Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: iddee on November 26, 2011, 08:49:04 pm

Title: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: iddee on November 26, 2011, 08:49:04 pm

Subject: Kiss GE Goodbye
 
General Electric is planning to move its 115-year-old X-ray division from Waukesha, Wis., to Beijing. In addition to moving the headquarters, the company will invest $2 billion in China and train more than 65 engineers and create six research centers. This is the same GE that made $5.1 billion in the United States last year. but paid no taxes-the same company that employs more people overseas than it does in the united States.
 
So let me get this straight. President Obama appointed GE Chairman Jeff Immelt to head his commission on job creation (job czar). Immelt is supposed to help create jobs. I guess the President forgot to tell him in which country he was supposed to be creating those jobs.
If this doesn't show you the total lack of leadership of this President, I don't know what does. Please pass this information to others and think about it before you buy a GE product.




http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/27/ge-moving-x-ray-business-to-china-what-message-is-sent-to-u-s/ (http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/27/ge-moving-x-ray-business-to-china-what-message-is-sent-to-u-s/)
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: AllenF on November 26, 2011, 09:40:04 pm
Don't hate me, but if I owned a company like GE and had 2 billion to invest and since I don't like paying taxes, I would move out of the country also.  To stay competitive in a global market where you are selling against companies that have lower labor wages and pay less in taxes, you have have to move or die.   I don't understand how they made 5.1 billion and got away without paying any taxes.   Maybe loop holes or investments.   But you have to do something to stay alive today.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 27, 2011, 12:40:52 am
Wow, maybe I ate some bad Turkey, but I have to agree with iddee on this one.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: rgy on November 27, 2011, 10:06:23 am
job creation in this country is dead until this administration is gone and his job killing policies are gone.  Who is going to create jobs when you still don't know what the disastrous Obama-care is going to cost you?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: sterling on November 27, 2011, 06:45:41 pm
Don't hate me, but if I owned a company like GE and had 2 billion to invest and since I don't like paying taxes, I would move out of the country also.  To stay competitive in a global market where you are selling against companies that have lower labor wages and pay less in taxes, you have have to move or die.   I don't understand how they made 5.1 billion and got away without paying any taxes.   Maybe loop holes or investments.   But you have to do something to stay alive today.
That may explain why GE would move but does not explain why Obama would hire Immelt to be his job czar. :? The United States job czar :?
You would be hard pressed to find one competent person in this administration.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 28, 2011, 07:23:39 am
I generally stay away from this place (too many complainers offering too few solutions), but its getting cold and Hunting season is over till next year...so........(meat in the freezer (or jars) is as good as wood in the woodshed 8-)

In a so-called 'free country' whining and complaining (name calling) about 'any' administration and then blaming 'it' for all your 'perceived' troubles is about as far away from democracy as one can get IMO.  In case some have forgotten, Obama only appointed Immelt to satisfy the demands from the right, or have some of you been misinformed?  And GE has been doing its dirty business for a very long time, well before Obama was even born (there it is, if you have to put a face on the problem, its that little electric guy from GE, now that's a good place to start).  

For those earnest students of history out there you already know; Its hard to please everyone in a democracy and ours is a particularly messy one, but just compaining about it does little to correct anything and in fact helps those who wish to do us harm (see the cat, see the cradle).  And just voting every four years, that really counts for very little IMO.  It is our duty as 'freedom loving people' (right???) to be involved and aware every day, not just on election day (too few of us are aware even on that day).  

What happened to America?  We happened to America.  The mess we find ourselves can be blamed only on us, not the 'tools and fools' we send to elected office, and most Americans are either too lazy or too overwhelmed (by debt or TV) to do anything other than survive another day, week, month.........and endlessly complain instead of getting involved.

Its 'your' country people, get busy if you got a gripe.  Get involved with the process (sorry, but that doesn't include sitting on the sidelines complaining, wah-wah) before we all lose the right to change things (we're pretty close already as most can attest).  Get informed (start by changing the channel....often or better yet, just turn that crap off and go to the nearest library).

There's no such thing as an innocent bystander, cuz if you're just standing by (complaining), you're not innocent (you're the problem).  

Sorry if anyone is offended by this rant, but sometimes this site needs some reality injected (be happy I don't visit more often :-D

So, bring on the clowns, idiots need not apply :-D

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: buzzbee on November 28, 2011, 08:32:41 am
TBeek,
I don't see anything wrong in your post. It is truly the electorate that has happened to our country.
 But a lot of this also falls back on the education system.The last thing they seem to teach anymore is American History. We are so hell bent on absorbing all these other cultures and teaching that we have to tolerate every crackpot idea that washes up on our shores that we are losing our culture to foreign invaders.
 Remember apologizing to the Japanese for winning a war they started? We do not have to be sorry for being Americans.
  We need to stand proud,elect people that represent us, and do better at informing people of a candidates policies rather than worry about what music he listens to,what kind of underwear he wears.
If we get rid of the blame America and apologists in the Capitol,we can make strides in the other direction.Vote for someone that represents your ideals,not the popular guy.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: iddee on November 28, 2011, 08:58:50 am
Some may call it whining and complaining, where others call it communication and forming a consensus.

Without it, we as a citizenry, cannot make the changes that need to be made.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 28, 2011, 09:27:28 am
So what are you saying iddee?  Do you think China is better for business than the US?  Do you think we should emulate China's industrial policy?  Or is it just a matter of cheap, well educated labor? 

The US under the Bush administration stopped investing in education and infrastructure.   If we don't educate kids or repair bridges or build mass transit.... then of course China is going to win.  They are doing now the things we did as a nation in the 1950s and 1960s.   They are doing what we did to build our nation.   Our top marginal tax rate in the 1950s was 85%.   High marginal tax rates don't inhibit growth.... they fund growth.

Obama is showing outstanding leadership.  Republicans in Congress have a problem with followership.  They are putting their party plans ahead of the interests of the country.  Specifically, they are blocking legislation that they originally proposed themselves... just because Obama is suggesting it.   Now Obama is suggesting that we maintain the cut in payroll taxes, but Republicans want a tax increase on the working class.  And  you criticize Obama?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 28, 2011, 10:02:59 am
The 'dumbing down' of American schools (and us) and the amount of indebtedness now incurred when attending our universities is no accident.  Our true priorities in this Country have been usurped and forgone, replaced by profits for the few, while most citizens are asleep at the wheel or shopping at the mall and having their pockets picked.

However, in a free society where information is widely available there is never an excuse  for just "following the leader"  because you'll be led over a cliff while your (and your neighbors) pockets are picked by doing so (see 1980-present).  So while we can certainly blame the 'direction' our education system has taken, its still 'our' fault for allowing it and as said, The 'truth' is out there, you just have to look (as opposed to repeating the crap started by some tool for the elite)

This is nothing new.  Distractions (and divisions) have been a tool for the powerful for thousands of years.  Yet despite advances in communication humans are still mostly motivated and thus manipulated by those with the most power (and dollars equal power) and their loudmouths on the airwaves.

Americans should be taking a clue from Egyptians and Syrians, along with our brown skinned brothers and sisters from South America.  They're showing us what democracy 'by the people' really looks like, because they are willing to die for it (as are some of the 'occupy' folks IMO, never saw any Tea party members camping on the concret for months!).  

Americans have mostly forgotten that it takes effort to keep a Country free from tyranny (and I don't mean sending our youth off to fight "rich men wars" I mean fighting against rich men who only want to get richer by sending our youth to war) whether from the outside or the inside.  

