Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE 2ND AMENDMENT => Topic started by: Dallasbeek on November 11, 2017, 12:46:45 pm

Title: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 11, 2017, 12:46:45 pm
Dallas Morning News page 1 story today says the survivors of the church shooting at Sutherland Springs Baptist Church are arming up and even one of the pastors is getting a concealed carry permit so they will no longer be vulnerable to the threat of a violent lunatic like they were a week ago.  They say a good man with a gun stopped a bad man with a gun and don't believe more stringent gun laws would prevent similar violence in the future.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: sawdstmakr on November 11, 2017, 02:10:16 pm
About a year ago I heard a pastor in Jacksonxille was asking several of his members to carry and situated them in stragic locations in the church to pprotect the congregation.
Jim
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: herbhome on November 11, 2017, 02:22:46 pm
On the one hand it is very sad that it has come to this but on the other hand I'd feel safer in that church.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 11, 2017, 05:05:55 pm
Yup.  society is broken.  All we can do is be prepared.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Jim 134 on November 12, 2017, 01:22:27 am
I know I go to church at ...There are several people with concealed weapons in the congregation ... 

   
            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 07:25:15 am
Come on ace. I want your opinion on this one!
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 12, 2017, 09:46:49 am
Come on ace. I want your opinion on this one!
No you don't.  There aren't enough good guys to protect me from a mentally deranged bad guy for every place I want to go.  There are too many armed guards in my life as it is.  More guns will not solve a problem of guns getting in the wrong hands.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: iddee on November 12, 2017, 09:55:48 am
One thing you have to admit, Ace. he good guy with a gun stopped him from killing more, that day or ever.

 If a couple or more had been carrying in the church, the number shot would likely be 5 or 6, rather than 40 plus.

One gun in the wrong hand and 3 in the right hands is many times better than 2 in the wrong hands and none in the right hand.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 11:03:26 am
Ace you had better go hide in the woods somewhere then. Cause you ain?t gonna get the guns outa the bad guys hands.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 01:30:38 pm
Here?s a feel good story for ya Ace.
https://youtu.be/clW2jtv6qFc
Title: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 01:34:16 pm
Here?s a spoof one. But thought I might rub it in a little.
https://youtu.be/EDWo6m5hbG4
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 02:10:01 pm
One more good  one. https://youtu.be/XCZ2V4St5t0
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 02:25:46 pm
Ok. One more than I?m done. This one made my jaw drop.

https://youtu.be/2ZGSQXmJPaQ
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 12, 2017, 04:48:47 pm
One thing you have to admit, Ace. he good guy with a gun stopped him from killing more, that day or ever.

Technically no.  A bad guy killed another bad guy.
What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 04:58:59 pm
One thing you have to admit, Ace. he good guy with a gun stopped him from killing more, that day or ever.

Technically no.  A bad guy killed another bad guy.
What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.
And a fact that you will never admit, is you won?t stop a bad guy from getting a gun! That?s as clear as the nose on your face.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 12, 2017, 05:01:59 pm
Cause you ain?t gonna get the guns outa the bad guys hands.

It makes it tougher to do when the good guy turns bad and gets cheered on.  As these scenarios continue the good guys will lose more of their freedoms not less.  The civilized world has changed away from the wild, wild west.  Things are not decided by gun rule on the spot anymore unless you are a drug lord or in a gang.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 12, 2017, 05:04:32 pm
And a fact that you will never admit, is you won?t stop a bad guy from getting a gun!

Why would I admit something that isn't true?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: iddee on November 12, 2017, 05:19:51 pm
""What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.""

Are you dreaming or just kidding??  If the laws in place were followed we wouldn't need a police force at all. As long as there are humans living, there will be laws broken and a need for people to respond to it.  A force equal to or superior to the lawbreaker's will always be needed, whether a gun or a super lazer, or just a human's muscle.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 06:03:05 pm
One thing you have to admit, Ace. he good guy with a gun stopped him from killing more, that day or ever.

Technically no.  A bad guy killed another bad guy.
What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.
So the only ?good guy? is the one who sits there like a baby?  Would have used another word, but there?s ladies on this forum.
The only ?good guy? is one who does nothing to defend the life of another?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 12, 2017, 07:07:11 pm
One thing you have to admit, Ace. he good guy with a gun stopped him from killing more, that day or ever.

Technically no.  A bad guy killed another bad guy.
What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.

Where is the evidence that Stephen Willeford was a bad guy?  He did everything right, down to having his guns in a safe that he went to when his daughter alerted him to the shooting.  Maybe because he's a plumber?  Or is it because he's a former NRA shooting instrctor?  What gives Ace the right to decide who's a bad guy and who's a (dead, probably) good guy?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 08:04:14 pm
It?s the liberal mindset. They are correct and you must agree.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 12, 2017, 08:10:11 pm
Dallas, for a second he was a good guy then he took the law into his own hands and ran down the perpetrator to kill him.  He is guilty of murder or manslaughter at the least.
Edit:
Just on the news tonight ... Over 120,000 applications stopped for a gun permit.  Maybe next year 200,000 or maybe even a 1/2 million because of this incident.  The more you fight the right thing to do the more you will loose your freedoms for the truly good guy.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 12, 2017, 08:56:26 pm
Your nuts.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 12, 2017, 10:28:33 pm
Dallas, for a second he was a good guy then he took the law into his own hands and ran down the perpetrator to kill him.  He is guilty of murder or manslaughter at the least.
Edit:
Just on the news tonight ... Over 120,000 applications stopped for a gun permit.  Maybe next year 200,000 or maybe even a 1/2 million because of this incident.  The more you fight the right thing to do the more you will loose your freedoms for the truly good guy.

I have seen nothing to undicate he wanted to KILL the perp.  He was determined to stop the guy from killing anyone else.  Then the guy spun out and made a phone call to his father and killed himself.  Is that bad?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 12, 2017, 11:09:20 pm
Quote
Dallas, for a second he was a good guy then he took the law into his own hands and ran down the perpetrator to kill him.  He is guilty of murder or manslaughter at the least.

Neither, in fact.  It was a justifiable shooting.  If he'd killed him, it would have been justifiable homicide.  It is not always a bad thing, or an illegal thing, to take the law into your own hands.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 12, 2017, 11:14:04 pm
Quote
Would have used another word, but there?s ladies on this forum.

Where??   :shocked:

Quote
""What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.""

Ace, you are correct that laws were not followed.  We do not know if that would have stopped this guy.  What we do know is that shooting him earlier would have saved lives and shooting him when the guy did, ended it.  That's really all we know because this idiot could have either found illegal guns or another way to kill people.  Blocking the doors and setting the place on fire would have worked too.   
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 10:06:43 am
I have seen nothing to undicate he wanted to KILL the perp. 

