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MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: BlueBee on August 13, 2012, 01:21:04 pm

Title: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 13, 2012, 01:21:04 pm
So what do our beeks think about Mitt Romney’s VP selection? 

Is he’s going to be as good as Sarah Palin?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 13, 2012, 01:40:35 pm
i'm happy. i have watched him for awhile and he has what it takes to go up against this admin on budget issues.  in fact, he already has.  i remember when he faced off against obama and i thought the prez might stroke out he was so angry.  :-D  it was a pleasure to watch!
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Keith13 on August 13, 2012, 03:14:27 pm
I like him and respect himhe doesn't flip flop on issues.

I like the DNC reaction especially the commercial of Ryan throwing granny off the cliff. ole hussein seems to be pulling out all the chicago style politics on this one. Its not nice to see the office of President of the US brought to such low levels :( but i would expect nothing less from that bunch

Keith
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BjornBee on August 13, 2012, 04:41:35 pm
There were several others that probably are more charismatic or would bring more "star" power to the ticket.

I think this selection only goes to show that real issues, and real solution, some of which we may not like, but needed for the future of this countries success moving forward, will be offered.

We do not need a slick Willy, or some guy selling a cliche slogan. We need folks to work on real issues. We need a change in the white house. And I like Ryan's willingness to take on issues other politicians run from in fear, of getting less votes.

I would like the ticket better if Ryan was Pres, and Romney was V.P.  :-D

Compared to Obama, and the side kick idiot he has, this is a huge step forward.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 13, 2012, 06:12:19 pm
They are already calling him an extremist. The debt is an extreme problem that needs extreme solutions. The oppositions only solution is to tax the rich. Even if they took all the riches money,it would not even pay the amount of this years budget deficit,let alone tackle any of the debt.
Vote for the status quo if you think taxing the rich and not trimming spending will get you any where. the government has taken enough of the peoples money. they have a spending problem,not a revenue problem.
 I can guarantee if we go along with all the tax increases this bunch want that the only thing that will result is an increase in spending.
 I like Ryan but don't think they will go far enough. They need to balance the budget for 2013 Period,no more deficits. Then keep cutting until they can start paying down the debt that is increasing exponentially.A balanced budget slows the rate of debt growth,without paying some of it off,it grows without even borrowing more money.
Spending money you do not have is bad,period.Spending the next generations potential is worse. Doing it to grandchildren before they are even born is just shameless.
 But hey,it will be a start.If you can get people investing in the economy without fear of government takeovers,the revenue stream will start into the treasury again.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 13, 2012, 06:13:54 pm
I can't wait for a face off between Ryan and Biden. Bumbling Joe will make himself look bad on the economic issues, and Ryan can only fuel the fire.
Ryan will be sure to keep the focus on the economy.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: hardwood on August 13, 2012, 06:18:04 pm
Dang! I was over looked again...maybe 2016.

Scott
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 13, 2012, 06:24:22 pm
Scott,
I think it's the Hippie hairstyle,LOL!! :)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Geoff on August 13, 2012, 07:24:09 pm
   From 10,000 miles away the obvious solution is a new political party, the East-West American Citizens. Kathyp for president and Buzzbee as the vp. I would not be fussy, the other way round would be just as good.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 13, 2012, 09:29:05 pm
Geoff if they think Ryan is extreme, what do you suppose they'd say about me?  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: David McLeod on August 13, 2012, 10:31:36 pm
My opinion of Romney went up several notches. I guess he is really serious about what he thinks needs to be done rather than running just to be president. He could have taken a much easier route with a so many of the others or gone for the star power with Rubio (I still like Rubio and think he's going places) but by picking Ryan he has got a numbers cruncher that is willing to get his hands dirty. I should have known a solid businessman was going to get the best numbers guy he can but I would have thought a politician would have played it safe and brought him onboard in a cabinet post. Nope he's got guts and it is probably the only thing that will get the Romney/Ryan ticket elected. Ultraconservatives like myself were going to vote antiObama anyway but if Romney takes the fight straight to the failure at 1600 then I think many of us will vote for Romney instead of just antiObama.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 13, 2012, 11:05:25 pm
i wasn't concerned about what romney wanted to do.  i figured he'd approach this as a business recovery challenge.  i was concerned that he didn't have the nuts or the ability to break things down so that every day people could understand and could understand the coming hard times. 

you are right.  he could have made a safer pick.  he could have picked, as so many do, someone who would not be a challenge to him.  i think ryan will challenge him intellectually.

a good leader doesn't need to know everything, but they need to find and trust the people who do know things.  it's only a poor leader who surrounds himself with sycophants and/or weak people.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 14, 2012, 01:35:57 am
   From 10,000 miles away the obvious solution is a new political party, the East-West American Citizens. Kathyp for president and Buzzbee as the vp. I would not be fussy, the other way round would be just as good.
Whew....for a minute there I thought you were going to suggest KathyP and iddee for the ticket  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on August 14, 2012, 09:22:30 am
That wouldn't work. One of us would have to be vice pres, and neither of us have vices.   :evil:   :-D :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on August 14, 2012, 12:32:50 pm
The funny thing is, we now know more about Ryan's personal life then we do our president of 31/2 years. And the VP announcement was just Saturday.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sawdstmakr on August 14, 2012, 12:39:23 pm
The funny thing is, we now know more about Ryan's personal life then we do our president of 31/2 years. And the VP announcement was just Saturday.

That is so true it is scarry.
Jim
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Keith13 on August 14, 2012, 02:54:02 pm
that is true and yet one more reason why people believe the MSM to be left leaning or as some believe fallen off the left wing cliff. Fox is continually labeled for how right wing wacko they are. When in reality the problem is the MSM is so far left that Fox news is seen as extreme right even though they generally play down the middle. It is really a shame, and the media knows, Americans are lazy and will believe whatever they see on TV. So be it Ryan throwing granny off the cliff or Reid saying Romney hasn't paid taxes in 10 years Americans will hear and take it for fact. The current administration knows lying is fair game in these new elections. Facts no longer matter we watched for the last 3.5 years as this administration lied to the people now we are surprised they will lie to get reelected.
What was it obama called his administration Clear and transparent? Yeah freaking right.  Its a shame but I see Romney losing this election if he runs a clean race. He needs to hire the investigators to "retrieve" obama's college transcripts. He needs to dig up the dirt that will cast this clown in a negative light to the 52% of takers in this country.

sorry for the ramble

Keith
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 14, 2012, 06:17:26 pm
you have earned the right to ramble  ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 14, 2012, 06:29:49 pm
Yeah it's funny ,it took so long to see anything proving citizenship(which is required) and demanding to see a tax return of a private citizen Which Romney is until confirmed at the convention. If Reid has seen anything from the IRS on Romney at this point,I think a felony has been committed.
Still some doubts of the validity of the natural born citizen . And where are Obamas transcripts from college? The media will never ask for anything from the left.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Boom Buzz on August 14, 2012, 08:52:59 pm
Blue Bee to weigh in on the original question, I think Ryan was a strong positive choice for Romney and should play well for right of center conservatives.  I see Romney as a middle of the road conservative at best, so Ryan should energize the true conservative set.  I think one of Romney's strengths is his business experience and executive leadership ability as shown at both Bain and with the SLC Olympics.  Ryan brings a solid budget mindedness and acumen to the table.  The country needs this kind of leadership right now.  Not saying either one is perfect, but I think they have a better chance of getting America back to work, and reigning in deficit spending, than the current guy.  Honestly, it seems like the current administration and liberal leadership want to dismantle the USA and the constitution as we know it.  If the economy can get humming again I think a lot of the class warfare division the liberals have created will subside.  But we need a business friendly political and policy environment to get the economy humming.  Companies are sitting on cash and not investing because the political/business environment holds too much uncertainty.   I think Romney/Ryan has the better chance to restore a pro business environment in which companies can know what to expect, know what their costs are going to be, and thrive without getting hassled for being successful. 
So I think Ryan was a positive choice all in all.  My 2 cents...

John
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 14, 2012, 10:16:24 pm
Right you are Boom Buzz.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on August 14, 2012, 11:24:36 pm
... And where are Obamas transcripts from college? ...

I guess his college transcripts are in the same place Adlai Stevenson's was found, in the college president's office safe.  BTW, Stevenson flunked out. This Obama records thing is hardly a new way for leftist college presidents to dissemble and lie to the nation about (meaning for) their little left wing darlings..
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 14, 2012, 11:34:53 pm
it's not his transcripts i'm interested in.  it's the scholarship info.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 14, 2012, 11:36:12 pm
I think that the VP pick can only have a negative impact on a race like Palin did... In the past the VP pick hasn't ever helped a candidate. The VP doesn't have any Constitutional roll except to preside over senate proceedings and cast a tie breaking vote if it ever came to that.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 12:09:46 am
Quote
I think that the VP pick can only have a negative impact on a race like Palin did.

except that she didn't.  there was no excitement over McCain until Palin.  he was never going to win, but he had a better chance with her than without.

you are correct that there is no big job for the VP other than what you noted.  however, he can be either an asset or drag depending on the person and how the president uses him.  if the president takes him as an adviser and partner, he can be an asset.  if he is articulate and can reach people with the positions of the president, he is definitely an asset.

in this case, ryan is an asset.  he can formulate a plan, but even better, he can speak to the people and explain the plan.  as a plain speaker, he is probably better than romney and will be heard better by the people.   

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BabcockFarms on August 15, 2012, 12:47:31 am
Kathy,

You hit the nail on the head!

Ron
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 15, 2012, 07:42:32 am
Quote
there was no excitement over McCain until Palin.  He was never going to win
Huh :?  If he never had a chance to WIN then why did the all knowing Republicans nominate him :?

As for the college transcripts, could somebody please provide me a link to George W Bush’s college transcripts, or Dan Quayle’s, or Sarah Palin’s?  
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 15, 2012, 08:01:33 am
I think that the VP pick can only have a negative impact on a race like Palin did... In the past the VP pick hasn't ever helped a candidate. The VP doesn't have any Constitutional roll except to preside over senate proceedings and cast a tie breaking vote if it ever came to that.

The VP also assume the role of President if the President is incapacitated in any way. Which is why Speaker of the House is also important as that would be the third in lineup if something happened to both President and Vice President.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 15, 2012, 10:27:36 am
I disagree. I think McCain would have won without Palin. She was a major liability and even McCains top advisers have said so. 

I know enough about Romney and his politics to say that he, under no circumstance, will allow the VP candidate take center stage. He put him on the ticket because he was one of the few names floating around who hasn't been seen in the media in the past bashing Romney.
He is a safe pick. I think it was actually a match planned back in March when Romney and Ryan were meeting frequently and Ryan endorsed Romney right before the Primary. I think it may have been pre-arranged agreement.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 10:37:53 am
Quote
If he never had a chance to WIN then why did the all knowing Republicans nominate him

it was a question i often asked myself. 

Quote
I know enough about Romney and his politics to say that he, under no circumstance, will allow the VP candidate take center stage. He put him on the ticket because he was one of the few names floating around who hasn't been seen in the media in the past bashing Romney.
He is a safe pick. I think it was actually a match planned back in March when Romney and Ryan were meeting frequently and Ryan endorsed Romney right before the Primary. I think it may have been pre-arranged agreement.

i'd guess you don't know much about ryan, or you'd probably see  him as a good match to romney the business man.  of all the people he could have picked, this one is, to my mind, the best.  and certainly no safe! 

i may be wrong on this, but i think that romney will put ryan center stage quite a bit.  if he does not, it will be his loss.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 15, 2012, 10:52:28 am
I think Ryan is a Bear on the Budget Committee. I think taking him out of there and making him VP is like pulling the Bears teeth. You still have a Bear, just not one that can do much.

He did recently say that "they" will repeal "obamacare" and Replace it. which is a shift from what Romney has been preaching up til this point. I wonder what they will do Scratch out Obama and insert Romney?

The Mass Universal Healthcare act is going to really haunt Romney during this election... his prior stances on gun control will also haunt him.

I don't think he would be a bad President; I just don't think he has much chance of winning. His policies as Gov were very liberal in nature, and now he is singing a different song and voter's hate that. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 11:09:39 am
Quote
which is a shift from what Romney has been preaching up til this point.

that's exactly what romney has been saying from day one.  repeal and replace.  everyone agrees that changes need to be made. 

Quote
The Mass Universal Healthcare act is going to really haunt Romney during this election... his prior stances on gun control will also haunt him.

the state health care issue is not such a big thing because states can do this kind of stuff.  sometimes it works.  sometimes it doesn't.  these kinds of things should be tried in the states not at the federal level.

i have a problem with some of his gun control stands, but when you look at what was wanted in the state, what he did was a compromise more in favor of the 2nd.  was that the best he could have done in that state?  i don't know.

Quote
I think Ryan is a Bear on the Budget Committee.

true, but how many people even know that ryan came out with two budgets.  how many times do you hear the left say "what is
Quote
your
plan?"  if ryan can get out there and let people know what's going on and that there IS a plan to fix it, he might help swing the senate also.  without that, no plan goes anywhere.....just as no budget gets done.....


Quote
I don't think he would be a bad President; I just don't think he has much chance of winning. His policies as Gov were very liberal in nature,

liberal for me, but not for his state.  this is true with lots of govs that i like.  Christy is far more liberal than i, but he's getting things done in NJ.  if he were as conservative as i, he would not have been elected in that state! ;)

-i think we did get at least the grades of bush and kerry.  that's how we found out that bush had a marginally better GPA than kerry  :-D  as i said, i don't care about his grades.  it would be interesting to know what classes he took, but more important, i want to know about the scholarship.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 15, 2012, 11:32:53 am
Actually he has been saying that on day one he will "repeal" obamacare which as President he does not have the power to do. Only Congress can do that. His web site states that he wants to give the power back to the State's which is really doing nothing as far as replacing it.
From his site:
Quote
In place of Obamacare, Mitt will pursue policies that give each state the power to craft a health care reform plan that is best for its own citizens.
Which is the power that every State had prior to the Healthcare Reform Act and most did nothing about; except Massachusetts under Mitt Romney and Vermont under Howard Dean. Hence the need for the Federal government to take action in the first place.

I do agree with you that without the power of Congress it doesn't make any difference who wins this one.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 12:46:40 pm
Quote
states that he wants to give the power back to the State's which is really doing nothing as far as replacing it.

when he talks about replacing, i sure do hope he's not talking about another federal program!!  replace it with the reforms we need like tort reform, insurance requirement reforms.  get us back toward a market based system and let the states do what works best for each state. 
replacing one federal mess with another is not what i want.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: indypartridge on August 15, 2012, 01:03:40 pm
Quote
I think that the VP pick can only have a negative impact on a race like Palin did.

except that she didn't.  there was no excitement over McCain until Palin.  he was never going to win, but he had a better chance with her than without.
Exactly. Most don't remember that following the selection of Palin as VP, McCain moved ahead of Obama in the polls, and remained ahead until the financial meltdown in mid-September. Once that happened, it basically became toxic to be Republican  - since the meltdown was entirely Bush's fault - and "Change" became an attractive alternative.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Boom Buzz on August 15, 2012, 01:57:57 pm
I think Sarah Palin was a polarizing choice for VP.  Yes, she energized the right and the values voters.  But she was also energized the left and the media.  Personally I like her values but I am not sure she would have made a good President if McCain were to expire.  Seems like most people either love her or hate her.

But the Sarah Palin choice really brought home how easy it is for the media to manipulate the public.  The attached link to a youtube clip on How Obama got elected shows how the media shaped a lot of voters knowledge (or lack there of) about the candidates.  This sampling of voters knew the dirt on Palin, but could not answer some basic questions on the other candidates and political figures.  Some of you may have seen this before.

How Obama Got Elected... Interviews With Obama Voters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8#ws)

I think Ryan will be an asset for the Romney campaign due to his fiscal, budgetary and economics acumen.  And I think he has the potential be a solid Presidential candidate in his own right in 8 years.  But the media left is already working to paint him as evil and we've seen how effective they can be at manipulating the public.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 03:11:39 pm
i have encouraged my conservative friends to get informed and engage in the debate.  i was on a conservative site right after the announcement and the liberals were all over it.  it was a womans site and the liberal posters were female.  no accident.

if we want to win, we need to go after every attack with the facts.  it's not that hard.  it takes some time, but i figure i can sleep after the election!

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 15, 2012, 03:50:18 pm

when he talks about replacing, i sure do hope he's not talking about another federal program!!  replace it with the reforms we need like tort reform, insurance requirement reforms.  get us back toward a market based system and let the states do what works best for each state. 
replacing one federal mess with another is not what i want.

Going back isn't Replacement. Romney and Ryan need to get on the same page or they will have big problems. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 06:02:54 pm
Quote
Going back isn't Replacement. Romney and Ryan need to get on the same page or they will have big problems.

it's not about the page.  it's about the book.  it's a big one and i don't think you quite have the plot yet.   ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on August 15, 2012, 07:42:38 pm
... As for the college transcripts, could somebody please provide me a link to George W Bush’s college transcripts, or Dan Quayle’s, or Sarah Palin’s?

Bush's transcripts are available at the New Yorker Magazine’s web sight.  Have your American Express Card in your hot widdle hands when you log on.  Better get yourself a good mouth piece lawyer as well, its a crime to posses another’s college transcripts without that person okay dokying the release.  More on this later.   Hillary Clinton's college transcripts are as missing in action as the Swing era band leader Glenn Miller, the old gal won't even disclose the titles of her term papers.  If you ask me something is rotten in the State of Denmark or Illinois, or Massachusetts, or Arkansas, or New York, or Columbia DC the District of, or what ever other state the First Carpet Bagget In Chief decides she is from next week. This is especially true since Franklin D. Roosevelt did not mind releasing his transcripts and they were all "Gentlemen C minuscees" in other words just good enough to get him out the door but only if his professors and the dean overlooked FDR’s grades but not his families’ large drug money fortune.

On the other end of things Richard Millhouse Nixon is far and away the all time brain of all 43 presidents.  Jim Carter and Herb Hoover are close behind Nixon in the brains and grades department.  But these three boys were the most political smarts & personality challenged of all the Presidents in the 20th Century.  I can just see Nixon shaking his 5:00 shadow at the camera and saying, "Thank God for that kid from Hawaii with the queer sounding name, his administration makes mine look like a Boy Scout Jamboree."  So I guess every cloud (or is it every clod) does have a silver lining.

During the 2004 presidential campaign, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry was assumed by many to be Bush's intellectual superior. But months after he lost to Bush, his college transcripts were inadvertently sent to the Boston Globe and he was revealed to be a C student as well, earning four Ds his freshman year. (Stung by allegations that his Vietnam War service was not what he had claimed, Kerry had given permission for his Navy records to be turned over to the newspaper. The college records were part of those documents.) Can a mediocre student hope to achieve the highest office?

The answer is self-evident.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/28/news/la-pn-college-transcripts-replace-birth-certificate-for-obama-detractors-20120526 (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/28/news/la-pn-college-transcripts-replace-birth-certificate-for-obama-detractors-20120526)

Does presidential candidate grades matter "To those of you who received honors, awards and distinctions, I say well done,"  President Bush told Yale graduates in 2001. "And to the C students, I say you too can be president of the United States."

That is the difference between a Democrat politician and a Republican man of the people.  The Republican is just much much more honest and forth coming besides having a better sense of humor.  Now what was it you wanted to know Bee?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 15, 2012, 08:21:20 pm
Quote
Going back isn't Replacement. Romney and Ryan need to get on the same page or they will have big problems.

it's not about the page.  it's about the book.  it's a big one and i don't think you quite have the plot yet.   ;)

I get the plot just fine. You are Conservative and settling for a fairly liberal Candidate in hopes of winning. I am fairly liberal and am completely comfortable with a possible Romney Administration because I know how liberal he is.

You write off selling out your "values" for a more Liberal candidate chocking up his record as geographical... So what happens next time around when the nominee is still way left of you, and the time after that? At what point do you stop and realize you have been bamboozled by the leftward shift of the country?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 15, 2012, 09:18:03 pm
i am conservative.  i'm also pragmatic.  i realize that few are as conservative as i.  none of the more conservative candidates, save perry, really did anything for me.

while romney is more liberal, and i don't chalk that up to geography, he also has many of the skills that this country desperately needs right now.  he just added to that skill set by his VP pick. 

yes, i'd like a more conservative pick.  i don't get a say because by the time we have our primary, it's a done deal.  yes, i'll vote for romney and i won't have to have a barf bag in the other hand, as i did when i voted for mccain. 

the majority of the country in ideology is right of center and left of me.  that's ok.  it's pretty much always been that way. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 15, 2012, 11:52:05 pm
Quote
the majority of the country in ideology is right of center and left of me.  that's ok.
And we’re off to dreamland again…..    :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
LOL, and the MAJORITY of the country voted for Obama. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 16, 2012, 12:02:09 am
Bush's transcripts are available at ......
Hillary Clinton's college transcripts are .......
Swing era band leader Glenn Miller...... (sing sing sing)
and the dean overlooked FDR’s grades but not his families’ large drug money fortune....
Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry was .... revealed to be a C student as well, earning four Ds his freshman year.
The Republican is just much much more honest and forth coming besides having a better sense of humor.  Now what was it you wanted to know Bee?
KingBee that was a very thorough response, thanks.  I guess that just leaves me with one more question…..
Where are KingBee's transcripts  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 01:17:41 am
you didn't read very carefully.  i said right of center in ideology.  they often don't vote their ideology.  blacks, for instance, tend to be socially conservative yet they vote democrat.  they do that because they don't know history and have believed the rewrite of it.  southern whites tend to be quite conservative, but vote democrat because this is the party of southern apartheid.  Catholics are social conservatives but they vote democrat because they don't get the difference between church charity and government charity.  same with the Jewish population.  both religions, having been governing bodies as well as religious bodies, have confused the two in our system. 

if you just talk to most of these people on issues, they should align with republicans more than democrats.  like much of the population, they don't bother to educate  themselves past the 6pm news and MSNBC.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 08:38:30 am
I think you have made some Gross generalizations. Ethnicity and Religious affiliation is NOT data that is collected on Voter registration cards or on a ballot. That is media outlet hogwash and while pollsters can see leanings because they do collect that sort of information...The "Black Vote" doesn't all go for one side or the other, (Herman Cain, Mrs Rice) Just like the Majority of white's don't all vote one sided. A lot of the minority groups vote has to do with their upbringing. In Southern area's the black vote probably leans more heavily Democrat due to a culture of going against the establishment and in those areas the establishment is Largely Republican... The Jewish culture largely lives intercity and regardless of where they branch out to they stick with the party they grew up with.
I don't know where you are getting your Catholic leanings from, I have worked for Catholic Hospitals, I live in a Catholic area and most Catholics I know are Republican or Independent. Some of my closest friends are Catholic and they typically are in opposition of my views.

Now as far as being "uneducated". The 12 people interviewed in the video linked above doesn't reflect anything. I could have answered the majority of those questions at election time... If I wanted to make a positive video about Obama supporters I could just as easily pulled 12 people out of the 100s that go through a polling station on election day, asked the same questions and selected only people who could answer the questions, just like they did. I can pick a polling station this season and find plenty of Romney supporters who will not be able to tell me:
1. how many kids Romney has.
2. Which candidate has signed an assault weapons ban into law.
3. Which candidate was first to pass a universal healthcare law.
4. What is Romney's religious affiliation.
5. What is Obama's Religious affiliation. (I would get a whole bunch of wrong answers on that one) 
Etc.
It is hard to remain open minded and stay abreast of the issues in elections today. Every interest group on the planet has the right to bombard the airways with half truth's or blatant lies and if people hear it enough, they believe it. This is why the independent vote is so important. The Independents are the people who see through the Parisian carp and make their decisions based on their own research. The bases of the party's are the people who support one side or the other because they think they are watching a football game or something... It makes no difference what each side stands for... that is their team. This is how the Republican party became so fiscally irresponsible.

What it comes down to is that we each have our one vote... It is our choice to cast that vote the direction we think is best... Brainwashed by media or not... It is our vote and nobody has the right to question that vote.         
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 09:03:08 am
Oh I forgot one:
6. Which Candidate is campaigning against Government Bailouts, but asked for, and got, 600 million in Fed dollars to bailout the Olympic games?

If you really want to know why the Black population will not vote for Romney:
It can be found in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on page 269. This is the teaching Romney has spend his life in service of
Quote
 Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species.

In other writings he stated that the best thing to do with the Negro was to put them on ships back to Africa.