Last I heard the percentage of Americans who regularly challenge their elected officials, either by mail or phone or by showing up at meetings and/or "occupations" (we still have a right to assemble) when issues are being addressed is less than .001%.  

"THAT" is why we have a plutocracy instead of a democracy in America and THAT is precisely what 'some' of our founders had in mind from the very beginning and what 'real' conservatives (the wealthy elite) want today.  

The U.S Constitution is what we've got and we should all thank our lucky stars (or whom/what ever you pray to)  that we have it still to fall back on, once we finish rubbing the sleep from our eyes that is.  I just hope its not too late and Americans begin resulting to the 'Mussolini' fix.  Some are already using that type of Rhetoric when referencing the President and I wonder if they felt the same under the last administration.  

I know of many who NEVER gave this Country a thought, most never even bothered to vote in an election of any kind until Obama took office.  Now all of a sudden they've become experts because they follow a certain blowhard.  Really?  Is that all it takes?  

IMO That's just lazy and lazy Americans deserve exactly what "we" all have to contend with in this Country I'm afraid.  

Its always frustrating to see how many continue to serve the masters when its the master screwing them, then blaming everyone but themselves :roll: for their own lack of participation.  

I take the phrase "Question Authority"  very seriously (and have the scars to prove it), it is our right, but more importantly it is our responsibility (that is unless one enjoys giving all the fruits of ones labor to the crooks and sociopaths of this world).  

Complaining and blaming without 'direct action' (putting your neck out) is the easy way to nowhere.  

How can one call someone(s) or their beliefs an IDIOT and then claim to be forming a consensus?????? :?

Whew, that's about enough of that for a Monday morning :) heh?  Don't know what got into me ;)

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 28, 2011, 10:26:03 am
Some may call it whining and complaining, where others call it communication and forming a consensus.

Without it, we as a citizenry, cannot make the changes that need to be made.


What does that even mean?  The changes that 'need' to be made.

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 10:32:47 am
Quote
In a so-called 'free country' whining and complaining (name calling) about 'any' administration and then blaming 'it' for all your 'perceived' troubles is about as far away from democracy as one can get IMO
.

that's good. we aren't a democracy so it's nice that we aren't acting like one....except that this admin would already be gone....oh well.

Quote
In case some have forgotten, Obama only appointed Immelt to satisfy the demands from the right, or have some of you been misinformed?


which demand was this?

Quote
Its hard to please everyone in a democracy and ours is a particularly messy one, but just compaining about it does little to correct anything and in fact helps those who wish to do us harm (see the cat, see the cradle).  


and again....not a democracy
and complaining about politics is one of the hallmarks of freedom.  it's what those in countries run by totalitarian government don't get to do.  it, in fact, is a sport that goes back to our founding.

Quote
Its 'your' country people, get busy if you got a gripe.  Get involved with the process (sorry, but that doesn't include sitting on the sidelines complaining, wah-wah)

ah, a tea party fan!!

Quote
So what are you saying iddee?  Do you think China is better for business than the US?  Do you think we should emulate China's industrial policy?  Or is it just a matter of cheap, well educated labor?  

The US under the Bush administration stopped investing in education and infrastructure.   If we don't educate kids or repair bridges or build mass transit.... then of course China is going to win.  They are doing now the things we did as a nation in the 1950s and 1960s.   They are doing what we did to build our nation.   Our top marginal tax rate in the 1950s was 85%.   High marginal tax rates don't inhibit growth.... they fund growth.

Obama is showing outstanding leadership.  Republicans in Congress have a problem with followership.  They are putting their party plans ahead of the interests of the country.  Specifically, they are blocking legislation that they originally proposed themselves... just because Obama is suggesting it.   Now Obama is suggesting that we maintain the cut in payroll taxes, but Republicans want a tax increase on the working class.  And  you criticize Obama?

the US under the bush admin did not stop investing in anything.  in fact, there was a massive increase.  there was a massive increase on almost all spending under Bush.  this made us unhappy....but guess what?  obama has so far outdone him that no one will remember the spending under bush  :-)

define leadership please.  and give some examples of the leadership that obama is showing?

Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Hemlock on November 28, 2011, 10:35:24 am
Do you think China is better for business than the US?
GE and a bunch of other businesses do

Do you think we should emulate China's industrial policy?
Unsustainable suicide

Or is it just a matter of cheap, well educated labor?
Cheap & well educated doesn't exist!  The only thing any government wants is 'Cheap & compliant'.  Hence the current education & labor policies; regardless of WHO made them. (*)

High marginal tax rates don't inhibit growth.... they fund growth.
Sorry Frame.  While drawing breath i will not be convinced that taking away money from the private sector doesn't diminish Innovation.  And that giving money to the government doesn't create 'Direct & Immediate' corruption.

(*) - the 'Bush' argument doesn't work on Conservatives & Constitutionalists since they blame him for more things than you might.   Your adherence to 'Blame Bush First' comes off as weak and formulaic as your 'Obama is great" attitude.  You are very intelligent and your energies can be better spent on more compelling arguments.


Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 28, 2011, 11:11:20 am

Do you think we should emulate China's industrial policy?
Unsustainable suiside

If that's true, we have nothing to worry about.  But I don't see anything that's makes China's policies unsustainable on a timescale that will save our bacon.  If China stops investing in education and infrastructure, their growth rate will drop and they will become politically unstable.  They have to grow at 8% to keep their citizens from getting too interested in politics.   Yes, eventually their growth will run up against environmental limits (global warming) but they will take us down with them.
Quote

Or is it just a matter of cheap, well educated labor?
Cheap & well educated doesn't exist!  The only thing any government wants is 'Cheap & compliant'.  Hence the current education & labor policies; regardless of WHO made them. (*)

The only thing any corporation wants is cheap and compliant.

High marginal tax rates don't inhibit growth.... they fund growth.
Sorry Frame.  While drawing breath i will not be convinced that taking away money from the private sector doesn't diminish Innovation.  And that giving money to the government doesn't create 'Direct & Immediate' corruption.

My view is that the free market is the engine that powers the economy.  But a car can't get anywhere with only an engine.  You have to have a steering wheel.  Market mechanisms can't decide where society wants to go.  That's what representative democracy is for.   Once you have a plan, markets are good for executing the plan in the most efficient way.   For example, we need mass transit.  Government has to pay for it, at least in the early stages just as it did for the space program.  But government is not good at managing large projects.  So the best way is for government to decide the capacity needs for transit and then let free enterprise bid to produce the system at the lowest cost.... with strict penalties for failure to meet quality and deadline requirements.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 28, 2011, 11:23:26 am
the US under the bush admin did not stop investing in anything.  in fact, there was a massive increase.  there was a massive increase on almost all spending under Bush.  this made us unhappy....but guess what?  obama has so far outdone him that no one will remember the spending under bush  :-)
Under Bush the support for education and infrastructure was pathetic.  Bush spent money on war.  Just spending money does not constitute investment in the country
Quote
define leadership please.  and give some examples of the leadership that obama is showing?
The American Jobs Act.   Corporations are sitting on $2 trillion in cash, waiting for somebody else to kick-start the economy.  That has to be government because private business is not going to do it.  Waiting for business to take a risk in this environment is asking for a depression.  Obama is trying to stimulate job creation by investments in education and infrastructure.  That is leadership.  And many of the ideas he is proposing were originally Republican ideas.  The same Republicans who proposed these steps now vote against them just to make Obama look like he can't get anything done.  The solution is to vote Republicans out of the Congress.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 28, 2011, 11:29:48 am

Americans should be taking a clue from Egyptians and Syrians, along with our brown skinned brothers and sisters from South America.  They're showing us what democracy 'by the people' really looks like, because they are willing to die for it (as are some of the 'occupy' folks IMO, never saw any Tea party members camping on the concret for months!).  

