Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE CONSTITUTION => Topic started by: NeilTheCop on July 27, 2015, 05:47:57 pm

Title: Overseas aid
Post by: NeilTheCop on July 27, 2015, 05:47:57 pm
Cost the US taxpayer about $50 billion last year, yes billion.
Here's a list of who got what
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid)
Now this money, like all government money, came from the people, unless congress had a car wash or bake sale and didn't tell us, but

Article 1, section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

So how does giving, let's say Nigeria, one of the most corrupt counties on earth, $335 million of our money provide for the "common welfare and defense of the United States"?

Just wondering :wink:
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on July 27, 2015, 08:02:41 pm
we are not as careful with our foreign aid as we should be.  This does not give a very good breakdown of exactly how most of that money is disbursed or even exactly what they count as aid, except for the military part.  We spend a great deal on UN programs, and money dispersed through UN programs.  That would be  great place to cut.  The majority of the UN disbursements go to government with the promise the money or aid will be used for the people.  We know that is rarely the case. 

We do a lot of medical stuff overseas including using our military medical staffs for various programs.  is that aid, military aid, or even counted?  We are supposed to have limits according to human rights abuses, etc. but this seems often ignored.

It is to our benefit to be involved.  We gained a great deal of good will in Africa with our AIDS program.  The 2005 Pakistan earthquake aid was the first interaction that many of those people had  with Americans and they found we were not growing horns out of our head.  Same thing in Burma.
As a health matter, vaccine programs, clean water programs, etc. are to everyone's benefit.  It's' pretty easy to spread stuff all over the world these days. 

There are a lot of things that are questionable and there should be more stringent controls and reviews.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Michael Bush on July 28, 2015, 08:37:35 am
>So how does giving, let's say Nigeria, one of the most corrupt counties on earth, $335 million of our money provide for the "common welfare and defense of the United States"?

By buying us friends.  It has always worked so well in the past too...
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: NeilTheCop on July 28, 2015, 08:06:46 pm
While on the subject of Nigeria and money, our soon to be former president has promised to help Nigeria's President to recover some stolen money, which I'm sure includes part of the aid money we gave them.
Just plain wrong

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33689115 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33689115)
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Michael Bush on July 29, 2015, 10:16:25 am
>our soon to be former president has promised to help Nigeria's President to recover some stolen money

No, I think I know where it is.  It's in this Nigerian bank account and they offered to transfer it to my account if I give them a 10% fee...

Or maybe it's the guy who is trying to reimburse me for that other Nigerian being a scam... he's from Nigeria too and wants to transfer 2.5 million dollars to my account...  I'll bet that's where that stolen money is...
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 29, 2015, 10:04:41 pm
>So how does giving, let's say Nigeria, one of the most corrupt counties on earth, $335 million of our money provide for the "common welfare and defense of the United States"?

It doesn't... I like this quote from Ron Paul "foreign aid takes money from the poor people of this country and gives it to the rich people in poor countries." With very few exceptions I think Congress should be required to fund government spending with crowd funding Initiatives. That would do two things, first, programs would only be funded by people who support them. Second, program support would be instantly realized.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Michael Bush on July 30, 2015, 08:30:24 am
> I think Congress should be required to fund government spending with crowd funding Initiatives.

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 30, 2015, 01:39:09 pm
I thought I might get some agreement on that. That is my problem with Planned Parenthood. I believe that morality can not effectively be legislated so therefor I don't believe that making abortions illegal will work, but that doesn't mean tax dollars from people who are vehemently opposed to abortion should have to pay for it.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: NeilTheCop on July 30, 2015, 09:35:15 pm
I thought I might get some agreement on that. That is my problem with Planned Parenthood. I believe that morality can not effectively be legislated so therefor I don't believe that making abortions illegal will work, but that doesn't mean tax dollars from people who are vehemently opposed to abortion should have to pay for it.

Interesting concept.
When you fill out your IRS 1040 they have a small but highly optimistic 'Do you want $3 of your federal tax to go to the Presidential Election Campaign Fund?'
Let's expand that to 'Do you want $10 of your federal tax to go to a foreign country, possibly hostile to the US, with no accountability as to how it's spent?', and "Do you want $3 of your Federal tax to go to planned parenthood?'
And each year add to this list :tongue:

Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Michael Bush on August 01, 2015, 12:21:21 pm
> 'Do you want $10 of your federal tax to go to a foreign country, possibly hostile to the US, with no accountability as to how it's spent?'

