Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER - TALKS & REPORTS => Topic started by: LivelyHive on July 15, 2012, 08:03:40 pm

Title: places without CCD
Post by: LivelyHive on July 15, 2012, 08:03:40 pm
From reading the other posts in this forum, it seems that USA and Europe have been hardest hit by CCD. Australia seems to be free from both CCD, and varroa.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/20/96181/are-australian-honeybees-behind.html (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/20/96181/are-australian-honeybees-behind.html)  - explains that Australia is generally free of CCD
http://www.unep.org/dewa/Portals/67/pdf/Global_Bee_Colony_Disorder_and_Threats_insect_pollinators.pdf (http://www.unep.org/dewa/Portals/67/pdf/Global_Bee_Colony_Disorder_and_Threats_insect_pollinators.pdf) - says that Australia is generally free of varroa, also addresses varroa losses worldwide
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/06/14/stung-by-bees.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/06/14/stung-by-bees.html) - suggests that CCD has also reached China, although unclear whether losses are from other sources
I haven't read much about South America, Africa, Asia or the Middle East. Does anyone know if these regions have also been affected by CCD?

Thanks always!
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: bernsad on July 15, 2012, 09:50:31 pm
True LivelyHive, we don't seem to have CCD here in Aus., nobody loses colonies at such a scale over here. And we don't have Varroa yet. It's probably only a matter of time before mites arrive here, if they aren't already and we just haven't found them yet. Varroa is right on our doorstep. New Zealand is badly affected by it and they are just 4 hours by plane from here, but even closer, Asian Honey Bees, who are natural carriers of mites, are right through Papua New Guinea and on a number of islands throughout the Torres Strait, which are almost a stones throw from the mainland. We have had a number of Asian Honey Bee invasions over the past few years that have been eradicated but I think the federal government has suspended the program for monitoring and the job is being left up to the local beeks along the north coast. Very disappointing! It's not a matter of if they get here but when.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on February 27, 2013, 06:07:17 pm
From reading the other posts in this forum, it seems that USA and Europe have been hardest hit by CCD.

USA is only place where CCD exists. It is not in Canada,  neither in Europe.

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on February 27, 2013, 08:17:15 pm
CCD is not caused by varroa but by neonicotinoids.

There is a lot of CCD in Europe as well, but the officials are better at covering it up than those in the US.  :roll:

Certain agricultural areas of NZ have had cases of CCD, too.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on February 28, 2013, 09:31:03 am
CCD is not caused by varroa but by neonicotinoids.

There is a lot of CCD in Europe as well, but the officials are better at covering it up than those in the US.  :roll:

Certain agricultural areas of NZ have had cases of CCD, too.

you are wrong

and Ccd is not caused by neo*.*

.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 02, 2013, 06:12:44 pm
CCD is not caused by varroa but by neonicotinoids.

There is a lot of CCD in Europe as well, but the officials are better at covering it up than those in the US.  :roll:

Certain agricultural areas of NZ have had cases of CCD, too.

you are wrong

and Ccd is not caused by neo*.*

.

Finman, I am not wrong, I have read all the up to date literature on the topic and seen CCD repeatedly with my own eyes.
The connection to neonics is obvious.

I have seen you posting on every forum possible, usually your posts are in the thousands. Strange!

I wonder how you can just declare that I am wrong. I believe neonics are hardly used in Finland ...

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 03, 2013, 02:04:56 am



Finman, I am not wrong, I have read all the up to date literature on the topic and seen CCD repeatedly with my own eyes.
The connection to neonics is obvious.

I have seen you posting on every forum possible, usually your posts are in the thousands. Strange!



I write on 2 beekeeping forum.   Not more.
Europe has its own bee disease researching, and no CCD has been found. Many other reseason are why so much hives.

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 03, 2013, 04:53:01 am
.
There are many kind of vanishing bees and winter losses. Even USA does not know what are reasons that healthy hives die during active season.
It is still more or less mystery. Many scientics say that it derives from starvation of bees when they are collected to southern fields to wait almond and citrus pollination.

Interesting was a reseach. 3 beekeepers (each 20 hives) start to migrate hives from pollinating task to another, and during that 10 months duty 57% of hives died. At once, when migration started, the amount of brood frames started to go down. It went to 1/3. The researchers say that they do not exactly know what happened in hives.

Here is a report from Europe

Some researchers are eager to find CCD in every country because they want money to their projects.

This is one of newest report.

A number of pests and diseases have been demonstrated as being implicated with colony losses. The
major pests/diseases are Varroa destructor, American foulbrood, European foulbrood, Nosema spp., honey
bee viruses, and Acarine mite (Acarapis woodi). Varroa has irreversibly changed the Deformed Wing Virus
(DWV) viral landscape across the world. DWV is now considered one of the key players in colony losses
in Europe.
Future threats and non-native invasive species are also of high interest, like the Small Hive
Beetle (Aethina tumida), Tropilaelaps spp. (another parasitic mite) and the Asian Hornet (Vespa velutina).
Overall, pesticide-related bee monitoring activities can be a helpful tool to assess potential side effects to
bees on a large-scale level and under realistic field conditions, which can be relevant where the regular
risk assessment still contains uncertainties.