The minute Romney starts talking about his religion he is sunk; unlike Obama who's religious affiliation was made up last time, Romney's religious affiliation is very real. And 80% of the nation view the LDS church as a cult. Luckily nobody is asking about it, yet... The Obama camp will not touch it, they have more integrity than that... but somebody will bring it up before this election is over and we will see how well Romney can skirt around it.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: David McLeod on August 16, 2012, 10:50:29 am
you didn't read very carefully.  i said right of center in ideology.  they often don't vote their ideology.  blacks, for instance, tend to be socially conservative yet they vote democrat.  they do that because they don't know history and have believed the rewrite of it.  southern whites tend to be quite conservative, but vote democrat because this is the party of southern apartheid.  Catholics are social conservatives but they vote democrat because they don't get the difference between church charity and government charity.  same with the Jewish population.  both religions, having been governing bodies as well as religious bodies, have confused the two in our system. 

if you just talk to most of these people on issues, they should align with republicans more than democrats.  like much of the population, they don't bother to educate  themselves past the 6pm news and MSNBC.

Kathy, I'm as strong a conservative, if not more so, than you but I do have to weigh in on these generalizations. Not that you're wrong as the groups you mention, save the southern whites, do historically vote en masse as you say. I know I can speak directly to the southern white as I am a seventh generation Alabamian by birth and my pure highland Scot ancestry makes me as white as they come.
If you were speaking to 20 years ago you would be correct to say that many southern whites remained yellow dog democrats but thanks to a fellow southern white in the form of William Jefferson Clinton the complete and full transition to Republicanism, first began by Ronaldus Magnus in 1980, was completed. The midterm shift in 1994 was far deeper than just a party switch. My own grandparents were of the yellow dog stripe. Yet my own father was the first of my family to become active in the ways of the republican party as early as the election of 1976. My own mother, to my chagrin, proudly makes the claim that her first vote in the state state of Alabama was a vote against George C. Wallace. Now this shift to the dark side way back in the dark days of the southern republican party was not as many would have you believe as support for southern apartheid or Jim Crow but the total polar opposite as my parents and others knew that the ways of the old south were either morally wrong or economically damaging to the region and that the true party of racism holding back the south was in fact the democratic party of old.
Sad to say but ultimately the call to switch was not made from the moral high ground of racial inequality fomented by the party of George Wallace but instead based purely upon the self serving interests of the pocketbook in the form of Bill Clinton's tax increases. Like you us southern republicans are pragmatists and we welcomed these new acolytes with open arms but all the while keeping a very wary eye on them. It's been nearly twenty years now but slowly but surely the weeding process has molded this conversion process by eliminating the weak and raising up the strong all the while knowing that it is the next generation raised up in the ways of the light that are the future. In short the yellow dogs have died off, the blue dogs were finally converted and will eventually be let out to pasture. If you take a look at the next generation, and us southerners measure time in generations, you can already see this happening.
Well I had hoped to address the other groups but I am out of time. Maybe this evening when I have more time I can sit down and ramble on some more.
In the meantime do a google search for the background history of the election of Alabama's first republican governor since reconstruction, Guy Hunt, in 1987. You won't find that the republican Guy Hunt, a small town primitive baptist preacher, led a massive grand sweep for the republican party but instead you will find that the democratic party got Mr Hunt elected. Two names you need to research, the republican cum democorat Charlie Graddick and the party faithful and Wallace protege Bill Baxley. If you follow that study to it's sad conclusion you will see that Alabama politics as played by the democratic side is a knife fight of the worst sort.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 12:03:57 pm
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1112/religion-vote-2008-election (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1112/religion-vote-2008-election)

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/atlas_2008.pdf (http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/atlas_2008.pdf)

Quote
The "Black Vote" doesn't all go for one side or the other

please point out the word all in my post.

Quote
n Southern area's the black vote probably leans more heavily Democrat due to a culture of going against the establishment and in those areas the establishment is Largely Republican

wrong.  they lean democrat because they have bought into the "we'll help you" and the rewrite of history.  tell a lie often enough....

Quote
I don't know where you are getting your Catholic leanings from, I have worked for Catholic Hospitals, I live in a Catholic area and most Catholics I know are Republican or Independent. Some of my closest friends are Catholic and they typically are in opposition of my views.

of course they are in opposition to your views.  they are ideologically conservative...but that's not how they tend to vote.

http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted.aspx (http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted.aspx)

David, i'll give you that since you are from the south.  ;)  i do see some changes with the elections of republican governors and an influx of industry into the south.  hard to argue against success.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 12:30:38 pm
The pew research article you sourced has a graph about halfway down the page; It shows weekly attending White Catholics leaning heavily Republican. Why they even poll non-attending "Catholics" I have no idea.. probably because people when asked about religion don't like to say they are unaffiliated so they throw out the name that comes to mind first..CATHOLIC. Yeah that group leans Democrat... But if we count that group as Catholic than I am a freaken Mennonite.. even though I haven't been to a Mennonite church in 25 years.

So like I said; you made some gross generalization.   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 12:51:28 pm

Quote
The "Black Vote" doesn't all go for one side or the other

please point out the word all in my post.


blacks, for instance, tend to be socially conservative yet they vote democrat

You used the word "they" implying them as a group. You didn't say they tend too, or they lean... you said they.

As far as the re-write of history... I guess you are referring to Lincoln being a Republican, Nixon a Republican Bull Connor a Democrat etc.
The Parties have changed greatly since then. There hasn't been any re-writing of history. You can google any of those people and see what party they were affiliated with, and what they did for the black community... North Korea re-writes history... That is not what has happened here.

Like I said before; our vote is an individual choice and we have the right to cast how we want. How you feel about the way any "group" votes, or why "they" vote that way doesn't advance your argument at all... because it is their vote, they can do what they like with it. "They" earned that vote with sweat and blood.

  
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 01:27:34 pm
Quote
The Parties have changed greatly since then.

the only way they have changed is that the democrats discovered they needed the minority vote..with Kennedy and then Johnson,  they started to promise them "stuff".  Kennedy voted against civil rights legislation but because daddy had to buy the first election he knew he needed the black vote to get the 2nd.  + i do think he had a bit of a change of heart after talking with MLK (a republican).     it was the republicans who consistently voted for civil rights legislation.  it was a republican president, Ike,  who first proposed it. 

so yes, there have been changes.  democrats found out that if you make a population dependent, and you promise them more crap, you can keep them voting for you.  that is recent history for someone my age.   :-D

Quote
and what they did for the black community

yes...what they did for them....or maybe what they did TO them.


Quote
Like I said before; our vote is an individual choice and we have the right to cast how we want. How you feel about the way any "group" votes, or why "they" vote that way doesn't advance your argument at all... because it is their vote, they can do what they like with it. "They" earned that vote with sweat and blood.

i believe it was an observation, but whatever....you are getting into the weeds and i'm not sure i'm getting your point.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 01:32:25 pm
BTW...sorry i left out the word tend, but if this is accurate, it was not really required, was it?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Boom Buzz on August 16, 2012, 01:41:27 pm


 
Quote
What it comes down to is that we each have our one vote... It is our choice to cast that vote the direction we think is best... Brainwashed by media or not... It is our vote and nobody has the right to question that vote. 
This is the scary but true part.  As long as your legal to vote, you get to vote.  Regardless of whether your ideology is grounded in truth or facts or media manipulation or out and out lies.  The problem is many people don't have time or care to determine what is true or not.  In fact, "their" truth is whatever supports their ideology and desires.


In another thread Iddee worte the following...
Quote
In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior: "A democracy is always
temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority
always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from
the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a
dictatorship."

The politicians know this.  So this is how they play the game.  On both sides of the aisle.  Promise them stuff and buy their vote.  The media knows this too.  Scare the pudding out of the people by saying the other party will take away your stuff.  Or fill their heads with dirty fluff about the other party so the people won't dwell on the stuff that matters - like jobs, leadership, REAL healthcare reform, tort reform, stopping the flow of illegals, etc.

The democrats are the party of promising benefits for votes, and the party of loose fiscal policy!  Unfortunately, many politicians in the GOP look exactly like democrats.  Unfortunately Tylers description is playing out right before our eyes and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 01:54:51 pm
Quote
Unfortunately, many politicians in the GOP look exactly like democrats.

yup and a good many of them need to go home along with the dems.  a clean house is a happy house  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Keith13 on August 16, 2012, 02:15:23 pm
The Obama camp will not touch it, they have more integrity than that...

HA HA thanks for the laugh I spit food on my computer with that one

LOL integrity and obama

LOL

Keith
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Boom Buzz on August 16, 2012, 02:27:07 pm
A wise dude once said...

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville


“Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 02:59:45 pm
My take on this election is this.
There are going to be a lot of Conservatives who will be very disappointed if Romney looses, and a lot who will be very disappointed if he wins.

He is talking a talk that doesn't match his past actions. You don't trust a thief with your valuables, even if they tell you they are anti stealing.
There is nothing fiscally conservative about the guy, his views on Healthcare reform also match Obama's, only he tries and makes an argument that they are different. He talks about cutting taxes, but raised the heck out of them in MA and called it fees. When you milk legal gun owners for 10 million dollars by raising the cost of a license to own that gun... that is a tax, not a fee. A fee covers filing and such... that money was diverted to the general fund. That is a tax.

I love this video:
 Romney- I Brought In Record Federal Dollars for the Olympics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09rG3OBqY-g#)

And his part in this one:
John McCain on the 2002 Winter Olympics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZsA0AOwGD0#ws)

Yes he has the skills to get us out of our financial ditch, he saved MA, he Saved the Olympics. He closed huge budget gaps. He did that by collecting tax dollars from every source he could... So how exactly is he going to use that experience to pull the country out of the rut we are in? His experience is limited to taxing gaps closed. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 03:03:39 pm
The Obama camp will not touch it, they have more integrity than that...

HA HA thanks for the laugh I spit food on my computer with that one

LOL integrity and obama

LOL

Keith
The day you hear Obama camp mention his religion in an ad... you send me a PM ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 03:08:45 pm
bluegrass, most of us who are conservative have already stipulated that he's not as conservative as we'd like.  should we then vote for obama?  many made the mistake of not voting for mccain, and i understand that.  they realize now that even a bad mccain would have (probably) been better than what we go.  i don't think you'll see that mistake again.

i also don't think you'll see so many turn out for obama again.  he's managed to disappoint almost every segment of his constituency except illegals and gays.  could be wrong, but i don't think there are enough of either voting to make up the difference.  my liberal black friends are very disappointed and in part because of obama pandering to the gay and illegal vote.  

and no, i'm not making a mistake when i talk about the illegal vote.  there is a reason the justice dept is trying to block every voter id check law.  
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 03:25:37 pm
I don't see either candidate as a change from anything. We can keep a lame duck Obama for 4 more years and not pay his Presidential pension on top of Romney's salary. That is about the best budget cut I see in this election. Put Romney in and he will likely cost us trillions in his first two years just like Obama did.

He wants to start by getting rid of a piece of legislation that cost millions to draft and implement over the course of nearly a year. He either wants to do nothing as far as replacement goes and just let the Healthcare industry go belly up, or he wants to draft something new and spend all that money over again... we can't be sure because he hasn't really outlined any plan on that.
And he wants to do all that because the public have been told that this piece of legislation is going to cost them big time... But it hasn't been implemented yet so how do they know what it will cost? I work in healthcare and our hospital has been working for over a year to get so that they are in compliance with the law when it's provisions start taking effect... It has cost us millions of dollars in preparation. Other hospitals are also prepping and spending the same money.  So all that money will be thrown out as well because they prepped for something that didn't happen. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Boom Buzz on August 16, 2012, 04:23:22 pm
Quote
The day you hear Obama camp mention his religion in an ad... you send me a PM

This is political mine field for Obama.  He has sent mixed messages on his own faith, claiming to be a Christian, yet seeming more focused on appeasing Muslims.  The only real evidence of him being a Christian is having attended the Reverend Wright's church and his claim to be a Christian.  But his actions tell a different story...hosting Iftar dinners, acknowledging Ramadan, observing Islamic prayer day, and being inclusive of all faiths on national day of prayer (which is good), while remaining aloof with respect to his own Christian faith.  If he tries to make an issue with Romney's Mormon faith his own beliefs and actions will be put under the magnifying glass.  I don't think he wants this and he and his handlers are smart enough to avoid it...
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 04:47:10 pm
He has also observed Passover... maybe he is a Muschrijew :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on August 16, 2012, 06:21:48 pm
Maybe he's an atheist and tries to play the people for fools. He's done a great job at that thus far.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 16, 2012, 06:37:41 pm
Put Romney in and he will likely cost us trillions in his first two years just like Obama did.  
You are correct Blluegrass!  Romney’s spending will make Obama’s spending look like skid row.  The Republican’s always outspend the Dems AFTER they get elected.  Heck, ole’ Newt proposed building a trillion dollar manned moon base just a few months ago.  The spending NEVER stops with them and the ideas are almost always crazy.  A moon base folks!  Of all our problems, and they come up with a manned moon base :?

I will agree with the consensus that Ryan was a good choice for Mitt.  It shows he’s not going to pander to this or that group just to collect some votes.  Kudo’s to Mitt for picking somebody with a brain.  I would agree with Ryan that we can’t tax our way out of this debt mess, but there is little evidence that cutting our way out (during a recession) is going to work either.  Take a look at Europe; pure austerity is not working; it shrinks economic growth even more. 

I’m certainly in favor of massive cuts, but it will never happen, no matter which party is in charge:  Again history proves this fact.  So given reality, Obama is still the best man for the job.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 16, 2012, 08:28:37 pm
I'm assuming the money we just spent going to Mars was ok?
With only the Russians and Chinese in near earth orbit,we do have a national security risk.
The only reason Clintons did not spend through the roof is because the Republican Congress(Newt at that) dragged him kicking and screaming to a balnaced budget. You need to look at who was in charge of Congress when the blowout spending took place. The largest ever deficit increases were under the care of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid with a willing pen in the White House willing to sign any thing that crossed his desk when the Dems had both houses.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 09:08:29 pm
Quote
Take a look at Europe; pure austerity is not working; it shrinks economic growth even more.

probably can't use that as an example.  they never achieved it because the labor force threw a fit.  + they have even more entitlement programs than we do and once you have them in place they are pretty hard to cut....as we are seeing. 

my sister told me something about the elections in england.  their NHS is a mess and extremely expensive.  every election is, in part, about the NHS, but never about cutting it, having people pay for it, etc.  not long ago the suggestion was made that people pay a couple of pounds for office visits.  because care is "free" it's very much abused.  the though was that if people had to pay just a little, they might not run in with every snotty nose.  no joy.  the people had a cow because if they had to pay it wouldn't be free and free is what they were promised.

true austerity in government spending doesn't shrink economic growth.  since the government takes money out of the private sector to spend, less spending by the government is good for private sector health. 

funding and legislating are the two main powers of the congress.   a president may wish to do many things, but he must have funding.  one of the ways that obama has been able to get around the legislative part and do things by edict is that congress is funding the departments that obama is using to push his agendas.  this is one of the reasons the dems have not done a budget in 3 + years.  people don't pay much attention to continuing resolutions for funding, but if they saw what was being spent, and why, in the budget that is legally required BTW, they could see what's being spent and on what.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: David McLeod on August 16, 2012, 09:25:55 pm
Well, time for more rambling.
First let me comment on the catholics and jews. As I am neither I can only make suppositions based solely upon my interactions with individuals from both groups. If I am wrong and offend please let me apologize up front as I have nothing but respect for both. I will also openly state my own preconceived biases based upon my own southern and Southern Baptist upraising. First on the catholics, as a southerner most catholics I have known are either recent imports from points north and as a southerner those folks "not from around here" are viewed as strange to begin with. I also have lots of experience with many southern catholics of both roman and orthodox persuasions as the Birmingham area was the recipient of many Slovakian and Silesian (Poland) emigrees to work the coal mines and stell industry, btw this is also why alot of those other catholics came down from the union I mean northern states. Next as a Southern Baptist the jewish people are held in very high regard and even though we had very little interaction the children of Israel are the chosen people and God's own. To go against them is to go against God Himself.
Again JMO but the catholics I know are all of a very decent sort and by and large are what I would consider to be of the same mindset as myself and conservative to very conservative in their personal and public lives. For that matter almost every one other than some real freaks that I have found in the big cities like Atlanta here when confronted with basic life decisions will respond as a conservative. The thing that I, from the outside, see in catholics is a group think mentality. Not that they are robots but from birth they are raised to accept that the teachings of the holy father and by extension the church itself as completely infallible. Not that this as a tenet of faith is a bad thing, I myself have but one infallibity that I adhere to and that is that the Holy Bible is the unadulterated truth of God and it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I am to read and understand it. Now for the reason catholics have tended to vote for the democratic party, I see it as a combination of two things. First and foremost both the priesthood and monastic orders, possibly save the jesuits, have been infiltrated by socialists, perverts and other neer do wells. The laity trained to take all direction from the church are pawns in the hands of liberals. Now I do see some hope in the current pontiff's appointment of more conservative cardinals here in the US plus the vatican has been forced to clean house of alot of the perverts and their allies. This is reason for hope as well as the rank and file catholic being more willing to not take everything at face value. Combine this with Obama's assault on conscience in the mandates in the healthcare bill and the resultant opposition from the church and the old lock on their votes may be broken. Even if only half of the voting catholics come over then that is one voting block neutralized.
Now for a group I know even less of personally the jewish voters. Again from the outside looking in. I see two types of jewish people. Those that remember the greatest tragedy of mankind's history, the pogroms up to and including the halocaust and mean it when they say NEVER AGAIN. These jews are Israelis and are over there fighting ever day for the right to live. The rest are american jews safe and comfortable behind the moat of oceans. This comfort has led to guilt which has led to massive charity campaigns, first to support the other kind of jew and second the rest of the suffering and depressed peoples of the world. Not that charity is a bad thing but it has led to the very thing that all leftist thinkers share, a self assured sense of superiority. Couple this with the known fact that the US was populated by jewish refugess from all parts of eastern europe to include portions of the former soviet union and many of these emigrees were and their descendants to this day are innoculated with the contagion of Marx. Now please do not take this as a blanket statement because it is not but speaks only to what I as an observer have seen of the portion of this population in places of importance. I speak more towards the Barbara Streisands than the Joe Greenbergs (he was the first jew I ever met in my small comunity when he bought the old Wallace's Barbecue joint, yes PORK barbecue is there any other).
Next I'll speak to the community I am far more familiar (literally) with and that is the black or african american community of the south. I am still to this day trying to puzzle out just how they went in less than a single generation from Selma and the schoolhouse door to full support of the party of George Wallace, so much so that the blacks of Alabama elected the little judge from Clio to his fourth term as Governor in 1983.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 09:44:45 pm
I'm assuming the money we just spent going to Mars was ok?
We didn't just spend that money. The MER program was started in 2003, There were 4 funding extensions from 2003 til 2007 and then a 5th in 2009.
I think to date we have spent 100 million on the mars rovers. But that is chunk change compared to the other missions we currently are funding.
Scroll.....
 http://www.nasa.gov/missions/current/index.html (http://www.nasa.gov/missions/current/index.html)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 09:45:34 pm
i think you got part of it with Catholics and Jews.  1st, i married into a catholic family.  they are all liberals.  i'll exclude my mother-in-law from my observations because she is the most obnoxiously racist person i have ever met!

the catholic, jewish, and we'll add muslim to this, are historically both religions and government.  in protestant christianity we are taught individual  responsibility.  we are responsible for our choices, our relationship with god, etc.  in these other churches, they are taught collectivism. the church/government is responsible for charity, for the disposition of the soul, for the behavior of the people. the church not only feeds the spiritual needs of the people, but rules what they do, what they eat, where they go, how they behave.  they are socialist institutions responsible for handing out charity collected from other members.  ...we could probably add mormons to that too....although for some reason they seem to usually be more politically conservative.  maybe because they have suffered the consequences of government misconduct...

for many of us, our earliest social experiences are in our religious organizations.  if your organization is basically a socialist organization, it's not hard to see how that might carry on in your later thinking.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 16, 2012, 09:53:10 pm
 ...we could probably add mormons to that too....although for some reason they seem to usually be more politically conservative.  maybe because they have suffered the consequences of government misconduct...


In what sense? The Utah war where the Government had to step in because they Massacred 120 men woman and children at Mountain Meadow? The Government stepping in because of "Blood atonement" Practices? Stepping in because some sects force underage girls into sexual relationships with much older men? 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: David McLeod on August 16, 2012, 10:02:54 pm
Kathy, as a southern baptist the independance of the individual believer to understand scripture as led by the Holy Spirit is the core belief of the of the southern baptist convention and the principle extends in every detail of church administration from the autonomy of the local congregation right up to affiliation with the convention itself. I guess I had no choice in the matter then LOL. Just as in matters of theology I hold my own and other's individual sovereignity to be most precious and dear and worth facing all the torment's of hell to preserve. This is why the obamanation in the white house must go and we so desperately need to restore the Republic to it's foundation principles.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 17, 2012, 01:00:05 am
Quote
In what sense? The Utah war where the Government had to step in because they Massacred 120 men woman and children at Mountain Meadow? The Government stepping in because of "Blood atonement" Practices? Stepping in because some sects force underage girls into sexual relationships with much older men?

no, making it a condition of acceptance into the US that they give up a religious practice, polygamy.  i'll give you that the Mormons have done some bad things in the past.  so have a lot of other groups.  how far back do we go to hold the current people accountable for the long past?

it's like reparations for slavery.  probably not one of us who couldn't find kin held slave by someone if we could go far enough back.  at some point, get over it.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Atri on August 17, 2012, 01:16:55 am
Get ready for another four years with OBAMA ,VP pretty boy doesn't fit.....big mistake for Romney .He'll go down the drain...sorry get ready for 2016 maybe.....
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 17, 2012, 07:17:30 am

it's like reparations for slavery.  probably not one of us who couldn't find kin held slave by someone if we could go far enough back.  at some point, get over it.

Many of us are descendant from poor Immigrants and Quakers so there are probably plenty around who's family tree does not lead to slave holdings. The majority of Immigrants into this country came right about the time and after Slavery ended.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 17, 2012, 07:31:23 am
Quote
In what sense? The Utah war where the Government had to step in because they Massacred 120 men woman and children at Mountain Meadow? The Government stepping in because of "Blood atonement" Practices? Stepping in because some sects force underage girls into sexual relationships with much older men?

no, making it a condition of acceptance into the US that they give up a religious practice, polygamy. 

I can tell you the real reason the church has given up Polygamy and it has nothing to do with the Government. Their Profit Joseph Smith led the Mormons out of Sharon VT and into NY where he translated the the gold tablets into the Book of Mormon. His wife and followers at that time caught him with another woman and he wrote polygamy into the book of Mormon as the will of God. That is written into church history and it is why the Main LDS church quit practicing and broke into sects. 

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 17, 2012, 11:04:02 am
Quote
Get ready for another four years with OBAMA ,VP pretty boy doesn't fit.....big mistake for Romney .He'll go down the drain...sorry get ready for 2016 maybe.....

bummer  :'(  guess we should quit now.  i had such high hopes....

blue, i was talking about being able to trace slavery of our ancestors though all of history.  how many of our kin from europe might have been slaves of the romans?  my family didn't come here until after slavery was well over.  i don't owe anyone anything.  neither does anyone else.  if folks want to wallow in the past, they should be left to it.

i'm not a big mormon fan.  i have my own history with some of them and it's not pleasant.  that said...given what we are up against in this country right now, it may be that romney is a happy choice. 
he has the business background to grasp the budgeting problems.  he has the reorganization background to understand how to fix things. neither he, nor ryan, care if they are loved and that might be the most important thing.

romney was not my choice, but he just showed me the most important ability for a leader.  identify and hire the best people for the job ahead.  no leader can know or do anything.  they can find people who do know stuff. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on August 17, 2012, 12:31:14 pm
Quote from: kathyp on August 16, 2012, 08:45:34 PM
 ...we could probably add mormons to that too....although for some reason they seem to usually be more politically conservative.  maybe because they have suffered the consequences of government misconduct...

Quote from: Bluegrass
In what sense? The Utah war where the Government had to step in because they Massacred 120 men woman and children at Mountain Meadow? The Government stepping in because of "Blood atonement" Practices? Stepping in because some sects force underage girls into sexual relationships with much older men?  


No, as one of the most tortured religious groups ever in the ""FREE??"" US of A.


""As the Latter-day Saints fled Missouri during the winter of 1838–1839, having been threatened by the governor of that state with extermination, they crossed into Illinois and settled in a swampy area along the Mississippi River that they named Nauvoo""


http://www.lds.org/gospellibrary/pioneer/02_Nauvoo.html (http://www.lds.org/gospellibrary/pioneer/02_Nauvoo.html)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on August 17, 2012, 01:53:28 pm
I don't see either candidate as a change from anything. We can keep a lame duck Obama for 4 more years and not pay his Presidential pension on top of Romney's salary. That is about the best budget cut I see in this election. Put Romney in and he will likely cost us trillions in his first two years just like Obama did.