Which video did you watch.  The killing had stopped.  The perp was out of sight and they had to travel at speeds of 90 mph in a pick up with no warning lights or siren.  That along could have resulted in more innocent people getting hurt.  There was no self defense here.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 13, 2017, 10:11:06 am
Let?s play out a hypothetical Ace. Your in a bank when two armed robbers rush in and start shooting people one by one. You?re turn is coming up fast. The guy next to you has his concealed weapon drawn. And you whisper to him forcefully, don?t even think about it! That would be against the law! 

You?re one messed up dude.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 10:12:51 am
We do not know if that would have stopped this guy.

I know that it would have stop him from killing those people with that gun and any other scenario is guess work.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 13, 2017, 10:38:13 am
We do not know if that would have stopped this guy.

I know that it would have stop him from killing those people with that gun and any other scenario is guess work.

So which law did he follow that day? And you think oh there was a law saying he couldn?t use an AR to mow down people, that he wouldn?t have.
Your a special kind of stupid.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 13, 2017, 10:38:39 am
We do not know if that would have stopped this guy.

I know that it would have stop him from killing those people with that gun and any other scenario is guess work.

So which law did he follow that day? And you think if there was a law saying he couldn?t use an AR to mow down people, that he wouldn?t have.
Your a special kind of stupid.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Hops Brewster on November 13, 2017, 11:11:01 am
One thing you have to admit, Ace. he good guy with a gun stopped him from killing more, that day or ever.

Technically no.  A bad guy killed another bad guy.
What would have made a difference is if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed and that is a fact that you will never admit.
technically, a Good guy stopped the bad guy.  Protecting the innocent is the epitome of goodness.  Only a sheep would believe that defence of self and others is a bad thing.  Standing by for the slaughter is pure foolishness and lends aid to the evil.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Hops Brewster on November 13, 2017, 11:13:13 am
Come on ace. I want your opinion on this one!
No you don't.  There aren't enough good guys to protect me from a mentally deranged bad guy for every place I want to go.  There are too many armed guards in my life as it is.  More guns will not solve a problem of guns getting in the wrong hands.
You  defined the primary reason to carry your own.  A responsible citizen is responsible for his own safety.  A sheep relies upon others and worries.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Hops Brewster on November 13, 2017, 11:22:35 am
Cause you ain?t gonna get the guns outa the bad guys hands.

It makes it tougher to do when the good guy turns bad and gets cheered on.  As these scenarios continue the good guys will lose more of their freedoms not less.  The civilized world has changed away from the wild, wild west.  Things are not decided by gun rule on the spot anymore unless you are a drug lord or in a gang.
The wild wild west was not nearly as wild as the dime novels and movies made it.   The murder rate is much higher in your 'civilised' NY in this day and age than it was 120 years ago in Arizona.  Virtually every location with stringent gun laws has a much higher violent crime rate than more libertarian locales.

Throughout the debates in this forum you have been given official facts and government statistics that prove these statements to be true, yet you ignore fact and desperately cling to the Demorat party line that strict government control equals safety. 

A good guy defending the defenseless is not a good guy turning bad, it is a good guy being good.   
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Michael Bush on November 13, 2017, 11:34:29 am
>if the gun law that was in place was followed NO ONE would have been killed

If the drug laws that are in place were followed no one would die from drugs...
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 13, 2017, 12:47:56 pm
Quote
The perp was out of sight and they had to travel at speeds of 90 mph in a pick up with no warning lights or siren.  That along could have resulted in more innocent people getting hurt.  There was no self defense here.

When was he shot twice by the good guy?  He was not shot after he ran off the road except by his own hand.  Did they shoot him when he was out of sight?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 12:49:20 pm
If the drug laws that are in place were followed no one would die from drugs...

Completely false Mike many people die taking legal drugs.  But this has no bearing on what I said.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Psparr on November 13, 2017, 12:55:06 pm
The point is you can?t make people follow laws. You figure that one out and you?d be richer than Bill Gates.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 01:01:36 pm

When was he shot twice by the good guy? 
I am not sure if it is in the vedio linked or a news reel I saw (I think it was a news reel interview) He stated while they were chasing the perp down he shot at him and claimed he hit him twice before the perp ever went of the road.  He actively tried to kill him traveling at a high rate of speed.  I don't think that is how law enforcement stops a perp.  There is no way this guy was going to "get away."  No mass murderer shooting up the population has got away yet.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: iddee on November 13, 2017, 01:15:42 pm
""Completely false Mike many people die taking legal drugs.  But this has no bearing on what I said.""

Wrong again, Ace. The law says take the legal drugs only when prescribed and then only according to label and doctor's instructions.
If those laws were followed, few if any deaths would happen.

You are also wrong about when he shoot the bad guy.

""Stephen Willeford, 55, confronted gunman Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, when he was leaving First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, wounding him, before he and Johnnie Langendorff, 27, chased him in a car after he fled.""
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: sawdstmakr on November 13, 2017, 01:37:43 pm
Brian,
When you witness a mass murder like this and the perpetrator is leaving with his weapons and ammunition and you are armed do, you really think you should let him leave? Do you really think he is just going to go home to watch TV? He knows his life is over. You know he is going to find more targets. Would you still say that if your family was among his next set of targets?
Jim
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Michael Bush on November 13, 2017, 02:05:48 pm
>Completely false Mike many people die taking legal drugs.  But this has no bearing on what I said.

It has every bearing.  If you can't keep something away from people that is illegal and that something is needed in constant supply (drugs), how will you control something that a criminal only needs once (a gun)?

Your idea that a gun seldom helps defend anyone is simply not true.  I have had to pull a gun to defend myself four times so far in my life.  I've never had to fire it.  I've always called the police.  They have never filed a report that I know of.  How many times does this happen every day?  I would guess thousands.  How many times does it happen in states where people don't dare call the police?  Gathering statistics on how many crimes are prevented directly every year is already impossible.  Gathering statistics on how much of a deterrent it is that people MIGHT have a gun is also impossible, but I guarantee everywhere I've lived that knowledge that the homeowner is LIKELY to be armed has an affect on peoples thinking.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 02:05:50 pm
The law says take the legal drugs only when prescribed and then only according to label and doctor's instructions.
If those laws were followed, few if any deaths would happen.
You don't know much about prescription drugs and you haven't ever read the side effects
Quote
You are also wrong about when he shoot the bad guy.