PDF]
     Bee health in Europe - Facts & figures 2013 - OPERA Research ...

operaresearch.eu/.../20130122162456_BEEHEAL...

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 05:15:26 am
...
     Bee health in Europe - Facts & figures 2013 - OPERA Research ...

operaresearch.eu/.../20130122162456_BEEHEAL...


The 'research' you are quoting is mostly funded by Bayer, which happens to be the main manufacturer of neonicotinoid pesticides, which independent researchers have identified as the cause of CCD.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 06:00:57 am

I write on 2 beekeeping forum.   Not more.


So you are here (Beemaster)

+ NZ Beek Forum
http://www.nzbees.net/forum/members/finman.159/ (http://www.nzbees.net/forum/members/finman.159/)

+ 'Beekeeping Forum'
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/member.php?u=157 (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/member.php?u=157)

- that's at least 3 active memberships.

I see you got banned here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?200933-To-follow-levels-of-varroa-without-calculation&p=146119&highlight=bees#post146119 (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?200933-To-follow-levels-of-varroa-without-calculation&p=146119&highlight=bees#post146119)

... and I am sure I have seen you elsewhere, too.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 03, 2013, 06:04:24 am
.
Good heavens!

carry on. You will find more.

.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 10:14:41 am
A lot of the studies in the US showed the largest chemical contaminants in the wax was fluvalinate and camophous. Beekeeper chemicals for varroa control.
 Pyrethroids in this study seem to be just as likely a cause.
Originally it was blamed on cell towers and radio waves.We need to stay tuned.
http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle16.html (http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle16.html)
Stress on the colonies is also a contributing factor. Migratory keepers lose as a percentage ,more bees than the hobbiest to the symptoms of ccd.These colonies never get a rest period,being trucked from one end of the nation to the other, constant feeding to keep brood rearing going and most likely a steady diet of fumagillin and anti varroa treatments.They  have to do what is necessary to keep these bees alive as dead bees do not make money.
  Most hobbiests bees die in the hive. Not a ccd symptom. Most likely beekeeper error.
And if you do a little looking there have been reports of fall dwindling for a long time.Not a completely new problem,but when it hits guys with a couple thousand hives it gets a lot more attention than when a backyard keeper loses 50 percent of his hives(which may be just one of two).
If you do away with the neonics, I doubt all instances will  disappear. In Finland they kill varroa with oxalic acid rather than fluvalinate and camophous.This does not leave residual in the comb.
If the neonics cause this, how do we explain the hives that thrive despite the exposure? I'm guessing they had at least one less stress factor.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 10:21:13 am
Livelyhives link from above:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/20/96181/are-australian-honeybees-behind.html (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/20/96181/are-australian-honeybees-behind.html)
shows that bees imported from a country where they have not been exposed to varroa and exposed to asian bee viruses may have impacted the migratory keepers in the almonds and spread the symptoms via contaminated colonies on flat bed trucks.
Do not ring the alarm bell, it is just another possibility among hundreds.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 12:30:28 pm

A lot of the studies in the US showed the largest chemical contaminants in the wax was fluvalinate and camophous. Beekeeper chemicals for varroa control.
 Pyrethroids in this study seem to be just as likely a cause.


It is understandable, that fluvalinate and coumaphos are found at high levels in hives, as that's where they are applied.

However, the toxicity of neonics is thousands of times higher than of those other chemicals, and they can affect colonies at doses that can hardly be detected in hives.

I used pyrethroids on my bees against varroa, and there was no observable problem at all, they were thriving.


Quote

Originally it was blamed on cell towers and radio waves.We need to stay tuned.
http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle16.html (http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle16.html)


The link doesn't work.
The story about the cell towers was a red herring and meant to confuse the issue.
I am not a fan of these towers, but they are clearly not linked to the mass colony deaths at the moment.


Quote

Stress on the colonies is also a contributing factor. Migratory keepers lose as a percentage ,more bees than the hobbiest to the symptoms of ccd.These colonies never get a rest period,being trucked from one end of the nation to the other, constant feeding to keep brood rearing going and most likely a steady diet of fumagillin and anti varroa treatments.They  have to do what is necessary to keep these bees alive as dead bees do not make money.


Stress is not good for bees, but migratory beekeeping has not changed drastically during the time when CCD appeared.
What changed was that Clothianidin, one of the new neocis, was introduced to the states.
Clothianidin is several times more toxic to bees than Imidacloprid.


Quote

Most hobbiests bees die in the hive. Not a ccd symptom. Most likely beekeeper error.


I read more and more reports of hobby beekeepers where their colonies have suddenly dwindled away in winter, especially from the US but also from Europe. This is typical for CCD.


Quote

And if you do a little looking there have been reports of fall dwindling for a long time.Not a completely new problem,but when it hits guys with a couple thousand hives it gets a lot more attention than when a backyard keeper loses 50 percent of his hives(which may be just one of two).


Fall dwindling could be down to varroa or problems with the queen, but in both cases the reason for the dwindling can easily be identified.
With CCD, the majority of the bees leaves within a short period during late autumn/winter.
It was made quite clear by those who examined CCD hives, that they had never seen anything like it before.