He wants to start by getting rid of a piece of legislation that cost millions to draft and implement over the course of nearly a year. He either wants to do nothing as far as replacement goes and just let the Healthcare industry go belly up, or he wants to draft something new and spend all that money over again... we can't be sure because he hasn't really outlined any plan on that.
And he wants to do all that because the public have been told that this piece of legislation is going to cost them big time... But it hasn't been implemented yet so how do they know what it will cost? I work in healthcare and our hospital has been working for over a year to get so that they are in compliance with the law when it's provisions start taking effect... It has cost us millions of dollars in preparation. Other hospitals are also prepping and spending the same money.  So all that money will be thrown out as well because they prepped for something that didn't happen. 
You have to implement the healthcare law to see if it is good???? You have been listening to Nancy. :roll: Many intelligent people have studied that healthcare law and know it is a disaster waiting to happen. There is an old saying don't throw GOOD money after BAD. The money that you speak of is wasted already. If the thing had been designed to actually help with healthcare it might be different but it was set up so the government can control all of our lives not just our health. It also adds a bunch of new taxes to everyone. The Supreme Court ruled that it is a tax.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 17, 2012, 03:12:44 pm
Quote
You have to implement the healthcare law to see if it is good? You have been listening to Nancy.
LOL, this is what YOUR candidate did long before Obama came along!

Quote
Many intelligent people have studied that healthcare law and know it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Let’s have some names to back this assertion up

Quote
it was set up so the government can control all of our lives not just our health.
Get us a page number of the Law that says “ye shall control the people’s lives, not just their health”.

Quote
It also adds a bunch of new taxes to everyone.
OK, I’ll grant you that one
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 17, 2012, 03:16:17 pm
No, as one of the most tortured religious groups ever in the ""FREE??"" US of A.
Even in a free society, there are rules of conduct.

What is the difference between a cult and a religion again?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 17, 2012, 04:01:00 pm
a cult is generally recognized to have a leader who is absolute, and writings followed outside the accepted scriptures.  that's pretty broad, but a way to evaluate the difference between a cult and mainstream religion.

here is the problem:  the definition of a cult would include Catholicism, Scientology, Mormonism, etc.  so, in the absences of a way to objectively differentiate, it's better to leave all alone as long if they are not endangering children, killing their own,  or endangering the general population.  

we have to evaluate them in the context of what they are currently doing, not what they have done before.  if we use history, we'd have to indict the catholic church as historically one of the most murderous cults, and islam as currently one of the most murderous cults.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 17, 2012, 05:08:28 pm
Quote
Get us a page number of the Law that says “ye shall control the people’s lives, not just their health”.

if you control peoples  health care, what do you not control in their lives?

you should read the thing.  it's over 2000 pages with much of it TBD.  we still don't know what all it will say when they are done with it.  what we do know is that with each passing addition, the cost goes up.  cost to individuals, cost to the health care industry, cost to the insurance industry, and cost to the government...which all translates into cost to the individual. 

what happens when you have a huge program, supported by a huge bureaucracy, with ever increasing costs and a declining % of the population paying into it?  you end up with programs like medicare and SSI, going broke and no one with the guts to fix them. with medicine, it will be worse than going broke.  we can see what has happened in other countries.  rationed care.  degrading facilities.  fewer people choosing the career and those who do may be of lesser quality.  far fewer people going into specialties.  all the associated businesses cutting back.   with the new fees on  medical equipment manufacturers and the new taxes on pharmaceutical companies, i think we'll see much of this faster than i had originally anticipated.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 17, 2012, 08:11:43 pm

you should read the thing.  it's over 2000 pages with much of it TBD.  we still don't know what all it will say when they are done with it.  what we do know is that with each passing addition, the cost goes up.  cost to individuals, cost to the health care industry, cost to the insurance industry, and cost to the government...which all translates into cost to the individual. 

Lets talk about re-writing history again!

"obamacare"is otherwise known as HR 3590 and is exactly 899 pages long.. You could read the whole thing in two days tops. The drafts were 1000s of pages long but drafts are just that. Drafts; stuff gets cut and cropped until they have a final product.


Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 17, 2012, 08:47:05 pm
Now let me outline a few of it's provisions. Hospitals hate some of these, but because we are trying to get into compliance we have started implementing the provisions on ourselves ahead of time.

The old system we got paid for every test, medication, band-aid that we used to treat a patient regardless of diagnosis. The more we used and billed for, the more we got paid.

Under Obamacare we get paid based on the diagnosis. So if we admit a person for a stroke we get paid a lump sum of money to treat that patient based on an average of what it cost nationally to treat a stroke patient. So the more resources we use, the less we make... But then there is a second twist. That lump sum goes into a national pool and we only get a % of it biased on a patient satisfaction survey that the dept of health will be administering.

So for example: say the cost to treat a stroke is 10.00 and that is what every hospital in the country gets paid to treat it. But my hospital has a patient satisfaction score of 60%, we only get 6.00 of that 10.00. The remaining 4% stays in the pool and we lost that money. (one of the provisions hospitals hate.)

The old way we admitted everybody who told a Doctor that they wanted to be admitted... So Grandma gets a headache and comes to the ED. The Dr asks if she is dizzy, she reply "well may be a little". She has two signs of a stroke... So we do a head CT, MRI, EKG, ECHO, and Carotid duplex study and admit her for a stroke. The next day the Neurologist comes in, looks at those results and says, not a stroke, send her home. We bill for all those tests and get paid.

Under the new System Third party audits will be done. Every Patient we admit with an inappropriate diagnosis we don't get paid for anything. So now we have to do a better job of assessing patients and assigning appropriate diagnosis's. It will no longer be enough to have an MD's reasonable assumption of Diagnosis.

In the past year we have been operating under an assumption that the law applies now. We have an outside company surveying our patients using a similar tool to what the Gov will be using. We have increased our score from 68 to about 77, so we still have a long way to go. We have also been penalizing the admitting MDs and self auditing our diagnosis. The Unit I work on has 31 beds and we went from being full almost all the time with patients waiting on other units for a bed to open up, to having 4-5 empty beds all the time and seriously having to look at staffing.    

So it is a very real possibility that we could see a huge decrease in healthcare demand and I could loose my job. But I am still willing to give it a chance. Probably some hospitals will completely go under, other's will do well. We could end up without any private for profit hospitals and all hospitals become local city run like the Hospitals in NYC. That would be a bad situation and could happen. But that would also eliminate the need for Medicare and Medicaid.

It could be a good thing that rains in healthcare costs, it could bankrupt hospitals. We will not know until we are there.    
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 17, 2012, 09:28:37 pm
so they changed the font.

http://nation.foxnews.com/obamacare/2012/02/29/obamacare-regulations-two-and-half-times-long-bible (http://nation.foxnews.com/obamacare/2012/02/29/obamacare-regulations-two-and-half-times-long-bible)

here is the word count which i don't think includes the constant edicts coming from HHS.

Quote
Under the new System Third party audits will be done. Every Patient we admit with an inappropriate diagnosis we don't get paid for anything. So now we have to do a better job of assessing patients and assigning appropriate diagnosis's. It will no longer be enough to have an MD's reasonable assumption of Diagnosis.

this is a problem with the way health care is now but it's not about what the hospitals may or may not get paid for.  if grandma comes in dizzy and with a headache and the tests are not done, and she is sent home only to come back in having had a stroke, the hospital is sued for millions of dollars.  tort reform would take care of much of the problem, but the trial lawyers have a strong lobby and have opposed it every time.  some states have been successful in capping compensation, but many have not....or have not tried.

the problem with obama care is that it punished doctors and hospitals for doing what they consider necessary.  it's already a problem with medicare and this will be passed on to all of us.  there is a balance but it won't be found with the government, anymore than it is found with the courts.

Quote
Under the new System Third party audits will be done

an unelected and unaccountable, except to the government,  3rd party. you want to put your trust in them rather than your doctor?

Quote
In the past year we have been operating under an assumption that the law applies now. We have an outside company surveying our patients using a similar tool to what the Gov will be using. We have increased our score from 68 to about 77, so we still have a long way to go. We have also been penalizing the admitting MDs and self auditing our diagnosis. The Unit I work on has 31 beds and we went from being full almost all the time with patients waiting on other units for a bed to open up, to having 4-5 empty beds all the time and seriously having to look at staffing.   


wasn't this the constant complaint against HMOs?  cost before care?  it's already putting a big burden on providers with all the "free" stuff that was up front. this is by design, both to make it more palatable to the public and to start jacking up insurance rates so that people/business can no longer afford to pay for insurance.

Quote
We will not know until we are there.

but we do know because we can see how it has worked in other countries.  we don't need to wait and see.
as for getting rid of medicare and medicaid, i think that is the goal.  they will be rolled into the exchanges at government expense.  in the mean time, because so many will end up on the government approved exchanges due to the cost to business, the left will essentially have achieved their goal of single payer.  private insurance will be so prohibitively expensive people will have no choice but to turn to government programs.

a better solution, and one that clinics and urgent care facilities are using with success, is to go back to a cash for care system.  people will shop for services and get the best deal.  in this, those places not able to provide services at a good value will also go under and those left will compete for patients.  competition makes cost go down and quality go up.  people can still buy insurance, but most will find that when they are younger and healthy, it's far cheaper to pay for what you  use, than to pay for the guy down the streets viagra.
of course, americans would have to stop expecting that health care insurance is a a right of employment......



 



Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 17, 2012, 09:55:59 pm
If you are going to use a page number to boost your position, don't discredit a page number when somebody shows you your error. Also don't rely on a Media outlet for your source. You can go straight to the bill and look at the font for yourself, it is public record and googling HR 3590 will give you a full text version to inspect.

I tried to find out how long Romneycare is. The first section passed is chapter 58 of the 2006 mass law. It is 70 pages long. Not to bad, but then I realized that it was spread out through multiple chapters including 111, 148, 224, 232, and 461 and if each section is about the same length as the first...   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 18, 2012, 12:04:23 am
ok, i will stipulate that the obama care bill, only partially written, is however long you wish it to be.

you are missing the point, which may be intentional?

even if it were only 400 pages, we started a whole country with a total of 6 pages.  ok, so they were big pieces of paper and the folks might have had small handwriting....

400, or 4000, it creates a huge bureaucracy with many of the rules not yet written. for all the 100's of pages, we still don't know what we have, but as much as we know, is bad.

i really don't care how long romney care is.  just as i don't care if VT has gay marriage, or CO won't let you collect rain water.  these are the things that belong to the states.  if they want to try something, it's up to them.  these are not things that belong to the federal government and should be forced on the entire population. 

BTW blue, i have read it.  have you? 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 18, 2012, 12:07:47 am
i have a question though.  did the word count change or only the page count?   ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on August 18, 2012, 12:09:47 am
... probably not one of us who couldn't find kin held slave by someone if we could go far enough back.  at some point, get over it.

I agree but what so many of us forget or were never taught in school is that the first foreign war America fought was against a power collectively known as the Barbary Pirates.  The "...Halls of Tripoli" in the Marine Corps hymn refers to the Berber peoples of North Africa who inhabited and ruled Tripoli.  Don't forget that the Barbary Pirates raided South along the Atlantic Coasts of Africa and as far west as South America, while raiding as far North as Iceland, and Ireland.

Also don't forget that the Berber City State of Tripoli was the terror of the Mediterranean world.  The Berbers were the slave suppliers to the Sultans of the Ottoman Empire and the Barbary Pirates regarded all of the Mediterranean basin as their hunting grounds and as much of the rest of the world as they could sail to and return from at a profit.  They also regarded the non Muslim peoples of Africa as their God given prey.  

Never forgetting the teachings of Nicole Machiavelli, the European Powers paid the Barbary Pirates to enforce exclusive trading zones that each of the major European powers sought to secure for their merchants sole benefit.  This brought the Berbers into conflict with a new nation called The United States of America.  We insisted on all nations having free passage of all the oceans and seas.  The new nation of America also had a bad case of an old Italian Social Disease called, My-Funds-are-Low.  We could not afford the yearly expense of buying off the Berbers with tribute.  When the Berbers violated the spirit of a treaty first negotiated by President George Washington the stage was set for conflict.  Think of the Berbers like they were from today’s Somalia only they had a bigger army and navy that was better equipped than our own.

Like Bluegrass said, I don't care which, what, or the other religion, cult, or true path you follow or that your ancestors belonged to, there is not a single human on the face of the Earth who can not find a chattel slave somewhere in their family's background.  Like wise there is not a single human on Earth who can not also find a chattel slave owner hiding somewhere in the same family tree.  It could even be the same individual.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on August 18, 2012, 12:59:31 am
BTW blue, i have read it.  have you? 
Yet you don't know how many pages long it was  :?

As a mere mortal, it is ok to admit when one makes a mistake  :)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 18, 2012, 06:44:17 am
i have a question though.  did the word count change or only the page count?   ;)

The Fox link you sourced states in the very firrt paragraph, we calculate obamacare regulations...." Suggesting they didn't read it either. But after reading through that I now know what they are doing.

They are calculating the word count of the "related bills" as part of the word count of "obamacare"

Lets take a look at the title of some of the "related bills"
HR 1203 OFFICIAL TITLE AS INTRODUCED:
Providing for consideration of the Senate amendments to the bill (H.R. 3590) to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify the first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees, and for other purposes, and providing for consideration of the bill (H.R. 4872) to provide for reconciliation pursuant to section 202 of the concurrent resolution on the budget for fiscal year 2010.

That one is an amendment to a bill passed by Reagan. Now we count the whole bill as obamacare?

HR 4872: Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 to modify higher education assistance provisions. (that one doesn't apply to most Americans, only college students) Stamp it Obamacare.

HR 3790: Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (that one only applies to service people and their housing benefit) Stamp that one Obama Care.

S 1790:  Indian Health Care Improvement Reauthorization and Extension Act of 2009 (only applies to native people) stamp that one "obamacare"

There are only a handful of related bills they could count so they must have counted the related bills of the related bills as well.....

I somehow am not surprised very much that the person accusing others of re-writing history is now using revisions of reality to promote her own position.

And to answer your other question: I read large parts of the Drafts, but No I have not read the bill as it is passed. My opinion of it doesn't change the fact that the court upheld in and found it Constitutionally binding. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 18, 2012, 06:58:14 am
Seeing as you appear to be unwilling to visit the Library of congress and check the page count your self. By accident I found a source while looking at the Romneycare law that gives the page count for the federal law. http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/subject/about/healthinsurance.html (http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/subject/about/healthinsurance.html)

Only they are generous and call it 900 pages, adding a page to it's length, but at least they didn't add 1100 pages.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 18, 2012, 11:56:44 am
Quote
Yet you don't know how many pages long it was

i have completely lost track of what this OP was about  :-D

if you read a book, do you look at the page count?  i don't.  it's not important.  it's a big book or not.

most of what comes out of government is to long and to complicated even for congress to understand.  i suspect that most of them don't read any of the bills, they read the summary and at best, have some aids skim though it.  it's probably one of the major reasons we get such crap from them with so many unintended consequences.

whatever the op was about, this has certainly been a lovely distraction.  guess if you can't argue on the merits, you argue on the margins.   ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 18, 2012, 06:01:37 pm
I don't buy into all the negativity about the Healthcare law. It is true it will cost some money...It's cost and where that money will come from is laid out right in the Bill. It is going to cost the healthcare industry a bunch of money implementing it. And the healthcare Industry has been dumping lots of money into shedding a negative light on the bill. The best option for them is to get it scrapped. The best way to do that is to turn the public against it.

That is why media sources like fox and other twist the truth... Like it's length, it's length has no bearing on anything, but they stretch that truth as far as possible in order to shed a negative light on it. Somebody lining their pockets don't want that law enacted.
Every major legislation in the history of this country meets opposition and doom day predictions... A generation later people think all that noise over it was silly.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 18, 2012, 06:22:34 pm
you do have a knack for getting hung up in minutia. 

i'm curious.  what is attractive to you about government control of health care?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 18, 2012, 08:22:43 pm
I see the current system bankrupting healthcare every single day... So I guess I am more open to see something new tried than the average person.

The Reality is that the Government has been running healthcare in this country since 1798 when Congress established the Federal Network of Hospitals. By the 1860s we had the predecessor to today's FDA. By the 1870s the Government was quarantining the sick for treatment.......

Government run Healthcare is a 200 year old institution in this country. Nothing new here.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 19, 2012, 03:14:02 pm
The number of pages in the bill is kind of irrelevant as a lot of things were left to be written by HHS(Health and Human Services) and the IRS will have to add a lot of pages to the tax code to punish citizens.And I can only see it as a growing monstrosity if the plug is not pulled.
 just look how many regulations the EPA has written(laws written on our behalf) which is probably unconstitutional in itself.
I do not like the idea of agencies(unaccountable people) being able to fill in the blanks on open ended laws.

But as far as a VP I think Ryan is far more intelligent than Biden. I think at this point Obama would rather have Hillary on the ticket,but I think she does not want on that sinking ship because this Presidents policies and record would do nothing to advance a second run for the White House for her.
 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 19, 2012, 03:19:15 pm
I think if Obama does manage to get re elected,you will see Hillary resign her post so as to distance herself from him to make a run in 2016.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: ApalacheeRiverFarms on August 20, 2012, 12:20:05 am
For someone that says page count doesn't matter, he sure is stuck on it...  Liberalism...  Argue about minutiae instead of the real issue.  Pander to the minorities, promise them the world, promise to make the rich white guys pay for it (since all the rich guys are white and republican of course), push programs that keep the welfare class dependent on welfare, and make sure they know they need to vote democrat or else lose their welfare because you know all us conservatives want to throw them all out in the cold if given the chance. I understand why they vote democrat... I don't understand why the rest of them would say Mitt flip flops yet are stupid enough to not see how Obama has lied about everything he has ever said... 

BTW... I love u KathyP lol. Tell it.
Georgia Republican... Real Georgians don't vote democrat anymore... Only the imports. The rest of us would like to see people get off their butts and look for a job.

Democrats say tax businesses... Theyre building a Caterpillar plant here and giving them tons of tax breaks and incentives... And it's bringing more businesses and people are building houses again...  everything is picking up. Wonder if we went the Obama route and asked them to pay more taxes if things would be the same...
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 20, 2012, 08:51:23 am
Article from End the American Dream I like 23,28 and 32.
Quote
What a depressing choice the American people are being presented with this year.  We are at a point in our history where we desperately need a change of direction in the White House, and we are guaranteed that we are not going to get it.  The Democrats are running the worst president in American history, and the Republicans are running a guy who is almost a carbon copy of him.  The fact that about half the country is still supporting Barack Obama shows how incredibly stupid and corrupt the American people have become.  No American should have ever cast a single vote for Barack Obama for any political office under any circumstances.  He should never have even been the assistant superintendent in charge of janitorial supplies, much less the president of the United States.  The truth is that Barack Obama has done such a horrible job that he should immediately resign along with his entire cabinet.  But instead of giving us a clear choice, the Republicans nominated the Republican that was running that was most similar to Barack Obama.  In fact, I don't think we have ever had two candidates for president that are so similar.  Yes, there are a few minor differences between them, but the truth is that we are heading into Obama's second term no matter which one of them gets elected.  The mainstream media makes it sound like Obama and Romney are bitter ideological rivals but that is a giant lie.  Yeah, they are slinging lots of mud at each other, but they both play for the same team and the losers are going to be the American people.

Republicans are being told that they have "no choice" but to vote for Romney because otherwise they will get another four years of Obama.

This "lesser of two evils" theme comes out every four years.  We are told that we "must" vote for a horrible candidate because the other guy is even worse.

Well, millions of Americans are getting sick of this routine.  Perhaps that is why it is being projected that as many as 90 million Americans of voting age will not vote this year.

Yes, Barack Obama has been so horrible as president that it is hard to put it into words.

But Mitt Romney would be just like Barack Obama.

Those that are dreaming of a major change in direction if Romney is elected are going to be bitterly, bitterly disappointed.

The following are 40 ways that Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are essentially the same candidate....

1. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both supported TARP.

2. Mitt Romney supported Barack Obama's "economic stimulus" packages.

3. Mitt Romney says that Barack Obama's bailout of the auto industry was actually his idea.

4. Neither candidate supports immediately balancing the federal budget.

5. They both believe in big government and they both have a track record of being big spenders while in office.

6. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both fully support the Federal Reserve.

7. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are both on record as saying that the president should not question the "independence" of the Federal Reserve.

8. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney have both said that Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke did a good job during the last financial crisis.

9. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both felt that Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke deserved to be renominated to a second term.

10. Both candidates oppose a full audit of the Federal Reserve.

11. Both candidates are on record as saying that U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has done a good job.

12. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney have both been big promoters of universal health care.

13. Mitt Romney was the one who developed the plan that Obamacare was later based upon.

14. Wall Street absolutely showers both candidates with campaign contributions.

15. Neither candidate wants to eliminate the income tax or the IRS.

16. Both candidates want to keep personal income tax rates at the exact same levels for the vast majority of Americans.

17. Both candidates are "open" to the idea of imposing a Value Added Tax on the American people.

18. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both believe that the TSA is doing a great job.

19. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both supported the NDAA.

20. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both supported the renewal of the Patriot Act.

21. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both believe that the federal government should be able to indefinitely detain American citizens that are considered to be terrorists.

22. Both candidates believe that American citizens suspected of being terrorists can be killed by the president without a trial.

23. Barack Obama has not closed Guantanamo Bay like he promised to do, and Mitt Romney actually wants to double the number of prisoners held there.

24. Both candidates support the practice of "extraordinary rendition".

25. They both support the job-killing "free trade" agenda of the global elite.

26. They both accuse each other of shipping jobs out of the country and both of them are right.

27. Both candidates are extremely soft on illegal immigration.

28. Neither candidate has any military experience.  This is the first time that this has happened in a U.S. election since 1944.

29. Both candidates earned a degree from Harvard University.

30. They both believe in the theory of man-made global warming.

31. Mitt Romney has said that he will support a "cap and trade" carbon tax scheme (like the one Barack Obama wants) as long as the entire globe goes along with it.

32. Both candidates have a very long record of supporting strict gun control measures.

33. Both candidates have been pro-abortion most of their careers.  Mitt Romney's "conversion" to the pro-life cause has been questioned by many.  In fact, Mitt Romney has made millions on Bain Capital's investment in a company called "Stericycle" that incinerates aborted babies collected from family planning clinics.

34. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both believe that the Boy Scout ban on openly gay troop leaders is wrong.

35. They both believe that a "two state solution" will bring lasting peace between the Palestinians and Israel.

36. Both candidates have a history of nominating extremely liberal judges.

37. Like Barack Obama, Mitt Romney also plans to add "signing statements" to bills when he signs them into law.

38. They both have a horrible record when it comes to job creation.

39. Both candidates believe that the president has the power to take the country to war without getting the approval of the U.S. Congress.

40. Both candidates plan to continue running up more government debt even though the U.S. government is already 16 trillion dollars in debt.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 20, 2012, 11:06:07 am
ARF, the tax breaks are far better "stimulus" to business than shoveling money at companies that fit your political/world view agenda.  just as business will look to other countries for more favorable conditions, they will look to other states for the same.  states should be competing for business.  it would be good for everyone.

to be fair, the page count thing was my fault.  i have been playing with liberals long enough to know that they will take anything and run with it rather than discuss the issue at hand.  my error for not checking the length of the bill when it finally passed.   ;)

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on August 20, 2012, 01:14:26 pm
I have to agree with most of it, so it just comes down to voting out the incumbent and hoping the new one gets the message. A few terms of that may wake up a few of the idiots.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 20, 2012, 03:43:48 pm

to be fair, the page count thing was my fault.  i have been playing with liberals long enough to know that they will take anything and run with it rather than discuss the issue at hand.  my error for not checking the length of the bill when it finally passed.   ;)

You actually just happened to hit on one of my pet peeves. I constantly hear "2000 pages long", "3000 pages and growing" as a reason that it is a "bad Bill" I don't have any problem with anybody viewing something in a negative light for one reason or another... But at least keep the accusations true.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 20, 2012, 04:38:41 pm
Quote
I constantly hear "2000 pages long", "3000 pages and growing" as a reason that it is a "bad Bill" I don't have any problem with anybody viewing something in a negative light for one reason or another... But at least keep the accusations true.

i think this is something you made up in your own head.  it's a bad bill because it's a bad bill.  it was an unread, and not understood by most who voted, because it was so long, complicated, and unfinished.

but hey, i can understand why you'd want to keep the focus on things like page counts....

and it is growing....
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 20, 2012, 05:27:38 pm
Nothing is bad because it is bad. There always is a reason it is bad... Eating under cooked meat is bad because it can contain Salmonella bacteria which can kill your Gut and require you poop in a bag. Swimming in stagnant water is bad because it can have high counts of E. Coli and can make you sick. Killing people is bad because people have a right to life. Driving drunk is bad because it can hurt innocent people. Tending bees without a veil can cost you an eyeball. etc, etc etc.