""Stephen Willeford, 55, confronted gunman Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, when he was leaving First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, wounding him, before he and Johnnie Langendorff, 27, chased him in a car after he fled.""
I may be wrong about Stephen Willeford because I cannot find the interview where he said he shot him twice in pursuit.  It could be fake news where one scene was shown out of sequence.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 13, 2017, 02:21:59 pm
I will just say that I would hope I would have the guts to do what the guy that stopped the texas gunman did.  I would hope that I would do it even if it ment going to jail or dieing.  I haven't done anything like that in my life.  Hope I never have too but if put in such a situation, I pray that I could respond as well.  It was the right thing to do.  If they ever make a law against doing such a correct thing, it is the law that would need changed, not a heros action.

As an off subject, the last ladie to stop a church shooting in a heroic manner was fired because after saving them all she came out and said she was a lesbian.  Talk about twist of faith.  I just say on her too.  She can be a lesbian and she can be with out a job but they can not take away that one time in her life, she was also a hero.

I may not have the guts when called to be a hero (hope I do though) but I was watching one of my grandkids a couple of days and kinda stuck in the house and I got hooked on watching real life heros on you tube and some people are just amazing.  There is no doubt that whatever flaws all of us have, that for one time, the guy in texas who confronted a mass murderer, he was a hero.

The world is made a little better by the heros in it.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 13, 2017, 02:22:53 pm
Quote
I may be wrong about Stephen Willeford because I cannot find the interview where he said he shot him twice in pursuit.
You are wrong.  Not that it matters because any time he shot the guy would have been OK.  Remeber, the bad guy called his father after he crashed and said he'd been shot and then he shot himself.

He was shot twice exiting the church.  He was able to get in his car and drive off with the two good guys following him.  When he crashed, they kept the weapon on him until the police arrived, but by then he was dead by his own hand. 

Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: herbhome on November 13, 2017, 02:31:53 pm
Mike,

You are spot on. Prohibition didn't stop alcohol use. My dry county has a ridiculous amount of DWIs and drunken wrecks. Several years ago, Little Rock was the murder capital of the US, primarily driven by 14-15 yo.s fighting over crack turf. They got their guns from the same place they got the crack.

Hint: Not a licensed gun dealer and not a pharmacy. :smile:
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 02:32:59 pm
>Completely false Mike many people die taking legal drugs.  But this has no bearing on what I said.

It has every bearing.  If you can't keep something away from people that is illegal and that something is needed in constant supply (drugs), how will you control something that a criminal only needs once (a gun)?

Your idea that a gun seldom helps defend anyone is simply not true.

Is that my idea?  I don't think it is.  I understand full well what you are saying about self defense and the effect of just owning a gun whether you have bullets for it or not.  Maybe you can relate to a psychiatric nutcase with a semi automatic weapon and you with a hand gun taking you by surprise.  You don't stand a chance.

You will not stop all fatalities with any gun legislation nor will you stop all criminal activity with a concealed carry permit.  Neither is possible.  However there is evidence that you can curb mass shootings with legislation and in fact we do have some.  We are about to get a lot more.  Unfortunately I think it is going to be the wrong legislation because it will be based on fear and not what is effective.

FWI there is a bolt action rifle 4 ft away from my pillow at night.  I don't expect anyone that I should point it at will ask if it is loaded.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 13, 2017, 03:32:15 pm
IMHO, an unloaded firearm makes a pretty good boat anchor, an okay hammer but a lousy deterrent against a determined criminal.  If you are going to point an unloaded weapon at an intruder with a gun or knife, I just hope your life insrance pays real well.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 13, 2017, 03:38:29 pm
Quote
If you are going to point an unloaded weapon at an intruder with a gun or knife, I just hope your life insrance pays real well.

First lesson my father taught me...don't point it if you are not willing to use it. 

Can't use it if it's not loaded! 

Second lesson was don't carry if you don't believe you can use it.  It's not for scaring people...although if it does that and you don't have to use it, so much the better.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 13, 2017, 03:58:55 pm
Quote
If you are going to point an unloaded weapon at an intruder with a gun or knife, I just hope your life insrance pays real well.

First lesson my father taught me...don't point it if you are not willing to use it. 

Can't use it if it's not loaded! 

Second lesson was don't carry if you don't believe you can use it.  It's not for scaring people...although if it does that and you don't have to use it, so much the better.

I think your father taught me about guns, too.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: iddee on November 13, 2017, 05:51:00 pm
""You don't know much about prescription drugs and you haven't ever read the side effects""

I imagine I know a lot more about drugs than you think I do, and probably a lot more than you know.
Deadly side effects?? What are the odds, maybe one in a million or less?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Michael Bush on November 13, 2017, 06:07:44 pm
>  Maybe you can relate to a psychiatric nutcase with a semi automatic weapon and you with a hand gun taking you by surprise.  You don't stand a chance.

Actually I would stand a VERY good chance, especially if he's busy shooting someone else for the first few seconds and if I were in that position I would take that chance.  It's only the surprise that is the issue.  I have no use for a semi automatic.  An accurate gun is the real issue and someone who knows how to use it.  I can easily hit a half dollar at 30 feet with a revolver.  We used to shoot 12 gauge shotgun shells with our .357s at 200 yards and hit them about a third of the time.  Shooting prone, of course.  The semi auto does nothing to make the gun any more deadly.  I can hit a bullseye three times in less than 3 seconds at 100 to 200 yards with a bolt action.  I doubt I can do any better with a semi-auto.  You still have to aim.  Throwing a lot of bullets down range does not make a gun more deadly.  You still have to hit the targets.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 13, 2017, 07:30:12 pm
I like the simi-autos.  Except for the 22 cal and some of the old m-1s, they are easier to load and unload.  Of course I like the single shot but it is not my choice, just better then nothing.  Some just love the double barrel but I always kinda wondered why.  The bolt is ok.  I can not shoot as good as michael and miss pretty often expecially with hot loaded revolver loads.  I can't afford to shoot what it would be to be a natural and wasn't born with pure talant like some of my cousens. 

If I were in a situation like we are talking about, I would rather have the chance even though I might lose rather then no chance at all.  I have killed enough animals to know that just because they are shot, it does not mean that they fall right where you shot them every time.  So my view is that even if I lost the battle for myself, I might still win the war of good against evil.

You might point to the one time it didn't help or even went badly but for the guy it did go good for, he was better having a gun then not.  So, since life is not risk free, I retain the right to decide which risk I am comfortable with.  I keep a loaded gun right by my bed.  I don't do it cause I believe it garrentees anything.  I might sleep through it while a robber gets it out or a robber might just shoot me in bed before I know he is there.  I like the ideal that if it doesn't kill me that I can fight back and cause some harm of my own.

I am not tough, a good shot or very mean.  I don't want to live in a world where the stongest can do what they want.  I at least want some chance since every one is not good even if it is just a small chance.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 13, 2017, 08:25:26 pm
Gww, why do you miss more often with a hot load?  There's no recoil until the projectile leaves the barrel, so you may be flinching in expectation of the recoil. 