Quote

If you do away with the neonics, I doubt all instances will  disappear. In Finland they kill varroa with oxalic acid rather than fluvalinate and camophous.This does not leave residual in the comb.


In France neonics were banned from flowering crops and the major bee deaths stopped.


Quote

If the neonics cause this, how do we explain the hives that thrive despite the exposure? I'm guessing they had at least one less stress factor.


I take these stories of hives thriving next to neonic fields with a lot of caution.

Maybe, if it's just Imidacloprid used on OSR then the colonies can get over the exposure during the summer months, only showing some queen failures and increased susceptibility to varroa and nosema.

But colonies exposed to Clothianidin from maize/corn at midsummer will often succumb to CCD in late autumn/winter.

I have seen a whole apiary of ten hives dead, they had access to clothianidin treated corn for the first time in the summer before.
Nothing else had changed, no heavy varroa, no migration. Everything looked perfect, strong colonies with young queens.
By midwinter the hives were empty of bees, with tiny clusters including the queen left behind, and plenty of stores untouched.

 :(

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 12:35:52 pm
Livelyhives link from above:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/20/96181/are-australian-honeybees-behind.html (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/20/96181/are-australian-honeybees-behind.html)
shows that bees imported from a country where they have not been exposed to varroa and exposed to asian bee viruses may have impacted the migratory keepers in the almonds and spread the symptoms via contaminated colonies on flat bed trucks.
Do not ring the alarm bell, it is just another possibility among hundreds.

Whilst we should be careful not to introduce any more diseases, I think that this one is hyped up in order to confuse the CCD story even more.

When examined closely, no link between these viruses and CCD could be detected.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 01:49:42 pm
My link does work:
From the article:
"Pyrethroids bioaccumulate in wax and bees due to their high fat solubility in contrast to neonicotinoids.  In wax, 312 of 340 samples contained pyrethroids versus two with imidacloprid and four with thiacloprid, with the average pyrethroid residue content > 64,000 times higher than the total neonicotinoid. While fluvalinate prevailed (307 detections), many other detections of esfenvalerate (50), fenpropathrin (43), bifenthrin (37), cypermethrin (28), cyfluthrin (26), pyrethrins (16), cyhalothrin (13), deltamethrin (8) and permethrin (8) were found. A similar analysis for residues in 241 bee, brood and queen samples showed only four samples with neonicotinoids, two from bee kill incidences correlated with imidacloprid and thiamethoxam/clothianidin, respectively. The two other samples contained low amounts acetamiprid and thiamethoxam. Even with the higher neonicotinoid residues due to bee kills, a dozen pyrethroids distributed within 70% of our bee samples had a mean residue (non-detects = 0 ppb) of 357 ppb, 178 times greater than the 2 ppb for the neonicotinoids. Pyrethroid prevalence and persistence in the hive thus likely has more consequences for colony survival than the water-soluble neonicotinoids. The only other major insecticide detected in our hive samples with high toxicity was the organophosphate chlorpyrifos (LD50 = 122 ng/bee) in 42.6% of samples with an average detection of 36.3 ppb. This OP degrades more rapidly and is less persistent than pyrethroids. However, higher residues of the less toxic neonicotinoids acetamiprid and thiacloprid (Iwasa et al., 2004) or of pyrethroids (Pilling and Jepson, 1993; Johnson et al., 2011) in pollens with even higher amounts of fungicides may have considerable impact on bee health via their synergistic combinations. Pyrethroids disable foraging of bees at levels of 9 ng permethrin per bee (90 ppb) Cox et al. 1984) and 2.5 ng deltamethrin per bee (vanDame et al. 1995), which is of a potency similar to that of imidacloprid."
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 01:51:27 pm
Not sure where the smileys came from,possiblty the punctuation in the article interpreted by forum software as smiley.
And I am sure this article is not to confuse the ccd argument.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 02:38:11 pm
As far as the link to Australia:



Maryann_Frazier.WMV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F34TLvdg-OY#)
with Maryann Frazier of Penn State at 24 minutes

Israel Acute Paralisys Virus
Nosema Ceranae
Are found in a larger number of CCD hives (83 percent)

IAPV was found in all the Australian packages.

Kelleybees take on CCD:
https://kelleybees.com/blog/2012/10/our-stand-on-re-usingre-running-stories-ccd/ (https://kelleybees.com/blog/2012/10/our-stand-on-re-usingre-running-stories-ccd/)

Australia did not suffer from CCD so much,but most CCD cases in the US had this virus. A definite correlation.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 03:46:37 pm
http://www.extension.org/pages/65034/neonicotinoid-seed-treatments-and-honey-bee-health (http://www.extension.org/pages/65034/neonicotinoid-seed-treatments-and-honey-bee-health)
Updated January 2013
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 04:05:05 pm
...
Even with the higher neonicotinoid residues due to bee kills, a dozen pyrethroids distributed within 70% of our bee samples had a mean residue (non-detects = 0 ppb) of 357 ppb, 178 times greater than the 2 ppb for the neonicotinoids. Pyrethroid prevalence and persistence in the hive thus likely has more consequences for colony survival than the water-soluble neonicotinoids.
...

The second sentence there cannot be deducted from the first sentence.