So what is bad about it now that we are both over the miss-information on the page count? 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 20, 2012, 06:17:57 pm
A bill that removes personal choice and takes away my freedom is bad.
Government expansion bills are bad.
Doing away with personal responsibility is bad.
When the IRS is involved with health care,it's bad.
The health care bill achieves all of the above.
It's bad.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 20, 2012, 06:47:25 pm
What personal choice does it take away? I work for X employer and as a benefit of that job I got Health Insurance through Blue Cross. If tomorrow they wanted to change my insurance provider they can without my consent. What kind of choice is quite my job or take what they decide?

I will give you Government Expansion though I disagree with that being a negative.

Nobody buys their own insurance unless they are self employed, so there is no Personal Responsibility. The lack there of is why we have so many hospitals operating in the red, providing services to the un-insured and never getting paid.

The IRS offers a $7000.00 deduction on your health care costs and they have been doing that for years. That is IRS involvement in healthcare and it is good for those who are able to take that deduction.

Rebuttal?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 20, 2012, 07:35:11 pm
They can force me to have health care. I will no longer to be able to just pay the doctor for my servoce3s if I want. I may not be able to choose my own doctor.

Health care has evolved from a "benefit" to a "right".
This takes away a business right to decide if they wish to provide health care as a benefit. For working couples,perhaps one of the earners would fore go the health insurance for more money in their paycheck.Especially if it a duplication because of joint coverage with a spouses policy.Government should not be in the health care business. Period.
If an employer is giving it as a benefit,they have the right to determine the provider. Just as you have the right to work some where else if the current employer does not suit your needs or pay what you wish to earn.
The deductibles should be gone too. It is social engineering via the tax code. Bring on the flat tax and get rid of deductibles and incentives.Get rid of EIC in the tax code(also called a gift to those that did not pay that in).
Send every one a tax bill for the year on September fifteenth and you will see a huge change in the political hierarchy.

Beware of a government that provides all you need,it is also capable of taking away all you have. It has happened before.
 
As you can guess,I am not a fan of womb to tomb care . It takes away from personal responsibility and creates a dependent society.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 20, 2012, 07:36:20 pm
Perhaps we should have the government take over our auto insurance ?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on August 20, 2012, 07:38:39 pm
as for 28 above,what military experience did Bill Clinton have. I think he was a draft dodger.
I question other "facts 'in that excerpt.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 20, 2012, 09:54:14 pm
i only have a couple of seconds and i hesitate to get into this with limited time, but i'll try to hit a couple of high points.

without exception, the liberals i know who think obama care is a good thing, also think it didn't go far enough.  even the president stated a few years ago that single payer was the ultimate goal.  to that end, obama care was fairly masterful.  it is designed to destroy private insurance and drive as many people into the government controlled exchanges as it can.   it almost immediately sets up a two tiered system where those who can afford insurance or to pay cash will still get what they want, and those who can't will get what the government gives them. 

there is no cost control in obama care except to set up the unaccountable efficacy panels.  this will further limit the choices and care given to those in the exchanges in the name of cost control.

at some point, it will become apparent that this two tiered system is not "fair", and  would work far better if everyone were in the exchanges.  the government could control all care, tax appropriately, and the selling point will be...once again... cost control.  then the exchanges go away because you don't need them anymore and the government controls all.

to pacify those who still want to pay for their own care and get better care, you can do as they have done in england.  you force everyone to pay for national health care but allow a few insurance companies to continue.  those insurance companies exist to keep those with money from rioting and so they are allowed to reject anyone they chose to reject.  for instance, in england you can by private health insurance and stay out of the NHS, but you can't get it if you have a pre-existing condition. as an example:  i know of a woman who struggles to pay for private insurance because breast cancer runs in her family.  because of the lack of care under NHS, she has watched family members die.   

or...they can chose to have no private insurance and we all get what the government gives us.

i go back to what i have seen in england because it is what i am familiar with and because they are the largest in population of the 1st world countries who have gone to a national health care system.  the standard of care for almost all diseases is many years behind ours.  neurology, diabetic care, etc are 20 to 40 years behind us.  hospitals are degrading for lack of money.  equipment is not updated and often is not available.  if you need a triple bypass because you have come in with a cardiac event, you can wait 6 months...sometimes in hospital, for that care. 

i have also worked on the candian border.  there we have a flood of patients coming in for tests and care they can't get, or get in a timely fashon.  we take care of their high risk pregnancies, neurology patients, joint replacements, etc. 

if this plan had been designed to insure people, they could simply insure them at a far lower cost and without the added bureaucracy. it was not.
in addition, it will not control cost.  just as throwing money at college students has not lowered college tuition, throwing free care/reduced cost care at people will not lower cost. this also will be used as an excuse for the government to step in.

then there is the other stuff like what people do with free stuff.  ever take care of medicare patients?  they abuse the system on a regular basis because it's FREE and as long as they don't have to pay for the missed appointments, or the snotty nose vist, what do they care?  consider the same attitude extended to an entire population in a generation or two.  this, again, is a problem that england faces.  they even run public service spots all the time begging people not to go to the doctor for every little thing.....

england has about 65 million people.  we have 300+ million people.  they have degraded their health care system in a couple of generations and created an institution that they can't afford, but can't get rid of.  wonder how long it will take us?

i agree with you that a large part of the problem is with the way we are insured.  it is the insurance itself and the idea that we have that someone else should pay for our care that is one of the major problems.  there are no market forces in medicine the way it is now.
consider something like laser eye surgery that is not covered by most insurance plans.  when it first came out, it was very expensive.  as more doctors entered the market and more people wanted it, the cost has come way down.  i remember when my BIL had his eyes done and it was over 10,000 dollars and he had to travel to have it done.  now, a few years later, i can have it done for 2,000 and have a choice of doctors in my own town to do it.  if we had market forces in all common procedures and test, with insurance for catastrophic illness, cost for everything would come down because patients would shop for what they needed, and they'd be informed.
if we had tort reform all those docs who will no longer do charity work, would be willing to consider it again. 

there are ways to fix the system....but fixing it was never the plan.



Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 20, 2012, 10:21:30 pm
as for 28 above,what military experience did Bill Clinton have. I think he was a draft dodger.
I question other "facts 'in that excerpt.

None; but George bush in 92 had military experience and in 96 Bob Dole had military experience. It is a 100% true statement. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on August 20, 2012, 10:33:55 pm

Health care has evolved from a "benefit" to a "right".
 
As you can guess,I am not a fan of womb to tomb care . It takes away from personal responsibility and creates a dependent society.

I don't know that I would say healthcare was ever a benefit. It used to be mandatory in many situations. i.e Mary Malone aka Typhoid Mary.
Look up Mental Institution; now largely a thing of the past, but had a long history of mandatory Health care for certain segments of the population.
Read the history of Ellis Island. There are a bunch of run down hospital buildings out there that provided millions with mandatory healthcare prior to acceptance into the USA. If I sit here long enough I could come up with dozens of examples. So the argument can be made that Healthcare went from Mandatory to a Right better than a benefit to a right.

Society in definition is a dependent situation... without dependence on each other there is no Society. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 20, 2012, 10:56:17 pm
Quote
Society in definition is a dependent situation... without dependence on each other there is no Society.

your society might be dependent.  and i would argue that there is a huge difference between being dependent on each other and being dependent on government.

you make points about situations where people were required to undergo care or testing.  again, huge difference between that and the entire population being dependent on the government for health care. 
Quote
I don't know that I would say healthcare was ever a benefit.

what do you call it when it is an expected part of your employment package?

i don't have a problem with states doing whatever they want to do about health care.  state mental institutions were a good thing.  state/county run charity hospitals were a good thing.  the people of the states have a much better time of it controlling health care, costs, etc. at the state level + if they really don't like what the state is doing, they can move.  to say that because a state has done a thing, it follows that the entire country should be forced to do the same is ridiculous.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on August 26, 2012, 07:12:17 pm

Article from End the American Dream I like 23,28 and 32.
Quote

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: gdoten on August 29, 2012, 09:06:36 pm
So I was just browsing PowerLine's posts for today, and came upon excerpts of the speech Paul Ryan is supposed to give at the R convention:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/08/paul-ryans-speech.php (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/08/paul-ryans-speech.php)

The second paragraph reads: "Obamacare comes to more than two thousand pages of rules, mandates, taxes, fees, and fines that have no place in a free country."

That page count made me think of this thread. So into Google I type "affordable healthcare act bill" and sure enough up pops a link to H.R. 3962 as the very first hit:



https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod=1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=affordable+healthcare+act+bill (https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod=1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=affordable+healthcare+act+bill)

I had read some of the bill back when it was passed but figured I'd better download a fresh copy. This puppy is 1,990 pages in length. Not 400; not 899; 1,990! In my book, that's close enough to round to "two-thousand pages". With Ryan stating "... comes to more than ..." I suspect he is talking about not just the bill itself, which is indeed "two-thousand pages," but to the additional verbiage for the mandates, taxes, etc., that he mentions.

Copying the text from Adobe Acrobat then pasting it into Microsoft Word tells me that the document is 445,264 words. Probably a better metric than page count anyhow. Guess those half a million words were too much for Pelosi. Though I'm pretty sure I could not read this bill in two days and have a full understanding of it. I devour 1,000 page technical computer books on a regular basis, but could not grok everything in the bill in under a week. The language is just too foreign. But then I'm not paid to understand such language. Even the Supremes wouldn't read the entire bill (can't say that I blame them).

What could possibly go wrong with a brand new Federal bureaucracy being formed out of such a massive document? And you know that's just the beginning of the rules and regulations.

Bluegrass, where did you get your copy of the bill's PDF? Where do you get "... HR 3590 [and] is exactly 899 pages long"? My copy came from house.gov.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on August 29, 2012, 09:49:22 pm
you can't read it an understand it no matter how much time you have.  1st, it reffers to so many other regulations that you would spend your life looking all of them up.  2nd, it has so much TBD that there is no way to get a full reading of the impact.  we still do not know what is coming because HHS is still writing stuff.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 01, 2012, 11:11:18 am
... What could possibly go wrong with a brand new Federal bureaucracy being formed out of such a massive document?...

In a past life I had some up close and personal experience with the procurement process for both the DOD and for NASA.

Buy any Army or civilian Quarter Master type a few beers and he will sadly inform you that if his unit or origination NEEDS five of one item, that he will order fifteen of that item.  Out of the fifteen items ordered, the troops or bureaucrats needing this item can expect to receive two or three copies, at most.  Five of the original fifteen items shipped will be lost in transit, an additional five of the remaining ten items will be pilfered by near by units because they either need or think that they may need this item and they know how hard it is to get in a timely manner.  Three of the remaining five items will go out the front gate on the back floor of someones' car.  The unit or agency needing the item will only receive two or three of the fifteen items your government ordered and paid for but the government's records show that they have all fifteen items on hand.   

This wrapped up in a used nutty bar wrapper is how government mandated health care or anything else works, and how cost efficient and user friendly your soon to be government health care will become.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 01, 2012, 02:16:02 pm
Kingbee, I don’t carry dental insurance and my average yearly dental costs have been about $250 a year (couple of checkups, xrays).  My folks have dental insurance and end up paying nearly $2000 a year for their insurance.  Yeah the insurance pays most of their dentist bills (not all), but those bills are under $500 a year in total.  So where does the extra $1500 a year go?

Yeah some goes into a pool to pay for people who need extensive dental work, but those people always get their premiums adjusted up later so the insurance companies can recoup their outlays.  The net effect is a TON of money goes into the insurance company CEO’s pockets and his minions.  That doesn’t help the people, it doesn’t help the dentists, it doesn’t help health.  It just helps the CEOs.  How is that a good system?  How is that better than Obama care?  If the CEOs hadn’t gotten so greedy, maybe we wouldn't the government to step in; maybe we wouldn't need Obama care?

Personally I would like to see a system where people have to pay directly for what they use and cut out these insurance middle men (CEOs, Obama, etc) all together.  When people have to pay out of their own pocket for a service, competition works.  When people don’t have to pay for every bill, services seem “free” and people abuse the system and costs skyrocket.  I would like to see all insurance banned except for catastrophic insurance; which should then be mandatory. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on September 01, 2012, 04:57:16 pm
Bluebee, as you said.

You pay for all yours. It is about 250.00 a year.

Most of your parent's is paid by ins. It's about double yours.

Now make it free and it will be 1000.00 a year. People have a tendency to use less of anything that costs more.

That's why I agree with doing away with ins. other than catastrophic, but I do not agree with free to everyone at the taxpayer's expense. Let each pay for his own. Then the rich doctors and ceos will take a cut in pay and the poor folks will have more left when they don't have to pay out 75% of income in taxes.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 01, 2012, 11:26:12 pm
If opposites like Iddee and I can agree to a solution, why can’t Congress find a solution?  It’s not like this is a new problem!
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 02, 2012, 08:09:09 pm
... What personal choice does it [expanded government] take away? I work for X employer and as a benefit of that job I got Health Insurance through Blue Cross. If tomorrow they wanted to change my insurance provider they can without my consent. What kind of choice is quite my job or take what they decide?...

If one enjoys a government that is expended to the degree you seem to prefer, then one works for a government owned or government controlled industry.  In that case what choice do you have in any decision the government makes for you, or makes to your employment status.  Everything in your life is static. You are frozen in a bureaucratic neither world that never improves.  Since change is inevitable, the only way for change to occur is for negative change to happen, and happen it will.   

The last time I looked it was easier to change jobs than it was to swap nations.  That is what makes the USA unicue, we are a nation of people who changed nations rather than accept the status quo imposed by a government sanctioned cast system like the one that existed in many small European states prior to the middle of the 19Th century. 

Let's say you wanted to marry.  First you needed the permission of the local poobah, be he King, Earl, Duke, or Barron.  To obtain the needed permission you had to have proof of gainful employment.  Now this was not so hard to provide since many of the jobs were government jobs, like customs inspectors, tax collectors, armorers, even librarians or teachers all employed by the current ruler who already knew how much he paid you.  And who at a moments notice could shatter your rice bowl for political considerations.  For everyone else there was often a vast network of spies and informants who collected information on every one old enough to have an opinion.  No job equals no wedding bells or wedded bliss for you.  In addition, because new housing was scarce and dear, you must already have a house for you and your future bride to play house in.  I know it sounds cruel to you but to the poobah it was just a good way to fight homelessness.

No problem you say?  Ill just move 30 clicks down the road and get a job in that neighboring state that is building a new fangled railroad.  Hold it, wait up, your all knowing benevolent ruler, the great poobah, will not allow that.  He may at any moment desperately need your warm body and strong back in his army to either plug a hole in the national defence, or else attack some other nation.  As long as you were under 45 or 50 years old the poobah considered you as an unpaid, self rationing member of his armed forces, and woe be to you if you tried to escape service in the poobah's military industrial complex by giving up the "job" your ruler created for you and move to a neighboring state.  Personages as infamous as Mussolini and Hitler both fell into the bad graces of their respective ruling poobahs by emigrating before their "required" military service was completed.

Now how would you like being a buck private in some Duke of Earl's army with me as your NCO?  :police:  :-? Ummm, sounds good too me.   :-D

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 01:30:01 pm

Bluegrass, where did you get your copy of the bill's PDF? Where do you get "... HR 3590 [and] is exactly 899 pages long"? My copy came from house.gov.

The Library of Congress:
All Bills Get called a Bill, and assigned a HR # even if not passed and signed by the President ;) The bill you cited is the House of Representative's Draft.... The bill signed into law is HR 3590 and is 899 pages long.

HR 3962 was abandoned in 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 01:49:54 pm
So what do the Romney supporters here think of his interview on Meet the Press where he stated that he will keep major parts of "Obamacare".
Now that he has the Nomination he can loosen up about his real political positions.

So much for his April interview where he said "I will repeal Obamacare in it's entirety, and quite frankly I will do it on my first day"

Like I said before... Lot's of Conservatives will be really Disappointed. 

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 01:55:42 pm
The conservatives in the House can defund the whole thing. I wish they would do it.They are not bound by law to further fund it.
He can only fund what the House of Representatives writes into a spending bill. Hopefully Ryan keeps him on the right path,although Ryan has signed onto spending bills he should not have.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 01:59:16 pm
P.S.
I did not see the interview. I may have to try to catch it myself and see it.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 02:03:12 pm
The House is up for election in it's entirety... It would be pretty dumb to promise "repeal" in the method you state... He may not have a majority. If he wins his hands may be completely tied on the issue... I think he is shifting gears to ease the public into that reality.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 02:22:06 pm
I don't think the Republicans are in danger of losing the House.The Dems are more likely to lose the size of the majority in the Senate, if not altogether.
The jobless numbers properly analyzed are dismal at best.Taking into account people no longer actively looking for work,the true unemployment number is up much further than the Obama administration would have you believe. Even if 96000 jobs were added last month,thats less than 2000 per state,not really bragging rights.
 The stimulus did not work.Our children and grandchildren will be paying back the 40 cents of every dollar our government is spending. Why would people want to spend their childrens future with them not even having a say in the matter. That is disgusting in my point of view.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 02:24:26 pm
It would not be "dumb" to repeal it in this matter. that is the only way to get spending under control is to say "No".The government is out of money and it is not a revenue problem,they are spendaholics spending money which they have no Constitutional mandate to do.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 02:30:42 pm
In reflection on Obabacare and Romney care in MA at least the Romney plan was done at the state level where it should be done. Not at the Federal level. Each state could tailor a plan to suit it's needs instead of a one size fits all plan.With that option it would be closer to being controlled by the people who have an easier time changing things at the state level.
the powers belong to the people first,states second and the Fed should only be using powers granted to it by the first two. It's a sad lesson people do not understand the Constitution was written to limit the power of the federal government. Not the powers of the citizens and collective of states.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 02:37:45 pm
Even with the Majority now he would not have enough votes to "Repeal" which is what he has promised to do. It would take a 2/3rd majority.

I can't understand how anybody can Afford to stop looking for work.. If I were unemployed that would be a great luxury to have. What the Media fails to report when they report the numbers is that the population in question changes. For example if you are unemployed and enter college or the military you are dropped into the "no longer looking for work" category.

The Job numbers are not going to make or break this election...  There are only 12.5 million people out of work and 155 million who vote. Most Americans don't even know a person who is out of work. Times have changed from the days when every town had factory workers and if a factory closed everybody in town knew about it. Those days are gone...
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 02:39:54 pm
In reflection on Obabacare and Romney care in MA at least the Romney plan was done at the state level where it should be done. Not at the Federal level. Each state could tailor a plan to suit it's needs instead of a one size fits all plan.With that option it would be closer to being controlled by the people who have an easier time changing things at the state level.
the powers belong to the people first,states second and the Fed should only be using powers granted to it by the first two. It's a sad lesson people do not understand the Constitution was written to limit the power of the federal government. Not the powers of the citizens and collective of states.

I can understand that argument and it is a ligit one... But Romney is planning to do something on the Federal level. And it now includes keeping parts of Obamacare in effect.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 09, 2012, 04:38:06 pm
My daughter lost her job at a local hospital last week because of the new Obama Care regulations that are soon to be in effect.  Her job in records is going away because it has been outlawed.  Her job is now performed by a drop down menu on a computer screen that asks the doctor to chose from one or the other of several listed diseases, conditions, or maladies regardless of what the doctor thinks is, or is not wrong with you.

My wife who is a Registered Nurse in the Emergency Room along with the doctors just had their tech helpers in the ER taken away.  Now the ER doctors, NPs, and RNs must do all the charting, take all the specimens, do all the admitting, take all the temperatures, do all the blood pressures, stock all the rooms with band aids, as well as make every bed in the ER before a new patient is seen.  If you thought the wait in the ER was long and tedious before, wait until you see the delays, run rounds, and endless referrals to no-existant family doctors you're going to experience after Obama Care is fully implemented.

1976 Toyota Corona Station Wagon Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31cA59a7MJU#)
 
"You asked for it, you got it..."
 but the question is, will you want more of it the following morning, or will one night of pleasure end in a lifetime of regret?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 05:04:13 pm
 You can't understand how some one can not afford to look for work?

Makes you wonder why there are more on welfare and food stamps than ever. Not to mention those hitting the SSi disability plan from not being able to work now because of the  mental stress of being unemployed.

 You really do not know someone unemployed? Come on now. I know quite a few,and not proud of some of them. You know,the ones who thought they would accept the full term of unemployment as a well deserved vacation.
I do know of others that went and found other employment when they were terminated from a previous  job.

Jobless numbers will have an effect, as numbers increase people wonder if they will be next. And when that sets in,they slow the discretionary spending,which snowballs into others losing jobs.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 05:27:54 pm
King I am sorry about your daughters loss of work, but no I do not know anybody who is out of work. I have a family member who is "underemployed" but that is of their own doing lets say.... Though they blame Obama  :roll:

As far as being replaced by a computer... That is part of any business now days... Every time I go to the Grocery store their are less cashiers and more self check lines.

I started in heathcare 13 years ago as a "runner". I moved labs and other items around the hospital. At that time we had about 30 runners to cover the entire hospital 365/24. I moved up to an OR tech and today I am an RN. The job I started in is now done by 4 robots and the 30 runners don't exist any longer. I don't see efficiency as a drawback. We all are responsible to anticipate the changes in our fields and improve our selves to adapt to the changes. I don't know what people will be doing in another 100 years... I think all workers are on the path to being replaced by a machine. I see it every day even as an RN. Every time we get new equipment it does more and more stuff for us. We have hospital beds now that can turn the Patient, take their body temp and other Vital Signs, weighs the patient, and puts all that information into the computer for us...

I have long said that we have too many Nursing Aids. I frequently bring that point up at staff meetings. I am used to working with a 30.1 ratio and we have 8.1 ratio which is the same as Nurses.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 06:58:27 pm

Jobless numbers will have an effect, as numbers increase people wonder if they will be next. And when that sets in,they slow the discretionary spending,which snowballs into others losing jobs.

Your statement was contradictory... First you state that people can afford to stop looking for work because Foodstamps and SSI. Then you state that unemployment will have an impact in favor of Romney.... If I was on SSI and foodstamps I would keep the Democrats for obvious reasons.

But your statement about the SSI may have some truth to it... I just looked up the states with the highest unemployment rates... and the top 4 are all in Obama's court. Nevada, Rhode Island, California and New Jersey...(blue) Followed by South Carolina (red).
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 09, 2012, 08:55:41 pm
The Job numbers are not going to make or break this election...  There are only 12.5 million people out of work and 155 million who vote. Most Americans don't even know a person who is out of work. Times have changed from the days when every town had factory workers and if a factory closed everybody in town knew about it. Those days are gone...

You know I agree with about everything you say Bluegrass, but I am going to have to side with Buzzbee on this one.  Wow, I can’t believe you don’t know of anybody unemployed.  There are lots of lots of people in Michigan in that boat and I know plenty.  The times may not have changed as much as you think outside of the coasts.  Middle American still makes a lot of stuff and still employees a lot of designers, engineers, managers, programmers, accountants, labor, in doing so.  Yes there is much less UAW, but still lots of salaried people that oversee the robots, etc.  The money those people makes then circulates in our economy and everybody benefits or suffers in accordance to the flow of $$$$.

When product isn’t moving, shifts close and people lose their jobs around here.  As Buzzbee says, it has a snowball effect in the Midwest economy.  I’m an Obama supporter, but I know this is going to hurt his chances.  At this point, I believe (and the polls show) Obama is still going to win re-election, but it will be a squeaker.  Enough voters still realize it was Bush and the Republicans that created this mess and it will take years and years to fix.  Obama wins unless there is some new economic crisis before the election.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 09:59:59 pm
I may be wrong,but I think Kingbees point was that the Doctors and trained staff will be spending more of their time on clerical things instead of treating patients.This will ultimately effect quality of care,not cost efficiency.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 09, 2012, 10:02:05 pm
And no contradiction really, a lot of the employed paying for the unemployed  may vote that had not previously taken the time.
By your own statement of numbers that is a huge voting block.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 09, 2012, 10:41:43 pm
I guess the job issue will come down to who the voters think have the best chances of improving the issue. Here in CT our Unemployment rate is above 9%, but we are solidly blue. Historically Dems have done better on job creation. I really don't think jobs will hurt Obama much and probably not at all.

I think that it will be a wider gap than people think... Romney has some major issues he doesn't seem to be resolving and people don't like him on a personal level. He will be the first person to be Elected without carrying their home state... and he was Governor of that state so that is an issue. Like I said before' even Reagan pulled off wins in very Liberal California both times.

And then you have the Tea Party who have largely vowed to vote Johnson since being silenced at the RNC. He is on the ballot in every state now, so some will shift last minute based on principle. That is a pretty big segment of the Conservative vote and it only hurts Romney.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 10, 2012, 12:26:11 am
I guess the job issue will come down to who the voters think have the best chances of improving the issue. Here in CT our Unemployment rate is above 9%, but we are solidly blue. Historically Dems have done better on job creation. I really don't think jobs will hurt Obama much and probably not at all.