My choice of a weapon to keep beside my bed is my Glock .40 caliber with a Crimson Trace laser sight and, because an intruder would be in my home, I'd put the red dot somewhere in the top part of the head.  The guy in the church shooting may have been wearing body armor, so a head shot would have ended the discussion right there. 

Ace, I assume when you refer to a semiautomatic, you're talking about a long gun.  A long gun takes longer to move around into a new firing position, so a handgun, revolver or semiautomatic, is at an advantage at close range.  But my number one choice for a defensive weapon would be a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot and an extended magazine.  After going through an FBI short course many years ago, I'm convinced a perpetrator would have no place to hide.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 08:53:08 pm
But my number one choice for a defensive weapon would be a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot and an extended magazine.
That would be mine too.  Talking about your shooting skills means nothing when lead is flying at you.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 13, 2017, 09:12:34 pm
Dallas
It could be me though when I load 44 special loads I do better.  It could also be powder burn after leaving the barrel. (unburnt powder).  I do think I hit better with a 22 cal at all times and so it could be me.  I used to shoot all the time till I got cheep but never did get great with the short gun.  I am not great with the long gun but still get some meat in the fridge.  Could be attitude.  I take a shot gun and not a 22 when I squirl or rabbit hunt.

I do know guys that reload necked down rifle bullets and they like them hot but only as hot as they can get thier best gropings.  It all makes a differrance.  Myself, I only load the strait brass shells (mostly 44 mag or special).  I admit that I haven't loaded any for about the last ten years though.  I have some unique powder and some 2400 powder and about 8oo caps but just can't make myself buy more bullets and have never got into the casting.  I found back when I could buy 50 rounds of factory loads for $14 to $17 that it was still costing me $10.50 to load 50 rounds and that was me reusing the brass.  I have just been buying the little I use now days and just trying to not shoot much.  I like shooting but oh well.  It is rifle season right now but I am about tagged out and have meat in the frige and so got done pretty early so far this year.  It is not always this easy.  Pure meat hunter.  If I get horns, I brag like everyone else but must admit that I am almost dissapointed when I kill a big buck cause they have more meat but sometimes are a little rank and tough.  I don't live in one of those places where you can sit and not shoot and have ten deer go by.  My area is more like your get a few chances a year if you hunt pretty hard.

I switched from 30-06 to 308 this year.  Both are remington 742 simi-autos and I am really likeing the 308.

I have had bolts but some of it is sentamental value.  I grew up with the 742s and so I just love them.  I feel comfortable with them and they are my favorite probly cause most like what they are familure with.
My gun by my bed is just a little 22 cal ruger that was made while ruger was alive.  It was the prototype of the ruger mark 2.  I did have an old mouser 32 cal but lost it to a house robbery when I was living in indiana and came back to Mo for a couple of weeks.  All my stuff is old stuff.
Cheers
gww
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 13, 2017, 09:27:17 pm
Finally, we agree on something other than beekeeping, Ace. 

If the SHTF, and your life is on the line, along with the lives of others, go for the thing that does the job.  Besides, I like the psychological effect of the sound of racking the slide of a pump-action shotgun.  It would strike terror in the heart of most any person, and just might send them running into the night without any further conversation. 

I'm a fairly decent shot with rifle or pistol, having competed some, but when my life is on the line, I want a shotgun in my hands.  I've been tempted to get a Taurus Judge, a pistol that shoots .45 long Colt pistol ammo or .410 bore shotshell ammo.  Could be one heck of a defensive weapon at close range.

Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 13, 2017, 09:28:52 pm
I always figured that you were best protected using whatever you were most comfortable using.  I don't think you can beat a shotgun for home protection because you don't have to put on your glasses, worry that you are going to shoot through a wall, or even aim well.  That said, I keep a handgun by the bed and I picked up a Springfield 9mm for CC that is a nice fit.  I am not fond of the 9, but it was so comfortable in hand that I got it anyway.  Double stack so if the first few rounds don't do it, the next few ought to   :grin:

Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 09:39:32 pm
gww I could take deer with a billy club in my back yard.  Deer are plentiful and they are so complacent around the city.
Tomorrow I am going to pick up our pig from the butcher that just got arrested for selling deer meat.  You can butcher deer in this state for a price but you can't sell it.  We feed deer meat to the dogs.  It is organic!  Lots of people want to kill it but few want to eat it.  No doubt you could feed the homeless in the big apple with deer meat.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 13, 2017, 09:48:39 pm
GWW, the Ruger is a nice little gun.  Ruger turns out a lot of good guns, in fact.  And the .22 is not a bad choice, because, as Kathy says, you are comfortable with it.

I had a friend a long time age who hand-loaded .44 magnum loads so that they were  churning out about 50,000 psi.  Besides shortening the life of his S&W model 29, it was really painful to shoot a few rounds out of his gun.  I could never see the point of disabling your hand in order to send a bullet out of the barrel just a little bit faster.  And I had to use a mallet or something to get the caes out of the cylinder after firing his pistol.  Makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 13, 2017, 09:53:31 pm
And I had to use a mallet or something to get the caes out of the cylinder after firing his pistol.  Makes no sense to me.
It is about testosterone.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 13, 2017, 09:57:19 pm
gww I could take deer with a billy club in my back yard.  Deer are plentiful and they are so complacent around the city.
Tomorrow I am going to pick up our pig from the butcher that just got arrested for selling deer meat.  You can butcher deer in this state for a price but you can't sell it.  We feed deer meat to the dogs.  It is organic!  Lots of people want to kill it but few want to eat it.  No doubt you could feed the homeless in the big apple with deer meat.

My neighbor competes in barbecue cookoffs and barbecues meat for charity things. Here in Texas, we have a problem with feral pigs, as I'm sure is true across the south.  Now that it's cooling off, I intend to start shooting feral pigs and giving them to my neighbor to barbecue.  They can't be sold, because they were not examined by a vet prior to slaughter, but they can be given away or consumed by us and our neighbors. 
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 13, 2017, 11:03:18 pm
Ace
I think deer might be my favorite meat.  We make no sausage sticks or hamberger but mostly slice it thin, salt, pepper, flower and fry.  The dog does get some too.

Dallas
I agree with you.  The s&w 29 is a good light gun with a better trigger pull them my ruger red hawk but the ruger is built like a tank and would take the heavy loads if that happened to be your passion.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 14, 2017, 08:17:21 am
They can't be sold, because they were not examined by a vet prior to slaughter, but they can be given away or consumed by us and our neighbors.