Just because there is more of the pyrethroids, doesn't mean that they are a bigger problem for the bees than the neonics.

Wikipedia might not be the most wonderful source of infromation, but we can use it for a rough guideline on toxicity:

Coumaphos[19]    Checkmite    Organophosphate       This is an insecticide that is used inside the beehive to combat varroa mites and small hive beetles, which are parasites of the honey bee. Overdoses can lead to bee poisoning.    Relatively nontoxic (acute LD50 > 100μg/bee) to adult bees.

Imidacloprid    Confidor, Gaucho, Kohinor, Admire, Advantage, Merit, Confidor, Hachikusan, Amigo, SeedPlus (Chemtura Corp.), Monceren GT, Premise, Prothor, and Winner    Neonicotinoid       (see also Imidacloprid effects on bee population)Banned in France since 1999    highly toxic (acute LD50 < 2μg/bee)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide_toxicity_to_bees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide_toxicity_to_bees)

Anyway, beekeepers have been using coumaphos and fluvalinate for a long time in their hives and not observed CCD, while the introduction of Clothianidin to the US was followed by the first reports of CCD.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 04:40:15 pm
The composition of fluvalinate changed in the 90's.The inert ingredients make it much more toxic to bees. Fluvalinate and camaphous remain embedded in the wax and bee breads while neonics tend to breakdown in the hive and pass out of the bee gut in a short amount of time.
again, neonics are not free of harm,but ruling it as the only cause is irresponsible as there is evidence of a convergence of pathogemns and chemicals coming into play.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/taufluvalinate_red.pdf (http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/taufluvalinate_red.pdf)


From Page 27 of the document on fluvalinate
" Available information suggests that terrestrial insects will likely be adversely affected by
tau-fluvalinate use. The Agency currently does not estimate risk quotients for terrestrial non­
target insects. However, an appropriate label statement is required to protect foraging honeybees
when the LD
50
is less than 11
g/bee. For tau-fluvalinate, the acute contact toxicity study to
honeybees indicates that the LD
50
is 0.2
g/bee. This classifies tau-fluvalinate as highly toxic to
honeybees. The impregnated strip formulation is used in beehives to treat
Varroa
mites when
bees are not present. "
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 05:43:14 pm
...
Australia did not suffer from CCD so much,but most CCD cases in the US had this virus. A definite correlation.


I am sorry, but this is not what I call a correlation.

If IAPV virus was responsible for CCD, then we should see a lot of it in Australia.
Many hives that died of CCD tested negative for IAPV.

Most of all: where are the shivering, paralyzed bees - the main symptom of IAPV?

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: bluegrass on March 03, 2013, 05:57:13 pm
The more I read about CCD the more I begin to think that John Miller is right. CCD is caused by PPB (piss poor beekeeping). His 10,000 hives survived the mass failures of 05,06 and 08 when neighboring hives all collapsed. He says CCD is nothing more than years of neglect catching up with the beekeepers.   
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 06:11:03 pm
Here I have  photo of a building in Mississippi. It is not far from corn,beans and cotton. Probably the most chemically treated plants by all reckoning.
Within the studs of these walls live several colonies of honeybees. This building has been occupied by bees for quite some time and continues to be.There are a lot of wild colonies in this area. Perhaps when nature takes it's course via hive beetles and wax moths destroying old comb it allows these bees to survive. Perhaps it's magic.

So for some reason the neonics have not killed these bees:
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/kwrabbit/Bud%202010/IMG_0290.jpg)
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 06:20:44 pm
Bluegrass,
You may be on to something. As bee operations get larger and larger due to scale of econmy in size,they have to rely more and more on hired help. As most of this help sees this as a job and not their livelihood I can see where they do not pay attention to detail when working the hives as the owner/operator of the operation would. Especially if the bees are trucked off site and are at the hands of a brokers hired help.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: bluegrass on March 03, 2013, 06:33:16 pm
Oh how I love feral bees... :-D I have heard for years that all the ferals were dead.... Then I moved to KY in 2005 and found ferals everywhere... Wish I still had access to all those bees that people would pay me to get rid of.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 06:42:41 pm
Here I have  photo of a building in Mississippi. It is not far from corn,beans and cotton. Probably the most chemically treated plants by all reckoning.
Within the studs of these walls live several colonies of honeybees. This building has been occupied by bees for quite some time and continues to be.There are a lot of wild colonies in this area. Perhaps when nature takes it's course via hive beetles and wax moths destroying old comb it allows these bees to survive. Perhaps it's magic.

So for some reason the neonics have not killed these bees:
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/kwrabbit/Bud%202010/IMG_0290.jpg)

Unfortunately there is no way this statement can be verified.

How do we know these bees are really next to treated crops? - They are not visible in the picture.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2013, 06:59:32 pm
I took this photo myself while attending a function with several other members of this forum on a get together with people from all across our country.If I would have known it was going to be an issue,Iwill take more pictures if I make it back to MS.
How can I verify what you have stated?
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: hardwood on March 03, 2013, 07:11:35 pm
I've seen the same cabin every year for the last 3. You basically have to drive through fields to get to it.

Scott
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 03, 2013, 07:35:58 pm

How can I verify what you have stated?


