:47 am
Quote
There is no capitalistic society working without any form of socialism added, if it is only in the opposition. Not even in the U.S.
There is no socialistic society working without any capitalistic  tendencies working either as you can see in China.

This is a common confusion in this country and it is the reason young people here are willing to embrace socialism.  Most countries have safety nets that are paid for by the taxpayer.  They are also programs promised in socialist countries.  The difference between a country with socialist programs and a socialist country is that the 1st is paid for with a capitalist economy and the second is not. 

China is a  unique thing at the moment.  They have allowed some seemingly free market things and have left Hong Kong alone.  It is a bit deceptive.  those who have been allowed to make fortunes are those who are friendly to the government.  We commonly refer to them as oligarchs. 
One of the major ways China has made money is by offering companies what is basically slave labor.  They get a lot of money from the company, and in return, the company gets labor that is cheap and guaranteed by the government to work any hours. 
China also steals everything it can get its hands on and uses that slave labor to reproduce things that are then dumped on markets.  They do the same in industries like mining and steel production.

So to say that China is embracing free market behaviors is a little deceptive.  they have a large captive workforce. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 13, 2019, 11:33:40 am
Venezuela is especially interesting because it didn't start out as a socialist takeover.  It started with Hugo promising a lot of free stuff.  It wasn't until he couldn't pay for things that he started nationalizing companies and trying to control the economy. As he destroyed things and people become more unhappy his control expanded to keep people in line.  Wage and price control were part of it. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 13, 2019, 12:20:03 pm
"Maybe now is the time ripe to have social ideas?
No socialist! Social benefits and environment conservation?
Who are we to lecture them''

Who are you to lecture us? Friends, Sibylle is right, this nation will go down to socialism, communism, or globalism if our children are not properly educated in what our nations history has taught us. Noah Webster WROTE our dictionary, listen closely to what he had to say about our sweet children and their education. POWERFUL WORDS And I quote;
 "Every child in America should be acquainted with his own country. He should read books that furnish him with ideas that will be useful to him in life and practice. As soon as he opens his lips, he should rehearse the history of his own country."Every civil government is based upon some religion or philosophy of life. Education in a nation will propagate the religion of that nation. In America, the foundational religion was Christianity. And it was sown in the hearts of Americans through the home and private and public schools for centuries. Our liberty, growth, and prosperity was the result of a Biblical philosophy of life. Our continued freedom and success is dependent on our educating the youth of America in the principles of Christianity." Noah Webster
 As iddee said, it is our responsibility to inform our children, If we don't who will? There was a time that our children were taught these basic principles in all schools. Even our own fellow citizens of atheists believing knew the principles weather they believed the Bible or not. We were then the "UNITED" STATES OF AMERICA. I will ask, Who is the great divider, the great deceiver? The word says we wrestle not with flesh and blood but spirits and principalities.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 14, 2019, 08:09:23 pm
...
You fear that you will be overwhelmed by communists and you will lose everything that you have because you have worked for it, no matter if it is much or not!  It is fear!
But socialism is not communism, social market economy is not socialism.
...

No dearest, not even close. What all of us are trying to tell you is that the recipe for socialism is missing an ingredient - it fails to account for the drive of the human spirit. It's not fear we have darling, it's knowledge we have.

Socialism removes the major reward for hard work, and for extraordinary talent. There is a word for those that possess the willingness for hard work, and/or extraordinary talents - these are your "job creators, medical miracle inventors, new technology developers, etc". When that major reward is removed from them, they simply fit into society and do no more than is necessary - because there is no reward. And this begins the downward spiral of failure that accompanies every socialist  Utopian Society.

It's like trying to bake a cake without sugar. And we are all trying "collectively" to open your eyes to this simple fact.