I am heading to the butcher this morning to pick up our pig.  He is known as the deer man ... he got caught with 3200 pounds of deer meat in his freezer.  I hope he doesn't lose the business.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 14, 2017, 09:32:54 am
Dallas
We don't have pig that I have seen in MO yet but it is against the law to let them go and the state wants an effort to kill any that are found so the don't get started.  We do have your armandillo now.  They are pretty thick now since about the last ten years.

I have only tasted wild pig one time in my life and that time it tasted kind of goatie to me.

Ace, your butcher sounds like he sells a lot of deer meat.  We have a prossessor that sells deer and elk nation wide but I believe they are being raised like cattle and not wild.

When younger we had a couple of cows and pigs processed by it but I never knew till recentlly that they had a catalog and sold nation wide even though they been their my whole life.  They are located in a little one horse town called swiss and I think that is thier name also.  Swiss processing or something like that.

As far as guns go, I used to have a 45 llama 1911 style pistol that I liked best for shape and size but I gave it to my little brother one christmas cause he liked it too.

  I am an idiot with all my old stuff.  I got Chickens and so I took my only shotgun and kept it in my garage cause everything will kill a chicken.  It now has rust on the barrel from the heat and cold and humidity.  That is not counting all the dust due to building hives and things.  It was a nice gun before that bone head move.  I have a 30-30 that I fell off the bottom steps of a tree stand and broke the plastic but plate and cracked the stock on.  I have looked and found it hard to fine the correct but plate.  I dropped my 30-06 out of a 20 foot tree and it broke the little plastic dust cover over the reciever.  You can get them but have to take the gun compleetly apart to install it.  I have the skill but not the will power and so I store it with a piece of duct tape over the ejection port except when I am using it.  It still works perfect and the fall did not even move the scope as I killed deer with it after the drop.  Rather then fixing it I just started using the 308 which I am really likeing.

I am very selfish and don't like the bad things that poeple do with guns but also don't want a bunch of rules made where it becomes a hassle just to own them.   They have always been a big part of my life and I always look for what I consider good deals and would hate to have to do a bunch of paper work just to trade and buy and sell.  I bought a few guns from people needing money and the guns where good for them cause they had a way to get money and good for me cause I would get a fair deal.  The problim with trying to make money on guns is you would have to deal with too many people and too many guns because at best you are usually only going to make $50 to $100 for each gun you might sell.  I have bought guns and sold them just to make enough for a box of shells for my other guns.  What too many rules does is it makes it where only the really big buisness will think it is worth while and they will sell lots of guns with even smaller margins. 

That just takes one more thing that a small guy can play with and not lose his butt and makes it where only if you are big is it worth it.  They have already did that with thier liesencing to be a dealer by making the permit fee $600 rather then the ten bucks it used to be.  That fee raise only makes it worth it for big buisness and big box stores that deal in volume to sell.  No longer does a guy who just likes guns and will order it for you for ten buck profit.  It is just like when I was young and we would buy bucket calves and keep a couple of pigs around for extra money to supliment our real job. 

They regulate and get big conglomerates to be the only ones to do things and so everything ends up being done by only the biggest buisness.

It makes it hard to be an independant person that can have a few interest and talants and still get by.  Not every body wants to go big in just one thing or work for someone else and so I consider it a bit of a loss everytime a hobby gets regulated to where it is no fun to play cause it cost too much and if you want to play you have to go to the bigg guys and give them your money.

That is sorta more what I see as the truth then maby the government just really having a concern about safety.  And even if their concern about safty is genuine, it still caused the result of only the rich can play.
Just how an old uneducated dummy sees it.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 14, 2017, 09:49:26 am
Ace
I think deer might be my favorite meat.  We make no sausage sticks or hamberger but mostly slice it thin, salt, pepper, flower and fry.  The dog does get some too.

Dallas
I agree with you.  The s&w 29 is a good light gun with a better trigger pull them my ruger red hawk but the ruger is built like a tank and would take the heavy loads if that happened to be your passion.
Cheers
gww

Gww,

Yeah, I don't know why so many people make sausage with venison.  They have the best natural meat in the world and then they mix it with pork (at least that's what they do here) and ruin it.  I have never shot a deer, but I've hunted elk cows in Colorado and New Mexico and brought home hundred of pounds of good meat each time I managed to bag one.  I like to hunt cows because I don't care about antlers and I think the meat is more tender.

I don't hunt in Texas because all the land is privately owned.  We don't have a lot of forest service land we can hunt on like other western states, so you have to pay a lot to go on the ranches where the game are.

Agree that the Ruger is heavy duty, but there's no reason in the world to load so heavy that you can't eject the spent brass normally.  If you have to use a rod and mallet to get a case out of the cylinder, it's not fun to shoot anymore.  Besides that, the way the S&W frame is made, it rocked backs and the web between the thumb and forefinger was sore for a week after shooting that gun.  I can shoot a 12 gauge shotgun with a normal load with one hand and not have that kind of punisment.

Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 14, 2017, 10:03:10 am
Gww,

That wild pig you ate may have been an old boar.  I hear the big old ones get pretty gameyl. Or it may not have been dressed right.  Like deer or elk, if not properly field dressed and butchered, the meat doesn't taste good.

I'd be interested in knowing how to contact that place that sells venison.  I'm getting too old to hunt, but sure like that meat.  I went to a restaurant the othere night that had a venison tongue crostini appetiser on the menu.  It was delicious.  I never thought about the tongue before, but I've always liked beef tongue, so why not?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 14, 2017, 10:11:07 am
And even if their concern about safty is genuine, it still caused the result of only the rich can play.

First it is not government that is worried about safety it is people and they are not going to go away.  I agree that it is heading to only the rich can play.  In my state hunting has dropped off so much that deer are a problem, eating crops, scrubs and smashing cars.
I think the NRA is the problem.  They are taking a hard right stance about the fears of today and creating more fear.  They should be working with the other side to not only put proper controls that are effective they should support the enforcement of the controls that they think will work.  Instead the NRA spews out propaganda that no controls will work.  So now it is just butting heads and they will lose.  You have sited one way they are going to lose.
I bought my shotgun when I was 16 for $45.  What does a box of shells cost today?  What does a double barrel go for today?  The people that the NRA should be protecting they are screwing.  Not unlike a labor union.
Here is an idea: Why does an individual need to be a dealer?  Why can't the NRA be the dealer for every private sale and be responsible for the back ground checks?  I would even go so far that every citizen who wants a gun be a member of the NRA at a very minimal fee.  Or does the general population of gun owners not trust the NRA?
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 14, 2017, 10:18:58 am
I'd be interested in knowing how to contact that place that sells venison.