Here a report from my home county where I witnessed the CCD:

http://sistrans.gruene.at/umwelt_energie_klima/artikel/lesen/73318/ (http://sistrans.gruene.at/umwelt_energie_klima/artikel/lesen/73318/)

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: bluegrass on March 03, 2013, 08:59:57 pm
Strommes

You would be amazed by the vastness of crops grown in the USA. Especially Corn and Soy. Even 20 minutes out side the Beltway in Washington DC there are corn fields. Production here is so massive that our government will pay farmers not to plant certain crops when an over abundance would drive prices down. 
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 04, 2013, 12:38:33 pm
-
Here is a new report from Europe made by DEFRA UK Honeybee Disease in Europe - The Food and Environment ...

www.fera.defra.gov.uk/.../syngentaBeeDiseaseRepo (http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/.../syngentaBeeDiseaseRepo)... -

63 pages

Bee losses are explained country by country. Figures are far from 35% losses of USA.
In European countries 15-20% is quite usual.

Italy and Neatherlands have highest averages 30%.

Honeybee Disease in Europe
Report to Syngenta Ltd
January 2013


This report aims to provide an overview on the diseases of honeybees and their distribution in Europe. There have been a number of reviews of honeybee pathology, therefore this review aims to highlight the key areas impacting on bee health in Europe. It will also not deal specifically with CCD as this is not widespread currently and is well reviewed.
The major pests/diseases are Varroa and viruses, acarine (Acarapis woodi), American foulbrood, European foulbrood, Nosema, together with unspecified multiple infections.
The 2009 Bee Mortality and Surveillance in Europe report to EFSA identified the paucity of bee disease data for Europe and recommended the establishment of the current EU Reference Laboratory for Honeybee Health which is co-ordinating its first pilot survey from September 2012. Until these data become available there is no comprehensive dataset available to understand the distribution of bee diseases in Europe.
The major bacterial diseases of honeybees affecting developing brood are the foulbroods, European foulbrood (EFB) caused by Melissococcus plutonius and American foulbrood (AFB) caused by Paenibacillus larvae. Both cause the death of infected brood but AFB is far more virulent and will ultimately result in colony death if uncontrolled. EFB is a far more sporadic disease from which generally only weak colony succumbs.
Acarine is caused by the tracheal mite Acarapis woodi which infests the trachea of adult honeybees. The mite has been identified or is present on all major continents with the exception of Australia. It feeds on the bee hemolymph and has also been identified as a vector of viruses. Infestation of the adult bees with significant numbers of tracheal mites results in high level of bee mortality and poor overwinter survival.
There are two forms of the microsporidian (fungus) Nosema associated with clinical signs of disease in honeybees: Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae. Nosema spp. invade the digestive cells lining the mid-gut of the bee, there they multiply rapidly and within a few days (3-7 days) the cells are packed with spores, the resting stage of the parasite. When the host cell ruptures, it sheds the spores into the gut where they accumulate in masses, to be later excreted by the bees. If spores from the excreta are picked up and swallowed by another bee, they can germinate and once more become active, starting another round of infection and multiplication.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 05, 2013, 04:04:50 pm
The growing consensus among many Beeks and Science is that "the causes of colony mortality are multiple and interrelated."

The latest science I've read indicates that corn (bees don't really like corn and corn doesn't need bees for pollination), even corn w/ heavy concentrations of neonic pesticides aren't the issue as much as the 'residual' talc remaining in the soil for many years, including the surrounding farm perimeters where weeds grow that ARE attractive to bees.

However; I must agree that "bad beekeeping" is a likely culprit in many instances and deserves a place close to the top, but how will any of us ever know?  

And I feel that most issues involve inexperience and QUEEN problems, again few beeks realize it at the time or simply won't/don't admit it when they do.  

THEN; Some People can make some serious money with bees but if treated like cattle, a domesticated animal, well then is it any wonder that colonies are dying?  

Honeybees are the ultimate "socialist" insect and it could be that they are simply rebelling against capitalism.  It sure hasn't helped them now has it?  maybe we should re-coin CCD to 'Capitalism collaspe Disorder'

Some recent research has come out that the mere presence of IBDS (idiopathic brood disease syndrome) makes a colony 3.2 times as likely to die as colonies without IBDS.  Including those colonies held in the same yards, thus one would suppose they were also exposed to the same environment and forage, no?

Beeks have been stuffing our bees with chemicals either intentionally or as a byproduct from our environment for over 70 years.  Their contanimated wax tells us the story yet beeks keep putting more crap in our hives, trying every new and bizarre technique to come on the market to 'save' them all to little avail to the bees.  

When really what we probably should be doing is to LEAVE THEM ALONE for a while (yeah that's gonna happen). Start with banning cross country beekeeping, keeping things strictly regional for a bit, then JUST STOP putting things(chemicals, sugar, anything and everything really) in a hive that the bees didn't bring in.

READY, SET, GO!  :-D

What is IBDS?  As the name implies, "NO ONE REALLY KNOWS" and I'm not ready to simply blanket the solution with a simple (well, not so simple) ban on neonics (even if I might agree, and I do) but my interest is in TODAY's beekeeping and what we all can do to protect our bees and ourselves RIGHT NOW, not after these products are banned.  And what about the residue?