All the best to you.
Hi SiWolke
The replies, well some, have degenerated into the above condescending, patronising and sexist thoughts. Add to that Ben Framed evangelical rants you may wonder why i only now lurk on coffee house! :smile:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 14, 2019, 11:25:53 pm
Hi SiWolke
The replies, well some, have degenerated into the above condescending, patronising and sexist thoughts. Add to that Ben Framed evangelical rants you may wonder why i only now lurk on coffee house! :smile:

CIDER we meet at last!!! I've read your work for a year and a half or so - well done!

You had me laughing on this one from the first moment! Here's why:

For several days now, I've gone to bed with questions here answered, only to wake and find a whole new line of questions, often with quotes, and supporting documents, but always from a new angle. It occurred to me [finally] that people must be seeking help from a 3rd party in the off hours. Well, I says to myself "what will they do when the discussions have been answered, the talking points have run out, and they don't like the answers?" (as must happen when facts outweigh wishes) ... so I thought thru "the playbook" that I've learned - and here was the answer that hit me ... "Their gonna call me a racist" [shrug]. (Anyone who knows me would laugh at that). So I realized that the discussions would be considered "lost" by those people, when that word came out - so I've been expecting it ...

... but you threw me a curve-ball and called me "Sexist" instead! Hahaha! Good one!  :cool: :cool: :cool:

Hey - your profile doesn't show a location ... where do.you keep bees?

Thanks
Alan
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 14, 2019, 11:53:38 pm
''That's right iddee, that is one of the first things that they do, disarm the people, so the people will not have defense against them once they show their true colors.  Hum, it's looks like the leopards are starting to show their spots?  Not in hiding and sneaking in the shadows as much as they use to...  peeking into the light and letting out a roar now and then. Hum''  😊😁

''The replies, well some, have degenerated into the above condescending, patronising and sexist thoughts. Add to that Ben Framed evangelical rants you may wonder why i only now lurk on coffee house!'' :smile:

His words, not mine! Notice he used the word lurk. In order to describe his actions here at the coffee house.
To Lurk a person or animal be or remain hidden so as to wait in ambush for someone or something: a ruthless killer still lurked in the darkness.

See iddee I told you :smile: ......
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on February 15, 2019, 02:00:02 am
who disarmed the german poeple so as to keep them at bay and at their wishes???
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 15, 2019, 04:41:07 am
Hi SiWolke
The replies, well some, have degenerated into the above condescending, patronising and sexist thoughts. Add to that Ben Framed evangelical rants you may wonder why i only now lurk on coffee house! :smile:

CIDER we meet at last!!! I've read your work for a year and a half or so - well done!

You had me laughing on this one from the first moment! Here's why:

For several days now, I've gone to bed with questions here answered, only to wake and find a whole new line of questions, often with quotes, and supporting documents, but always from a new angle. It occurred to me [finally] that people must be seeking help from a 3rd party in the off hours. Well, I says to myself "what will they do when the discussions have been answered, the talking points have run out, and they don't like the answers?" (as must happen when facts outweigh wishes) ... so I thought thru "the playbook" that I've learned - and here was the answer that hit me ... "Their gonna call me a racist" [shrug]. (Anyone who knows me would laugh at that). So I realized that the discussions would be considered "lost" by those people, when that word came out - so I've been expecting it ...

... but you threw me a curve-ball and called me "Sexist" instead! Hahaha! Good one!  :cool: :cool: :cool:

Hey - your profile doesn't show a location ... where do.you keep bees?

Thanks
Alan
CoolBees
If you were replying to KathyP would you refer to her as "No dearest, not even close. What all of us are trying to tell you is that the recipe for socialism is missing an ingredient - it fails to account for the drive of the human spirit. It's not fear we have darling, it's knowledge we have" in such a patronising way undoubtly metaphorically patting her on the head at the same time?

A couple of Apiaries in the Southwest.

