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ALMOST BEEKEEPING - RELATED TOPICS => FARMING & COUNTRY LIFE => Topic started by: Bee Happy on December 15, 2010, 04:20:44 pm

Title: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Bee Happy on December 15, 2010, 04:20:44 pm
Acebird and I recently discussed this in another thread, I figured I'd better move it over.
http://www.ufo-blogger.com/2010/08/us-senate-bill-s510-allows-raiding-your.html (http://www.ufo-blogger.com/2010/08/us-senate-bill-s510-allows-raiding-your.html) - this is the article acebird posted, but I've seen mention of it when I searched.
The story is  that the government basically (has/is?) taking over complete control of market and home supplemental gardening - through the restriction of possesion and collection of seeds (qualified under the bill as "food")  - seeds would be illegal to posess by even other interpretations I've read - I really hate reading bills because they tuck the backstabbings in with pages and pages of stuff I can only describe as the cure for insomnia.
I can't establish whether the bill is final passed along with all the other revenges for being voted out, it's through the senate but I couldn't say whether it's signed.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 15, 2010, 05:41:01 pm
there is a problem with the bill.  it has a tax in it and all taxes must originate in the house.

i have read the bill, not that it matters.  if you don't track through every reference, you don't get the whole story.

here is what i got from it and what i have been able to put together from those who did a more in depth study.

if the bill were strictly applied as the version i read was written, it could give the government control to inspect, regulate, and potentially tax, all produce and meat production for all except home use.  if you, for instance, raise, slaughter, and process your own cow, you would probably be ok.  if, however, you do as i have done and have someone outside process that same animal, it would fall under these new regulations.

if you sell or even give away food from your garden, you could fall under these regulations.  it could impact everything from soup kitchens to food banks, and certainly our backyard honey sales. 
for any food production, you could be required to have an approved commercial kitchen and be subject to inspection without notice and licensing fees.
even the Sunday church potluck could be impacted.


now, i understand that there have been revisions and exceptions added.  the problem is, that once they do something like this, they tend to add and expand eternally.  re: "consumer protection" acts, etc.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: AllenF on December 15, 2010, 09:22:03 pm
Sounds like the gov wants their fingers in every bodies back yards.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Bee Happy on December 15, 2010, 09:49:44 pm
If it follows the pattern of communist takeovers elsewhere - there is a provision to confiscate the property, since commie governments had an abiding love for taking away "agricultural land" including small farms and herding people into the cities.  - I hate to sound paranoid, but why is congress in such a mad rush to pass their agenda before the new congress takes over - musta been stuff they thought was critical.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: AllenF on December 15, 2010, 10:09:23 pm
Critical? Like a big old huge spending bill before they have to look for a job?
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Scadsobees on December 15, 2010, 11:45:16 pm
Sounds like the gov wants their fingers in every bodies back yards.

Been to the airport recently?  They already got their fingers in everybody's back ends!!!

 :-D
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 16, 2010, 12:44:25 am
 :-D
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: AllenF on December 16, 2010, 07:57:59 am
 :lau:
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: b reeves on December 18, 2010, 09:53:55 am
 :lau: :lau: :lau:
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 19, 2010, 03:24:49 pm
I guess I am not seeing what is so funny.  Communism, it is not communism, it is big corporate take over of the small guy who poses a major threat to their lucrative control of our government.  To bad we couldn’t have our own wiki leaks publishing the corporate meeting minutes of these scoundrels.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2010, 04:32:12 pm
here is my problem with the big corporation argument.  it is a distraction from what the government is really doing.  the very people (far left) who constantly preach the evil of corporate America, get into bed with them to write this kind of legislation.  yes, corporations will be complicit and even encouraging of this, if they think something is in it for them.  insurance and the health care law are a good example.  however, the goal is not to protect us from the evil corporation or even to control the evil corporation.  the goal is to give more power to the government.  the government can then do whatever it wants with both the corporation and the people. 

when you are distracted by things like the Monsanto argument, you miss what is really happening.  with this bill, the government eventually controls all of your food sources.  if Monsanto were to cease to exist, the government would still control your food sources.  the same kind of argument was made about health care.  evil insurance companies....but if the bill destroys private insurance, the health care bill still exists and is written so that government can easily step up and control every aspect of your health care.

evil corporations are an argument of the left, but the left is the first to  make deals with evil corporations for the sake of dictatorial legislation.  the real problem is with the ideology of the left which believes that government should be everything to the people.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: G3farms on December 19, 2010, 05:08:53 pm
I will give up my hoe when they pry it from my dead cold fingers.