I'm sure they would get a lot with that one... they might have ti spin it a bit better. :)
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on August 01, 2015, 07:38:49 pm
Quote
but that doesn't mean tax dollars from people who are vehemently opposed to abortion should have to pay for it.

Exactly, although the argument could be made that you don't stop murders from happening by making murder illegal, yet it is illegal.

And for those of us who believe life begins at conception, abortion is murder.  at any rate, no tax dollars should be spent on it.  If folks think it's so important, let them donate to PP and fund it.  Or let states fund it if they wish.  most of the things that get federal dollars, shouldn't. 
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: NeilTheCop on August 03, 2015, 09:03:03 pm
If someone needs/wants an abortion it means that the planning part of planned parenthood didn't work.

A moot point anyway, for the time being

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/03/politics/senate-planned-parenthood-defunding-legislation/ (http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/03/politics/senate-planned-parenthood-defunding-legislation/)

 
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on August 03, 2015, 11:57:56 pm
I don't get this.  All the stuff they cover other than abortion is now covered by Obamacare.  They aren't supposed to use fed dollars for abortion anyway.  So...why not take the money they are given and let some of these little, local clinics that would get it, use it for hiring, equipment, etc. 

Talk about a powerful lobby!  Death is good business.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Eric Bosworth on August 05, 2015, 09:21:02 pm
You're not supposed to get it Kathy.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: sawdstmakr on August 05, 2015, 11:11:21 pm
> I dthink Congress should be required to fund government spending with crowd funding Initiatives.

Absolutely!
I will second that.
Jim
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: NeilTheCop on September 01, 2015, 03:14:27 pm
At least we should save $1.5 billion a year now that Egypt doesn't need US aid money anymore.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34102656 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34102656)
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: sawdstmakr on September 01, 2015, 03:39:11 pm
Why would that stop Washington from sending them money. We send money to Saudia Arabia.
Jim
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: NeilTheCop on September 06, 2015, 12:42:48 pm
Saudi Arabia really needs it now that they are cutting spending and have issued bonds to cover their budget shortfall.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/oilprices/11847268/Low-oil-price-forces-Saudi-Arabia-to-cut-spending-amid-record-budget-shortfalls.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/oilprices/11847268/Low-oil-price-forces-Saudi-Arabia-to-cut-spending-amid-record-budget-shortfalls.html)
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on September 17, 2019, 04:47:12 pm
> I dthink Congress should be required to fund government spending with crowd funding Initiatives.

Absolutely!
I will second that.
Jim

Do you think 'Crowd funding' would cover the $3bn in military aid given to Israel in one year, or is that just wishfull thinking or dare I say it  buying votes?
cider
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on September 18, 2019, 03:48:39 pm
Quote
$3bn in military aid given to Israel in one year,

Considering how much we spend in European military aid, the cost is a bargain.  Additionally, they tend to take the hardware they buy from us and make it better.  That's a bargain for us also in research costs. We also get a lot of intel from them that they pay for and share with us.
We also spend many billions in Asia to protect countries and shipping against, primarily, Chinese aggression.

I'm not going to bleep about a few billion to Israel while we are spending multiples of that on the rest of you all. 
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on September 18, 2019, 06:29:11 pm
Quote
$3bn in military aid given to Israel in one year,

Considering how much we spend in European military aid, the cost is a bargain.  Additionally, they tend to take the hardware they buy from us and make it better.  That's a bargain for us also in research costs. We also get a lot of intel from them that they pay for and share with us.
We also spend many billions in Asia to protect countries and shipping against, primarily, Chinese aggression.

I'm not going to bleep about a few billion to Israel while we are spending multiples of that on the rest of you all.