PS Maybe I should replace "Lurk" with"Browse the Coffee House" so as not to give the wrong impression :smile:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 15, 2019, 08:47:25 am
"PS Maybe I should replace "Lurk" with"Browse the Coffee House" so as not to give the wrong impression ":smile:

Doesn't matter to me what you change. You are transparent to me, Mr Deceiver .
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 15, 2019, 09:02:21 am
"PS Maybe I should replace "Lurk" with"Browse the Coffee House" so as not to give the wrong impression ":smile:

Doesn't matter to me what you change. You are transparent to me, Mr Deceiver .

Oh that was like a dagger to the heart......I don't think! :smile:....."Mr Deceiver" now there's a name to play with! :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 15, 2019, 09:20:26 am
"PS Maybe I should replace "Lurk" with"Browse the Coffee House" so as not to give the wrong impression ":smile:

Doesn't matter to me what you change. You are transparent to me, Mr Deceiver .

Oh that was like a dagger to the heart......I don't think! :smile:....."Mr Deceiver" now there's a name to play with! :cheesy:

 :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on February 15, 2019, 11:22:29 am
I have been called worse than "dearest" so if someone called me that I'd consider it a step up...actually, an entire escalator up!!   :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on February 15, 2019, 01:41:26 pm
CoolBees
If you were replying to KathyP would you refer to her as "No dearest, not even close. What all of us are trying to tell you is that the recipe for socialism is missing an ingredient - it fails to account for the drive of the human spirit. It's not fear we have darling, it's knowledge we have" in such a patronising way undoubtly metaphorically patting her on the head at the same time?

A couple of Apiaries in the Southwest.

PS Maybe I should replace "Lurk" with"Browse the Coffee House" so as not to give the wrong impression :smile:

[Chuckles] ...

No worries - I "lurked" here for a year or more before deciding to join, so as to ask some questions, and get some help with me bees. As a side note: of all the bee forums I found and read - this one is by far the best - best people, most knowledge shared, easiest to navigate, etc.

Cider - I've seen you throw out a lot of [less that professional] comments here, but I have an honest question for you .... how do you believe things should be in this world? Is that open for discussion? Will you provide your opinions? In your view, what should the system of government look like, if you "had your way" so to speak?

Thanks
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: sawdstmakr on February 15, 2019, 01:46:38 pm
That is a good question Coolbees.
Jim
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 15, 2019, 06:26:17 pm
OK, Cider, and Ben Framed, nobody here can be called names other than Iddee. I have been called so many I don't think anyone can find a new one, but all other members are off limits.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 15, 2019, 06:31:10 pm
OK, Cider, and Ben Framed, nobody here can be called names other than Iddee. I have been called so many I don't think anyone can find a new one, but all other members are off limits.

Ha ha 😁  I wonder where your buddy Cider has went off to, Cool 😎 ask him a good question. Maybe in the haystack fast asleep 😴.

PS Cider is a pretty good sport, I bet he liked it! 😁
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 15, 2019, 07:43:01 pm
I think Cider is from England. Heck, they ain't even smart enough to know what side to road to drive on.  :wink:  :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 15, 2019, 08:00:52 pm
OK, Cider, and Ben Framed, nobody here can be called names other than Iddee. I have been called so many I don't think anyone can find a new one, but all other members are off limits.
? :smile: and even more???  I suppose Ben Framed does seem to get a bit unhinged at times, but its like water off a ducks back.....and presumably for him also. Otherwise he would not frequent this place, but then again he may just want to convert us all? I'm afraid you know as far as religion is concerned I'm a lost cause! :wink:
With grateful Regards
cider. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 15, 2019, 08:10:34 pm
OK, Cider, and Ben Framed, nobody here can be called names other than Iddee. I have been called so many I don't think anyone can find a new one, but all other members are off limits.
? :smile: and even more???  I suppose Ben Framed does seem to get a bit unhinged at times, but its like water off a ducks back.....and presumably for him also. Otherwise he would not frequent this place, but then again he may just want to convert us all? I'm afraid you know as far as religion is concerned I'm a lost cause! :wink:
With grateful Regards
cider.