I think OWS was going to happen anyway but was triggered early by the Arab Spring.   When people have no future, they don't have anything to lose.  I am grateful that... so far.... OWS has managed to remain non-violent.  I hope the Congress takes a look and decides they need to fix things before the OWS folks decide that emulating the Civil Rights movement of the 60's does not work.
Quote

Americans have mostly forgotten that it takes effort to keep a Country free from tyranny (and I don't mean sending our youth off to fight "rich men wars" I mean fighting against rich men who only want to get richer by sending our youth to war) whether from the outside or the inside.  

Exactly right Thomas.  I admire the people who risk their physical safety by exercising their right to peaceable assembly.  I am not so brave myself so I have made monetary contributions to OWS.  I think I have a responsibility to do something.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Hemlock on November 28, 2011, 11:48:41 am
If that's true, we have nothing to worry about.
Oh, i phrased that wrong.  I should have included "for America to emulate". 

The only thing any corporation wants is cheap and compliant.
So do we mutually agree to support Small Business & Small Government??

You have to have a steering wheel.
THAT IS YOU & I. Not a government stooge looking for votes.

Market mechanisms can't decide where society wants to go.
Yes WE do.  We ARE the market.  That's why education is so important and why my kid is home schooled.

representative democracy
*Representative Republic.

Heading out to the field.  Catch y'all later.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 12:36:26 pm
http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/edhistory.pdf (http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/edhistory.pdf)

Quote
Under Bush the support for education and infrastructure was pathetic.  Bush spent money on war.  Just spending money does not constitute investment in the country

first, it's not the feds job to fund education.  second, we spend more per student than any 1st world country, save one.  third...and again....google is your friend.  fact checking is a simple thing.

Quote
The American Jobs Act.   Corporations are sitting on $2 trillion in cash, waiting for somebody else to kick-start the economy.  That has to be government because private business is not going to do it.  Waiting for business to take a risk in this environment is asking for a depression.  Obama is trying to stimulate job creation by investments in education and infrastructure.  That is leadership.  And many of the ideas he is proposing were originally Republican ideas.  The same Republicans who proposed these steps now vote against them just to make Obama look like he can't get anything done.  The solution is to vote Republicans out of the Congress.

have you read the jobs act?  it is a second stimulus program after the 1st one worked oh so well!  if you can point out where it will "save or create jobs" we'd all be thrilled to see.
you can't take money out of the private sector, pump it into the public sector, and create anything but more debt.  where does the government get it's money?  it taxes, prints, or borrows. this is not economic growth, it is a temporary fix to make an admin look better.

i'm not sure why liberals have such a hard time understanding how the economy works.  it's not that hard.

Quote
I think OWS was going to happen anyway but was triggered early by the Arab Spring.   When people have no future, they don't have anything to lose.  I am grateful that... so far.... OWS has managed to remain non-violent.  I hope the Congress takes a look and decides they need to fix things before the OWS folks decide that emulating the Civil Rights movement of the 60's does not work.

since the problem is with government, you'd like congress to do what, exactly?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 28, 2011, 01:04:19 pm
So do we mutually agree to support Small Business & Small Government??
I have no problem with big business as long as government does it's job in regulating business.  What you can't do is trust big business to look out for the interests of the public.   The period of fastest growth in the US  (late 50s and 60s) coincides with the grand alliance of big business, big government,, and big labor.  They cut a deal that worked.  Without a strong labor movement and without government regulation, big business gets very very greedy.  That's where our problems are coming from.  

Small business is great and I want our tax policies to favor business formation.  But small business can't do everything that needs to be done.  A small business can't build a mass transit system.

Market mechanisms can't decide where society wants to go.
Yes WE do.  We ARE the market.  
We are the government because it's one person/ one vote.  We are not the market because it's one dollar/ one vote.  The market will decide what's best for the people with the most money.   Representative government is designed to determine what the people want.  But that is where the problem is.  Corporations are being allowed to contribute to political campaigns.  So once again, dollars are voting.  I agree with you that education is the cure for that disease, but home schooling is not enough because lots are parents don't know enough to adequately teach their kids.  We need strong public education.

I think your idea that WE are the market works when there is a large middle class, so that the money in the market is spread in a more even way.  But we now have the greatest concentration of wealth since the 1910s.  So the middle class is no longer the market.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 28, 2011, 01:29:22 pm
have you read the jobs act?  it is a second stimulus program after the 1st one worked oh so well! 

The first one did work.  The OMB says It created or saved 2 million jobs.  And it turned around the collapse in jobs.  When Obama came in we were losing net jobs at a rate of 700,000 per month.  After Obama had been in a year, we were gaining jobs.  That is a huge turn-around.  We are in trouble now because the money from the first stimulus has run out and companies still refuse to invest in America.  Is there no patriotic duty on the part of these big businesses to save the country that makes it possible for them to operate?  If so, they need to get on with it.  If not, the government has to do it.
Quote
i'm not sure why liberals have such a hard time understanding how the economy works.  it's not that hard.

Yeah, that always makes me laugh.  It's like children who wonder why their parents have such a hard time understanding that they should be allowed to run across a highway without looking.  It's not that hard to run across the road.   :-D   

Right wing types(some of them) have grasped the basics of supply and demand and they think that makes them geniuses.  They think that liberals just don't understand supply and demand.  Afterall, it's soooo simple.  Yes, it is in it's basic theoretical formulation, and (at least some) liberals understand the law of supply and demand.  But they also know that it's an ideal, simplistic model of economic reality. 

For example, a free market requires perfect knowledge.  Supply and demand works to optimize the price only when buyer and seller have perfect knowledge of the availability of goods and the distribution of prices.  But that rarely happens in a market larger than a village.  If there is a large supply at a low price just down the road and you don't know about it, you will pay an incorrect price.  So there is a role for government in requiring transparency and fair distribution of information about pricing.  That's why insider trading is illegal.  That's why there are laws about what may be advertised as a "sale price".    And that's why there is a minimum wage.   Business can't be trusted to treat customers or employees fairly.  If we want a fair economic system, we need government regulation to prevent fraud, price gouging, etc. 

Now, if you want to revoke the ability of businesses to declare bankruptcy while protecting the personal assets of their owners, maybe we could talk.   :-D
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Poppi on November 28, 2011, 01:32:32 pm
WOW!!!   I had no idea just how many of you have no idea the principles this country was founded upon and are letting the Marxist/Socialist agenda of this administration brainwash you...   You go Iddee...  with you all the way... 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: iddee on November 28, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Poppi, Your tag line tells me it is time to stop arguing in this thread. Thanks for the reminder.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 01:52:58 pm
 :-D
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 02:22:14 pm
i do have to admit that i am curious about what FRAME would like to see the govt do?  what new regulations, etc. 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 28, 2011, 02:24:45 pm

For example, a free market requires perfect knowledge.  Supply and demand works to optimize the price only when buyer and seller have perfect knowledge of the availability of goods and the distribution of prices.  But that rarely happens in a market larger than a village.  If there is a large supply at a low price just down the road and you don't know about it, you will pay an incorrect price.  So there is a role for government in requiring transparency and fair distribution of information about pricing.  That's why insider trading is illegal.  That's why there are laws about what may be advertised as a "sale price".    And that's why there is a minimum wage.   Business can't be trusted to treat customers or employees fairly.  If we want a fair economic system, we need government regulation to prevent fraud, price gouging, etc. 