Ideas?
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 05, 2013, 10:36:06 pm
No, there is no growing consensus that the reasons for CCD are multifactorial, this is just what the pesticide corporations want us to believe.

The fact that I saw colonies collapse after neonic exposure amongst otherwise perfect conditions has proven to me, that neonics are to blame.

Ban these pesticides immediately and improve living conditions for our bees everywhere, that's the way forward.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: buzzbee on March 05, 2013, 10:44:27 pm
Get me a garden full of Sevin and I can show you a bee  die off.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: sawdstmakr on March 06, 2013, 12:03:10 am
Get me a garden full of Sevin and I can show you a bee  die off.
I have a hive that I removed from a truck tool box that had a broken bag of sevin in it. The bees and the sevin had been in this box for years. The bottom of the box was full of dead bees and the hive still had 10 full frames worth of brood and well over 40 pounds of honey that we had to seal up and throw away.
I doubt if any bees would survive if there were systemics in that box.
Jim
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 06, 2013, 02:31:24 am


Ban these pesticides immediately and....


How do you know so much about CCD? Are you working in beekeeping university or?
I have believed that UK has no beekeeping reseaching.
.

.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 06, 2013, 05:45:56 am

How do you know so much about CCD? Are you working in beekeeping university or?
I have believed that UK has no beekeeping reseaching.


I have spent a considerable amount of time researching the topic after witnessing apiaries succumb to CCD in the UK, Austria and Germany.

Actually, several institutes in the UK have got major bee research projects running, I have been in touch with some of the scientists involved.

Maybe you should not write about this topic if you are not familiar with the latest research results.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 06, 2013, 06:20:58 am
 :deadhorse: 

Wouldn't it be nice if people could respond to questions and opinions presented instead of letting their mouths engage before their brain is in gear.  Of course that would mean actually 'reading' and absorbing others opinions instead of 'assuming' to know everything.

The universe gave humans 2 ears and one mouth for a very good reason IMHO. 
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: bluegrass on March 06, 2013, 09:10:13 am
You cannot spend much time on any bee forum around the world without running into Finski. He often rubs people the wrong way, but in my 7 year experience reading his posts he isn't one to post something and not know what he is talking about.

I am pretty sure UK denies the existence of CCD in their country still as do many European countries.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 06, 2013, 10:09:39 am

I am pretty sure UK denies the existence of CCD in their country still as do many European countries.


That's right, they call it 'dwindling away' here when a colony dies of CCD.

A recent publication confirmed the link of agricultural activities (mainly neonic treated oilseed rape) and colony losses in Scotland:

Quote
...
A further study led by Dr Connolly analyzed colony failures over winter across the country. Of 89 colonies that had fed on oilseed rape, 27 failed, a death rate of 30 per cent. By contrast, 13 out of 82 colonies which had not fed on oilseed rape died – a smaller failure rate of 16 per cent.
...

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/environment/honey-bee-survival-rate-better-in-west-of-scotland-1-2807966 (http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/environment/honey-bee-survival-rate-better-in-west-of-scotland-1-2807966)
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 06, 2013, 01:12:45 pm
.
I got a researcher education n biology in Helsinki university. Then I was in duty of environmeltal protection in city cuncil 14year. After that  i worked in pulc works  and my big studies in that area were "city construction logistics" and "re engineering of city maintenance logistics".

I have not done any  CCD studies and I will not report about things what I have NOT done.

I have very good skill to evaluate, what information I can trust on. That I have done in my work almost 40 years.

USA has quite many  universities which have recources and  guys whose duty is to research CCD and they are payed for that.  I have ability to read from original reports what they have found out.       

  I have found many funny things about CCD news.  for example in Eastern Europe they do not even calculate how many hives they have. How can they tell how many have died. Same in China.
 
In Scotland  one old beekeeper lost his 8 hives. He told to newspaper man that CCD is here and it will kill hives in UK. In next newspaper it was the same text but headline was "Humankind will die if bees die".  And the same story went around the world 4 years.

In UK they all shouted that hives are dying. Then statistic told that   hives were 60% more than 2 years ago.
.
   
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 06, 2013, 03:33:29 pm

In Scotland  one old beekeeper lost his 8 hives. He told to newspaper man that CCD is here and it will kill hives in UK. In next newspaper it was the same text but headline was "Humankind will die if bees die".  And the same story went around the world 4 years.


So you have never seen CCD for yourself then.

I haven't heard that story of the old Scotsman that went around the world, could you please provide a link to it?
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 06, 2013, 03:38:57 pm
.
You surely find it from google.
Jus now I have only a phone.

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 06, 2013, 04:23:41 pm
.
You surely find it from google.
Jus now I have only a phone.


I'm really keen to see that story, but I can't find it.
I'll wait till you are back on the computer. 
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 07, 2013, 02:03:12 am
.
I searched with key words interner and it is full of mad writings since year 2007.
If bee dies, man dies.
If bees dies, planet dies.

I am not going to  calculate how much comes from Scotland because they are plenty.

Mad writings. Most are made like alien stories.

.  necotioids are strange.  they affect in spring and bees vanish in autumn, aften several brood generation.