Thanks for the kind words Cider. I do enjoy coming here reading the post, the debates, between you, iddee, and Ace, others as well.  Sometimes I get so tickled that I truly laugh out loud!  As far as you and your salvation, I can't convert you, that comes from the conviction and power of the Spirit of God, if he calls you, you will know it in your heart.  But  let me add Cider, I will never give up on you, I want to see you walking the streets of gold for all eternity!
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 16, 2019, 03:05:19 am
OK, Cider, and Ben Framed, nobody here can be called names other than Iddee. I have been called so many I don't think anyone can find a new one, but all other members are off limits.
Given half a chance, I think I could drag up one or two! that are very appropriate :rolleyes: :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 16, 2019, 01:47:58 pm
OK, Cider, and Ben Framed, nobody here can be called names other than Iddee. I have been called so many I don't think anyone can find a new one, but all other members are off limits.
? :smile: and even more???  I suppose Ben Framed does seem to get a bit unhinged at times, but its like water off a ducks back.....and presumably for him also. Otherwise he would not frequent this place, but then again he may just want to convert us all? I'm afraid you know as far as religion is concerned I'm a lost cause! :wink:
With grateful Regards
cider.

Thanks for the kind words Cider. I do enjoy coming here reading the post, the debates, between you, iddee, and Ace, others as well.  Sometimes I get so tickled that I truly laugh out loud!  As far as you and your salvation, I can't convert you, that comes from the conviction and power of the Spirit of God, if he calls you, you will know it in your heart.  But  let me add Cider, I will never give up on you, I want to see you walking the streets of gold for all eternity!
So.....that's what it's all about, it's the money, d'oh! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 16, 2019, 06:11:50 pm
"So.....that's what it's all about, it's the money, d'oh! :rolleyes: "

Haa haa 😁

"Given half a chance, I think I could drag up one or two! that are very appropriate :rolleyes:"

Hum Cider, so far looks as if iddee hasn't paid much attention to your bait! But I advise you not to lay you pole down, you know iddee, sometimes he strikes hard!! He is capiable of breaking your line or even taking your whole fishing pole!!  😊😁. Kind of like an ole large mouth bass!!   PS iddee, I'm not trying to call you a new name, I am leaving that for Cider! Let me assure you. I don't want any war with words with you !!
Ah haa haa haa 😁
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 16, 2019, 06:45:40 pm
"So.....that's what it's all about, it's the money, d'oh! :rolleyes: "

Haa haa 😁

"Given half a chance, I think I could drag up one or two! that are very appropriate :rolleyes:"

Hum Cider, so far looks as if iddee hasn't paid much attention to your bait! But I advise you not to lay you pole down, you know iddee, sometimes he strikes hard!! He is capiable of breaking your line or even taking your whole fishing pole!!  😊😁. Kind of like an ole large mouth bass!!   PS iddee, I'm not trying to call you a new name, I am leaving that for Cider! Let me assure you. I don't want any war with words with you !!
Ah haa haa haa 😁

What's with the "Ah haa haa haa" it's getting to look a bit childish don't you think? Wouldn't want you to start looking like iddee :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 16, 2019, 06:54:06 pm
" What's with the "Ah haa haa haa" it's getting to look a bit childish don't you think? Wouldn't want you to start looking like iddee :cheesy:"

Lighten up you old crab! Take a deep breath, relax,  and laugh with us! Might do you some good!! Ok I'm restraining feom the Ah haa haa haa this time, just for you ! So I will insert the picture as to be proper.  :grin:
Whoops there I go again, Dang if I didn't do it again! The crab part I mean! Well iddee, I beg your pardon, but look at his picture on his description!! He put the crab there, not me!!  :oops:  ah haaa haaaa haaaa
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 16, 2019, 07:06:12 pm
You goofed again, Ben. That's a scorpion, not a crab.   :shocked:
Crabs, "at least the salt water kind", are desirable. Scorpions aren't. That's why he chose the scorpion.
He's more compatible with the scorpion and the other kind of crab.   :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 16, 2019, 07:22:44 pm
You goofed again, Ben. That's a scorpion, not a crab.   :shocked:
Crabs, "at least the salt water kind", are desirable. Scorpions aren't. That's why he chose the scorpion.
He's more compatible with the scorpion and the other kind of crab.   :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:

 :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 16, 2019, 07:27:04 pm
Well hold on to your seat iddee, no telling what we are in for now!! Cider is a capiable sparring opponent!! 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 16, 2019, 07:43:03 pm
Well, I just wish he would come across the sea on one of his trips. I would love to take him fishing and spend the day filling the area with bovine feces.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 16, 2019, 07:53:19 pm
Well, I just wish he would come across the sea on one of his trips. I would love to take him fishing and spend the day filling the area with bovine feces.

Very proper iddee, very proper way of putting it indeed!  I would love to be in on that, a good day of fishing, along with a good day of shooting the -B-U-L-L- .

PS Cider, shooting the bull is an American way of saying Shooting the feces, cutting up, laughing, having a good time etc.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 17, 2019, 05:24:14 am
Well, I just wish he would come across the sea on one of his trips. I would love to take him fishing and spend the day filling the area with bovine feces.
Next contemplated trip is to drive down the US East Coast in the fall, another SKI jaunt, (at least they encourage us! :smile: albeit with fixed smiles :cheesy: will have to be after the RV tour of Ireland though, the OH wants to look up some relations.

Not more BS there's enough from you two on here as it is :smile:

Ben as iddee said it's a Scorpion not a dose of crustaceans :rolleyes: :smile:

It's my birth sign.(http://) 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 17, 2019, 05:34:51 am
Tour of Ireland sounds great!

" Ben as iddee said it's a Scorpion not a dose of crustaceans :rolleyes: :smile:

It's my birth sign."

Though I didn't know it was your birth sign, I was kidding you about the crab. The door was open so I went through. I figured you would like that.   :happy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on February 17, 2019, 06:28:57 am
Speaking of birth signs, I'm a cancer. I grow on you.  :angry:  :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 17, 2019, 06:45:08 am
Speaking of birth signs, I'm a cancer. I grow on you.  :angry:  :cheesy:
You mean like G&T grows on Mexicans? :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on February 17, 2019, 02:04:52 pm
Speaking of birth signs, I'm a cancer. I grow on you.  :angry:  :cheesy:
You mean like G&T grows on Mexicans? :cheesy:

Cider, I have missed it, Went over my head, What is G&T Your turn to laugh out loud  :grin:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: cidersabuzzin on February 17, 2019, 08:24:50 pm
Speaking of birth signs, I'm a cancer. I grow on you.  :angry:  :cheesy:
You mean like G&T grows on Mexicans? :cheesy:

Cider, I have missed it, Went over my head, What is G&T Your turn to laugh out loud  :grin:
Gin and Tonic :cheesy:.....not a reason to laugh out loud! :smile: A Simile, make of it what you will. :smile:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: salvo on February 25, 2019, 09:28:00 pm
Hi Folks,

Where do I start?

Sandy O'Crazio Cortex!

"The seventy percent of New Yorkers who supported Amazon and now vent their anger also bear responsibility and must learn that the silent majority should not be silent because they can lose to the vocal minority and self-interested politicians. Click the link:
https://archive.fo/NV1fa#selection-1331.0-1331.243

We can't just sit back and wait.

She predicted that the planet would face ?disaster if we don?t turn this ship around,? claimed there was a ?scientific consensus? that ?the lives of children are going to be very difficult,? and said that young people were wondering, as a result, ?Is it OK to still have children?? Plese click the link:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/02/24/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-rants-about-socialism-and-the-end-of-the-world-again/

"And I'm like, 'You try. You do it. Cuz you're not. Cuz you're not. So, until you do it, I'm the boss.' How about that?
Please click the link:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/43922/aoc-declares-herself-boss-thanks-climate-change-ben-shapiro

She's the crazy ex girl friend!