We have all that already.  

I think what we are discussing now is making that government "police force" bigger than the village market that it is policing.  And the "protection" money that it demands to do that.  To the point that the villagers are leaving and going to village markets where they don't need to pay as much protection money, or get beat up if they talk to the "police" wrong.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 28, 2011, 02:38:01 pm
Really? Only liberals (whatever that is) have a hard time with economics?  Sorry but thats just a 'mean-spirited' lie, nothing more, nothing less.  Shame on those who spread lies for the puppet masters.

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 03:03:08 pm
T i'm guessing that was directed at me.  here is the quote: 
Quote
i'm not sure why liberals have such a hard time understanding how the economy works.  it's not that hard.

i see no "only" in there.  however, it is liberals the do seem to have the most difficulty grasping basic market concepts.  for my purposes, a liberal is anyone who believes salvation is in government programs and regulations. 

if you think my question and definition are mean spirited, i think perhaps you are a little thin skinned.....or a liberal?  your choice......
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 28, 2011, 04:04:58 pm
Shame on those who spread lies for the puppet masters.

 kathyp IS the puppet master!!! :evil:
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 04:11:51 pm
i have to admit that it is fun to yank a string here and there  :evil: 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 28, 2011, 04:59:27 pm
John Birch is alive and well on Beemaster :roll:

Nationwide our citizen police have arrested over one thousand "occupiers."  How many from Wall Street have received the same (well) deserved treatment?  You must understand who 'our' police work for under these circumstances.  As with any abuser, violence is only acceptable from top down.  Retribution from the abused is never acceptable.  That's why they are peaceful....for now.  One must not mistake pacifism (or liberalism) for someone unwilling to fight and die for a just cause.

FYI; the original plan with OWS was to 'occupy' the park in front of JP Chase at Chase Plaza, you know, those guys (and gals)who stole billions, helped crash our economy, took billions in tax payer payoffs, passes out multimillion dollar bonuses, refuses to lend capital (despite being charged a NEGATIVE RATE by US), and is still lobbying Congress to gouge us more and kill recent regs that might put them all in jail if they continue the present course), but the CEO (Jamie Dimon) caught wind of it and wrote a check out to the NY Police Foundation for 4.6 million and the Chase Plaza was 'pre-emptively' shut down.  

This is but one tiny example of how authority works in America (and the rest of the world too) and is exactly why people are in the streets today camping out on concrete.  Even tea partiers have been joining OWS since the Tea party has pretty much been exposed for the tool they've become "from all the money" that poured into it, along with all those nasty politicians ;)

Thin skinned?  Look in the mirror.  Kathyp is hardly a puppet master, sorry, although she might be working for some of them :-D.

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: buzzbee on November 28, 2011, 06:11:32 pm
Lets not forget that the occupy crowd was making the park unavailable for the rest of the public. It was becoming squalor and unsanitary
which made the park unsuitable for others.
 Do you really think shutting the doors of every corporation in America will help?
Or just the chosen few,chosen by whom?

I'd like to know why these people are not camped out in front of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.
They've taken money directly from the taxpayers and blew it and are perfect examples of what these OWS CROWD SAY AHAT THEY ARE AGAINST.
But I guess if these agencies have approval of Barney Frank and others it's different.



Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 06:22:32 pm
Quote
FYI; the original plan with OWS was to 'occupy' the park in front of JP Chase at Chase Plaza, you know, those guys (and gals)who stole billions, helped crash our economy, took billions in tax payer payoffs, passes out multimillion dollar bonuses, refuses to lend capital (despite being charged a NEGATIVE RATE by US), and is still lobbying Congress to gouge us more and kill recent regs that might put them all in jail if they continue the present course), but the CEO (Jamie Dimon) caught wind of it and wrote a check out to the NY Police Foundation for 4.6 million and the Chase Plaza was 'pre-emptively' shut down.


you may not like what they did, but it's not against the law.  and, those banks paid back what they took...some under duress, with interest....unlike the auto industries, who have not, and will not, pay back what they were "loaned". 

OWS may have some valid points, but they are protesting in the wrong place.  if companies are in bed with government, it is because government threw back the sheets.  want to protest?  do it in front of congress and the white house.  companies do what they  need to do to survive what government throws at them.  governments buy into companies because government is corrupt.  crony capitalism is a problem, but it comes from government.

and so i say again....if liberals understood anything about business and the economy, they wouldn't be crapping in a park, they'd be crapping in the halls of congress and on the white house lawn.  we don't need more government.  that's how this started.  we need less.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 28, 2011, 06:52:50 pm
To big to fail is too big to exist.  Tar and feathering sounds like a good place to start with some of them.

The Chase Plaza is/was/remains a barely used (unless you count the company smokers) expansive piece of concrete (its just one reason that site was selected).

Occupiers 'are' in DC performing their civic duty, have been for a while now.  Many marched the 230 miles from NYC arriving just today.  The locals best get used to it.  "this aint no tea party"

Have any of you ever tried getting close to the White House recently, much less camp on the lawn?  The authorities rarely 'allow' camping on the Mall (our Mall) anymore, done that more than a few times, it helped end a war one time 8-) long ago.

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 07:22:24 pm
let them stay, but let every group of them put up a million dollar bond to pay for the police and the damages.  there's no reason the tax payers should have to foot the bill for civil disobedience.  they are there by choice, let them pay for it. 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: SEEYA on November 28, 2011, 07:23:31 pm
I think that if our leader had just a little help from the party who's ONLY objective :evil: is to elect a Republican ( and to H*** with anything else): We would be alot better off! When President Clinton signed NAFTA :evil:, EVERY President alive at the time was there APPLAUDING :shock:! When President Nixon visited China, all the CW, said it was a good thing. I worked at a factory that went to Juarez,  Mexico in 2006, the Moron in Chief (at the time) was too busy running up our national debt to notice! ( How can you fund 2 wars - Give the rich a Tax break :roll:!!!??? AHH YEAAA?)
And : How do you spell incompetent? I dunno I thik it beegens witha DUBYA!

now, that I'm on a roll; There seems to be a lot of people on this forum, that believe government regulation is a bad thing. How many families of dead Chinese coal miners would like a little governmental regulation? How many Chinese babies were poisoned, because there was No government regulation? How many species have been brought back from the brink of extinction, because of government regulation? How many tax dollars, have been spent to help save the honey bee?
 
Who hollars the loudest? The man whose ox got gored! Leave my ox alone and I will return the favor!