In my state if you like wild deer and it will be gamey every hunter I know has so much they give it away.  Stick to the southern zone where the deer are less gamey.  You go to the northern zone to get trophies.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 14, 2017, 10:28:20 am
I looked up the cost of becoming a dealer and it's $200 for 3 years and Renewal fee is $90 for the next 3 years, so i don't know where the $600 figure came from gww.  I used to have a FFL and, like you said, I'd order firearms for people and charge $10 or so to handle it.  But the paperwork was a hassle and my legal practice got so busy I couldn't do it any more, so I quit renewing my license. Now I don't have an office to do business in and don't want people coming to my home, so there's no way I'd be a dealer.

Ace,  you keep harping on the NRA.  I am an endowment member of the NRA and have been a life member since about 1974.  The NRA is membership run.  I vote for directors of the organization every year.  It isn't in business to be a big gun dealer.  It's an advocacy organization.  I suggest you get some brochures and educate yourself on the work and workings of the NRA, then we'll try to talk about it.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 14, 2017, 10:44:54 am
I'd be interested in knowing how to contact that place that sells venison.

In my state if you like wild deer and it will be gamey every hunter I know has so much they give it away.  Stick to the southern zone where the deer are less gamey.  You go to the northern zone to get trophies.

Well, see, I've never cared for trophies, so I don't hunt bucks (deer) or bulls (elk).  Never saw a rack I could eat and I've always hunted for meat.  Maybe bucks and bulls are a bit gamey, but I still contend that if a hunter properly field dresses a male animal and removes the glands right away, the meat will not be gamey.  That's what I was taught, but I just never went out looking for bucks or bulls -- well, not in the past 50 years, anyway.  I think it's better conservation to harvest females..   I was vice president of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation many years ago and studied that sort of thing.  At that time I was also a volunteer with the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish and a hunter safety instructor.  I've been away from that sort of thing since 1981 and have forgotten almost all the stuff I learned back then.

Good hunting, guys.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 14, 2017, 10:47:47 am
Dallas
I am very lucky that my dad ownes 180 acres.  I live on 20 and have killed deer off of my land but it is more hit and miss and since a new house was built on ten acres beside me, I have not seen as many deer. 

I have also only tasted elk one time and it was canned.  I do do deer like you and don't go for horns though if that is what I see first I will usually shoot it cause it is better then getting no meat. 

I don't like shooting heavy loads.  I really like shooting the specials out of the 44 cause my ruger is heavy enough that it almost makes it as pleasent as shooting a 22 cal when you shoot 44 special out of it.  I know somebody that just got a casual 454 revolver.  When I was younger I was more excited about such things.  My brother has a little 38 wheel gun and dad had the ruger gp 100 357 cal.  I was wishing after I bought my redhawk that I would have went more that route.  The red hawk has a 7.5 inch barrel and I used to have a sholder hoslter but it was like dragging out a long rifle from your side.  It is the only gun in my life that I have ever bought new.  I don't want to go to a 2.5 inch barrel yet but 5 or six inch would be better then 7.5 inch if you have decided you are not just going to hunt with it.

This link will get you the phone number.  I tried the web site but it did not come up.  They send out catalogs.  I don't think they are cheap.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=swiss%20processing%20plant&PQ=swiss%20proce&SP=2&QS=AS&SK=AS1&sc=8-11&form=AGWBSS&pc=MAGW

Ace
I am not an nra member.  I was for one year but found I did not like thier positions either.  They are big on the training thing with them setting up the training and you paying them to get it.  Now if you have a gun and the bullet only comes out in one place on that gun and you point that one place at something and pull the trigger you might hit the thing you point at.  Just how much should I pay for that info?

They have a couple of other positions like drug laws and such that they are big on enforcing and that have nothing to do with guns.  I know why they do it, a little bait and switch. 

Dallas
Even $200 is alot but I could be wrong.  It happened quite some time ago and I reamember when it was changing but didn't think I could do anything about it and so it was just something that I put in my mind that it happened.  Late 80s I think.  Maby it has changed more then once but I did not keep up.  I never put bad info out on purpose but also just remember feelings about things as they happen more then follow and know every fact.  I just remember how I felt when they were changing it.  I am glad you checked and called me on it cause now I know more.
Cheers
gww
Ps dallas, I am not one to carry around my trophy all day showing it off and then still expecting it to taste good.  I get on it.
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: kathyp on November 14, 2017, 01:28:55 pm
Quote
I think the NRA is the problem.

Maybe you could list some of those "hard right" positions you mention?  I, too, am a member and they are doing exactly what I pay them to do.

Quote
I am not an nra member.  I was for one year but found I did not like thier positions either.  They are big on the training thing with them setting up the training and you paying them to get it.  Now if you have a gun and the bullet only comes out in one place on that gun and you point that one place at something and pull the trigger you might hit the thing you point at.  Just how much should I pay for that info?

Paying for training!!  Who does that?   :wink:
They have a lot of great programs and sports shooting opportunities.  My membership is for advocacy.  I appreciate the education they offer because the better a person is at handling their weapon the safer they are.  Their programs for women and kids are especially good.  There is a range close to me that does the NRA womens training and it's pretty spectacular.  Many women are intimidated by firearms and afraid to ask for help.  Being in a class just for women is good for them.  I know of one who went from shaking so bad the instructor did hand over hand with her for weeks, to being a competitive shooter. 
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Michael Bush on November 14, 2017, 03:07:39 pm
>but my number one choice for a defensive weapon would be a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot and an extended magazine.

Self defense situations happen at two or three feet away usually.  That would be my last choice.  My first choice is a pistol where they can't just deflect the barrel or grab it.  Preferably one big enough to stop them if need be.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 14, 2017, 03:16:14 pm
>but my number one choice for a defensive weapon would be a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot and an extended magazine.

Self defense situations happen at two or three feet away usually.  That would be my last choice.  My first choice is a pistol where they can't just deflect the barrel or grab it.  Preferably one big enough to stop them if need be.

Normally, you are correct, but I'm referring to my home defence situation in which, if my alarm sounds, I have a long hallway between me and the front door and a sweeper would give me a big advantage.  Otherwise, my .40 Glock with laser sight would be my first choice.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 14, 2017, 05:22:34 pm
Kathy
I understand why the NRA promotes some of the training.  On almost every state for concealed carry they make you take a training course to get it.  I guess it is better then not being able to get it.  I will say that I took the course and spent my money and then never made an appointment thirty miles away to get the permit.  Lukily for me they changed MO law and now you can carry concealed even with out a permit which is what I did when I wanted regaurdless of the law anyway.  I just don't like the ideal of it and it is in many areas of life.  In indiana if you want your kid to get his drivers liesence at 16, you have to pay for a drivers course for him.  If you are born after 1964 and want to hunt expesially in places like colorado, you have to have a hunter safety course.  My view is that if all this is so important, they should teach it in school, which believe it or not, they did when I was young.