How far do we let these maroons go? The silent majority may become silenced forever.

Sal


Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 11, 2019, 11:18:37 am
It's time to revive this one .... enjoy!

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 11, 2019, 11:20:35 am
Keep going ...
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on June 11, 2019, 12:34:42 pm
 :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 11, 2019, 01:13:05 pm
 :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on June 11, 2019, 03:58:06 pm
 :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 11, 2019, 05:57:37 pm
From hair stylist to Congress, only in USA.  Except wait,,, Venezuela, Murado, the President,,, do you know his experience, his credentials???

He was a bus driver, yes a bus driver that got elected to the head of the teamsters union.  From being president of the truckers, bus drivers;  then on to being president of a country or Dictatorship.

Venezuela and New York have one thing in common. 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 11, 2019, 06:15:33 pm
:cheesy:

:cheesy:


:cheesy:




 :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 11, 2019, 07:41:06 pm
From hair stylist to Congress, only in USA.  Except wait,,, Venezuela, Murado, the President,,, do you know his experience, his credentials???

He was a bus driver, yes a bus driver that got elected to the head of the teamsters union.  From being president of the truckers, bus drivers;  then on to being president of a country or Dictatorship.

Venezuela and New York have one thing in common.

Good point(s) Van. Not sure anyone could get much lower ... maybe a community organizer? ...  :wink: :cool: :cheesy: :cheesy:  :cheesy: ... sorry, couldn't resist!  :cheesy:

On a serious note: it's scary that so "low qualified" individuals can get elected to such high office so fast. ... imho
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on June 12, 2019, 12:04:53 pm
IDK.  I don't have a problem with people having little political experience and becoming the leader of a country.  The only real practice for the job in the US is state governor and our results with those have been mixed.  The ability to lead is a must and it is not something most people can learn.  They can do it or they can't.

 Truman is a good example.

He had military experience and he was recognized as a good leader with innate leadership ability.  He was a leader in the Senate even as a junior.  Even so, most people didn't know who he was and those who did didn't think too much of his abilities.
  He was chosen as VP as a throwaway, not for his skills.  He got a heaping pile of CR dumped in his lap when FDR died and he stepped up to the plate. 

I'd rather have a Truman than a Carter any day even though on paper Carter had the better education and executive experience.

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 12, 2019, 12:47:38 pm
Kathy - you are correct. I guess I meant the lack of leadership experience, or the lack of any resum? at all for some of these (uh-hem) "individuals" - is what bugs me. I should have worded it better. Anyways - its all good. Cheers!  :grin:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 13, 2019, 01:35:07 am
Kathy - you are correct. I guess I meant the lack of leadership experience, or the lack of any resum? at all for some of these (uh-hem) "individuals" - is what bugs me. I should have worded it better. Anyways - its all good. Cheers!  :grin:

I understood what you meant Alan, but again, we are blessed to have Kathy here. Her answer would easily help guide a person who might not have understood, back on the right track.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on June 13, 2019, 11:04:43 am
Quote
but again, we are blessed to have Kathy here.

My father once said I'd argue with a fence post.  Not a blessing.  Often a personal fault   :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 13, 2019, 12:53:49 pm
 :grin: :rolleyes: :grin: I have a daughter like that - you give me hope for her Kathy.  :angry: :grin: :cool:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 13, 2019, 02:17:49 pm
My son Wesley is like that.  My ex son in law used to say to him The sky is blue and he would have to say it was gray.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: incognito on June 13, 2019, 03:13:36 pm
I think most parent / child relationships are like that to some degree or another.