I don't know which a fends me more: insinuating I'm an Idiot or calling PRESIDENT Obama " Worthless"  
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 07:34:09 pm
well ray, i don't know you well enough to say you are an idiot.  i don't think the president is worthless.  to the progressive agenda, he's worth lots. 

why did your company go to Mexico?  what do you think the president should have done to stop that? 

has anyone said there should be no regulation of anything?  i have not.  i think there should be less, and that what there is should be well thought out.  we lost 100's of timber jobs in my area because of a spotted owl that wasn't in trouble and wasn't in the timber that they stopped cutting.  that's not smart regulation, is it?

i know!  if you want companies to stay in this country, how about if you don't regulate them to death?  maybe you'd like some wage control so that we are competitive?  how about retirement benefits brought in line with those in Mexico?  after all, there has to be some incentive for a company to stay.  if you want your money and your stuff, maybe the government shouldn't have the highest corporate tax in the world?  maybe there shouldn't be an unaccountable agency in Washington stopping the creation of factories in non-union states to favor their union buddies?  maybe there shouldn't be a war on  the oil and coal industry?

man...that bush guy...gone 3 years and it's still all his fault!  that's amazing.  bet he wished he'd known he had so much power that no one could overcome his legacy! 
oh....BTW....Obama had a majority congress for 2 years.  what did he do with that? oh!  he ran up the debt more than all presidents before him combined!
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: buzzbee on November 28, 2011, 07:47:00 pm
I'm guessing that with Obama having two full years of a Democrat controlled Congress with a super majority,all of our problems should have been solved. But instead,he was able to sign for more spending in two years than this nation ever racked up every year previous to that point.
 Government spending should be severely  cut before asking for a dime more of taxpayer money. This government does not have a revenue problem. It is a spending problem.
We had Congress passing unpopular bills in the middle of the night and Christmas Eve when people were less attentive to what they were doing.
Are people aware Congress is somewhat immune to insider trading. Nancy Pelosi made a lot of money on investments that she was privy to legislation that was to be passed and government contracts to be let.
There is enough blame to go around. Dubya was a bit too liberal on his policies as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2011, 08:23:15 pm
those banks paid back what they took...some under duress, with interest....unlike the auto industries, who have not, and will not, pay back what they were "loaned". 
Quote
...and again....google is your friend.  fact checking is a simple thing.
Chrysler re-paid its loans
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/25chrysler.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/25chrysler.html)

GM re-paid its loans:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-04-20-gm-loan_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-04-20-gm-loan_N.htm)

Maybe it’s time our Conservative friends do some Googling too :?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 09:01:45 pm
http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/autos/chrysler_government_exit/index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/autos/chrysler_government_exit/index.htm)

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/general-motors-debt/ (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/general-motors-debt/)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/business/02gret.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/business/02gret.html)

there's more if you need it.  yes, as a technical matter, they paid the loans, but they paid it with TARP money, so the taxpayer is still out.  and all that stock that never lived up to expectations??  you know, the stock that the govt bought and then gave to unions at a very discounted price?

when you google, you have to read past the 1st result....and know what questions to ask.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2011, 09:20:06 pm
yes, as a technical matter, they paid the loans,
LOL, we finally agree!  :-D

I almost feel like I can go on a long vacation now that we have some new enlightened souls in the coffee house  :)
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 09:25:17 pm
Quote
LOL, we finally agree!

but the tax payer is still out the money.  if that's how you define paying it back.....

would you have been as happy for the banks to pay back taxpayer loans with taxpayer loan money?  that  makes no sense.  that's like taking out a second mortgage to pay off the first.  you are still in debt....except in this case, it's just the rest of us left with the debt.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: buzzbee on November 28, 2011, 09:44:21 pm
From the USA Today article,go read beyond the headline:

GM got a total of $52 billion from the U.S. government and $9.5 billion from the Canadian and Ontario governments as it went through bankruptcy protection last year. At first the entire amount of U.S. aid was considered a loan as the government tried to keep GM from going under and pulling the fragile economy into a depression.

But during bankruptcy, the U.S. government reduced the loan portion to $6.7 billion and converted the rest to company stock, while the Canadian governments held $1.4 billion in loans.

The automaker hopes to repay the remaining $45.3 billion to the U.S. government and $8.1 billion to Canada via a public stock offering, perhaps later this year. The U.S. government now owns 61% of the company and Canada owns roughly 12%.

Thats how the government got into owning business in the US. Not a good thing.Thats 73 percent of a company owned by governments.

It looks like a good reason to never let them fail,we have too much invested. :-\
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2011, 10:09:28 pm
I agree with you Buzz, you are presenting the facts, not just propaganda.

Fact is the government DOES own a large part of these companies and saved MILLIONS of white collar, and blue collar jobs.  All the heads of the autos said they would be forced into liquidation due to the credit crunch created by the bank criminals without a source to credit.  Liquidation means no more domestic auto industry and everybody out of job.

With the government loans, the autos were able to go into bankruptcy INSTEAD of liquidation.  When a company goes bankrupt, the people holding the debts in the old entity are given large chunks of equity in the new entity with hopes of making a profit when the company issues stock to the public.  Called recapitalization.  Our tax payer loans got recapitilized into equity.

If the government wasn’t forced to sell off our equity position on a fixed time table, there is a descent chance we would make money off the stock.  However if you tell the Wall Streeters up front you are going to be unloading shares constantly for the next year, the odds are the stock prices keep getting pushed lower by the constant selling pressure.  Such has been the case  :(
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 28, 2011, 10:42:49 pm
Quote
With the government loans, the autos were able to go into bankruptcy INSTEAD of liquidation.  When a company goes bankrupt, the people holding the debts in the old entity are given large chunks of equity in the new entity with hopes of making a profit when the company issues stock to the public.  Called recapitalization.  Our tax payer loans got recapitilized into equity.


nope, sorry.  the bailout of the auto industry kept them from bankruptcy.  if they had been allowed to file, they could have redone those legacy costs and union wage costs that were the biggest drag on the bottom line.  this is the reason obama stepped in.  it saved the unions bottom line at the expense of the tax payer.

Quote
Fact is the government DOES own a large part of these companies and saved MILLIONS of white collar, and blue collar jobs.  All the heads of the autos said they would be forced into liquidation due to the credit crunch created by the bank criminals without a source to credit.  Liquidation means no more domestic auto industry and everybody out of job.

companies go out of business. that's life.  people still need cars.  cars would still be built. 
by what right does the government take the money of tax payers and decide which businesses will live an die?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2011, 10:44:00 pm
BTW… do you remember WHO owned Chrysler before the banking crisis?  

It was an American company in the 80s, and 90s.
Taken over by Daimler in the late 90s and owned by the Germans until 2007.
In 2007, private equity fund Cerberus bought out the Germans and thought they stole the company for a dime on the dollar.

Now here’s where it get’s interesting for our conspiracy loving crowd…

Do you remember who the Chairman of Cerberus International was at that time???

Answer:  It was Mr Potato Head himself…. Dan Quayle.

Quayle was Bush Seniors VP and Bush Junior bailed out Chrysler……Hmmmmmm
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 28, 2011, 10:57:21 pm
If you don't like who the chairman of Cerberus is, and think there is a conspiracy, why do you defend the action taken?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2011, 11:01:15 pm
If you don't like who the chairman of Cerberus is, and think there is a conspiracy, why do you defend the action taken?
Scads, LOL, I just threw that out there because I know how much some people LOVE conspiracy theories. 

Don't worry, I don't believe the Aliens in Rosewell did anything to Dubya's brain :-D
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: beee farmer on November 29, 2011, 12:48:47 am
Anybody remember a little american company that took a walk to Dubai and never came back (or paid American taxes again) by the name of Haliburtian?  Mr Bush let that happen.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 29, 2011, 07:15:10 am
"It is not a field of a few acres of ground, but a cause we are defending, and whether we defeat the enemy in one battle, or by degrees, the consequences will be the same."    -Thomas Paine

Some will have you believing that Marx or Lenin muttered these words (and perhaps they did at some point) but it was a favorite hero (Paine would've kicked Welch's butt) of the John Birchers (who can never resist corrupting his message for their own misguided purposes).  Is it any surprise that the KOCK Brothers Daddy was a founder of JBS?????