It just seems like promoting a money grab.

I do understand how they use it.  I even understand poeple deciding for them selves they want it.  I don't understand it being made a requirement that will keep more from enjoying the joys that are not that difficult that they need to provide training for it.  Politically, for every person who is lazy or has not help from a parent to pay the money and experiance those joys is one more person who could probly not miss it or think they are affected if the thing that is being enjoyed is taken away.

Dallas
My favorite defence weapon is the one closest to me when I need it.  I do agree with kathy that things you are more comfortable with give you more confidence.

My prayer is to never have to defend myself or hurt some one while doing so.  So far I have been lucky in this and am thankful for that.  I do think that pointing a gun at some one is not enough and so I would want bullets.  I remember when I was 18 and had one pointed at me and I was not smart enough to be scared.  Some guy was showing off to his friends.   He pointed it at me and said "you don't thing I will shoot and it made me lose my temper and I started walking towards him and said, "I don't know, will you"  I had a good friend that had saw what was going on and was on his way around the car to help me.  He had more sense when he saw what was going on and told me to get into the car.
This happened out side a bar with a group of guys leaning on my car when we came out and one walked out of his way to bump into me so he could show off.  I had never seen any of them before in my life.  I do not remember being scared but did get mad.  A loaded gun may not have helped me but with out my friend, an unloaded one might not had helped him.
Just saying.
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 14, 2017, 05:50:13 pm
Gww, as I mentioned above, in New Mexico I was a hunter safety instructor with the New Mexico Department of Fish and Game.  New Mexico also had a law as far back as early 1970 at lest that anybody born after a certain date or something had to complete a safety course.  It was free and the emphasis was definitely on safety.  It was offered at every office of the game and fish department.  It should have been free in Missouri, too.

The training may havevsaved some lives.  I hope so.

I have mixed feelings about carrying a weapon without a license.  For one thing, there are places here in Texas where carrying with or without a CCL is forbidden.  Then there's a property owner's right to forbid carrying and if you have a CCL and go in the place, you can lose your license and face felony charges just like those who don't have a CCL.  taking the course teaches you about these things.  I also question open carry, which we canbdo in Texas now.  That frightens some people, and it lets the bad guys know who to take out first.  I'd rather have them in the dark about my being armed.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 14, 2017, 07:53:41 pm
Dallas
I do not know if it was free or not but I do know for my nefews to get it, my dad had to take the day or two to take them to it cause their mom worked.  I know I tried to get both of my girls to take it and they were not interested and my reasoning to them was that even if now they were not interested in hunting that they may be invited on a trip of the life time and not be able to go.  Just such a thing happened when they were 30 years old and they were not prepared.  I hear you and you should be proud of your involvement but for me, I still think it is stupid. 

On the concealed and carry.  It was $100 for two 4 hour days and I went cause my exbrother inlaw was all gung ho but to be honest, I did it to please him cause I always had one when I wanted with out going.  Could I have got in trouble, yes, however, if I was feeling threatend and judging the odds of needing it, I took it and figured I would get a lawyer if it went bad.  I don't carry all the time, infact, maby only three or four times in my life.  I much rather have the law now where I need not be wrong and don't have to screw around with training that in the end will not give the person you are training comon sense if he has none.

One other thing about what happenned in the 70s just like you say.  My birth day was before 1964 and so I did not even need it and was taught it in school with no special trip to some office I don't even know where it was.  Now that people do need it you have to worki to get it.  I think all these things are one more hassle for parents that have to juggle their time as it is and could do just fine taking thier own kid hunting rather then a class room if they were going to spend the time and do quite well showing thier kids hunter safty by example and do it on thier schedual.  If they don't do that, I doubt they are going to take thier kid to some office to get it.  After a kid turns 30 you should not need to teach them anything.  They should have someone they can trust to do it by then.

I have open carried a lot.  Usually when deer hunting and some times fishing.

I think my grip about there being no need to jump through hoops on something as simple as fire arms is lagitamate.  That does not take away from the fact that as it is now, somebody has to do it and I have no doubt that you do it very well.  I don't know if the 4 to 8 hours you have with them is as good as a life time with a hunter parent or friend.

This is not a put down of your particapation but is a differrent belief that it is a needed hoop added on to people to particapate and one that probly does make more poeple not invested in the gun culture in a way that they do not mind if you lose what you have.  Poeple hate loseing thier stuff but don't seem to mind letting others stuff being taken away.  If a 30 year old whos parents were slackers gets a chance to go with friends on a good trip but they find out that before they can they have to waste two more days to be eligable, they might just say screw it and be lost forever.
I still say that in the end, the bullet only comes out in one place and if that place is pointed at the wrong thing and the trigger is pulled, you could hit that wrong thing.  It is not that hard.

https://www.hunter-ed.com/missouri/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Hunt_Missouri&utm_term=hunter%20safety&utm_content=Hunter%20Safety

I looked this link up and it says take the course on line and only pay after you have passed.  Even though I like the ideal of not having to go to a special place at a special time, it still looks like a money grab to me.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 14, 2017, 08:32:15 pm
Dallas
Here is the history of the fee changes and historic changes to the ffl and a chart showing its effect on the little guy.
http://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/History_of_FFL_License.pdf
So I may have gotten the $600 wrong but not the effect of the changes.  Page 10 shows cause and effect not even counting the other stuff done by george bush seniour or clinton.  It doesn't matter what republicans or democrats promise when we vote cause the trend is clear.  It is just extra hassle for people that got by fine with out it.

 The clearest example of good people getting hurt to stop bad people from being bad are things like this or like the regulating suitifed making it hard on sick people just so a bad person won't make crank with it.  I say some day they should just quit worring about stopping the bad people at the good peoples expence.  There has to be another way.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 15, 2017, 09:27:51 am
I think it's better conservation to harvest females..
Bucks are way harder to get then females and the bucks tend to kill themselves.  Females tend to be younger.  Gamey is a result of age and what they eat.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Michael Bush on November 15, 2017, 10:14:15 am
>Normally, you are correct, but I'm referring to my home defence situation in which, if my alarm sounds,

As Jeff Cooper used to say, everyone should have a 12 gauge in case they inadvertently find themselves hosting a motorcycle gang on their lawn...
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 15, 2017, 10:24:54 am
Ace
I find that except for the giant old ones, they are gamey but still pretty good.  The younger ones are better.  There is something to getting them processed and cooling the meat as quick as it can be done.  Also I think a deer that is on high alert with lots of adrinalin in it can effect the flavor.  It is better if they die quick.  I do think food the deer are on at the time can have a big impact.  I got lucky this year and think the deer are pretty much corn fed.  Most years there is soy been planted on part of dads but this year they did corn.  I also think the corn drew in the deer making for easier hunting this year.