The jobs issue is a biggie.  Today there are fewer Americans working than there were 31 years ago.  This was the last year of the Jimmy Carter economic depression in 1981.  Most of these jobs went away on Obama's watch, not during Bush's or Clinton's Presidential Administration.  Remember that in 1981 the population was almost 80,000,000 fewer than it is today.  So the number of jobs that has been lost on Obama's watch is even greater than what the raw numbers show. 

But this suits the New Democrat Party's leadership fine because the leadership is mostly composed of elites who managed to made it out of their parents' basement.  These elites don't now and never will make or create anything.  So in that respect Obama is correct when he says, "You didn't create that..." 

However the New Democrat Party leadership does have a need for an army of nannies, servants, serfs, and peasants in the form of organic farmers, toe nail painters, greengrocers, dog walkers, massage therapist, bicycle repairmen, and other menial laborers to define the non lives of the Democrat Party's current sordid leadership.  I am sorry but this Democrat Party isn't your mothers' or your fathers' Democrat Party, it resembles King George's III's Tory party more than FDR's New Deal party. 

Only an Obama Democrat can call 91,000 new hires in August, verses 119,000 lost jobs, not to mention 380,000 more people who gave up looking for work last month a victory for the working man.  But that is exactly the news that greeted Obama last week when he was renominated in Charlotte NC.  And if the past is any indication the 91,000 new hires in August will be "REFIGURED" downward by 50% like previous hiring figures were lowered when no one was looking.  Even Bill Clinton told the convention in Charlotte that things would be better if he was in charge, meaning Bill being the power behind the throne in a Hillary Presidency.  Obama and Joe Biden are to dumb to get it.  Or maybe Obama does get it and that is why he didn't want Hillary as his vice president, it is Obama's life insurance policy.   

Prediction:  If Obama gets it he will not reappoint Hillary Secretary of State, forcing her to live out the next 4 years in obscurity, a death sentence to a politician like Hillary, and an ego killer for her husband Bill.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 10, 2012, 01:03:26 am
Toenail painters?  I knew I should have applied for that job!  What’s the bennies with that one?

I’m going to agree with you Kingbee that the jobs numbers are dismal and Obama deserves some of the blame.  However we don’t have a monarchy here in America.  Obama is just a president, not a King.  He doesn’t wield enough power all by himself to run things.  We have separation of powers and as long as the American public votes for the “Just say no” guys, we’ll continue in grid lock and nothing will get solved.  It takes compromise to move forward.  Just saying “no” to everything accomplishes nothing. 

Since congress won’t do anything, we’ll just have to wait for the business cycle to turn before a real recovery can occur.  Ironically this is just the kind of solution the Republicans believe in.  So we’re getting what the Republicans want and guess what; it just isn’t working out very well!
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 10, 2012, 04:00:18 am
My daughter lost her job because of a clause in Obama's Affordable Health Care law that mandates computer generated records as well as diagnosis.  If you interviewed Mother Nature using one of these programs you would be forced by Obama Care to commit the old girl, after all she is bi polar.  She has a North as well as a South Poll.    

Efficiency in an hospital Emergency Room which is already fast paced is not something that can be mandated by a government employee standing around a water cooler a thousand miles away. Besides, when was the last time you clicked the wrong box on a drop down computer menu and the machine started printing out something you don't need, didn't want, or can't use or maybe you only lost the file and a whole days work?

The up side to all of this, if there is one is that now the health care industry in general and the government in particular can keep track of the drug seekers who habitually abuse the ER looking for a fix.  Your medical records will travel at the speed of light from doctor to doctor or from ER to ER.  The same thing for the people who seek multiple abortions. :oops:  With Obama care your sex life may not be displayed on a bill board, but it will certainly be possible for medical profesionals (or un-professionals as the case may be) to make educated guesses about their pactients sex lives, especially their female patients by knowing how many free condomes the government gives you each year.

    
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 10, 2012, 10:08:42 am
Quote
We have separation of powers and as long as the American public votes for the “Just say no” guys, we’ll continue in grid lock and nothing will get solved.

since these "just say no" guys hold 1/2 of 1/3 of the government, and that for only the last less than two years, maybe you can explain just what they are doing to block progress?

what would obama be doing to get things rolling if he were not so obstructed.....take that as you wish   :evil:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 10, 2012, 11:21:49 am
The just say NO Republicans use the Filibusters to grid lock government and prevent anything from being solved.  You don’t solve problems by just saying no to everything.  It’s takes compromise to move forward.  They would rather throw the baby out with the bath water than compromise to solve problems.   

From Wikipedia:
“The Senate Republicans of the 111th Congress again broke the record for the number of filibusters in a session, passing 100 cloture votes in the first eleven months. “

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_States_Senate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_States_Senate)

Kingbee, sorry to hear your daughter lost her job  :(
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 10, 2012, 12:25:51 pm
both sides use filibusters.  what was the outcome of the republican led filibusters and how was "progress" obstructed? 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 10, 2012, 01:02:30 pm
Does Mr KathyP only do what he wants or does he sometimes compromise with KathyP when it comes to decision making? 

I’m just saying a couple, or groups of people, don’t have a good productive relationship if all parties are not willing to give and take.  Only 2 year olds get their way all the time.  Reagan was able to compromise and work with the Dems.  Didn't always turn out real great, but at least there wasn't constant gridlock where problems can never get solved due to all the animosity such obstructionism generates on both sides.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 10, 2012, 02:42:02 pm
 you still can't give examples of the effect of this "obstructionism"?  seems rather hard to believe that a party that only holds 1/2 of one branch can be doing much obstructing.  + there were 2 full years where your party had full control and a veto proof majority in the senate.  other than obama care, what did they do....exactly? 

you still have a majority in the senate and can't even turn out a budget.  kind of hard to even compromise with no plan.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 10, 2012, 08:34:47 pm
I believe the rules of the senate creating the modern day filibuster were put in by a Democrat named Robert Byrd, I guess it's different when they use the rules against the Dems. And what have the Democrats compromised on lately?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 10, 2012, 08:40:05 pm
And I do believe the Republicans were elected in this last voting cycle to stop the Democrats from what they were doing,not to appease them.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 10, 2012, 09:39:02 pm
a good example of not compromising was the health care bill.  dems completely shut out republicans just because they could. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 11, 2012, 11:45:38 am
...
Kingbee, sorry to hear your daughter lost her job  :(

That is nice of you Blue, thanks.  I doubt she will be out of work for long.  She applied today for a Obama Era Grant to get he Masters Degree in Toe Nail Art.  :roll:  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on September 11, 2012, 12:01:41 pm
I believe the rules of the senate creating the modern day filibuster were put in by a Democrat named Robert Byrd, I guess it's different when they use the rules against the Dems. And what have the Democrats compromised on lately?
Compromise to a Dem means giving in to the Dems not meeting them half way.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 11, 2012, 12:29:22 pm
The problem with the Republican's right now is that they lost their identity in the Bush Era. The issues that used to help get them elected don't work anymore.

Now they have put up a candidate who is likely left of the current President on many issues. If Romney had been the Democratic Nominee 4 years ago everybody would be hammering him on his Healthcare, gun and fiscal policy... Gun Manufacturers would be making a fortune as people bought up all the guns and ammo they could find. He did nothing for MA fiscally, It was #2 highest debt per ca pita State when he took office and it was #1 when he left. They would be killing him on the Record number of federal "earmarks" he got to fund the Olympics.

 But because he has a "R" next to his name they are being real hush hush on those issues.

And when Obama wins a second term the minority will scoff about how voters are a bunch of "dumb Sheeple" And put up there "Hopey changy" bumper stickers. And pout for 4 more years.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 11, 2012, 02:17:21 pm
i don't think there is anything hush, hush, about romneys past positions.  we are aware of them.  some of them make conservatives like me, kind of nervous....however....at this point, getting a far left liberal out of office and replacing him with a moderate conservative, is a no brainer.  i wish Romney were more conservative, but i had wished when Reagan was running that he had a more conservative history. 

it is the nature of the game that none of us get exactly what we want.  we do the best we can with what is offered and then try to keep them on the straight and narrow.  doesn't always work....
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 11, 2012, 02:59:21 pm

it is the nature of the game that none of us get exactly what we want.  we do the best we can with what is offered and then try to keep them on the straight and narrow.  doesn't always work....

You are over looking exactly what you want in exchange for a possible win.
http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues (http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 11, 2012, 03:53:07 pm
the person i am going to vote for has to have a chance of winning.  otherwise, i have voted for obama.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 11, 2012, 06:14:07 pm
... You are over looking [at] exactly what you want in exchange for a possible win... [Gary Johnson]

In early 2010 Nevada's Democrat Senator Harry Reid was trailing badly in the polls.  He was likely down by 25 points or more.  When asked if he was concerned with his chances to pull victory out of the gaping jaws of defeat Reid laughling answered, "No the Tea Party guarantees my reelection."  The Tea Party got behind Sharron Angle and nominated her to run against Senator Harry Reid, the rest is history. So it is with former Governor Gary Johnson.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 11, 2012, 06:25:57 pm
Obamas largest voting block are those that are getting something for nothing and ,I hate to say it,vote for him because he is black.
I am not opposed to a black president. I would have voted for Herman Cain if he was the candidate.
  I think it's a shame JC Watts is not heard from very much.
But these men do not fit the mold many liberals  think blacks should fit into. These are people that want equal opportunity,not equal outcomes.
Alan Keyes was another demonized by the liberal media at the time.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 11, 2012, 06:32:33 pm
And when I see folks like Chris Matthews on pmsnbc frothing at the mouth and foaming and fuming that calling Obama the food stamp president and any attempt at welfare reform is an attack on colored people it really ticks me off. There is enough fraud and waste in the system that you can not keep reform of it off of the table.
But in that episode,Newt made Mathews look like a fool with facts over feelings. MSNBC will be the creator of it's own demise with hosts like Matthews.
And ,Obama has put more people on food stamps than anyone. He earned the food stamp President badge,he should own up to it.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 11, 2012, 07:15:37 pm
i don't know.  a lot of my tree hugging white friends are voting for him.  what the heck are you doing watching MSNBC?  are they still on???   :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 11, 2012, 08:45:58 pm
... You are over looking [at] exactly what you want in exchange for a possible win... [Gary Johnson]

In early 2010 Nevada's Democrat Senator Harry Reid was trailing badly in the polls.  He was likely down by 25 points or more.  When asked if he was concerned with his chances to pull victory out of the gaping jaws of defeat Reid laughling answered, "No the Tea Party guarantees my reelection."  The Tea Party got behind Sharron Angle and nominated her to run against Senator Harry Reid, the rest is history. So it is with former Governor Gary Johnson.

You know the rest of that story? Reid's PACs paid for all the Pro Sharron Angle ads that put her at the top of the pack.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 11, 2012, 09:05:49 pm
Obama has put more people on food stamps than anyone. He earned the food stamp President badge,he should own up to it.

For starters Foodstamps haven't existed in about 15-20 years. SNAP is a benefit program which has certain criteria for people to meet eligibility. naturally in a time of economic down turn more people meet eligibility. But at any rate, Factcheck debunked Newt's claim that Obama put more people on "Foodstamps" than any other president, back when he made the claim.. Snap is funded under the Farm bill but distributed by the states. The president does not directly decide to put more people on it or not.  
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 11, 2012, 09:54:44 pm
Quote
The Tea Party got behind Sharron Angle and nominated her to run against Senator Harry Reid, the rest is history.

Harry Reid wasn't worried because he knew how to get the corrupt union machine in gear. Between the Las Vegas mob and the corrupt union bosses, he is guaranteed re-election...lights out, threats to workers, etc.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 11, 2012, 11:06:45 pm
Gee, have any beeks been paying attention to the stock market under President Obama?

“The Dow industrials closed at the highest level in nearly five years on Tuesday”
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-drops-fed-tech-000217666.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-drops-fed-tech-000217666.html)

The Dow is up an impressive 38% since Obama took over.  Guess what, that means some people are much better off today than 4 years ago.  Ironically they’re probably Republicans! 

Forbes headline:  Stock Market Suggests Victory for Obama.

Despite the whining from the Republicans’, the bottom line is; if the power brokers are making money, they’re going to keep Obama in power.  That’s right fellow beeks, 4 MORE YEARS!
 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 11, 2012, 11:12:50 pm
As far as calling the food stamp another name,it is still the same program. If the Dept of Agriculture gives the money to the states to distribute,it is still a federal program.
To use one of the liberal medias favorite quotes a short time ago:
Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.
Factcheck has no liberal leanings or bias do they? Heck,even snopes has been proven biased with the facts at times.


To use the
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 11, 2012, 11:18:35 pm
Putting money on a debit card instead of the old stamps really changes a lot. I see abuse of the Wic program by people who do not need it every time I go to the market. And I know of second and third generations taking advantage of and abusing these programs.
I know of people who  will give away their freebies because they got it for nothing but don't care for the stuff. And it gets my blood boiling every time I see it.
I spoke up about it to a couple people I happened to know that did this and you would have thought I was stealing their first born child.
I'm glad some people live in the Socialist Utopia where this is happening and it's okay,but I think the payers have had about enough.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 11, 2012, 11:27:13 pm
Perhaps the Republican obstruction of the Democrats is really helping the market after all.Too bad there is not enough conservative Republicans.
Now how Government Motors stock we  the people need to sell off at 53 dollars per share just to break even on the gift we gave them?
This stock hit the market at 35 dollars in November 2010. So much for the government picking the winners with my money.
22.97 today.
Solyndra,528 million down the drain. Now the 300 million dollar building may be sold for 95 million and the taxpayer will be last in the line of creditors to get paid with the structure of the bankruptcy.
I would not allow these clowns to invest any more of ny money.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 12, 2012, 01:27:34 am
Quote
Despite the whining from the Republicans’, the bottom line is; if the power brokers are making money, they’re going to keep Obama in power.  That’s right fellow beeks, 4 MORE YEARS!


yeah.....no

but hey, if it makes you happy to believe that, go for it.  we all need a fantasy life. ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 12, 2012, 10:28:51 am
Buzz

Your rants make a lot of interesting points, but there is absolutely no evidence that Romney will change any of that. He most recently spelled out a 10 year plan to fix the economy and that "easing Monetary policy isn't going to make a significant difference in the job market".So you can kiss any idea of fiscal conservatism good bye under a Romney Admin.

The "foodstamp" Numbers are released every January. As of last January Obama had not put more people on foodstamps than any other President... If you don't like factcheck you can search the numbers yourself. That statement may be true by this coming January, but it was at least a year premature.   

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 12, 2012, 11:22:24 am
http://www.trivisonno.com/food-stamps-charts (http://www.trivisonno.com/food-stamps-charts)

this has a lot of charts.  take the site or leave it, but from a quick look at the numbers, the charts seem accurate. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 12, 2012, 12:34:15 pm
A couple of interesting notes at the bottom of that blog:

Quote
Note: The numbers for Presidents Bush (43) and Obama are higher than they otherwise would have been because the government started to use food stamps for disaster relief starting in 2005 for Hurricane Katrina. See this PDF document for those numbers.

The March 2012 numbers are slightly elevated due to disaster relief for windstorms that occurred in February and March 2012. However, the USDA did not give exact numbers, possibly because “congregate feeding” methods were used.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 12, 2012, 01:06:57 pm
that's true.  was witness to this evolution.  this is done through the state agencies.  it should also be noted that the federal government has been supporting TV and internet ads for food stamps. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 13, 2012, 10:24:33 am
The ads were run because a high percent of people who qualify were not taking advantage of the program. Nothing wrong with that really. The Government does the same thing across the board. National park visits drop off they run ads promoting the Park System. Oil spill in the gulf they run ads promoting safe seafood from the gulf. Every unused Snap benefit is $105.00 not going to a local business somewhere in the country every month. And when compiled those are jobs not being filled by that business. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: gdoten on September 13, 2012, 11:26:15 am

Bluegrass, where did you get your copy of the bill's PDF? Where do you get "... HR 3590 [and] is exactly 899 pages long"? My copy came from house.gov.

The Library of Congress:
All Bills Get called a Bill, and assigned a HR # even if not passed and signed by the President ;) The bill you cited is the House of Representative's Draft.... The bill signed into law is HR 3590 and is 899 pages long.

HR 3962 was abandoned in 2009

I stand corrected, Bluegrass; you are quite correct about HR 3590 being the law. My mistake: I sure did think that HR 3962 actually was the primary text of the law and appreciate the correction. HR 3962 is what I read back when the bill was being jammed down out throats.

Apparently it is Public Law # 111-148:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590: (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590:)

Then you click the Text of Legislation link to get to the 7 versions the bill went through. Click #7's PDF link and you get the document. It is 906 pages long.

The "Bill Text Versions" page is an eye-opener. The bill started out as Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 and morphed into the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Part of the legislative games the D's used to get this sucker passed. Very interesting how HR 3590 was orignally an IRS law and now the law is hiring 16,500 IRS agents to enforce this behemoth. Coincidence? So instead of just spending tons of overhead money on insurance company clerks, we know get to fund an ADDITIONAL 16,500 IRS clerks to check up on us:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/story/2012-07-09/IRS-to-tackle-health-care-and-taxes/56108848/1 (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/story/2012-07-09/IRS-to-tackle-health-care-and-taxes/56108848/1)

And the D's have the nerve to call this thing the AFFORDABLE health care act! Just more Fed jobs, really. Which will require a whole new set of laws, rules, regulations, and bureacracy just for that part of the bill's implementation.

And, of course, this document is the legal tip of the iceburg we are all being hit by. Want to have some real fun? Go back to the HR 3590 page (link above) and click on the Amendments link. No fewer than 150 ammendments are already in the pipeline for this already complex bill. Now click on the first link "S.AMDT.2786" then on the "text of amendment as submitted". Page after page of changes. The tip of the iceburg, I tell ya. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS."

Now I wish it were 2,000 pages long.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: gdoten on September 13, 2012, 11:38:25 am
The problem with the Republican's right now is that they lost their identity in the Bush Era. The issues that used to help get them elected don't work anymore.

Are we forgetting about the last mid-terms?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: gdoten on September 13, 2012, 11:51:11 am
The ads were run because a high percent of people who qualify were not taking advantage of the program. Nothing wrong with that really. The Government does the same thing across the board. National park visits drop off they run ads promoting the Park System. Oil spill in the gulf they run ads promoting safe seafood from the gulf. Every unused Snap benefit is $105.00 not going to a local business somewhere in the country every month. And when compiled those are jobs not being filled by that business. 

I just don't understand that logic. I think of it as every unused Snap benefit is $105.00 saved by the taxpayers, and money the taxpayer can choose how they want to spend with their local business. Seems like spending less of the taxpayers money, especially given the deficit and the lack of a budget, would be a good thing. What were the ads: "Hey You! Want Some Free Money? Call 1-800-THE-FEDS NOW!"
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on September 13, 2012, 12:22:02 pm
Gee, have any beeks been paying attention to the stock market under President Obama?

“The Dow industrials closed at the highest level in nearly five years on Tuesday”
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-drops-fed-tech-000217666.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-drops-fed-tech-000217666.html)

The Dow is up an impressive 38% since Obama took over.  Guess what, that means some people are much better off today than 4 years ago.  Ironically they’re probably Republicans! 

Forbes headline:  Stock Market Suggests Victory for Obama.

Despite the whining from the Republicans’, the bottom line is; if the power brokers are making money, they’re going to keep Obama in power.  That’s right fellow beeks, 4 MORE YEARS!
 :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

You don't recon the feds printing two rounds of money and buying 60% of our own bonds had anything to do with the markets going up do you?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 13, 2012, 12:40:45 pm
Quote
You don't recon the feds printing two rounds of money and buying 60% of our own bonds had anything to do with the markets going up do you?

anyone who looks at the stock market and thinks it's an indicator of the health of the economy is better off keeping money under the mattress.   :evil:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on September 13, 2012, 09:21:20 pm
The Fed past a third round of money printing today. I think they call it QE3. They are going to dump 40 billion a month of printed money into the stock market and the wall street people are going to be happy. Just in time for the election BTW. I think the way this works Gold prices will go up and the value of the dollar will go down.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 14, 2012, 02:14:54 pm
One thing to consider about Healthcare is that nothing detrimental to major PACs or other Interests makes it in Washington. Healthcare and Health Insurance are two very heavy hitter's when it comes to "soft money" in Washington. The interest groups all have elements they don't like about the healthcare overhaul, but they could have easily killed it in Washington if they wanted too.

They stand to make big money off of this law, I will not deny that... And likely it is money that will be made off the backs of the working American.

Hospitals all across this country are expanding as fast as they can. The hospital I work for is currently building a new patient tower which will open in 2014. It is more than doubling our current space. Others are re-organizing to maximize their positioning when the law takes effect. Healthcare is about the only area in Construction seeing rapid expansion. 

Uninsured patients make up a significant part of any hospitals patient population and whether insured or not, the Health insurance industry pay's for their care. 





The problem with the Republican's right now is that they lost their identity in the Bush Era. The issues that used to help get them elected don't work anymore.

Are we forgetting about the last mid-terms?
[/quote]
The "Republican sweep" was not made by Republicans. These were mostly libertarian candidates who ran as Republican's. Hence their approval rating being lowest in history. We will see a major change in seat holders this time around too. I would not make any bets on which party will hold the majority after the election... The Entire House may change.   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 14, 2012, 05:23:19 pm
Not sure it was libertarian as much as Tea Party candidates. I think the tea Party folks are remaining relatively quiet until election day.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 14, 2012, 07:03:59 pm
Quote
These were mostly libertarian candidates who ran as Republican's.

don't think any of them were libertarian as I understand the word.

Quote
I think the tea Party folks are remaining relatively quiet until election day.

they have made the change from activist marching group, to practical working group.  marching in parks has limited effect in the long run.  supporting candidates, both with time and with fundraising, gets people elected.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on September 15, 2012, 08:37:15 am
as for 28 above,what military experience did Bill Clinton have. I think he was a draft dodger.
I question other "facts 'in that excerpt.

Romney also dodged the draft (2 deferments) as a Governor's Son (fortunate one), (spent his time doing 'missionary' duty in France  :roll:) would've loved to have him sharing time w/ me and my brothers at any firebase in S/E Asia (Clinton too for that matter). 

And what about those five young, strapping sons of his?....Why they were/are MIA in the midst of 2 two unpaid for Wars.  Go figure.

I wasn't going to post here as it tends to be mostly a one-sided conversation w/ little meaningfull debate.  I've taken to  reading these posts on COFFEE HOUSE for enjoyment and amusement in recent months, BUT.....After reading 'ten' pages titled 'VP Pick', I found little in substance related to Paul Ryan (R-WI) and not one poster from Wisconsin chiming in. 

IMO, most of the posters seem to know little to nothing about the man.  Too bad for the average citizen.

Based on the above I expect we will get exactly what we deserve come November.  I just want it to be over already.

t
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 15, 2012, 10:44:21 am
as far as i know, it was one deferment and it was because he was doing his mormon missionary service.  had nothing to do with who he was related to.  also, was not based on a lie, as was clintons.

since only about 1% of the population has served in the last decade, it's not to surprising to find that his sons have not....along with the sons and daughters of most of  the population...who like to complain at the cost, but don't consider helping shoulder the burden.

now...back to ryan.  we do know about him.  that's why we are thrilled at the choice.  the left knows about him also and that's why they were not!  anyone who was watching that health care crap got to know ryan and cantor....who would have been another excellent choice. 
what i can't wait for, is the debate between ryan and biden.  that should be entertaining.

will also be interested in the ones between romney and obama.  as it has turned out, obama can't put two words together without the teleprompter.  hopefully, the observers will be scanning the radio frequencies for the in-ear prompter he wore in the last debates, because we now have witnessed that he's not capable of that performance on his own!

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 17, 2012, 12:34:16 am
Gee, have any beeks been paying attention to the stock market under President Obama?...

The Fed past a third round of money printing today. I think they call it QE3. They are going to dump 40 billion a month of printed money into the stock market and the wall street people are going to be happy....

So Blue, do you think that the $40,000,000,000 (40 Billion) dollars that Obama is dumping into the stock market every month has something to do with it?
Let me see now, $40,000,000,000 per month times 12 months (Carry the One) is almost HALF A TRILLION Dollars per year or 1.3 Billion dollars each day that Obama and the FED is dropping on Wall Street.  It is also equal to 55.5 million dollars every hour of every day, 24-7. 

The people who are going to be even happier however are the Greeks.  These QE3 bucks are going to finance the Greek and Spanish national debt.  Their deficit spending has resulted in intrest rates on Greek and Spanish debt in the 7% range.  What's not to like about loaning BlueBee's money to Greece? :lol:   

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 17, 2012, 01:32:52 am
1:  It’s not Obama dumping 40 billion a month in the stock market, it’s Mr Bernanke.  He’s the head of the Fed; an independent gov agency.  