Kathy
Israel is number three in receiving the most in aid.
Numbers One and Two are Iraq and Afganistan two countries you have been at war in when was the last time the US was at war with Israel? It looks as if your explanation is your glad to be using them as guinea pigs to improve your weapons (says a lot for your own R&D) don't think they would like the pigs though :smile:

If you object to as you say "spending multiples of that on the rest of you all" why do it? ITS  BECAUSE YOUR BUYING GOOD WILL :rolleyes: We do the same albeit to a smaller extent, $16bn, still way too much for a small nation. but still eqivialent to
$80bn by a country of your size.
Its the way of the world, get over it.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on September 18, 2019, 08:03:52 pm
Quote
If you object to as you say "spending multiples of that on the rest of you all" why do it? ITS  BECAUSE YOUR BUYING GOOD WILL

Nope.  Most of that money is spent on defense of European countries and Asian countries that should be spending more of their own dollars on their own defense.  The direct dollar aid is small in comparison.  Do we need to buy the good will of Europe, Japan, NK...?  I should think we have already done that.  Additionally, we spend a huge amount of money on the useless UN, and aid through them to many countries. 

Not to worry.  If some of our leftists have their way you all will get to make the choice between protection and welfare.  We sure won't be able to afford to spend on anyone else.   :wink:
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on September 19, 2019, 11:21:56 am
Quote
If you object to as you say "spending multiples of that on the rest of you all" why do it? ITS  BECAUSE YOUR BUYING GOOD WILL

Nope.  Most of that money is spent on defense of European countries and Asian countries that should be spending more of their own dollars on their own defense.  The direct dollar aid is small in comparison.  Do we need to buy the good will of Europe, Japan, NK...?  I should think we have already done that.  Additionally, we spend a huge amount of money on the useless UN, and aid through them to many countries. 

Not to worry.  If some of our leftists have their way you all will get to make the choice between protection and welfare.  We sure won't be able to afford to spend on anyone else.   :wink:
Which begs the question. Why do it?......(give the aid!)
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Michael Bush on September 19, 2019, 11:32:59 am
>Why do it?......(give the aid!)

I think Kathy covered the justification the politicians use.  In my opinion, there is no reason to give aid to anyone unless it is necessary to maintain some stability that would otherwise disintegrate.  And even then, it's probably not our job...
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on September 19, 2019, 12:52:11 pm
Quote
In my opinion, there is no reason to give aid to anyone unless it is necessary to maintain some stability that would otherwise disintegrate.  And even then, it's probably not our job...

I agree.  The current call to give more money to Central American countries so they can fix their problems and keep their people at home is one example.  Giving money to corrupt countries does not fix anything.  It just increases corruption. 
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Ben Framed on September 20, 2019, 11:22:36 pm
Cider I appreciate that you dug this one up from the past. Interesting topic. I wonder where the the rest of the original posters are. They made interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on September 30, 2019, 06:08:17 am
Cider I appreciate that you dug this one up from the past. Interesting topic. I wonder where the the rest of the original posters are. They made interesting discussion.
It is symtomatic of the 'Coffee House' all is falling by the wayside! Or should I say has :sad:
cider
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on September 30, 2019, 12:03:32 pm
Quote
It is symtomatic of the 'Coffee House' all is falling by the wayside! Or should I say has :sad:
cider

Is it?  I think all of us who are going into winter are less active on here.  Time for the Down Under people to pick it up   :grin:
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on October 01, 2019, 05:52:52 pm
 
Quote
It is symtomatic of the 'Coffee House' all is falling by the wayside! Or should I say has :sad:
cider

Is it?  I think all of us who are going into winter are less active on here.  Time for the Down Under people to pick it up   :grin:
I thought the opposite was supposed to be true that Winter gave more time to ruminate and conjugate before posting! :wink:
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: Kathyp on October 01, 2019, 06:23:30 pm
Quote
I thought the opposite was supposed to be true that Winter gave more time to ruminate and conjugate before posting!

Guess it depends.  I have more work to do in winter than in summer and the days are shorter.  Less time to play here or anywhere. 
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: iddee on October 01, 2019, 09:20:20 pm
More or less, I don't know. Cabin fever does make people less friendly in the coffee house in the winter.
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on October 02, 2019, 05:26:04 pm
More or less, I don't know. Cabin fever does make people less friendly in the coffee house in the winter.
As you may imagine, for you, I agree.  :wink:
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: iddee on October 03, 2019, 06:46:21 am
NOT ME!

I'm grumpy and grouchy all year.    :tongue:
Title: Re: Overseas aid
Post by: cidersabuzzin on October 03, 2019, 04:44:00 pm
NOT ME!

I'm grumpy and grouchy all year.    :tongue:

Is the 'Constitution' turning into a winter 'Coffee House'? but then again the 'Coffee House' is more important!  :grin:
......cider....with a hat on....