The queen eates every day a huge amount of food. Why it is last to die?

.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 07, 2013, 05:48:23 am
As I live in Scotland I am sure I would have heard about that old man, if the story you told was true.
Soon as you can't provide a link to it I have to assume that you made it up.

 - Why do you try to confuse the issue?



My thoughts on CCD:

As to the strange phenomenon of the colonies suddenly dwindling away to nothing months after exposure to neonics:

I have followed these cases closely and I concluded that CCD usually follows the consumption of contaminated pollen late in the season, July and August in most places.

If the exposure to neonics happens earlier, queen failures are often observed, as well as increased susceptibility to varroa, nosema, etc. and even robbing by wasps, as the bees seem too dazed to defend the hive properly.

But the late season exposure through pollen affects the young bees that are supposed to be reared as winter bees. They need to consume larger amounts of pollen than usual, in order to build up their fat bodies.

Could it be that these bees are too dazed to recognize the shortening daylength, which is supposed to trigger them to gorge themselves on pollen?

In that case you would end up with a colony full of short lived summer bees instead of winter bees, which would all leave the hive at around the same time during winter, when their fat reserves are used up - creating the classic look of CCD.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: bluegrass on March 07, 2013, 06:59:15 am
#1. Australia uses neonicotinoids and they have yet to report any CCD.

#2. The multiple University and Government labs here in the USA that have sampled and tested bees from collapsed hives have all come to the same conclusions: The bees expressed the same symptoms, but tests reveal that the samples each carry different diseases, pests and viruses. So other than the symptoms there is no common denominator.

My theory is the bees have always been collapsing and we just never had an adequate reporting system in place to establish the trend. What do the effected countries have that the non-effected Countries do not? Commercial beekeepers who have 20 k-80 k hives. When a guy looses 60% of 12 hives that is not news and doesn't get reported. When a guys looses 10,000 hives and is on the news crying about how much money he just lost and how doomed the worlds food supply is.... That is news.

My other theory is that aliens from a far away planet killed all their bees with pesticides before they realized how important bees were... Now they suck ours from their hives in the night and take them back with them to pollinate almonds.

Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 07, 2013, 07:06:08 am
As the "ultimate Socialist" insect perhaps honeybees are simply rebelling against Capitalism. 

Lets be honest, capitalism has NOT helped bees at all.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 07, 2013, 07:32:18 am


I have followed these cases closely and I concluded that CCD usually follows the consumption of contaminated pollen late in the season, July and August in most places.


what means "follow closely"?
- what kind of researcher education you have
- what kind of measurement you have done
- who pays your laboratory tests
- where your researches have published?

- why CCD losses in Scotland have not been mentioned in the newest raport 2013, which UK published?

- if a person is a real international reseacher and university pays her fee, this kind of forums are not right place to hang on and waste taxpayers'  money.

.
.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Stromnessbees on March 07, 2013, 09:23:04 am
No need to get aliens involved, neonics are a much more realistic danger.

I have been trained as scientific researcher, but I don't work as such.
Hence I am free to study topics and write about them without restrictions.  :)

Scientists in general risk being cut off from grant money if their results go against industry interests.  

Furthermore, most scientists are not beekeepers and might not have the understanding and the passion to get to the bottom of this problem.


Here an interesting study from Germany, which tries to prove that maize pollen reduces the lifespan of bees:


Evaluation of the nutritive value of maize for honey bees

Nicole Höcherl Reinhold Siede Ingrid Illies Heike Gätschenberger Jürgen Tautz

BEEGroup, Biozentrum Universität Würzburg, Am Hubland, D-97074 Würzburg, Germany
LLH Bieneninstitut Kirchhain, Erlenstraße 9, D-35274 Kirchhain, Germany
LWG, Fachzentrum Bienen, An der Steige 15, D-97209 Veitshöchheim, Germany

Received 23 September 2011
Received in revised form 1 December 2011
Accepted 2 December 2011
Available online 7 December 2011

abstract

In modern managed agro-ecosystems, the supply of adequate food from blooming crops is limited to brief periods. During periods of pollen deficiencies, bees are forced to forage on alternative crops, such as maize. However, pollen of maize is believed to be a minor food source for bees as it is thought to be lacking in proteins and essential amino acids. This study was conducted to verify this assumption. In maize, a strikingly low concentration of histidine was found, but the amount of all other essential amino acids was greater than that of mixed pollen. The performance and the immunocompetence of bees consuming a pure maize pollen diet (A) was compared to bees feeding on a polyfloral pollen diet (B) and to bees feeding on an artificial substitute of pollen (C). Consumption of diets A and C were linked to a reduction in brood rearing and lifespan. However, no immunological effects were observed based on two parameters of the humoral immunity.

http://www.hobos.de/fileadmin/Publikationen/145_Hoecherl....pdf (http://www.hobos.de/fileadmin/Publikationen/145_Hoecherl....pdf)


Here's the snag:

Quote
...
Mixed pollen was collected by bees in June 2009 during the off-bloom period of maize using commercial pollen traps. The pollen loads were removed daily in the evening and frozen to 18C. Before the pollen was fed to the bees (colonies and caged bees) the pollen loads were ground and later mixed with honeydew honey (fir tree) to create a paste (ratio 2.5:1, wt/wt). Maize pollen (variety ‘‘Athletico’’ KWS, Einbeck, Germany) was collected by hand,...