2:  Mr Bernanke is not dumping 40 billion a month in the stock market, he is buying Bonds (not stocks) in the bond markets.

3.  The Fed is pumping money into the economy because the 1%ers are hoarding their $$$ and not investing in the economy.  SOMEBODY has to spend $$$ to keep the ship afloat.  If not the private sector, then government has to.  

4:  OK, I missed the connection between QE3 and buying Greek and Spanish bonds?  You’ll have to elaborate on that one :?

5:  Since our beeks seem to have PhD’s in finance, economics, politics, and investing, I’m sure y’all predicted all this BEFORE hand and made 38% return on your money since Obama took over?  Right?  Yeah, you can't hear me, but I'm on the ground laughing :laugh:  Since there is no end in sight to QE’s, I assume our beeks are NOW putting their money where their mouth is too?  :-D

6.  If everybody else in the world is printing money, isn’t this really a zero sum game?    

7.  We’re not going to see much inflation here because much (if not most) of the cost of goods and services is labor.  Salaries for the 99%ers are not going up, so we won’t have much inflation.  As the CEOs take more and more money, it comes from the worker’s take home pay.  Workers will be making less and less which caps inflation.  

8.  “Obama inches ahead in key voter polls”:  Christian Science Monitor.  When will beeks start basing their opinions on facts?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on September 17, 2012, 05:57:53 am
Thanks BlueBee, could not have put that better. 

Facts, or should we say truth, can be quite disruptive (if not darn right disappointing) to those choosing to live in a fantasy world, regardless of the fantasy chosen. 

All sides (choosing sides generally condemns or demonizes the other side) are affected. 

It is most unfortunate that this place has so many examples  :(

t
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 17, 2012, 10:21:31 am

they have made the change from activist marching group, to practical working group.  marching in parks has limited effect in the long run.  supporting candidates, both with time and with fundraising, gets people elected.

Are we a "he who spends the most money, wins" nation? Romney and his super pacs are far outspending Obama and yet we are not really seeing it bettering his position. He appears to be loosing ground actually.

If he looses it will completely change the game in 2016. After the SCOTUS ruling in favor of "Corporate Individualism" we have seen unprecedented Corporate spending on this election. If that extra money can't buy an election it will be a good message to send to Corporate America.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 17, 2012, 01:36:52 pm
actually, he's buying mortgage backed securities.  you know, those things that everyone says caused the banks, markets, etc. to tank?  tank around the world?  besides, it really doesn't matter what he's buying.  he's buying it with printed money and further devaluing the dollar. 

sure the fed is independent.....in a pigs eye.  as much as i dislike ron paul, he's absolutely correct that the fed needs to be audited and reined in.  he'd get rid of it.  i'd sure investigate it!
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 17, 2012, 01:50:12 pm
The Federal Reserve has already been audited. It was done in July of 2011 I believe. It showed that the FED magically created 16 trillion US dollars and gave it to major banks between 2007 and 2010.

Here is the report from Bernie Sanders office https://secure.vermont.gov/DPS/sor/search.php

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on September 17, 2012, 01:50:43 pm
Does anyone know who (which banks) sits (controls) at the Fed?

Don't you think we should know?

What would Romney/Paul Ryan do w/ the Fed?

t
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 17, 2012, 03:09:18 pm
Quote
The Federal Reserve has already been audited

they do internal audits.  that's not the same as doing a public audit. 

bernie sanders?  really??

http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/federalbanks/Federal_Reserve_Banks.htm (http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/federalbanks/Federal_Reserve_Banks.htm)

regional fed reserve banks.

http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/federalbanks/Federal_Reserve_Banks.htm (http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/federalbanks/Federal_Reserve_Banks.htm)
Quote
If he looses it will completely change the game in 2016. After the SCOTUS ruling in favor of "Corporate Individualism" we have seen unprecedented Corporate spending on this election.

you assume that this money goes to romney?  not so.  this president has engaged in corporate cronyism on an unprecedented scale.  there is a reason that so many wall street people donate to him.  there is a reason that company presidents like Costcos, sing his praises.

that said, why should corporations not participate?  what the government does with regulations and tax, has impact on business.  if the government is going to impact business, then business should be able to impact government.  get the two out of the same rack and you can make a case for not having business pump money into elections.


Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 17, 2012, 04:44:48 pm
Yes Sanders... I sourced his site because it was an easily available report from a ligit source.
The audit was preformed by the Government Accountability Office. It was not an Internal Audit. It was done based on Legislation attached by Ron Paul (R) and Jim Demitt (R) as an amendment to the "Dodd/Frank Bill. 

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 17, 2012, 05:15:10 pm


you assume that this money goes to romney?  not so.  this president has engaged in corporate cronyism on an unprecedented scale.  there is a reason that so many wall street people donate to him.  there is a reason that company presidents like Costcos, sing his praises.

that said, why should corporations not participate?  what the government does with regulations and tax, has impact on business.  if the government is going to impact business, then business should be able to impact government.  get the two out of the same rack and you can make a case for not having business pump money into elections.

I am not assuming... It is easily searchable which PAC's are spending the most money and who they are favoring. The larger portion of money in this campaign is being spent by Pro-Romney groups.

 
Corporations have always participated... it is called a Lobby. Now they have spending freedom which extends much farther than the common citizen can spend. We have contribution limits... they don't... They can spend as much as they like...

Why do you think "bailouts" go to major banks and companies?  Because they fund politicians... Reverse the tables and you might actaully start to see real change in this country.

I say take all the money out of Elections... Cap them at the public funding limit. That is all they can spend... When they run out of money they better start going door to door like the old days. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 17, 2012, 05:30:25 pm
Quote
I sourced his site because it was an easily available report from a ligit source

you know your link goes to the vermont sex offender registry?   :evil:

a GAO audit is not good enough. the GAO uses the numbers it is given.  that's why their estimates on various programs change so often.  we need an independent and public audit outside the govenrment and with the FR required to open it's books.

Quote
I say take all the money out of Elections... Cap them at the public funding limit.

there should not be a public funding limit. there should not be public funding.  why are taxpayers paying for election ads and crap??  let the money flow from whatever sources there are in the private sector...including business....if people or businesses don't want to donate, it's up to them.
a better solution to your complaints is to get government off the backs of, and out of the funding/rescuing of, business.  if that were done, there would be no need for either lobbyists or PACs. 



Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 18, 2012, 11:21:36 am
Haha... That is funny... here is the real link: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3 (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3)

Public funding of elections is optional... You mark that box on your taxes (or somebody marks it for you) yes or no... When candidates opt out to lift the limits no public funds are spent... lately nobody uses the public funds.

I have to disagree with you on your point about lifting limits on Campaign contributions and allowing any person or business throw as much money as they want into what ever ring they want. This is a battle we have been fighting for years... Put limits on donor contributions and major companies start making a max donation in the name of every employee they have. Outlaw that practice and they realize they can buy up as many hrs as they want as a PAC and flood the media outlets with mostly blatant lies and half truths to attempt to sway the electorate in their favor. I have no issue with freedom of speech... but keep everybody accountable for what they say... Make the amount of money they are spending public... make them attach their business/personal name to  the Rhetoric they are pushing..

On the Fed Audit: Afterwards; then what? I think anybody who cares already knows that our entire monetary system is fictional. We run a National Debt when we have an agency which can ,and does, create and distribute as much money as it wants, when it wants. The Debt isn't real... It is maintained because "Interest Payments" is a phrase that goes over better with the public than "Foreign Aid". The only part of the economy the Fed fails to manage well is Consumer Confidence... And I am sure one day they will get that ironed out as well.   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 18, 2012, 12:02:47 pm
Quote
On the Fed Audit: Afterwards; then what? I think anybody who cares already knows that our entire monetary system is fictional. We run a National Debt when we have an agency which can ,and does, create and distribute as much money as it wants, when it wants. The Debt isn't real... It is maintained because "Interest Payments" is a phrase that goes over better with the public than "Foreign Aid". The only part of the economy the Fed fails to manage well is Consumer Confidence... And I am sure one day they will get that ironed out as well.   

the primary reason is that we have a right to know.  secondary is that i still have a small bit of faith that if the people are loud enough, they get the attention of those looking for a vote.

one step at a time...?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on September 18, 2012, 01:21:26 pm
Yeah, those Occupancy folks can get pretty loud  ;)

t
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 18, 2012, 02:34:07 pm
1:  It’s not Obama dumping 40 billion a month in the stock market, it’s Mr Bernanke.  He’s the head of the Fed; an independent gov agency. 

http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg/article/Fed-s-Evans-Says-QE3-Can-Make-Economy-More-3874332.php (http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg/article/Fed-s-Evans-Says-QE3-Can-Make-Economy-More-3874332.php)

Before you jump to the old “Right Wing Nut” defense people on the left trot out every time they are confronted with the facts, notice that this news item first appeared in the SAND FRANCISCO CRONICLE.  That is the same paper BTW that first reported (In 2007) on Obama’s plan to cause electricity (And all other forms of energy) to “Necessarily skyrocket.”  Tell that to your unemployed UAW neighbors in Michigan and then you and the UAW will both know where the jobs went to and how to get them back in Michigan where they belong.  On January 20 2009 the day that Obama took office, the price of gasoline was $1.80 per gallon.  It is now flirting with (if not exceeding) $4 per gallon for the second time in just the last couple of months.

Also notice in the above clip that your Mr. Bernanke says that the FED intends Obams’s third round of Quantitative Easing to help the government bond market…. IN EUROPE!  You do know where that is don’t you?   Hint, dude you can’t get there from Michigan without a BIG pair of hip waders.  Well Spain and Greece are also in Europe. 

The purchase of ASSETS is just another way of saying STOCKS.  Who’s laughing now?  Besides your view of the rich sounds like Scrooge McDuck taking a dip in his a big old pile ‘o’ coins and cash or elsee makes it sound like the rich hoard cash like a Mexican drug lord.  Neither you nor I are that simple minded… Are you? ! ? ! ? !

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 18, 2012, 05:27:52 pm
What were the gas prices in April 2008? A barrel of oil on the exchange at that time was $140.00... today it is $96.00. The gas price argument had a lot of pull in 2004, but today it isn't a hot issue because people don't blame the president for gas prices any longer. Gas prices started climbing in 2001 and went nothing but up until 2008 when the market crash brought the price down...Bush still holds the record for highest increase in gas prices during his Administration... Now the market has rebound and prices are back up again... I just drive less.. I have a car that gets over 40 mpg... I have a truck that gets about 10 MPG... The car gets driven much more than the truck when prices get up over $3.00 a gallon.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 18, 2012, 06:31:33 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/natalie-pace/oil-imports_b_1854832.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/natalie-pace/oil-imports_b_1854832.html)

The über liberal left wing Huffington Post reports that foreign oil usage under President Barrack Husain Obama is lower that it was under any year of the George Walker Bush Administration.  The data the Huffington Post quotes goes back to 1997.  This was a full four years before G.W. Bush was President but it also goes 4 years back into Bill Clinton’s Administration.  The trouble is that Obama has done everything possible to discourage any and all energy usage and production in the United States except for his money wasting and unrealistic green energy programs.

This selective use of the facts by the Huffington Post  only serves to highlight how far Barrack Obama has run our economy into the ground parcially to help Third World Countries feel better about their own high poverty levels in relation to the standard of living in this country.   The only question is how far will we allow our own standard of living to fall or to be trashed before we take action to stop the slide. 

Obama is trashing the USA to to make the "Dreams from My Father" Obama talkes about in his book of the same name become a reality.  Do you dream one day of sharing your living quarters with your very own goat?  If you can't dream any higher than that them Obama is the man of your dreams.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 18, 2012, 06:47:07 pm
I’ve never owned a goat, but I hear some people are quite fond of them.

Kingbee, you ever visited Appalachia?  Lots of new millionaires in Western PA and Eastern Ohio would disagree that Obama is limiting production.  Problem is most of the new shale fields are natural gas; not liquids.  We need liquids to run our cars and trucks and hence we’re still slaves to the middle east.  The 1%ers won’t let Obama drill on their waterfront estates, so the best he can do is cut liquid consumption via conservation.  He increased the CAFÉ standards for cars and trucks for the first time in about 20 years.  That and using 40% of our corn for fuel, does make a dent :)     
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 18, 2012, 06:59:41 pm
Quote
I just drive less.. I have a car that gets over 40 mpg... I have a truck that gets about 10 MPG... The car gets driven much more than the truck when prices get up over $3.00 a gallon.

and are you satisfied with that?  will you be happy to eat less as food prices rise, or do less of whatever as the economy and the dollar continue to collapse? QE3 was yet another attempt to stave off that collapse.  you can't pump forever.  what happens when there is no value left in the dollar? what happens as our credit rating is lowered yet again?  what happens when we can't pay the debt or the debt is called?  what happens when the debtor nations sell off the dollar because it's not worth enough to keep?
what happens when the middle east blows up, as i believe it will over the next few years, and we have not built the pipeline, drilled, etc?  what happens to trade if instead of a few somali pirates, we have an entire islamist region demanding tribute on the high seas, across air space, or land routes.....as we have cut our navy to the bone and can't keep up with their combined forces?

Quote
That and using 40% of our corn for fuel, does make a dent

makes quite a hole in our food prices too.  especially when we and others have had a bad year of harvest. 

Quote
The 1%ers won’t let Obama drill on their waterfront estates,

really?  give me some examples.  the majority increase in oil drilling has come from 1.  drilling approved and started before obama was elected and 2. from private lands. in addition, his new regulations are destroying the coal industry and the US is a major source of high grade coal.

what is a 1% anyway?  someone who is successful?  what a rotten thing to be!!   



Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 18, 2012, 07:21:51 pm
Quote
I just drive less.. I have a car that gets over 40 mpg... I have a truck that gets about 10 MPG... The car gets driven much more than the truck when prices get up over $3.00 a gallon.

and are you satisfied with that?  will you be happy to eat less as food prices rise, or do less of whatever as the economy and the dollar continue to collapse? QE3 was yet another attempt to stave off that collapse.  you can't pump forever.  what happens when there is no value left in the dollar? what happens as our credit rating is lowered yet again?  what happens when we can't pay the debt or the debt is called?  what happens when the debtor nations sell off the dollar because it's not worth enough to keep?
what happens when the middle east blows up, as i believe it will over the next few years, and we have not built the pipeline, drilled, etc?  what happens to trade if instead of a few somali pirates, we have an entire islamist region demanding tribute on the high seas, across air space, or land routes.....as we have cut our navy to the bone and can't keep up with their combined forces?
 

It has nothing to do with the President as history has indicated. You want lower fuel costs? Start with the State and attack them on the taxes they levy against gasoline... Nobody complains about the .48 or so cent tax that states put on gasoline (Prices very by state) The bottom line is that regardless of who is President, the price of gas is going to be what it is going to be. Crude is a limited resource and countries compete for it... Investors speculate on supply v. Demand and they drive the prices...

As far as all the wind turbines going up everywhere... tell the riggers, the welders, the truck drivers, the concrete workers, the line men who are on those projects that they are a waste of money. Drill baby drill? Shell released an article two days ago that they just received the green light to drill a new area in Alaska... You search new US oil well starts on google and you get 1000s of recent articles on the topic. There is all kinds of drilling going on in North Dakota right now... I know several people who have moved their for work.

On food prices: those are directly related to cost of production and that is cyclical. Cost rise to ship from the west coast to the east... prices rise, people seek alternative foods... local farmers get a boost and increase production prices level out. We do not produce a fraction of what the USA is capable of producing... and we throw away about 40% of what is currently produced.

On the value of the US dollar: It has no value and hasn't in years... As long as I am willing to take it as payment for services surrendered, and you are willing to take it also, and the guy down the street will take it... it doesn't matter that it doesn't have value.

On the National Debt...  Like I said before... It doesn't really exist. And also on that front the lower the US credit ratting gets... The better for the people who scream about the national debt all the time... Because Congress will be forced to stop spending money they can't barrow. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 18, 2012, 10:13:44 pm
Quote
Start with the State and attack them on the taxes they levy against gasoline... Nobody complains about the .48 or so cent tax that states put on gasoline (Prices very by state)

i do.  especially when it goes into the general slush fund.
Quote
The bottom line is that regardless of who is President, the price of gas is going to be what it is going to be. Crude is a limited resource and countries compete for it... Investors speculate on supply v. Demand and they drive the prices...

first part wrong.  second part right.  the first part is wrong on a couple of points.  when you have a president who restricts supply in this country, he, at the least, is not going to bring prices down.  if you have a president who badly misjudges the middle ease, his policies are going to drive the price up. 
on the second, see the 1st.  if the supply is up because we are drilling more, the price goes down.  even when we say we are going to drill more, the price goes down.  remember when bush said he was going to open more off shore and federal lands to drilling?
Quote
As far as all the wind turbines going up everywhere... tell the riggers, the welders, the truck drivers, the concrete workers, the line men who are on those projects that they are a waste of money

not the point if the return does not exceed the cost...and what car takes wind in it's tank?

Quote
Drill baby drill? Shell released an article two days ago that they just received the green light to drill a new area in Alaska... You search new US oil well starts on google and you get 1000s of recent articles on the topic. There is all kinds of drilling going on in North Dakota right now... I know several people who have moved their for work.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/9547566/Shell-delays-offshore-drilling-in-Alaskan-Arctic.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/9547566/Shell-delays-offshore-drilling-in-Alaskan-Arctic.html)
the shell drilling is on hold. 
again, not the point. 
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/statistics/Table08.html (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/statistics/Table08.html)

yes, there are many wells being drilled, but on state and private land out of the reach of the feds.  why is the number higher than the Clinton years and before?  because the tech is better at finding and reaching new finds.

Quote
On the value of the US dollar: It has no value and hasn't in years... As long as I am willing to take it as payment for services surrendered, and you are willing to take it also, and the guy down the street will take it... it doesn't matter that it doesn't have value.

only true if you are trading pretty shells for pig brains.  makes a big difference if you are involved in international trade and it impacts the price of oil.

Quote
On the National Debt...  Like I said before... It doesn't really exist. And also on that front the lower the US credit ratting gets... The better for the people who scream about the national debt all the time... Because Congress will be forced to stop spending money they can't barrow. 

greece will be interested to hear that it doesn't matter.  so will china.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on September 23, 2012, 08:34:14 am
Imagine what the gas would cost if the economy was booming. The world economy is in the dumps and it's 4 dollars. If the economy was chugging along I can not imagine the price going down.
As far as corn  ,every bushel that goes into mandated ethanol does not feed one person. Directly or indirectly. The droughts of this past summer in the corn belts will not show up in food and fuel prices until next year probably.
The other stinker of ethanol in the fuel is that it reduces fuel economy.
Ethanol btu per gallon is  76000 versus 114000 for gasoline. Smoke and mirrors . You get cleaner burning but have to burn more of it.
With these games one day you may have to choose between eating and driving.But,if you make transportation to expensive for the individual it will be easier to corral the servants into the cities where they can be better managed. They will build fences to keep you in,not keep others out.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on September 23, 2012, 11:07:24 am
Quote
You get cleaner burning but have to burn more of it.

not even sure this part is true.  seems i heard somewhere that it spews more/different crap into the air.  will have to look  that up.

never mind what it does to our engines.  engine repair and replacement has probably been the one area of the economy helped by this junk. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on September 29, 2012, 02:00:29 am
...

Wow, I can’t believe you don’t know of anybody unemployed.  There are lots of lots of people in

Michigan in that boat and I know plenty...


This sort of thing reminds me of the old saw, "The country is doing fine because everyone I come into contact is doing well because if they aren't doing well I (BlueGrass) don't come into contact with them."

Of course since the State of Connecticut is a big player in the insurance business I suspect everyone in the Nutmeg State will be doing well or at least looking forwand to doing well in the new National Health Care Insurance racket.  Almost all of you will soon loose your employer provided health insurance like Sears employees did today.  Suck it up suckers.  Bon Apatite .

Lets play the health care inflation game.  I'll go first. 

In February of 1981 what was the hospital cost for labor and delivery with an incubator for the baby, a tubal, with a 5 day stay in the hospital?  Labor stretched over parts of 3 days.  The doctor bill had been paid in full before the hospital stay.  The only charges due were the hospital bill.  Any one want to play?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on September 30, 2012, 12:59:43 am
I have no idea Kingbee, but the cost today far exceeds the rate of inflation since 1981.  Hence the need to TRY something new to reign in the costs because it will eventually bankrupt us.  Nothing our Republican friends have done in the past 30 years have done diddy poo to rein in costs, hence it’s time to try something different. 

What do you call it when you try the SAME thing over and over and expect a different result?

Afterthought:  I guess Romney care was a successful Republican idea  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on September 30, 2012, 07:16:52 pm
Kingbee: When you put something in quotes (these things "") you are supported to actually quote word for word :roll:

My point is that the media sensationalizes joblessness in this Country. My second point was that due to the shift away from a manufacturing economy and a Unionized work force; unemployment numbers don't impact elections like they used to. A glance at the electoral college map show clearly that joblessness isn't really a factor for the electorate. Some of the states with the highest unemployment are leaning heavily for Obama. Examples are California, Nevada, Rhode Island, and New Jersey all at or above 10% and all leaning towards Obama. Lowest Unemployment in the country is North Dakota and that one isn't going for Obama... The Job numbers mean nothing in this election, contrary to Media Hype.

This election is about party Affiliation and nothing else. You can take all of what Romney has done and supported in his life and paste it on any Democrat and the people who are supporting Romney would make all kinds of Hay out of his record...

Sear's employees haven't lost their Health Insurance... They never had any.  Sears has always been a self payer and now they are giving their employees an Insurance Voucher (think along the lines of what the "Ryan budget" proposes for medicare)  so they can buy insurance.  Nice attempt at spin though.
 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 01, 2012, 06:19:08 pm
The well baby 5 day hospital bill and surgery on the wife, everything, lock, stock, and barrel, out the door was $1,800 31 years ago.  Anyone want to bet it's not over 30K in today's world of government mandated treatments, services, and hospital stays?

If you think the cost of life has gone up, on a sadder note, my mother pasted away on September 29 2012.  Yesterday me and her grandchildren made the funeral arrangements.  We used the same home we did for my father 28 years ago.  Before making my mother's arrangements I asked to see my father's funeral invoice.  In 28 years the cost of dying has rose 400%. 

The quantitative easing some of you seem to be so fond of is little more than a hidden but cruel tax on the life savings of the middle class.  At the same time the low intrest rates on deposits is just another way for Obama to use his class warfare pitard to blow the guts out of the middle class he claims he cares for.  At the same time he is double crossing teachers, and union members who have large amounts of IRA or pention fund monies on deposit.  Today the union members pentions are worth less than they were yesterday, and tomorrow will be worth less than they are today, and Obama has you blaiming... WAL-MART!!!  It would be funny if it were not so sad.   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 01, 2012, 11:12:42 pm
Sorry to hear about your Mom, Kingbee.  :(

It is odd how some things have skyrocketed well above inflation, but some haven’t.  My right wing friends may agree with my belief that a lot of this is form a lack of competition.  If competition was allowed to exit in those areas, the prices would be lower.  Am I on the right track?  :)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 02, 2012, 10:04:34 am
Anybody stop and think about what your income was in 1980 compared to today?

Census data shows the average household income in 1980 $16,523, average for 2011 49,103.

That is a 300% increase. So the cost of dying hasn't really risen all that much.

I am getting donated to science... Unless my family at that time wants to buy a plot or headstone for an empty grave my death will cost them nothing.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 02, 2012, 10:11:26 am
Anybody stop and think about what your income was in 1980 compared to today?

Census data shows the average household income in 1980 $16,523, average for 2011 49,103.

That is a 300% increase.
Yea that was after four years of Jimmy Carter. 20 years of republicans and the last four years of Clinton shows a big improvement in our economic welfare and now another Carter in control and things are in decline.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 02, 2012, 10:19:59 am
The well baby 5 day hospital bill and surgery on the wife, everything, lock, stock, and barrel, out the door was $1,800 31 years ago.  Anyone want to bet it's not over 30K in today's world of government mandated treatments, services, and hospital stays?
  
I will bet it isn't.. 4 years ago it cost us $6800.00 for a C-section and three day hospital stay. On April 15th 2013 I will be able to report back on what it cost now. It will be higher than that because of our geographic location now compared to 2008, but I doubt it will be 30K... Probably closer to 12 K.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 02, 2012, 10:45:43 am
Anybody stop and think about what your income was in 1980 compared to today?

Census data shows the average household income in 1980 $16,523, average for 2011 49,103.

That is a 300% increase.
Yea that was after four years of Jimmy Carter. 20 years of republicans and the last four years of Clinton shows a big improvement in our economic welfare and now another Carter in control and things are in decline.