The bucks are harder to kill if that is all you will kill.  I do try for young deer, does and button bucks but have had years where it was bucks coming in front of me but I agree over all bucks are harder.  This is expecially true the way we hunt.  We don't go out and scout for sign any more but just have about 5 stands that we hunt every year.  I think if you put the effort in you can improve your odds.  I am a meat hunter though and when the season comes, I just try to fill my tags to fill my fridge and take what comes.  In the 70s it was buck only and there were not as many deer.  I got skunked lots then.

I really do like deer meat about the best of all and once it is processed it is also an easy meal to throw together.  If we get company it is easy to fry deer or fish in the cast iron skillet and have food on the table with out cooking all day.  Some people are not fond of deer I think just due to the ideal of it but they all seem to like the blue gill and so having a full freezer keeps me always prepared to never let anyone leave my house hungery.

Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 15, 2017, 10:27:46 am
Jeff Cooper said a lot of things and said them very well.  Another was when a woman asked why he was armed and asked "Are you expecting trouble?" and he replied, "No ma'am.  If I was expecting trouble I would have brought my shotgun".
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Michael Bush on November 15, 2017, 11:23:58 am
When I started deer hunting I heard a lot of theories on why venison is sometimes gamey.  After 45 years of experimentation, I can only guess, since I never had any of mine that was gamey but I have tasted venison from other sources that was.  I tested every theory and the only one I have left is how the meat is handled.  How quickly it's gutted, how quickly it's cooled etc.  I have left scent glands on and cut them off.  I have skinned them immediately and left the skin on for two weeks.  I've had old, young, corn fed, grass fed etc.  They all tasted great.  The fat on the corn fed ones is always a bit strong, but if you cut the fat off, it's fine.  I'm kind of like Francis Bacon who said when he was young he had five theories on how to rear children.  Now he had five children and no more theories...
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 15, 2017, 01:34:52 pm
Also I think a deer that is on high alert with lots of adrinalin in it can effect the flavor.  It is better if they die quick.

In the northern zone the forest are so thick that it is hard to get a clear shot.  What use to be popular was to drive the deer.  Nothing but adrenaline.  I don't know if it is the same now.  You really had to trust your partners with the gun because the deer were between the drivers and the shooters.  Today I don't go in the woods ... to many people with expensive equipment and no hunting skills.
Way back when during my hunting years your tag was for one buck only and there was a lottery for a doe permit.  I never shot a deer and as it goes I never saw a deer in the woods with a gun in my hand.  Back then it was customary to hang a deer for three weeks.  You had to hang it high enough that the dogs wouldn't get it.  Now that I live in the southern zone I don't see that many hung.  Most people just take them to a butcher and they hang in a freezer if at all.  I have had gamey deer and ungamey deer.  It is an excellent source of organic meat with next to no fat.
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: gww on November 15, 2017, 02:36:28 pm
Ace
In the 70s and 80s when I was young and had to beg on to other poeples properties, we did a lot of driving and if not driving a lot of just walking in the middle of the day.  My how things have changed.  Now it is hunt an hour and a half or two, come in and eat breakfast and tell lies and then take a short nap and then go back out for a couple of hours in the afternoon.  We don't drag deer cause we now all have atvs.  I could not do now what we did then.

We also used to hang the deer but now days the seasons seem to be much warmer.  You could not get by with hanging the deer with highs in the 60s and lows in the 40s and sometimes even higher during the day.  It used to be that there was a chance for our first snow during deer season.


I try and get my deer skinned and deboned and cut as fast as possible.  It is a big job for not a lot of meat.  I believe there is a chemical reation in meat if you can leave it between 35-45 degrees for at least 24 hours that makes it more tender.  I have prioritized cleanlyness and taking no chance on keeping the meat too warm for too long and so just try and get it froze.  If I am thinking ahead, I will thaw it out a day before frying to make up the differrance.  If I am not thinking ahead, I will thaw in the microwave.  It is usually really good either way.

I do not miss the days of all that walking we used to do.

I still make bad shots when I should not at times and I do take some shots I shouldn't due to greed and wanting to fill the fridge.  I have killed lots and lots of deer but have lost a few that I know I hit but not that many.  You can not kill a deer if you don't see them and if you don't pull the trigger when you do.  I am sure I may have hurt some deer when I have shot and looked and could find no blood but am also sure that sometimes I just miss.

I have found deer I shot before by luck and backtracked to see where I made my mistake in not finding blood and notice that I misjudge sometimes the distance that the deer really was compared to where I thought it was and so I look pretty hard if I pull the trigger.

We are in the middle of deer season right now, I sit in the rain this morning behind my house but am not seeing anything close to home.

I have bow hunted a few times but mostly am pretty religious about rifle season cause a guy only has so much time and I can give up the ten or so days each year but have to be carefull cause like any hobby, if you used all your opertunities it would be all you would have time to do.  I like to come out even on my hobbies and that is another reason I am a meat hunter more then a trophy hunter.  My uncle killed a buck that would probly be about 140 points on boone and crocket yesterday.  The biggest I have ever killed is about a 120 which is good for our area.  I like what I have killed better then his for my purposes though.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Texas church shooting
Post by: Acebird on November 15, 2017, 04:45:33 pm
My how things have changed.  Now it is hunt an hour and a half or two, come in and eat breakfast and tell lies and then take a short nap and then go back out for a couple of hours in the afternoon.  We don't drag deer cause we now all have atvs.  I could not do now what we did then.
LMAO Ain't it the truth.
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I believe there is a chemical reation in meat if you can leave it between 35-45 degrees for at least 24 hours that makes it more tender.

Yeah, it is called rotting.  I like back straps a little on the rare side even though you take a chance eating rare deer meat.  Raised beef is doused with antibiotics and preservative so there is less chance of a bacterial sickness but it tends to shorten your life.  40 degrees would be a warm day in the northern zone.  Most deer froze even if you hung it in your garage.  But that was then.  I'm sure it is still cold enough now.

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I have found deer I shot before by luck and backtracked to see where I made my mistake in not finding blood and notice that I misjudge sometimes the distance that the deer really was compared to where I thought it was and so I look pretty hard if I pull the trigger.
Deer have an ungodly desire to live or just get away.  They will crawl right down in the swamp and brush where there is no way you can get to them.  They might come out in a clearing at night and die after you are gone so a lot of guys would mark a tree where they shot it and come back the next day.  Many have been found with three shots in them and you may have only fired twice.
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We are in the middle of deer season right now, I sit in the rain this morning behind my house but am not seeing anything close to home.
Most likely they are there but they are not moving, thus the reason for driving.