"Power to the people"    All of them!  If anyone thinks anyone on Wall-Street cares about you or your concerns and should not be closely regulated and monitored, you're a fool or a tool and neither has any value in a 'free' society, but since we're America, you're welcome to stay :-D

I have a friend who flew bombers during WWII. He has a saying that is fitting for these times "You know you're on target when you start getting alot of flack."  

Based on some of the content of these posts some of you must believe OWS is right on target, even those who disagree (whether they care to admit it is something else) or condemn their actions.

I get the feeling that some of you never use our highways, that you regularly run lights and stop signs, consider the USMC, Army, Air Force and Navy as useless Government entities, don't need protection from predatory lenders, don't care if the water coming into your homes is safe, or the food you buy from the local grocer isn't contaminated with some foreign substance that can/will eventually kill you.  After all, these are all controlled by Government entities.

Don't like the direction our Government is heading, or that it does too much or costs too much.  Then do something besides just bitching or blaming (some might actually learn something by getting involved :shock:).  I also get the feeling that some think they've never needed any government assistance (or simply won't admit it) but I feel an epiphany is coming their way once those services are NEEDED.  

We'll all see some paradigm shifts taking place then, heh 8-)?

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 29, 2011, 09:34:40 am
Nobody is arguing that there is no government needed.

But we want to keep it as small as possible.  Mr. Bush grew it in the name of defense, and now Mr. Obama is growing it in the name of...of...I'm not sure why but it is definitely a step toward socialism.

Paradigm shifts?  Toward what...making a giant entity even bigger? We can't afford to run the government that we have, what makes you think we can afford to make it bigger?  We need massive cuts, but we're getting massive increases in spending.

Here's my deal: I'm willing to pay more in taxes.  But there needs to be some effort to balance, not just cutting the increase in spending, otherwise it is throwing good money after bad.  If there aren't massive cuts, I'm going to fight tax increases tooth and nail.

That means that many government programs that we can't afford need to go. 

At the current rate, we will be Greece in 10 years or less.  But that will be ok, it is only rich people that the government owes money, right?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 29, 2011, 10:10:36 am
nope, sorry.  the bailout of the auto industry kept them from bankruptcy.  if they had been allowed to file, they could have redone those legacy costs and union wage costs that were the biggest drag on the bottom line.  this is the reason obama stepped in.  it saved the unions bottom line at the expense of the tax payer.

Kathy, you're just making it up now.   :roll:   Chrysler DID file bankruptcy in April, 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/business/01auto.html  (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/business/01auto.html) The union workers DID takes pay cuts.  And the reason the union survived at all is that they put their retirement fund on the line to finance the company and bring it back out of bankruptcy.  GM also went through bankruptcy.

There was an attempt to keep the companies functioning without bankruptcy, but that would have required the bond holders to agree to a write-down of their debt.  They refused so they lost everything in bankruptcy court.  
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 29, 2011, 11:08:00 am
"In order to avoid a future that will be painful for us all, we need a present that will be painful for a few."
   -Jon Stewart (for 10 years voted the most trusted man in America).

And for those already well-off, well how tough will it be to finally accept some responsibility for benefiting off the backs of the rest of the country/world?  They should have to bleed too.  The 150,000 or so multimillionaires (the 1%) can easily afford it and most pay a lesser tax rate then I ever had to running 'real' small businesses, especially when all deductions and benefits (entitlements) for the wealthy are included.  One less mansion, one less car or boat, oh my, for your country and fellow citizens.  They are a selfish bunch though :shock:.  Its hard to feel sorry for the greedy :roll: or their tools anymore, sorry. 

But its time once 'again'  (that's right folks, none of these shenanigans are new, just the methods have changed) for the rich to get off their merry-go-round and join the rest of us on the roller coaster (or is it the temple of doom?) 'they' helped create and continue to benefit from. 

The rich always make $$ from crisis, that's why they create them in the first place as any student of 'American peoples' history can explain.  If they don't figure it out for themselves soon there are some among us who are willing to take back by violence I'm afraid.  My hope is that they come around, but I'm not holding my breath, they still feel too safe.

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 29, 2011, 11:12:55 am
isn't it amusing that the same people who are supporting occupy and singing their praises, condemn the tea party.  one group has managed to destroy property, attract and engage in crime, rape women, interfere with commerce, cost cities millions, and generally stink up the place.  the other group has done just what has been suggested here; get involved and make demonstrable changes in the system

what's the difference?  liberals are attracted to an emotional message even when the message is unintelligible.  those folks may be confused, but THEY CARE, and caring is EVERYTHING!  besides, the libs in power don't really want an organized and successful move for change.  they want a group that they can use, but not a group that can force them to do anything.

so here is the thing:  when you go to town and can't get to the business that you want because of  OWS folks,  remember THEY CARE.  can't use the park because they trashed it, not to worry, THEY CARE,  police run out of money because they spent it on overtime at OWS protests?  it's ok.  the OWS people....THEY CARE.

put that in your head and it will be easier to deal with them.....until spring when they are reconstituted by the unions/communists and engage in the violence that we all know is coming......because THEY CARE.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 29, 2011, 11:15:36 am
Quote
And for those already well-off, well how tough will it be to finally accept some responsibility for benefiting off the backs of the rest of the country/world?  They should have to bleed too.

this is curious thinking to me.  first you assume that people are wealthy because they took for others.  then you assume that it's ok to take what they have and give it to others.  why is theft ok? 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 29, 2011, 12:00:39 pm
"One less mansion, one less car or boat, oh my, for your country and fellow citizens."

And that is 100 less jobs.  So that money can go to the government to one more overpaid bureaucrat.  Because the government knows better than those people. You did know, didn't you, that the number of highly paid government officials has skyrocketed in the last four years? That the ratio of people on the payrolls of government has skyrocketed in comparison to the PRIVATE sector?  You know...that sector where people are responsible for themselves? Taxes that go into government sectors that have no production, no growth, just dead end money holes.

How about....

If the rich people spent MORE lavishly with new houses, boats, cars, paying local sales taxes and creating thousands of new jobs to pay  people with an income that will pay taxes as well?  Creating dynamic growth, fueling increased tax collections.

You understand economics, so that should be pretty evident.

But then they have and we have-not, and that isn't fair because the poor people feel bad. 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 29, 2011, 12:37:52 pm
Really scads?  I think we've already got enough cars in the world don't yo?.  We certainly have enough EMPTY houses.

Sorry but I assume nothing Kathyp.  For such a self-proclaimed student of history you've clearly missed the mark .  My opinions are mostly based on personal experience, not someone elses.  Maybe I can suggest some alternative reading?  They won't be on any JBS 'approved' list though :-D

You obviously know very little about what OWS is about and even seem to deny there are former tea party members within their ranks.  Who do you work for :? :-D  

For the record, the so-called 'tea party' has never camped out on the concrete or even held a rally much longer than a day that I'm aware of, yet they somehow attracted people like Dick Army, the KOCK brothers, and a handful of other 'rich' families.  That doesn't make anyone just a little suspicious?  

The fact is, the Tea Party is loosing people while OWS has been gaining numbers. Turns out OWS is the movement some tea partiers thought they were joining when they joined w/ the Tea Party.  I've personally talked with several former TP folks who felt disenfranchised by all the $$$ influencing TP policy and agendas.