 :jerry: :cindi: :cindi: :jerry:
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: lenape13 on December 19, 2010, 05:26:27 pm
My bees are busy training and honing their ninja skills during the winter months.  The plan is to expand the role of the guard bees to include the entire property.    :-D

Seriously though, it's just another grab at power and control.  The population needs to extricate themselves from the grip of Morpheus and turn their attentions to what the feds are attempting, no DOING, to this country and its citizenry.  I just want to roam the streets, shaking people and extolling them to take an active hand in their duties to keep the elected in line. :-x
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 19, 2010, 05:40:02 pm
I don't know how to say it Kathy except that you are all wet.  The left has done nothing different than the right and for that matter the middle too.  Money is power and power dictates.  All elected officials get there endorsement by money.  Money that has to be paid back.  If you blame it solely on the right or the left or the tea party or what ever political flair you prefer you are the problem because you are all wet.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2010, 05:54:19 pm
Guess being all wet is a step up from bully and bigot?   :-) 
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Bee Happy on December 19, 2010, 05:57:37 pm
Actually I think the tea party has a lot of legitimate complaints - one of them being that there is little difference (In outcome) between Republicans and Democrats. Another being that our representatives are not governing in the interest of the people anymore. And you wonder why the comedians and news outlets are having such a great time bashing the "teabaggers"?  Because it's easy - the tea party represents discontent with the status quo, and neither major party is prepared to let that slide.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2010, 06:02:15 pm
Quite a few dems and independents in tea party.
dissatisfaction has no party.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 19, 2010, 08:17:57 pm
Quote
Quite a few dems and independents in tea party.
dissatisfaction has no party.

If we could only get to a no party system and be purely democratic.  I know I am not going to live long enough so it's do what you can with the life you have left.
This land and the people that inhabited it before the Europeans appeard were living utopia.  Tribal governments were all they needed.  I'll bet the bees and the rest of the garden of eden were better off too.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2010, 08:45:29 pm
utopia is a myth.  they were people and they  had the same issues that all people have.  they had the added stress of feeding, clothing, and survival in an often  harsh environment.  they had war.  they had death.  they no doubt had good and bad leaders.

we are where we are.  what do we do with it? 
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 19, 2010, 09:05:33 pm
Quote
they had the added stress of feeding, clothing, and survival in an often  harsh environment.  they had war.  they had death.


You think that is an added stress.  Your too well off but I already knew that.  I could tell from your responses.  What they had was a form of government that had the people and their survival in mind.  There wars and skirmishes were minimal until the Europeans showed up.

"they had the added stress of feeding, clothing, and survival in an often  harsh environment.  they had war.  they had death."  Now if you leave the politics out you would almost think you were talking about bees.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2010, 09:56:58 pm
interesting comment.  not sure what to make of it.  what makes you think i am well off?  if i were, would that be a problem for you?

here is a little exercise that we were instructed to do long ago.  don't feel bad if you can't finish it.  it should be done on a day when everyone is home.

turn off your main breaker and your main water valve.  you may fill buckets of water from an outside hose, but you must not use any indoor plumbing and you must not cook indoors.  you may use a barbecue.  you  may not use any heat in your house. you may only use candles for light. you may not go to the store for anything.  see how long your family can last.  the goal is to make it at least 24  hours, but few families can do it.

yes, i know that when the power goes out people last for days.  at least they usually can flush the toilet....unless, like me, they are on a well. that kind of sucks  and most of the time, weather permitting, you can go to the store or some warm place. hey, i am not even asking you to go kill your own food or dig your own veggies.  :-)

it's' not  about being well off...or not.  it's about the pesky thing called history.  we have enough of it to know how difficult life was back in the good old days.  that's not to say it was all bad, but would you really trade then for now? you would have tribal government in exchange for the life you  now enjoy?  most of life then was about survival.

what's wrong with working to make the life and government you have, better?

Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: lenape13 on December 19, 2010, 10:21:22 pm
As one of those original inhabitants, let me tell you a little story... it WAS NOT all rosy and pleasant.   Survival was often difficult, especially in the winter months.  Wars could be very prolonged and violent, depending on who the combatants were.  I trained in the old ways, and follow them still.  I can survive off the land if necessary, but it would not be fun, and in no way a paradise.  Just because you read a couple of books, written by whites, no doubt, does not make you an expert on native life.  And don't think the "government" was perfect either.  There were good leaders, and really bad ones.  We are human beings and subject to the same wants, desires, and temptations, then, just as now.  Yes, utopia is a myth.  It never existed, and I doubt it will ever become a reality.  Okay, I'll stop here before I REALLY start ranting..... :-D
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2010, 10:27:44 pm
Kathy, although I agree with you, your challenge would be easy for me. I lived my first 18 years without running water. We carried it all in buckets and tubs. We had one light socket in each room downstairs, no electrical upstairs. No receptacles anywhere in the house. We cooked on woodstoves and kerosene stoves. Heated with fireplaces and woodstoves. Never had a chainsaw or logsplitter. Only a crosscut saw and axes.