Okay so lets look at the trend:
1976 average was $11308
1980 average was $ 16523
That is a difference of $5215 (carter Admin)

1980 to 1984 average of $20935, that is a difference of $4412

1984 to 1988 average of $25664, that is a difference of $4729 (Reagan admin)
Dang... good thing Reagan saved us :shock:

1988- 1992 average of $29448 differences of $3784 (Bush 1)

1992- 1996 Average of $34652, Difference of $5204 (Clinton)

1996-2000 Average of $41186, difference of $6534 (Clinton)

2000-2004 Average of $43497 difference of $2311 (Bush 2)

2004-2008 Average of $49341 difference of $ $5844 (Bush 2)




Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 02, 2012, 02:29:12 pm
Now-Now, lets be fair and compair oranges to oranges.  Since Barrack Hussain Obama was elected, American household income has not increased, even by the small amounts it did under Bush 2.  And President Carter should be BlueBee's favorite all time President since he presided over an economy with 20% annual inflation even though the annual household income only increased by about 10% a year.

Now are you ready for this?  Under his "Make the Evil American Devils" pay for their success policies, the annual US family household income has shrunk by over $3,000 since President Obama's election to the nations highest office.  Please explain how a negative personal income entitles this President or anyother President 4 more years to perfect his policies of class warfare, class greed, and global income redistribution.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/fact-check-income-losses-under-obama/ (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/fact-check-income-losses-under-obama/)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 02, 2012, 03:00:56 pm
To be fair I used the census numbers for 4 year for all the rest of the Presidents I listed. We only have 3 years of numbers for Obama, the 2012 numbers are not out yet. Your source only used 2 years of numbers for Obama and they state that in Paragraph three... The two worst years in this recession I might add. So when the official numbers are out for 4 years... We can re-asses the situation... To Be Fair ;)

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 02, 2012, 07:49:39 pm
Hoo Hoo!!!!
Lets not figure in what the trial lawyers have contributed to the cost of medicine!! They are an untouchable Holy Grail for some reason. In all the talk of Health care cost reform,no where is the cost of trial lawyers brought into the equation.  Its only the insurance companies!! Perhaps the insurance companies payouts in huge settlements are a factor? Just assuming risk is costly. Which also drives more extensive testing than necessary because a doctor has to cover all bases for fear of being sued.
And how about the people that tie up ER's because they have a headache or a dang ole runny nose. And then demanding antibiotics for something only time will heal. And I can't tell you how many nights while listening to the scanner that I hear ambulance calls for headaches ,toothaches and the like. Not that these wastes of resources cost anything. I've even heard calls for a return trip because they still have a headache . Sometimes the people themselves need to suck it up and quit being seekers of instant gratification. We are becoming a nation of sissies that help drive up costs unnecessarily.
  And  on another tangent,a lot of the costs are associated with a fast changing medical technological breakthroughs. New inventions cost money, and the company that invested hundreds of millions to bring it to market are entitled to a profit.
How many services are provided today on an outpatient or same day surgery that previously would have left you in the hospital for a week?
 It is only profit in the private sector that makes these changes in treatment available. If the government gets any more involved I can only see it stifling innovation and creativity. And I can see a lot of these tech companies moving into other fields away from the medical industry.
That will be a plus for all, more equal but lousy treatment options.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 02, 2012, 07:55:06 pm
And back to the original post of the VP pick,he is a step in the right direction,hopefully he will participate in budget conversations. But sadly,these two are not conservative enough or Constitutionalist enough to gain my total favor. Compared to the current occupants I give them a thumbs up.
But I think they  will only be slowing the financial bus from running off the cliff. Hopefully we get a House of Representatives with the guts to slam the brakes and put the bus in reverse.We can no longer afford to borrow 40 cents of every dollar spent. Nor could we ever. It is not fair to the future generations who will have to pay it back without having had any say in how it was spent.
If we need to shut the government down,so be it.I am sick and tired of it always being the taxpayer who has to do with less in lean times and the government continuing spending like it has no real need to stop.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 02, 2012, 09:59:55 pm
He will not be participating in any conversation unless he wins his congressional seat and looses as VP. VP's only active roll is presiding over the Senate. Matters of the budget take place in Congress.

I think as VP Ryan will be largely unheard. Romney will drive his own bus once President and in his own direction... A direction similar to the direction he went in MA.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 03, 2012, 07:56:50 pm
I believe Romney and Ryan may talk over budget ideas. And there may be times that the tie breaker vote may be needed.Just depending on Senate elections.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 03, 2012, 11:28:01 pm
VPs have an active a roll as the president chooses them to have.  if you have an FDR type, they have none. if you have a reagan, they have more.  it is true that they have no vote, but that's not the same as saying they have no influence.  in addition, they are often, as we see ryan doing now, sent out to articulate the position of the team.  ryan does that well.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 04, 2012, 04:42:12 am
Hoo Hoo!!!!  ...and how about the people that tie up ER's because they have a headache or a dang ole runny nose. And then demanding antibiotics for something only time will heal...

This is the fault of the American people and it is their fault alone.  While you and I were spazing over the I Love Lucy Show, Fretting about who shot JR, going gaga over Lady Gaga, or wondering about other weighty issues like if Liz Taylor was a Clairol Girl, the Nanny Staters changed the name of the game from health care to preventive medcine without any of you noticing.  Nowadays, a Doctor is supposed to "Mannage" your health care, not cure you.  Many General Practitioners have a 4 to 6 week waiting period just for the next appointment date.  If you try to see most doctors now days without an appointment, say for a cut, sprain, or fever, the doc is just going to tell you to, "Go to the ER, act like your crazy, take a number and wait."
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 04, 2012, 07:48:39 am
Per my quote above Kingbee,these are situations that need to take their course,not a trip to a medical professional. It is equivalent to calling an electrician to plug in an extension cord.
 Most insurance companies have had to raise co pays to ERs substantially to deter the trips that chicken soup and a little rest do just as much to relieve.
 But of course the ones on medicaid often do not have these deductibles,so the abuse can continue.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 04, 2012, 09:42:08 am
a national health plan won't fix it either.  the waiting will be increased, not reduced.  the ER will still be the first choice of the impatient and lazy.

we have a health care provider in town that i am very familiar with.  they have a fee for missing an appointment and not calling in.  this encourages people to show up and more people can be served.  they are not allowed to charge that fee to medicaid people.  guess which people will routinely schedule appointments and not show?   those are time slots that are wasted for provider and patients. 

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 04, 2012, 10:09:18 am
a national health plan won't fix it either.  the waiting will be increased, not reduced.  the ER will still be the first choice of the impatient and lazy.


In the last 15 years I have worked for 5 hospitals in various parts of the country. The majority of ED visitors get discharged straight from the ED. Most inpatients are Direct Admits from their PCPs or in cases of Trauma direct to the OR. No waiting at all.

I personally have made two visits to the ED in my life... Both required Sutures.. 30 on the first time and 5 on the second... Neither time did I have to wait in the waiting room... they didn't want me bleeding on the carpets... When you present to the ED you first see a triage nurse who assesses your condition and gives it a rating... The long waits go to those who are assessed as not needing to be there to begin with... Anybody in moderate to critical condition gets priority.   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 04, 2012, 08:05:48 pm
...
I personally have made two visits to the ED in my life... Neither time did I have to wait in the waiting room... The long waits go to those who are assessed as not needing to be there to begin with...    

For those of you who may or may not fall into the class 5 group (the least critical) after seeing the Triage Nurse or after the Triage nurse seeing you, here is a wee bit of advice.  If you try to pickup a still flopping catfish on the bottom of your boat and end up getting badly "finned," don't use your fish shears or wire cutters to cut the fin to free the still flopping fish from your hand.  I did that once and it was a mistake because I ended up waiting hours and hours in the waiting room.  But if I had walked into the ER with a 3 pound live cat fish firmly attached to my left hand by the barbed pectorial fin, I would have gone right into a treatment room if for no other reason than to keep the other people in the ER waiting room from freaking out.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: hardwood on October 05, 2012, 09:32:45 am
I would imagine the same for a snake bite!

Scott
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 05, 2012, 10:10:22 am
If I were the Triage Nurse that day I would have snipped the fin, planted you back in the waiting room and had the fish for lunch  :-D
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 05, 2012, 10:17:06 am
 :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 05, 2012, 10:34:33 am
I would also inform the Kingbee that noodling is illegal in most states  ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 05, 2012, 08:18:28 pm
I would also inform the Kingbee that noodling is illegal in most states ...

Boy.... we Southerns have a diffrent view of game laws, than y'all Yankees.  Noodling illegal!!!  Why you could just as well try and outlaw Elianor Roosevelt for all the good it would do.  I have deer hunted with old timers that I would not go to their stand if I heard a shot.  At least not before returning my UNLOADED gun to the truck or hiding it in the woods because when I got to his stand I never knew what gender or age Bambi I would find.

Aah, contrair messieurs, BlueBee & Bluegrass.  Women make us men do bocu stupid things, oui?  I was the jigger poll angling for le shell cracker and hooked instead (barely) la cat fishy.  When I boated her the hook he slipped out of the mouth.  Herr Katzfish was ga-flopping in der bottom of zee boat like... well like a fishy out of water.  I being descended from a long line of stout, no nonsense Red Necks hung back, watching and waiting.

Then my adrenalin junkey wife the triage Nurse shouted, "Don't let him get away!!!"  So like all dutiful husbands since Adam first shook the apple tree for Eve, I pounced on la kitty fishy with the bare hand.  The first words out of my wife's mouth was, "Oh Honey, I'm sorry, I didn't know that those fins were barbed."  I will spare your tender ears the first words out of my own mouth.  :-P  :-P  :-P
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 06, 2012, 01:08:27 am
You can do all the noodling you want up this way, not illegal as far as I know. You just will not catch anything. We don't have those big cats like you have down south. We have Horned Pout (bull heads) and the occasional Channel cat, but none of the monster Flats and Blues.

Now limb and trot lining you wouldn't want to get caught doing around here... They frown on that.     
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 06, 2012, 02:13:24 am
Kingbee, it sounds like we might need to report you to PETA too  ;)

Maybe there should be more questions and a test before we allow people to hunt and fish ?  After all, what is wrong with a few more questions (ala voter ID)...... :-D   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 06, 2012, 04:03:13 am
... what is wrong with a few more questions [before we allow you to fish or hunt.

Now I wasn't in the congregation that morning or even a member of this church, but back in the 60s a preacher told me that his entire male audience got up and left the church one Sunday morning when a late comer said that as he was arriving a doe deer crossed the road a 1/2 mile from the church.  :-D

I'm glad to know that it is legal to hand fish, grapple, or noodle up 'thair'.  I was a'fraid that the reason they didn't want folks sticking their hands under cut banks was because they were a'fraid someone would interupt the eternal sleep of James Hoffa Sr. or maybe New York Judge Joseph Force Carter.  :-D :shock:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 06, 2012, 10:32:19 pm
I would imagine the same for a snake bite!

You mean if you still had old No Shoulders chewing on your fingers like they were a cigar? 

Well hardwood, in that case I'M OUT OF THERE TOO.  :shock:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 07, 2012, 10:35:04 am
Hmm,
I am a Peta supporter.

People eating tasty animals.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 09, 2012, 02:10:45 pm
... we have a health care provider in town that i am very familiar with.  they have a fee for missing an appointment and not calling in...

That is the crux of the problem.  How far in advance must you know when or if you will be feeling poorly or have a booboo on your pinkey finger, so you can make an appointment to see your personal doctor?  Regardless of who you see, your family doc, the ER doc, or a Nurse Preaticioner play doc, they are going to sling two aspirins or a handfull of sutures your way.  Its sometimes called "Treat and Street" at least when the customer isn't within ear shot.  kathyp, My feeling is that if a customer with say a fish hook in his hand walked in the door of the doctor you mentioned, the receptionist would redirect that customer to the ER defore she or he asked for his name. 

The doctor patient relationship has been destroyed when no one was looking and it will never recover or be the same relationship it was before Congress, our Presidents, and the Court System came between you and your doctor.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 12, 2012, 02:10:20 pm
Back to the VP Pick! The airways are a buzz with Biden's thorough trouncing of Ryan in last nights debate... The VP debates don't move polls anyway, but I am shocked at the surprise that news outlets seem to be portraying... Biden is a seasoned Politician and he did exceptionally well in the Debate with Palin 4 years ago..

Ryan on the other hand has spent 13 years in Congress accomplishing nothing... well almost nothing... he did get a post office renamed.  Not a single bill he drafted is law today...
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 12, 2012, 02:12:55 pm
Quote
The airways are a buzz with Biden's thorough trouncing of Ryan in last nights debate

something is interfering with the signal that you are pulling in.   :evil:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 12, 2012, 02:50:42 pm

Quote
The airways are a buzz with Biden's thorough trouncing of Ryan in last nights debate

Even nonpolitical types are telling me that they are aghast that the horse's pattotie knows as Vice-President Joe Biden is a heart beat away from the job of President.

Biden may have shoveled a lot of mangled red meat into the cages of the people who make up the Democrat Party's base, but his clown like performance didn't win over a single uncommitted voter because they typically are more educated, more articulate and more thoughtful than Joe Biden.

I also have not heard a single political commentator (not even the MSNBC Rachel Maddog types) claim any such victory.

However I do have a likely reason or maybe it is an excuse for Obama's poor showing in the October 6th debate.  Michelle is riding his butt again to give up tobacco!!! He sure looked to me like he could use a long drag on a Kingsize Kool.  :evil:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 12, 2012, 03:11:19 pm


I also have not heard a single political commentator (not even the MSNBC Rachel Maddog types) claim any such victory.

I tend to avoid our own mainstream media... This poll shows a clear "winner"
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/vpdebate-online-verdict-0022368 (http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/vpdebate-online-verdict-0022368)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 12, 2012, 03:31:07 pm
""Maybe there should be more questions and a test before we allow people to hunt and fish ?""

Bluebee, Here in NC, a democrat controlled state, you have to go to gun safety class to hunt a squirrel and kill it.

You don't have to go if you want to buy a gun to kill a yankee.   :fishhit: :lau: :lau: :lau:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Vance G on October 12, 2012, 04:07:54 pm
I was not a Romney fan and was fairly ticked that I was going to have to vote for him because the young Marxist's mission to destroy this country must at least be slowed.  His appointment of Ryan, a solid conservative and a first rate mind gave me hope.  Romney's debate with aforementioned Marxist gave me confidence that the Republic might possibly be re established!  Ryan was too content to let Biden demonstrate his mastery of bullying and buffoonerly.  But, it was two against one with the moderator leading and bailing out good old Joe regularly.  All, in All, I have hope and was happy with Ryans performance. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 12, 2012, 05:50:58 pm
I myself am not on the fence. But today I talked to a couple people that were on the fence. The Obama debate had them teetering,but Bidens performance left them fearful that if something happened to Obama that we could be left with a real nut case running the country. these people had never really known or paid attention to Biden before but were shocked about his performance last night. He was a real deal sealer one way or the other.
 One had commented that they felt sorry for his family after a public demonstration like that and mentioned that he bets his wife would never have allowed a student to act that way.
  I did not see much of it,but I intend to see a replay this weekend somewhere.But from what I've heard the moderator might well have been another debater with the Obama team.
I can say over the years that Jim Lehrer has been one of the more fair moderators.Others should learn from him.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 12, 2012, 06:22:04 pm
as one who plays on AJ quite a bit, this is priceless!!

Quote
This poll shows a clear "winner"
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/vpdebate-online-verdict-0022368 (http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/vpdebate-online-verdict-0022368)

now there's an unbiased opinion for you!!   :lau:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 12, 2012, 07:12:54 pm
as one who plays on AJ quite a bit, this is priceless!!

Quote
This poll shows a clear "winner"
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/vpdebate-online-verdict-0022368 (http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/vpdebate-online-verdict-0022368)

now there's an unbiased opinion for you!!   :lau:

Go ahead and laugh... but social network polls are my go to for fair and balanced reporting.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 12, 2012, 07:44:15 pm
Social networks or not, I imagine most Hussein supporters go to AJ for their news. It will always be satisfying to the muslims and there supporters.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 12, 2012, 09:07:36 pm
HILLARY CLINTON said a couple years ago that :roll: Aljazeera is the only place to get the real news.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 12, 2012, 09:40:25 pm
HILLARY CLINTON said a couple years ago that :roll: Aljazeera is the only place to get the real news.

That probably is a pretty realistic statement... BBC 10-15 years ago used to be pretty unbiased, but even they aren't any longer... Aljezeera puts out some really good reporting especially if you are focusing on their "Americas" news.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 12, 2012, 10:42:02 pm
Quote
HILLARY CLINTON said a couple years ago that rolleyes Aljazeera is the only place to get the real news.

that might be true for her!

Quote
Aljezeera puts out some really good reporting especially if you are focusing on their "Americas" news.

they are very biased and usually inaccurate when it comes to reporting US news.  however...their comment sections are very good in that they allow very open debate.  they are far better at this than US left wing sites.  + the debate is usually more civil than on US left wing sites.  same slant but higher caliber of poster...most of the time.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 13, 2012, 12:53:05 am
If you feel you must go to Beirut Lebanon to get quality news and reporting from al Jazeria, is it any wonder then that America has lost so many manufacturing jobs over the last twenty years.  Because if as some of you say MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC and FNC are "manufacturing" trash and selling it as news, what then would you call (In Joe Biden's words) the "malarkey" coming out of Detroit and other centers of American Industry?  I view all social media networks as nothing but echo chambers whose sole value is their contributions on the fringes to a phantom median opinion.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 13, 2012, 09:24:02 pm
AN APPROPRIATE SUMMATION COULD BE DRAWN FROM THE RYAN/BIDEN DEBATE.
  "If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." --Proverbs 29:9



 (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/jokes/vhrbfctkbbjnfkbknkfptnqggynggkytmmpczfjgkhpyky_tjblphbjhpp_zpsd4cd2f00.jpg)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Keith13 on October 14, 2012, 05:21:00 pm
Biden reminded me of the cheshire cat. grinning like a fool
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 14, 2012, 09:17:38 pm
Biden reminded me of the cheshire cat. grinning like a fool

But wouldn't you be proud for him to be your president if something were to happen to Obama? :oops: :embarassed:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 15, 2012, 12:00:19 am
LOL, is there somebody the right wing beeks despise more than Obama?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 15, 2012, 12:33:08 am
i have watched Biden for a long time.  he's got a real nasty streak.  he gets away with it because of his aw shucks persona, but the real guy is a jerk.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 16, 2012, 12:01:46 am
i have watched Biden for a long time.  he's got a real nasty streak.  he gets away with it because of his aw shucks persona, but the real guy is a jerk.

In Joe Biden's lets say "performance" during the Vice Presidential debates I recognized another famous politician from America's past, former Alabama Governor George Wallace.  Joe Biden's and George Wallace's demeanor in debates are one and the same.   

A confrontational style is always the debating style one takes when you are defending what you know is a loosing proposition or a position that you KNOW is on the wrong side of history.  When "Defending" the indefensible you "Rope-a-dope" the clock as much as possible by interupting and talking out of turn to interupt the audience's train of though to keep the truth coming to light.  It's really a form of lying.  Biden's debate demeanor reminds me of a little boy changing the subject away from who was playing ball in the house when aunt Edna's antique Ming vase got broken.  The only other thing I can think of to describe Biden's behavior is to compair it to a cheating husband trying to change the subject away from the lip stick on his collar. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 16, 2012, 03:04:17 am
Y’all do remember the quality standard the GOP has set for VP candidates?  Right?  You know, those real deep thinkers that can’t spell potato and makes up a new story line for Paul Revere’s midnight ride.

I don’t really like Biden, but I would rather have him a heartbeat away than GOP stars like Quayle and Palin. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 16, 2012, 03:20:40 am
Given that the plural of potato is potatoes and that Biden manges the language not to mention the facts every day in ways that Jed Clampet can only dream about what is your point about Biden being better than Palin?

In fact Joe Biden would do well to take charm school as well as grammer lessons from Sara Palin.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 16, 2012, 12:22:44 pm
Quote
story line for Paul Revere’s midnight ride.

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/06/137011636/how-accurate-were-palins-comments-on-paul-revere (http://www.npr.org/2011/06/06/137011636/how-accurate-were-palins-comments-on-paul-revere)

you really need better info sources.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 16, 2012, 04:15:58 pm
... story line for Paul Revere’s midnight ride.


In fact I do seem to remember that Paul Revere was arrested by the Red Coats and they towed his horse, something about not having proof of insurance or parking in a handicapped zone or something like that, I don't know, maybe they confiscated his horse because Paul Revere was riding around the country side in the middle of the night (One and two o’clock) screaming at the top of his lungs, "To arms... to arms... the Red Coats are coming." 

My next question for our leftist beek friends is what language do you think the Red Coats 'sabad' back there in 1775, Klingon?  Every Red Coat within the sound of Paul Revere’s voice knew exactly what he was doing and that is why they tried to stop him?  By the way, Paul Revere was not the only patriot who was warning the colonist or to paraphrase H. W. Longfellow, "... spreading the alarm to every Middlesex village and farm."  Paul Revere had at least two accomplishes in his nefarious deed.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 17, 2012, 07:04:07 am
Could be worse.. at least she didn't take her family to New Hampshire to see the site where the Revolution started...
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 17, 2012, 03:25:52 pm
i bet she knows how many states there are....
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 17, 2012, 10:15:35 pm
Bachmann or Palin?

50 states plus
Guam
Puerto Rico
Samoa
Virgin Islands
Mariana Islands
Palau
Marshal Islands

=57 right?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on October 17, 2012, 10:29:00 pm
both-either.

you do know that those last 7 are not states?  no wonder you guys have a hard time with your politics! :evil:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 17, 2012, 10:32:37 pm
Kathy, you should know better than bother a Democrat with facts. They are irrelevant to them.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 18, 2012, 12:19:32 am
both-either.

you do know that those last 7 are not states?...

kathyp, some of them are not even territories, at least not anymore.

The “Anti-colonialist in chief” can’t even get that right.
The only organized possessions of the United States are; Guam, Puerto Rico, The U. S. Virgin Islands,  The Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa.  This would yield a total of 55 states and organized territories, supporting Obama’s biographer, Denish D’souza’s contention that Obama’s attempt to destroy the United States of America is driven by his irrational anti-colonialism. 

If you add; Midway Atoll, Palmyra Atoll, Wake Atoll, Baker and Howland Islands, Jarvis Island, Johnston Atoll, Kingman Reef, and Navassa Island, all unorganized possessions that would create an additional 8 territories, raising the total number of states and territories to 63. 


Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 18, 2012, 10:21:06 am
Kathy, you should know better than bother a Democrat with facts. They are irrelevant to them.

I was predicting a Bachmann or Palin response to the question of how many states their are :roll:

Iddee: I have never been and likely never will be a Democrat. My political leanings are in a continued effort to punish the Republican Party for the Bush years.... They put up Mitt, so apparently they didn't get the message... 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 18, 2012, 10:58:04 am
I might attempt to punish the bad, bad, bad at times, but it won't be by supporting the bad, bad, bad, bad, bad side of the coin.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 18, 2012, 11:50:56 am
This time around heads or tails doesn't matter. We are flipping a double headed trick coin.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 18, 2012, 12:07:45 pm
This time around heads or tails doesn't matter. We are flipping a double headed trick coin.
If you can not see any difference in the two presidential tickets you prolly don't need to vote anyway.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 18, 2012, 01:25:45 pm
You probably didn't spend your time during the Romney Gov run in a neighboring state hearing his campaign ads on the radio, or reading about his Governorship in the News paper.  ;)

He is one heck of a chamelion I will give him that, he has a knack for telling people he is talking to exactly what they want to hear. Policy wise, his actions are in many ways very similar to Obama's. So we are left with the old choice of believe what he says or judge what he did.

His success was in Fooling the base during the primary, now the Party is so focused on getting a R in the Whitehouse they don't care what his policies are, they are voting for him anyway... 

A Romney Admin will reflect similar policies as we currently have with a cronyism similar to what we saw with Bush JR. Gov contracts galore for Companies he was previously associated with... One more expensive lesson for the Party with little chance they will learn anything.     
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 19, 2012, 02:15:15 pm
>A Romney Admin will reflect similar policies as we currently have with cronyism

I have a hard time accepting anything you say about Romney after reading some of your other leftist comments about this and other subjects.
Even if the cronyism you speak of were true, cronyism is not our only or most important thing going on in this country. Things like energy independence, foreign policy, SS, medicare and welfare reform and a host of other things need to be delt with and it is obvious the guy running things now has proved he is not capable of dealing with them.
When a head coach of a big football school doesn't win he is replaced or a big company is loosing money the CEO is fired and that is in order here.
There are no guaranties but we have got to try someone else.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 19, 2012, 04:34:22 pm
Quote
I have a hard time believing anything you say about Romney after reading some of your other leftist comments
I will vouch for Bluegrass.  What he says is reality.