No indication if this maize was treated with neonics or not!

The poor results on the maize pollen diet might well have come from pesticides rather than from poor nutrition.

Bees tend to compensate for poor amino acid content in pollen simply by eating more of it, and I had my bees taking in lots of untreated maize pollen without any ill effect, they were thriving. This was in the '90s in Austria, my bees foraged on maize in summer while other pollen was in short supply.



Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 07, 2013, 09:49:24 am
So, maybe its the Corn  :-D  Well, it 'could' be.

As humans expand corn production around the world along with all its required added chemicals, and bees have less and less variety of plants to forage, thus becoming increasingly dependant on a source of pollen that they wouldn't normally take home anyway..............................

I think we may be on to something here  ;)   Today's 'industrial corn' is a far cry from what it was even in the 90's.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 07, 2013, 11:05:30 am

Evaluation of the nutritive value of maize for honey bees


at least you do not understand much about bee nutrition. Wind pollinated plants like corn are poor food to bees.

That corn research means nothing. They made a serious research and you "believe".

There are in Australia kiwi fruit plantations and kiwi pollen's nutrition value is zero.
Alfa alfa field is bad too for bees.


 
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 07, 2013, 01:12:16 pm
The problem with massive corn (mono culture) fields and the chemicals necessary for its dominion around the globe are the 'perimeters' where bees are attracted to weeds' loaded w/ whatever the farmer placed on their corn or in the dust in the soil...........well, you get the idea.

As Finski said, corn isn't a first choice for bees in fact its a poor choice, BUT IF THAT'S ALL THEY CAN FIND IN ABUNDANCE..........perhaps we should just ban corn?  :-D

One could probably replace corn with just about any other major 'industrialized' crop that bees 'may or may not' feed on directly, but be feeding on something else nearby, yet are still exposed to "who knows what" before returning home.

I still say the 'primary cause' and spread of CCD is BAD BEEKEEPING.  :-D 

Has anyone offered a location where CCD, dwindling (bad beekeeping), whatever someone/anyone wants to call it (massive bee die off?), isn't happening?  :?
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 07, 2013, 02:28:15 pm
.
If bees have only corn, is it easier to move hives off from  fields?

What in heck a beekeeper thinks if he puts his hives on corn field?
How many hives per hectar?

It is same with wheat, hay, or what ever which do not give yield.

But the truth seems to be that hives become sick if they are too much on monoculture fields.
Blueberry, granberry, strawberry. They are not good  food sources. Sunflower pollen has too quite poor nutrition value.
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 07, 2013, 03:30:00 pm
Finski;  Have you been to America's Midwest?  What you describe is precisely what many American Beeks deliberately do.

If someone wants to keep honeybees and they live say, in IOWA or anywhere surrounded by mono culture and/or w/ limited wild forage availability, their bees will likely consume great quantities of corn pollen along with whatever chemical residue remains on the weeds within the perimeters of the fields.  They have little choice but to consume substandard nourishment or die and it seems to me, that's exactly what many are doing. 

Add to that the example of the current practice of shipping bees all over the country, selling package bees around the US after they've built up as colonies on almonds in California, starting out 'who knows' where, causing considerable stress on an already stressed insect.

What causes CCD?  WE DO!
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: Finski on March 07, 2013, 04:39:34 pm
Finski;  Have you been to America's Midwest?  What you describe is precisely what many American Beeks deliberately do.

If someone wants to keep honeybees and they live say, in IOWA or anywhere surrounded by mono culture and/or w/ limited wild forage availability, their bees will likely consume great quantities of corn pollen along with whatever chemical residue remains on the weeds within the perimeters of the fields.  They have little choice but to consume substandard nourishment or die and it seems to me, that's exactly what many are doing. 

Add to that the example of the current practice of shipping bees all over the country, selling package bees around the US after they've built up as colonies on almonds in California, starting out 'who knows' where, causing considerable stress on an already stressed insect.

What causes CCD?  WE DO!

you describe it well, I think.

I write just an article about bee nutrition.
I have never thought nutrition in this way:

A bee egg  grows 5 fold every day during 6 day..
Growing is 1000 fold.

First 3 days and larva is only 5% out its final weight. The final swelling happens on last half of larva life.

Even if brood cycle is 3 weeks, the food feeded in 5 days must be something special.

The hive must feed for example 5000 larvae at same time with huge speed, week after week.
How can we disturbe them? Making all kind of tricks to "encourage them".
But have the bees asked to help them?

This perhaps explain something when hives are taken to their pollination tournament.
Perhaps they not  stand all what we believe. They are just bugs.
.

 
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: T Beek on March 07, 2013, 05:38:41 pm
Bugs we love, none the less  :)
Title: Re: places without CCD
Post by: derekm on April 22, 2013, 12:07:17 pm
CCD ... A Limp liberal imaginary disorder, along with DDT, PBB,  PCB, CJD, DU, silicosis, Mesothelioma, Global warming, thalidomide  and saving the whales.

Any one for a Neonicotinoid fed Steak? or would you rather a cigar?