From my experience it starts at around age 12, once they have learned everything.      :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 13, 2019, 09:49:54 pm
Kathy:IDK.  I don't have a problem with people having little political experience and becoming the leader of a country.  The only real practice for the job in the US is state governor and our results with those have been mixed.  The ability to lead is a must and it is not something most people can learn.  They can do it or they can't.


This is not about education, it?s about overconfidence.  I know of a confidant man that was a carpenter that changed the world.

Kathy, did you not study Mao, starved 40 million people, greatest murder of all times surpassing Stalin and Hitler.  Mao thought he had all the answers.  Talk about overconfidence!!!  Fast forward to Venezuela and there is an overconfident bus driver running the country in which he created 1,000,000, one million percent inflation.  Greater than the Weiner (sp)Republic.  Muardo does not understand simple math we learned in junior high.  A bus driver to President, well that is OK if you have a person that will listen to advice of experienced.  Murado would not listen to the bankers, nor to the Economist either and folks are starving due to his overconfidence.

Abe Lincoln was not a scholar, rather a man who understood his weak points and sought advice to learn himself to make the best decisions.  Maurado is an overconfident ignorant bus driver which is a lot different from a smart bus driver.
Van
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 14, 2019, 08:38:45 am
Competency is the key.  Unfortunately incompetency exist in every profession. This may be the case in politics, business, charities, medicine, or any other organization or profession where leadership may  be elected or promoted.  A competent individual can be overlooked by promoting or electing an incompetent person, by incompetent decision makers, regardless of profession. Either a person is competent or is not.  It takes wisdom to know the difference between competency and incompetency. 

Quote:
You can send any fool to college and have him educated. When he gets home you will still have nothing but an educated fool.   
Versey Ledbetter and Jerry Clower.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on June 14, 2019, 11:00:25 am
Quote
I have a daughter like that - you give me hope for her Kathy.

Teach her how to debate.  that's what my father did with us.  If we wanted to argue something we'd better have the facts to back up our argument or it was over.   :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 14, 2019, 10:39:31 pm
To me, debate is non emotional discussion, never violent.  Argument is emotional discussion and can lead to violence.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 14, 2019, 10:55:14 pm
To me, debate is non emotional discussion, never violent.  Argument is emotional discussion and can lead to violence.

Mr Van, this is debatable 😊😁 


New Oxford American Dictionary
Debate
1A formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward and which usually ends with a vote.
?last night's debate on the Education Bill?
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1An argument about a particular subject, especially one in which many people are involved.
?the national debate on abortion?
mass noun ?there has been much debate about prices?

Webster?s 1828
DEBATE, noun
1. Contention in words or arguments; discussion for elucidating truth; strife in argument or reasoning, between persons of different opinions, each endeavoring to prove his own opinion right, and that of his opposer wrong; dispute; controversy; as the debates in parliament or in congress.

2. Strife; contention.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 15, 2019, 06:12:54 pm
Agreed Mr. Ben, that is why I started with TO ME.  Just my opinion of debate vrs argument.

BTW: I agree with HOPS, page 1.  I don?t know the man, but I agree with what he post.  The fella just uses good ol common sense, an uprightly sounding person with authentic values...like Mr. Ben and others I might add.

HOPS for President.
Van
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 15, 2019, 06:54:59 pm
Agreed Mr. Ben, that is why I started with TO ME.  Just my opinion of debate vrs argument.

BTW: I agree with HOPS, page 1.  I don?t know the man, but I agree with what he post.  The fella just uses good ol common sense, an uprightly sounding person with authentic values...like Mr. Ben and others I might add.