Some imply OWS has no focus.  Hello?  They're called Occupy Wall-Street!  There's a clue.  For now, protest is enough and its diversity is actually a strength not a sign of weakness.  If some care to  remember their American history, it took years to develop our own Constitution, evolving from an amorphous and disjointed movement from the very beginning.  All they really wanted at the beginning was to be treated better by King George.  Hmmm.  

Some also imply they are making a mess where ever they are.  Anne Coulter called them a "flea Party" as if she actually knows anything at all about it :roll:.  Well democracy is messy (and clean ups create jobs :-D.  If some of you actually participated more you'd know that there is an ample amount of self-policing going on at OWS sites, but go ahead, believe what you are told to believe, its easier.

These fellow American citizens, who're only practicing and participating in democracy through 'direct action' are as patriotic as any service member (in fact many occupiers are brother and sister veterans from WWII to Afghanistan/ Iraq).

This OWS movement is not about left-right ideologies as the media (and their owners) would have you believe, but is about top down reality.  

Its primary focus is pointed directly at the narcissistic greed of today's financial and corporate elites who've turned their backs on Americas's majority and purchased our government wholesale through corporations now masquerading as "people."  Some folks spell justice "J-U-S-T-U-S"  Guess who?

If that's what we as Americans really want (and many here seem to want just that), well its what we've already got, no use in debating any longer, the corporatist/plutocrats/conservatives have already won and there seem to be plenty who are willing to continue doing their bidding for them as exampled repeatedly within this thread :'(.  We may as well just go on home.  

You know, some people believe that slavery never really ended in this Country, just a change in the delivery system. Example; The slave owners no longer have to house and feed (care for) the slaves anymore.  However, they (the well-off) are still very dependant on us providing them with more slaves though :roll:  Make more slaves :lau:

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 29, 2011, 12:56:53 pm
Most of the cars in the world are not driven by the 1%.  And when they use the car for a year and sell it, somebody in the 99% benefits.  And the empty house are not unoccupied by the 1%.  And those houses that those people couldn't afford and lost through foreclosure (and probably didn't lose any money on)?  They're purchased by those who can afford them (from the banks at a huge loss) and rented back to the people so they have housing.

I can tell you that around here, when the housing bubble popped, a lot of people were still employed on some huge houses that take years to build.  Helped a LOT of people out.  Now that it is reaching the bottom, those huge houses aren't being built anymore, since the rich ARE feeling what everybody else does.

Now those rich are putting it back into the business, and THAT is helping people out.

Yeah...let's stop that from happening by intercepting more of that money and giving it to the government.

OWS - If there was one or two ideas - reform the fed, reform the mortgage system (starting with fannie mae), stop some of the corruption - then yes, there is a lot of common ground there.  But it doesn't stop there.  It goes on - soak the rich!  Pay for our college! Free love!  The only people who can stay there are the ones without any responsibilities in life.  Rabble gathers.  Parks are trashed.  People are raped and murdered.

Teaparty?  People with responsibilities, families.  You are right - sure can't be camping out, especially when they are actually paying for all the services used.

Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 29, 2011, 01:54:53 pm
Yeah, the road less traveled is always filled with unknown pitfalls, but the fact is most the planet's people think Americans are the 1% and no, the reality is that most of them 'don't' own cars, much less homes, but they all want them :). And they all deserve them, no offense intended but the worlds big enough.  We need to decide whether we are also big enough is all.

Scads You bring up an important, if seldom acknowledged point of the economic crash that we're still paying for (while the rich continue to benefit using their twisted version of Smith's capitalism;

'If I make money it mine, if I loose money its yours.').  How long are the rest of us suppose to just accept that?

As Scads said, while the housing BOOM was going it was great, wasn't it?  Locally, the four little (100-200 acre) lakes closest to me in Northwest Wisconsin went from being almost empty of any development to an average of 45 homes (over half are now empty and/or for sale).  Everyone around here had work, the locals had more competition than ever.  That competition has all since moved away now and the locals are back to 'repair/remodel' jobs if lucky and most of those homes sit vacant.  Boom or Bust, the rich always do well.

Money flowed all around while many clearly felt a noose tightening around their necks as fast as housing prices were increasing.  Some people got seriously rich.  I started hearing about the possibility of this current mess in the early 90's (had one of those cushy Government jobs some of you complain about, riiighttttt :?) 

There were plenty of smart people out there sounding the alarm for those listening, but....why pay attention to all that when there's "all that money."  Man, we can't just stop being stupid can we?  We have to get that money while we can, right?  Therin lies one of capitalisms great myths, the myth that we all can be rich if we just leave the already rich alone.  But the fact is, whether we regular citizens do well or not makes little difference to those with plenty.  The game is rigged, they're the house man, they NEVER loose.

Need I say more?  Man, I hope not cuz this is exhausting and I've got CongressPersons and Senators AND Presidents who are anxiously waiting for my letters and phone calls ;).

This topic could continue for days w/out any serious discussion, debate or allowance for challenging others thoughts or opinions, nothing more is possible it seems.  It always seems to digress.

I must have a hole in my head for even getting started here.  Unfortunately, This what happens as it first gets cold and I'm bored and not yet acclimated.  Time to go do something :).

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2011, 02:25:06 pm
True words of wisdom coming from Wisconsin.  X:X X:X X:X

If the rich people spent MORE lavishly with new houses, boats, cars, paying local sales taxes and creating thousands of new jobs to pay people with an income that will pay taxes as well?  Creating dynamic growth, fueling increased tax collections.

You understand economics, so that should be pretty evident.
LOL.  We know what Voodoo economics is when we see it.  Bush Jr pretty much proved Bush Sr was RIGHT when it comes to economics!
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 29, 2011, 02:53:16 pm
True words of wisdom coming from Wisconsin.  X:X X:X X:X

Exactly right!   X:X X:X X:X
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 29, 2011, 03:32:15 pm
Quote
Boom or Bust, the rich always do well.

yes they do and it's a good thing, too.

lets take the case of my friend who just bought a vacation home. 

the house had been empty, so the neighborhood home values were improved with the sale.
on the sale, the Realtor made money.
the house needed work, so she hired a contractor.
the house needed updating, so she hired a decorator.
she's not there all the time, so she hired a gardener.
the house is in an HOA, so fees are paid to them to hire maintenance people.
fees are paid to a security company.
she pays property taxes, but has no children in the school system.
she bought furniture for the house.
when she's there, she shops in the local economy, and uses the restaurants.

do you think that it would have been better to have given the money to the government?  would they have made better choices with it? 

those of you who want the rich to pay higher taxes....to what end?  what exactly has the government done well with what it has, that makes you think they would do well with more?

the government does not lack revenue.  it lacks common sense. 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: FRAMEshift on November 29, 2011, 03:49:27 pm
Kathy, we all have our opinions.  You are entitled to yours.  But you are NOT entitled to your own facts.   So I'm wondering why you have not yet retracted your claim that GM and Chrysler did not declare bankruptcy.    If you can't stick to the facts, some may also doubt your opinions.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 29, 2011, 04:11:09 pm
unwad your skivvies.  i didn't answer because i was in a hurry and missed your post.  sorry.

you were right.  i was wrong.  ;)
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Scadsobees on November 29, 2011, 04:27:34 pm
What game is rigged?  You keep rambling about the rich giving more, and sticking it to 150,000 to make everything better.  Those 150,000 multimillionaires would be swallowed by our national debt without any real difference.  Most of those outspoken million or billionaires started out with nothing and built what they have with hard work and ingenuity. And they've helped out far more than they've taken advantage of.  In fact, most of them have their own foundations that they start and contribute to for charity reasons, they contribute and build hospitals, universities, museums, charities up the wazoo, whatever they think would be a good charity and use their money the best.  But the government knows better, right?