Today, we have a couple hundred jars of home canned food, portable heat, portable generators, candles, lanterns and camping stoves. We are prepared for a minimum 30 days without power or transportation. We are also on a well system.

It's the ones who consider a microwave and can opener as mandatory essentials that I pity if a problem should come along.

PS. And I don't need to government spoon to feed me.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: hardwood on December 19, 2010, 10:33:26 pm
lenape, I for one would love to hear some of your stories...maybe a new thread?

iddee, you and I just HAVE to get together some time, if WW3 ever comes it's people like you that I'd want watching my back!

AScott
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 19, 2010, 10:58:22 pm
we have been putting away a lot of dried food in addition to canned.  we also have stores of MRE's that we have saved from our various adventures.  i  happen to like them :-)
i have been thinking about putting a backup  hand pump on the well.  i'm not to concerned about the water as the well is shallow and pulling it out by bucket would be doable...although a PIA.

got some good ideas from One Second After.  most of the stuff for our own survival we have done or planned for.  some of the things that might go on with people around us, i had not really considered.  it's a good read and has some good thoughts on survival when it all goes to hedoublel.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2010, 11:18:38 pm
I have two farm tractors and two 15 KW PTO driven generators, one 30 KW PTO driven. I can run my well and a lot more. I keep 20 gallon of diesel and 10 gallon of gas on hand at all times. I also have three freezers full of veggies and venison. The generators will keep them going, too. That goes with over a thousand pounds of canned beef in my basement, which I paid a whopping 12 1/2 cent per pound for.

hardwood, I have a 12 X 60 mobile home not being used. It has water, electric, refer, stove, heat, ETC. It's yours when you get here. Just ask JP. He used it last week.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: G3farms on December 19, 2010, 11:32:09 pm
Would not takemuch to survive here either. have plenty of canned food, kerosene heaters with several 5 gallon cans of kerosene, fire wood, fireplaces, city water and a well, generators and gas to run them, cattle, deer, squirrels, rabbits and turkey in the field, veggies in the garden, canoe and plenty of fishing gear with a lake 1/4 mile away, fair stash of meds and first aid stuff, tools and a bunch of junk to cobble just about anything together, guns ammo and an attitude to defend family and property.

Don't mean to come off sounding like a know it all or anything but could last a day or two.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 19, 2010, 11:39:05 pm
You don't sound like a know it all, just a common old country boy. As Hank Jr. said, A country boy can survive.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2010, 12:44:46 am
Maybe a country girl also? :-)
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 20, 2010, 12:46:00 am
Likely better than a country boy could.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Bee Happy on December 20, 2010, 02:04:13 am
I've done sort of hardcore survival camping - where you spend a weekend with a 22, a fishing pole, and a half gallon  of water per day (I'm horrible at coming up with "wild salad") but the weekend goal was simple: if no one caught or shot dinner - no one ate. We did allow ourselves a campfire though. and missed a couple meals but not really a big deal in the scheme of things.
Hardcore survival is the two weeks of snare, forage, or starve, - not the officer's club version. Can't say I've had that delight.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 20, 2010, 09:19:59 am
 
Quote
most of life then was about survival.


This is how I know because life hasn't changed much for those that are not well off.

Are you a history teacher?  Can you site one instance where the human race learned from there past mistakes?
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Scadsobees on December 20, 2010, 01:41:04 pm
If this conversation, big corporations versus communism and government is about America, then you need to redefine survival.

I think that the discussion has been about staying alive and providing food for today.

As bad as things are in America, as many people who may go hungry on occasion, there isn't starvation (hunger <> starvation).

Survival in america is usually about which bill to pay first, how to come up with money to buy the kids toys (they NEED to get presents!).

There are plenty who weren't well off in the past that are well off now (iddee in the house?), and there are lots who were well of a couple years ago that are doing poorly now?

Learning from past mistakes?  I'm guessing that there are a lot of people right now who are going to choose NOT to buy a house that they can't afford again.

Thomas Edison worked through hundreds of past mistakes before he came up with the light bulb.  Ford worked through lots of mistakes before he got his first car running.

The human race lessons learned?  Good point, we have a bright vivid lesson right over there on the other side of our hemisphere, but for some reason people seem blind to it and insist on racing back to it.  Russia, France, Greece, yeah, that's what we want here!
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 20, 2010, 01:51:26 pm
What is well off?
Would 75,000 a year make you well off?