Isn’t it funny how the Republican party keeps going more and more right wing yet they keep on nominating moderates and liberals for the top of their ticket.  Heck if I were to pick any Republican as my choice for President it would be Romney!  Doesn’t that tell our right wings beeks something about Romney!

I don’t see a Romney admin being much different than an Obama admin either; what I’m more concerned about is getting the right wingers out of Congress.   That’s where they do the most damage.  

Quote
When a head coach of a big football school doesn’t win he is replaced
This is TRUE, unfortunately many times you end up with somebody much WORSE.  Rich Rodriguez turned the winning-est program in college football into a joke :(  

Quote
Or  a big company is losing money the CEO is fired
LOL, are you kidding me?  What a joke!   CEOs don’t get fired for bad decisions.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 19, 2012, 06:12:19 pm
 """I will vouch for Bluegrass.  What he says is reality."""    :lau: :lau: :lau:

I would put more faith in Bluegrass than Bluebee. At least his posts are plausible, even if they are ridiculous.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: JPBEEGETTER on October 19, 2012, 06:22:54 pm
 Finish line  AMEN
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: JPBEEGETTER on October 19, 2012, 06:24:26 pm
And to close   supper time  down south


Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 19, 2012, 08:13:24 pm
Quote
I have a hard time believing anything you say about Romney after reading some of your other leftist comments
I will vouch for Bluegrass.  What he says is reality.

Isn’t it funny how the Republican party keeps going more and more right wing yet they keep on nominating moderates and liberals for the top of their ticket.  Heck if I were to pick any Republican as my choice for President it would be Romney!  Doesn’t that tell our right wings beeks something about Romney!

I don’t see a Romney admin being much different than an Obama admin either; what I’m more concerned about is getting the right wingers out of Congress.   That’s where they do the most damage.  

Quote
When a head coach of a big football school doesn’t win he is replaced
This is TRUE, unfortunately many times you end up with somebody much WORSE.  Rich Rodriguez turned the winning-est program in college football into a joke :(  

Quote
Or  a big company is losing money the CEO is fired
LOL, are you kidding me?  What a joke!   CEOs don’t get fired for bad decisions.

." i will vouch for Bluegrass"  Of course you will, birds of a feather will always vouch for each other. right or wrong.
I said there are no guaranties but a change is needed. BTW we can't get any worse
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 19, 2012, 09:03:38 pm
This is a trick as old as the ancient Athenians palming two white of black pebbles when they "CAST" their vote into the clay urns used as a ballot box in Greece 2,500 years ago. 

This trick displayed above, is called depressing voter turnout.  I must confess that I have done it before and if it is in my candidate's best intrest I will do it again.  All's fair in love and war, y'all.

An example: Give it up BlueBee, you know Obama is not going to win, go fishing on election day and forget about voting. 

Do y'all see now it works? :-D  :angel: :-D  :evil:  :police:  I have also heard that Obama has a troop of Internet seminar volunteers trying to depress the Romney turn out.  I don't think that they are doing it here because both of our Blues have been with us too long.  But remember, "All's fair in love and war, y'all."
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 20, 2012, 06:57:58 am
>A Romney Admin will reflect similar policies as we currently have with cronyism

I have a hard time accepting anything you say about Romney after reading some of your other leftist comments about this and other subjects.
Even if the cronyism you speak of were true, cronyism is not our only or most important thing going on in this country. Things like energy independence, foreign policy, SS, medicare and welfare reform and a host of other things need to be delt with and it is obvious the guy running things now has proved he is not capable of dealing with them.
When a head coach of a big football school doesn't win he is replaced or a big company is loosing money the CEO is fired and that is in order here.
There are no guaranties but we have got to try someone else.

You don't have to read anything I say. You can read the transcripts of his governorship just about anywhere if you put in the time to seek them out. (pretty well buried under this election material, but it's still out there)

Don't believe he is liberal? Ever wonder why the NRA hasn't endorsed him? Here is a clue, they didn't endorse him for Gov either and gave his democratic challenger a higher rating on gun issues. He also used to donate money to Planned Parenthood prior to and during his years as Gov. If you watch the debates he stated that he would not push for or sign legislation taking away a woman's right to choose. That is a shift from what he said during the primaries.

He is Promising to create 12 million jobs in his first 4 years of office... If you stopped to do the math you would know that was not a promise he can only keep by putting millions on the Government pay roll. (12 million/48= 250,000 per month) No Pres has ever added 250,000 jobs per month in our history, to say nothing about doing it for 48 months straight. Not even FDR and he did put millions on the Government payroll.

Kingbee: Vote suppression? really? Yeah our secrete plan is to throw this election 1 beekeeper at a time :D

I hope to live to see a day when we successfully shake the 2 party system. Most will not know until they step into the voting booth that there are 4 Presidential Candidates on the ballot, not two.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 20, 2012, 07:06:12 am
Here is one for you: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/55019844-82/romney-obama-state-president.html.csp (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/55019844-82/romney-obama-state-president.html.csp)

The SLT is a Mormon owned newspaper... And they just endorsed Obama. Not really a surprise... George Romney also received much criticism from the LDS church for going against Church Beliefs.. At that time it was their beliefs on segregation. Today it is beliefs on abortion.   
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 20, 2012, 08:41:25 am
The Orlando Sentinel endorsed Obama in 2008. They are disappointed  with the results.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/19/orlando-sentinel-flips-for-romney-tampa-bay-times-backs-obama/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/19/orlando-sentinel-flips-for-romney-tampa-bay-times-backs-obama/)
I would not expect the Salt Lake tribune to endorse Romney because he is a Mormon. It does not fit the leftist ideology. A lot of Jewish people voted Obama in 2008 that will not make that mistake again.
And in looking.I think it was founded  by LDS  and overtaken by the libs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune)
By this  article I doubt the Mormons do little to run the paper.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 20, 2012, 01:01:39 pm
The Nashville news paper The Tennessean has been a strong democratic news paper forever came out this week in favor of Romney. They said because of Obama's poor economic record.

And Grass I have done enough research on both candidates to know you would have to do alot of twisting to find any similarities in these two whether you like one or the other.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Sunnyboy2 on October 20, 2012, 02:33:23 pm
I live about 75 miles from Salt Lake, and so most of our "local" news media is based out of there.  The Salt Lake Trib has a long history of attacking the Mormon church.  It was started as an opposition paper to the to the Deseret News (the paper started by the church in the 1840s and owned to this day). Both papers share printing facilities now, but the paper continues to cherish its role as the opposition to Mormon church point of view in Utah.  Sometimes that is good.  Please note that the Trib has not endorsed a republican mayor for salt lake in the last decade plus.
So this is not big nor unexpected news to us who live near by Salt Lake.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 20, 2012, 08:28:02 pm

And Grass I have done enough research on both candidates to know you would have to do alot of twisting to find any similarities in these two whether you like one or the other.

Well I will not waste my time trying to show you otherwise then... I am sure if Romney did win and my statements were proved right, those who vote for him will make excuses anyway....

From a left wing liberal point of view... they should be very happy with either candidate.



Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 20, 2012, 10:00:06 pm
Yes, this Salt Lake City paper did endorced Obama. 

On the other hand Lee Iacocca, the Ford Motor Company's Mustang guru and Chrysler Motors' savior and Americas most well known and loved car CEO endorced Romney. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlueBee on October 21, 2012, 01:59:11 am
LOL, are you saying Mr Government bailout Iacocca is your most loved car CEO.  Now I’ve heard it all :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I always get a chuckle out of the convoluted logic of our right wing friends.  It’s got to be hard to rationalize how to vote for a liberal like Romney!
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 21, 2012, 06:25:44 am


On the other hand Lee Iacocca, the Ford Motor Company's Mustang guru and Chrysler Motors' savior and Americas most well known and loved car CEO endorced Romney. 


The Obama cow is milked dry, time to line the next one up in the stall :shock:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 21, 2012, 08:48:43 am
Iacocca paid back the government. GM most likely will not.
The government should not have bailed them out either. And I think it was set up as a loan,not a stock takeover.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 21, 2012, 08:56:33 am
Though Romney is not a poster child of conservatism.he does not spend all his time looking to blame someone else. And he has worked in the private sector,
which is a leg up over the current occupant.
Obama preaches that if you have a problem,it's the fault of someone else  and the only way to fix it is through government redistribution. The philosophy that someone owes you something for your own lack of responsibility is growing thin on the American people who are being drained dry over this principle.

It's just sad to think the people have stood for it long enough to let them pay out of the next several generations income for this crazy stuff.If you want to provide a future for your children and grandchildren,quit spending it away now. Shut down the spending machine.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 21, 2012, 09:43:35 am
 :goodpost:
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 21, 2012, 09:51:24 am
I know the Obama camp is now spouting Romnesia. Perhaps if there is a 'nesia" of any kind it is Bidenesia.
It seems clear back in 1988 he had serious problems remembering details of his own past.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/biden-accused-of-plagiarism-in-law-school#.UIPr4mfZ3CY (http://sweetness-light.com/archive/biden-accused-of-plagiarism-in-law-school#.UIPr4mfZ3CY)
And here it is 24 years later. Should we trust his memory of the "facts" very much.

Seems like in the VP debate,almost everything Joe Biden stated as "heres a fact" was code for I'm gonna tell you a lie and you should believe it".
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 21, 2012, 07:43:50 pm
So what would be an acceptable level of spending IYO? I can assure you that spending isn't going to be greatly impacted by a Romney Presidency. In fact I think there is a pretty good chance he will march us into another war somewhere and put it on the credit card. I highly doubt he will repeal obamacare... I think his tactic on that is to get elected once... act like he is trying to do something about it, and then blame Congress for a lack of action in his second term run.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on October 21, 2012, 08:11:20 pm
Not sure on a number,but 25 percent of gdp is way too much. i would much rather see most of the programs returned to the states. And each state could determine what spending is needed and what programs are not needed on an individual basis. If Nebraska needs a bridge,ennsylvanians should not have to pay for it.
If Nevada wants  a cowboy Poet program,why should I pay?
Read Coburns Wastebook 2012. It's just the tip of the iceberg.
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public//index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b7b23f66-2d60-4d5a-8bc5-8522c7e1a40e (http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public//index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b7b23f66-2d60-4d5a-8bc5-8522c7e1a40e)
Perhaps we should be asking how much is too much if they are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar they are spending.Even at revenue neutral,nothing goes to deficit reduction. A balanced budget just means revenues equal spending. Not necessarily is there any deficit reduction.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on October 21, 2012, 09:33:56 pm
Not sure on a number,but 25 percent of gdp is way too much. i would much rather see most of the programs returned to the states. And each state could determine what spending is needed and what programs are not needed on an individual basis. If Nebraska needs a bridge,ennsylvanians should not have to pay for it.
If Nevada wants  a cowboy Poet program,why should I pay?
Read Coburns Wastebook 2012. It's just the tip of the iceberg.
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public//index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b7b23f66-2d60-4d5a-8bc5-8522c7e1a40e (http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public//index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b7b23f66-2d60-4d5a-8bc5-8522c7e1a40e)
Perhaps we should be asking how much is too much if they are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar they are spending.Even at revenue neutral,nothing goes to deficit reduction. A balanced budget just means revenues equal spending. Not necessarily is there any deficit reduction.

So you have no guide to judge success or failure on Romney's part? If in 4 years we are still spending at or more than current rates, unemployment didn't meet his 12 million added jobs as promised... The Affordable Care Act was left to go into effect etc.. You will still back him because just like his lack of a plan to get anything done... you have no plan to judge his performance on?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Sundog on October 21, 2012, 11:59:25 pm
So you have no guide to judge success or failure on Romney's part?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/mitt-romney-olympics_n_1704261.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/mitt-romney-olympics_n_1704261.html)
http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/inside-bains-chinese-sensata-factories-where-workers-put-12-hour-days-99-135-hour (http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/inside-bains-chinese-sensata-factories-where-workers-put-12-hour-days-99-135-hour)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kingbee on October 22, 2012, 02:48:23 pm
Neither The Huffington Post, nor AlterNet is an objective or fair source of information.

If you want to see how government actions impact or will impact you, look at the subject from the point of view of an insider or experience the subject from the first person point of view like in the truncated post that follows.

Here are a few observations about America under the “Current Occupant” as seen through the eyes of a former resident of the (Choose one) the Former Soviet Union, The Union of Soviet Socalist Republics, Russia, Commie Land, or The Peoples’ Marxist Workers’ Paradise.  The author‘s insight comes from living in all of these places from about 1965 until around 1990.

http://thepeoplescube.com/current-truth/contradictions-of-socialism-i-saw-the-future-ran-away-t3076.html (http://thepeoplescube.com/current-truth/contradictions-of-socialism-i-saw-the-future-ran-away-t3076.html)

"The six dialectical contradictions of socialism in the USSR:
There is full employment - yet no one is working.
No one is working - yet the factory quotas are fulfilled.
The factory quotas are fulfilled - yet the stores have nothing to sell.
The stores have nothing to sell - yet people got all the stuff at home.
People got all the stuff at home - yet everyone is complaining.
Everyone is complaining - yet the voting is always unanimous."

"Economic justice:
America is capitalist and greedy - yet half of the population is subsidized.
Half of the population is subsidized - yet they think they are victims.
They think they are victims - yet their representatives run the government.
Their representatives run the government - yet the poor keep getting poorer.
The poor keep getting poorer - yet they have things that people in other countries only dream about.
They have things that people in other countries only dream about - yet they want America to be more like those other countries."

"Hollywood cliches:
Without capitalism there'd be no Hollywood - yet filmmakers hate capitalism.
Filmmakers hate capitalism - yet they sue for unauthorized copying of their movies.
They sue for unauthorized copying - yet on screen they teach us to share.
On screen they teach us to share - yet they keep their millions to themselves.
They keep their millions to themselves - yet they revel in stories of American misery and depravity.
They revel in stories of American misery and depravity - yet they blame the resulting anti-American sentiment on conservatism.
They blame the anti-American sentiment on conservatism - yet conservatism ensures the continuation of a system that makes Hollywood possible."

"People's power:
Liberals believe they're advancing people's power - yet they don't believe people can do anything right without their guidance.
People can't do anything right - yet the government bureaucracy can do everything.
The government bureaucracy can do everything - yet liberals don't like it when the government takes control of their lives.
Liberals don't like it when the government takes control of their lives - yet they vote for programs that increase people's dependency on the government.
They vote for programs that increase people's dependency on the government - yet they believe they're advancing people's power."

"Bush and the media:
The media said Bush was dumb - yet he won over two intelligent Democrats.
He won over two intelligent Democrats - yet the media said his ratings were hopeless.
The media said his ratings were hopeless - yet the 2004 electoral map was red.
The 2004 electoral map was red - yet the media said his policies failed.
The media said his policies failed - yet the economy grew and the war was won.
The economy grew and the war was won - yet the media said we needed "change."

"Public education:
Liberals have been in charge of education for 50 years - yet education is out of control.
Education is out of control - yet liberal teaching methods prevail.
Liberal teaching methods prevail - yet public schools are failing.
Public schools are failing - yet their funding keeps growing.
Their funding keeps growing - yet public schools are always underfunded.
Public schools are always underfunded - yet private schools yield better results for less.
Private schools yield better results for less - yet public education is the only way out of the crisis."

"Foreign radicals:
Foreign radicals hate America - yet they're all wearing American blue jeans.
They're all wearing American blue jeans - yet they disdain American culture.
They disdain American culture - yet they play American music, movies, and video games.
They play American music, movies, and video games - yet they call Americans uncivilized.
They call Americans uncivilized - yet they expect Americans to defend their civilization.
They expect Americans to defend their civilization - yet they think American capitalism is outdated.
They think American capitalism is outdated - yet most of their countries require American handouts."

"Liberals and taxes:
Liberals want to help the poor - yet they won't give money to charities.
They won't give money to charities - yet they'd like the government to become a gigantic charity.
They'd like the government to become a gigantic charity - yet the money has to be taken from people by force.
The money has to be taken from people by force - yet they call it welfare.
They call it welfare - yet higher taxes make everyone poorer.
Higher taxes make everyone poorer - yet liberals find ways not to pay taxes.
Liberals find ways not to pay taxes - yet they get to be chosen to run the government."

"Liberals and the CIA:
The CIA is a reactionary institution - yet its agents always leak information that helps liberals politically.
CIA agents always leak information that helps liberals politically - yet liberals say the CIA is clueless.
Liberals say the CIA is clueless - yet in their movies the CIA is running the world.
In their movies the CIA is running the world - yet they tell us that better intelligence could have prevented the war.
Better intelligence could have prevented the war - yet "enhanced interrogations" of captured terrorists must not be allowed."

"Love and marriage:
Sex differences are the result of social conditioning - yet homosexuality is biological.
Homosexuality is biological - yet everybody is encouraged to experiment with it.
Everybody is encouraged to experiment with it - yet venereal diseases are treated at the taxpayers' expense.
Venereal diseases are treated at the taxpayers' expense - yet taxpayers have no right to impose standards since there are no moral absolutes.
There are no moral absolutes - yet gay marriage is an absolute must.
Gay marriage is an absolute must - yet family is an antiquated tool of bourgeois oppression."
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on October 22, 2012, 04:25:31 pm
HOW TRUE.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on October 22, 2012, 08:52:55 pm
Some plain ole common sense right there. :)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Sunnyboy2 on October 22, 2012, 09:44:49 pm
Fun thoughts.  Thanks kingbee.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on November 07, 2012, 03:54:54 am
Gonna be awful quiet around here for a few days I think...

Nice thing about being Independent is that partisanship doesn't cloud your vision and there aren't any surprises when you can see clearly

I am proud to live in a country were the highest office isn't for sale, regardless of who spends the most money, the people have the last say... I think in 4 more years we will see a lot less money donated and spent, because it didn't buy the interest groups anything this time around.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: Sunnyboy2 on November 07, 2012, 05:06:08 pm
I think in 4 more years we will see a lot less money donated and spent, because it didn't buy the interest groups anything this time around.



It appears to me the dems raised and spent more money, by just little bit; then dems win election, by just a little bit. How do such . . . "coincidences"  . . . match with your conclusion?

I think that what this election secured was a future of high dollar, nasty attack ads early and often.  (I note that the Swiftboat attacks can be credited with elevating nasty attack ads' importance, i don't think this is a partisan issue, just an ongoing reality).
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: sterling on November 07, 2012, 05:34:15 pm
Gonna be awful quiet around here for a few days I think...

Nice thing about being Independent is that partisanship doesn't cloud your vision and there aren't any surprises when you can see clearly

I am proud to live in a country were the highest office isn't for sale, regardless of who spends the most money, the people have the last say... I think in 4 more years we will see a lot less money donated and spent, because it didn't buy the interest groups anything this time around.

This country is in serious trouble
Financially: 16 trillion in debt and rising. We are approaching our debt ceiling soon.
Unemployment is and has been for months on end at 8%. Real unemployment over 14%.
Educational system is putting out students way behind many countries of the world. Some in high school can barley read.
Energy: coal mining being shut down in parts of the country, oil fields being shut down making us more dependent on foreign countries.
Our southern borders are extremely unprotected letting in millions of illegals yearly. Who BTW live off our hard working people once here.
Liberties in our personal health care are about to be taken away.
Our relationship with the countries of the Middle East is in shambles. The Taliban is not on the run. Iran building Nucs to destroy Israel and the US.
The racial divide is worse then I have seen it in my life and I was around before MLK started marching.
This is just a short list but maybe you get my point.

And you are going to pat yourself on the back because you voted for a man who offered absolutely no solutions for these and any other problems one might mention.

GONGRATALATIONS Bluegrass you are my hero.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: iddee on November 07, 2012, 05:44:34 pm
When the very old folks start talking about how nice it was during 1931, 32, and 33, we will remind them of who voted for the conditions that made the memories change.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: buzzbee on November 07, 2012, 06:47:49 pm
Gonna be awful quiet around here for a few days I think...

Nice thing about being Independent is that partisanship doesn't cloud your vision and there aren't any surprises when you can see clearly

I am proud to live in a country were the highest office isn't for sale, regardless of who spends the most money, the people have the last say... I think in 4 more years we will see a lot less money donated and spent, because it didn't buy the interest groups anything this time around.

Obviously the billion dollars spent by the Obama crowd will not buy any influence. Especially the money from overseas!!
Another topic the main stream pundits never questioned. Just like they forget to mention the Clinton administration with the Ryadi money.
This election was won by the MSM and the people  that only pay attention for one month every election cycle. The popular vote definitely did not give a mandate.

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: luvin honey on November 12, 2012, 01:59:53 pm
Gonna be awful quiet around here for a few days I think...

Nice thing about being Independent is that partisanship doesn't cloud your vision and there aren't any surprises when you can see clearly

I am proud to live in a country were the highest office isn't for sale, regardless of who spends the most money, the people have the last say... I think in 4 more years we will see a lot less money donated and spent, because it didn't buy the interest groups anything this time around.
I certainly hope so.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: kathyp on November 12, 2012, 02:22:12 pm
Quote
because it didn't buy the interest groups anything this time around.

of course it helped.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance (http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance)

Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on November 15, 2012, 10:30:45 am
Kathy
Scroll down below the graph and look at "Outside Money" It was the "outside money" I was referring to in my post above. Please note the disclaimer that states "since April 1st may reflect more recent money than contained in totals".

This is where Romney pulls ahead of Obama... Outside of the Campaign, RNC, and Primary super pac money, and in the Private Super Pacs..
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: luvin honey on November 15, 2012, 12:12:54 pm
I heard that 85% of super PAC money went to Romney. What a waste of money in this economy. I wonder how it will all pan out next time when the PACs see how wasted their money was.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on November 15, 2012, 12:20:54 pm
The money left over is all profit for the PAC operators and there is a loophole that makes that profit tax free.... They make millions off of it which is why Rove runs a Super Pac. It is also why I only give directly to the Campaigns if I make a donation at all.

Politics is really easy to understand, all you have to do is follow the money trail. 
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: luvin honey on November 15, 2012, 12:46:31 pm
The money left over is all profit for the PAC operators and there is a loophole that makes that profit tax free.... They make millions off of it which is why Rove runs a Super Pac. It is also why I only give directly to the Campaigns if I make a donation at all.

Politics is really easy to understand, all you have to do is follow the money trail. 
Holy cow--seriously?!? I should start a campaign.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: bluegrass on November 15, 2012, 12:57:04 pm
Yes.. After the election is over they are called "Zombie Super Pacs" You can google it and read about how the money gets used afterwards and the complete lack of regulation.

It isn't about getting anybody elected in my opinion. It is about getting people fired up and milking them for cash.

I am estimating based on media reports that Karl Rove's Super Pac American Crossroads has about 150 million left over... all tax free to use as he chooses. Ole Rove doesn't do anything that doesn't make him a hunk of cash... He is good to go for another 4 years when he will rake it in again... As long as there is somebody foolish enough to donate the money.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on November 15, 2012, 02:03:08 pm
Yep-quite the racket, 'super' PACs.  And to think there are millions who want Rove and his ilk back in controll  :roll:   Me thinks they have too much power already.

No one has done more to expose Super Pacs real purpose than comedian Stephen Colbert and his Lawyer (a former Bush adviser whose name escapes me).
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlevinsBees on November 15, 2012, 03:12:49 pm
That would be Trevor Potter. I enjoy Colbert's "Ham Rove" bit that is quite accurate in my opinion.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: luvin honey on November 15, 2012, 03:52:48 pm
I LOVE the clip of Stewart and Colbert collaborating with their lawyer on the line, regarding their super PAC. Hilarious and horrifyingly enlightening as to the ins and outs of super PACs (regardless of who they target).
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on November 15, 2012, 05:07:57 pm
Trevor Potter, that's it.

Nothing  has quite the accuracy of truth based comedy.  George Carlin knew that.  Man is he  ever missed.

Jon Stewert (voted "Most trusted man in America" for several years) and Stephan Colbert, who the Right still hasn't quite figured out yet.  Bless them both.

My only complaint is that they're not on every day.  Talk about a "news" Jones  ;)
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: luvin honey on November 15, 2012, 05:10:30 pm
Have you seen Jon Stewart's Bulls#@t mountain spiel yet?
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on November 15, 2012, 05:18:22 pm
Oh yeah, I rarely miss him and when I do I've got DVR.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: BlevinsBees on November 15, 2012, 10:28:29 pm
Those guys are hilarious regardless of your political views. They both have said that they don't know what they're going to do now for material since Romney is out of the picture. They will always have Rove though not to mention our all star 4 star Generals.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: T Beek on November 16, 2012, 12:15:25 pm
Exactly!

That's why I love them.  They pick on everyone equally, but particularly those most deserving. 

There are no sides or lines drawn. 

They expose "stupid" wherever it appears and unfortunately, they have lots of ammo these days :-D.
Title: Re: VP Pick
Post by: luvin honey on November 16, 2012, 02:03:46 pm
True on the both sides comment. He roasted the President when he came on the show after his first debate.