HOPS for President.
Van

Thanks for the kind words Mr Van. I knew what you meant and your angle, i appreciate you and your kind gentlemanly manner Sir.    I figured you would like the ironic humor which was intended by my post, (Debate and debatable), going hand in hand. Hops would know how to drain the swamp...  Kathy also, in fact we have several here with that good ole common sense.  😁😁
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on June 15, 2019, 07:48:55 pm
Lot of good folks here, and one old grouch from NC.   :tongue:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 15, 2019, 07:54:25 pm
Lot of good folks here, and one old grouch from NC.   :tongue:

I would not trade that ole WISE grouch from NC for a gold monkey! .   :tongue:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: van from Arkansas on June 15, 2019, 10:34:04 pm
Lot of good folks here, and one old grouch from NC.   :tongue:

One old grouch?  I know of an old fert in Arkansas, that makes two of us: one grouch and one old fert.  To bad we are not neighbors.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 15, 2019, 11:15:41 pm
Lot of good folks here, and one old grouch from NC.   :tongue:

I would not trade that ole WISE grouch from N C  for a  gold monkey!!! .   :tongue:

One old grouch?  I know of an old fert in Arkansas, that makes two of us: one grouch and one old fert.  To bad we are not neighbors.


That goes for you too Mr Van. 😁
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on June 18, 2019, 04:30:19 pm
anyone can have an argument about anything.  Debate requires that you be able to back your position.  Backing your position require study on the subject.  In fact, it requires that you study both sides in order to make a convincing argument.

Back in the pre-internet days, my father would drop us at the library and tell us to study our subject before we continued our argument.  If we couldn't back what we were saying, we couldn't continue.   :wink:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 18, 2019, 07:21:04 pm
anyone can have an argument about anything.  Debate requires that you be able to back your position.  Backing your position require study on the subject.  In fact, it requires that you study both sides in order to make a convincing argument.

Back in the pre-internet days, my father would drop us at the library and tell us to study our subject before we continued our argument.  If we couldn't back what we were saying, we couldn't continue.   :wink:

Your dad was a wise and caring man to go to this distance in order to teach you kids how to think for yourselves with an open mind seeking the facts of the matter. Very commendable.  Thank you for sharing this Kathy.
Phillip

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: kathyp on June 18, 2019, 07:38:23 pm
Quote
Your dad was a wise and caring man to go to this distance in order to teach you kids how to think for yourselves with an open mind seeking the facts of the matter. Very commendable.  Thank you for sharing this Kathy.

Or he got tired of listening to us and the library was a good place to dump us.  He also got us all a set of boxing gloves!   :grin:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: iddee on June 18, 2019, 08:11:17 pm
We never had boxing gloves, but there were rifles and shotguns in every corner, so the arguments never escalated very far.
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 18, 2019, 10:19:19 pm
We never had boxing gloves, but there were rifles and shotguns in every corner, so the arguments never escalated very far.
Quote
Your dad was a wise and caring man to go to this distance in order to teach you kids how to think for yourselves with an open mind seeking the facts of the matter. Very commendable.  Thank you for sharing this Kathy.

Or he got tired of listening to us and the library was a good place to dump us.  He also got us all a set of boxing gloves!   :grin:
We never had boxing gloves, but there were rifles and shotguns in every corner, so the arguments never escalated very far.

 :wink:  it worked .   :grin:

Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 26, 2019, 01:26:24 am
And she keeps on giving ... AOC gets her head stuck in a bucket.

https://babylonbee.com/news/ocasio-cortez-gets-her-head-stuck-in-a-bucket-nations-journalists-quickly-explain-why-it-was-a-really-smart-thing-to-do
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: sawdstmakr on June 26, 2019, 02:06:30 am
 :cheesy:
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: Ben Framed on June 26, 2019, 02:14:33 am
And she keeps on giving ... AOC gets her head stuck in a bucket.

https://babylonbee.com/news/ocasio-cortez-gets-her-head-stuck-in-a-bucket-nations-journalists-quickly-explain-why-it-was-a-really-smart-thing-to-do

Did you notice that this was reported by MSNBC.  As the old saying goes, ''Could the rats be leaving the sinking ship?'' Or perhaps this simply got past the editor?   :wink:   Hum 
Title: Re: A gift that keeps on giving
Post by: CoolBees on June 26, 2019, 02:54:15 pm
... and giving ...

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]