Yes, our problems now are from greed.  But we are ALL greedy.  I'm greedy.  You're greedy. Greedy for things, greedy for power, greedy for money, greedy for etc. There are greedy poor people, greedy rich people, and greedy 99%ers.  We think the world will be better if we get what those others have.  The booms were created by people who wanted to be rich.  And by people who wanted things they couldn't afford.  And plenty of rich people and poor people alike suffered.

But transferring that greed from a thousand points of power to one giant point of power is a recipe for...well...the USSR.  Socialism is just as greedy as capitalism, since it both involves people.  It just looks different.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: sterling on November 29, 2011, 04:49:32 pm
Kathy, we all have our opinions.  You are entitled to yours.  But you are NOT entitled to your own facts.   So I'm wondering why you have not yet retracted your claim that GM and Chrysler did not declare bankruptcy.    If you can't stick to the facts, some may also doubt your opinions.
After declaring bankruptcy did they follow the normal bankruptcy procedures? Things like a bankruptcy court being involved where they reorganize or did our gov. step in and change things. Things like firing the CEO and giving the unions alot of the stocks that belong to the stockholders seems like Gov. gave some of one company to a foreign auto company.. Just wondering how it all came down.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: T Beek on November 29, 2011, 05:43:40 pm
What game is rigged?  You keep rambling about the rich giving more, and sticking it to 150,000 to make everything better.  Those 150,000 multimillionaires would be swallowed by our national debt without any real difference.  Most of those outspoken million or billionaires started out with nothing and built what they have with hard work and ingenuity. And they've helped out far more than they've taken advantage of.  In fact, most of them have their own foundations that they start and contribute to for charity reasons, they contribute and build hospitals, universities, museums, charities up the wazoo, whatever they think would be a good charity and use their money the best.  But the government knows better, right?

Yes, our problems now are from greed.  But we are ALL greedy.  I'm greedy.  You're greedy. Greedy for things, greedy for power, greedy for money, greedy for etc. There are greedy poor people, greedy rich people, and greedy 99%ers.  We think the world will be better if we get what those others have.  The booms were created by people who wanted to be rich.  And by people who wanted things they couldn't afford.  And plenty of rich people and poor people alike suffered.

But transferring that greed from a thousand points of power to one giant point of power is a recipe for...well...the USSR.  Socialism is just as greedy as capitalism, since it both involves people.  It just looks different.

Please don't include me with your greedy friends. You don't know me.  Assumptions are part the problem for too many out there, besides if you knew me you wouldn't assume anything ;).

The fact is the great MAJORITY of the rich in the world were born that way, another fact twister is not what is needed scads, please put brain in gear before typing :-D. 

Another fact so many choose to ignore (doesn't quite fit the JBS mantra);

"No country can have success without equal portions of capitalism and socialism, only with both working together is a Democracy even possible."  -Mr. T

Now please just chew on that for a little bit before providing the patt knee-jerk response. 

Time to change the channel :-*.

Enough of this already.  I can accept who and what you work for if you can.

thomas
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: iddee on November 29, 2011, 06:52:28 pm
""Please don't include me with your greedy friends. You don't know me.  Assumptions are part the problem for too many out there, besides if you knew me you wouldn't assume anything.""

Since the statement is posted on the forum, I assume it means everyone.
Then if no one knows you, I assume you are very hard to get to know.
Which I assume, means you are not very friendly, or it would be easier to get to know you.
Most unfriendly people I know are also greedy. Otherwise, they would be more sociable and easier to get to know.
See, I can assume lots of things.  :-D :-D

""The fact is the great MAJORITY of the rich in the world were born that way, another fact twister is not what is needed scads, please put brain in gear before typing grin.""

You say his statement is wrong, but you show no proof that yours is correct. Let's see your references.

I, too, believe there are more millionaires self-made then born.

 

 
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 29, 2011, 07:10:11 pm
Quote
I, too, believe there are more millionaires self-made then born.

there are a huge number in the old USSR and they have been created in the last 30  years.  the majority of millionaires in this country are either small business owners, or retired....but a million isn't what it used to be and being worth a million doesn't mean you have a million in cash sitting around.

the problem with the calculations is that there are a very few, very rich.  the Gates, Jobs, etc. have great wealth, but they are a small % of the population.  even so, they make the so called wealth gap look huge.  if you were being a good teacher and threw out those top and bottom people, the middle doesn't have such gaps. 

i have no idea why this wealth gap thing makes people crazy.  what someone else has, has nothing to do with what i have. 

so i still ask:  if the government raises taxes on the "rich", what do you want them to do with it?  how do you think it will make things better?  or, is it not about better, but about "fair"?
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: beee farmer on November 29, 2011, 11:01:37 pm
isn't it amusing that the same people who are supporting occupy and singing their praises, condemn the tea party.  one group has managed to destroy property, attract and engage in crime, rape women, interfere with commerce, cost cities millions, and generally stink up the place.  the other group has done just what has been suggested here; get involved and make demonstrable changes in the system

what's the difference?  liberals are attracted to an emotional message even when the message is unintelligible.  those folks may be confused, but THEY CARE, and caring is EVERYTHING!  besides, the libs in power don't really want an organized and successful move for change.  they want a group that they can use, but not a group that can force them to do anything.

so here is the thing:  when you go to town and can't get to the business that you want because of  OWS folks,  remember THEY CARE.  can't use the park because they trashed it, not to worry, THEY CARE,  police run out of money because they spent it on overtime at OWS protests?  it's ok.  the OWS people....THEY CARE.

put that in your head and it will be easier to deal with them.....until spring when they are reconstituted by the unions/communists and engage in the violence that we all know is coming......because THEY CARE.
Kathy.... very well put!!!!!   Bravo!  Might want to review your views were agreeing  :jawdrop:
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: kathyp on November 30, 2011, 12:02:11 am
Quote
Kathy.... very well put!!!!!   Bravo!  Might want to review your views were agreeing   
 
 


hell froze over a couple of weeks ago, and with your post, i think we have entered a new ice age!!  :cheer:
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: luvin honey on December 01, 2011, 09:57:08 pm
TBeek,
I don't see anything wrong in your post. It is truly the electorate that has happened to our country.
 But a lot of this also falls back on the education system.The last thing they seem to teach anymore is American History.
By 5th grade, my kids will have had state and national history. We'll see if it gets repeated in the upper grades.
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: Poppi on December 03, 2011, 04:43:22 pm
Ain't it kewl just how far this topic has strayed from the original issue about GE moving it's x-ray division to China...  LOL!!  Who's steering this ship anyway??  :)
Title: Re: FOR ALL THE IDIOTS WHO ADORE OUR WORTHLESS LEADER..
Post by: beee farmer on December 04, 2011, 11:13:48 pm
Quote
Kathy.... very well put!!!!!   Bravo!  Might want to review your views were agreeing  
 
 


hell froze over a couple of weeks ago, and with your post, i think we have entered a new ice age!!  :cheer:
:flyingpig:    :pinkelephant:

LOL