Ask the guy who just jumped from 18,000 to 75,000 annually. then ask the guy who just dropped from 600,000 to 75,000 annually. You may get two entirely different answers.

Most people who live within their means are well off. Those that don't, are not doing so well.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: lenape13 on December 20, 2010, 02:17:52 pm
Pam and I pay cash for everything.  If we don't have the money, we don't need it.  I do most of our vehicle and equipment repairs and build most everything we need around our little homestead.  I salvage wood and other items to make what we need.  There is no way we could afford to do otherwise.  This year's projects include a root cellar, a greenhouse, and an outdoor oven.  I do odd jobs for extra cash, which we use to purchase "luxury items".  We are fortunate enough to live in a neighborhood in which people still help one another, so bigger projects are made easier with many hands.  (We will all be gardening again this year, and no doubt sharing our harvests, so perhaps we'll all be in jail as eco-terrorists.)  We gave up our satellite tv years ago, along with our land line.  We have basic cell phones with talk only plans and an internet connection to keep in touch with distant family and friends.  I have even been known to write letters.  People need to realize that you don't need all the new fancy gizmos to survive or be happy.  You can live quite well and more stress-free without them.  Why do people "need" big fancy homes they can't afford.  All you really need is a warm, comfortable place to relax and spend time with the ones you love.  Family, not possessions, is what it is all about.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2010, 02:59:17 pm
i  have seen poverty around the world.   i have been/lived in some of the most backward places in the US.  we do not have poverty in the US that in any way compares to what the world has.  we don't have disease, starvation, or lack of housing as they do in other countries.

and why do we feel that poverty is a bad thing?  when we were young and starting out, we had nothing.  it was a struggle to pay bills, put food on the table, and clothes on our back. the heat was down, or off.  we dressed out of goodwill and ate out of the dented can store and kept a garden.  we did not have food stamps, heating assistance, or free health care.

 we knew we didn't want to stay where we were.  we both worked two or three jobs at a time so that we could get the education and skills we needed for a better life.  poverty was a great motivator to improve our lives.  no one was going to do it for us.

my renters, on the other hand, have help for everything.  yes, they work, but they do not work toward improvement.  what is their motivation?  almost everything in their lives is free or subsidized. with the money they make, they have satellite TV, high speed internet, and i see the pizza boxes in the trash. did you know you can buy take and bake pizza with food stamps?  their medical and dental is covered by the Oregon health plan.     and the guy smokes.  and they are always late with the rent.

they are very nice people with no future.  do you think they might make better choices if they didn't have my tax dollars to depend on?  i do.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 20, 2010, 03:08:33 pm
Well off is when you have an income that will sustain your way of life with no concern of ever loosing it.  Well off is being so arrogant that you can point the finger at someone else for being in an unfortunate situation and thinking it is their fault for being there.

This isn't the case for me.  I hated the idea of making bankers rich off from my sweat.  But most people truly believed that if a bank would lend them money then they could afford to borrow it.  After all the banks are the experts in finance, right?  Did they get hurt? no way, they had an in to our government so they got bailed out.  Too big to fail, what nonsense.  Don't you think it is amazing they can predict what would happen if they failed but couldn't predict what would happen if they didn't.

So now we have agriculture that is too big to fail.  Each year fertile soil is depleted by the Monsanto's of the world who are also too big to fail.  They are not concerned about wiping out bees because in their minds they will have a chemical solution to improve their bottom line.  People are finally waking up to what is happening to our food source.  The picture is becoming clear that humans were meant to eat real food that comes from real dirt.  Those that do see drastic improvements in health so they want more of this good food.  Whoa! If the Monsanto's of the world are going to survive they need to make this practice illegal.  And that is what is happening right now.









Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2010, 03:27:09 pm
gee, i don't know.....do you think i should feel bad about pointing out stupid spending when it's my money they are spending?  i don't.  if they were spending their own money, i would not care what they do with it. oh...forgot....they keep the house so hot that they kids run around in shorts.  but hey, they aren't paying for it, so it's all good.....


should i feel bad about  having worked to achieve a comfortable way of life?  i don't.  in fact, having done it, i believe that anyone can do the same if they want to.  poverty is only a static condition if you wish it to be.  i know that if we lost everything that we own today, we could do it again.

you  more or less made my earlier point.  government stepping in to fix real and imagined problems, and in the process taking more power and our freedom.  the excuse for doing it is less important than the result.  the fact that people buy the excuse, points to the poor education and attention of the public.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 20, 2010, 03:39:34 pm
Man alive Kathy, your getting wetter by the minute.  There is poverty, disease, and starvation everyware in the world even in this country.  I am afraid there will be much larger numbers in the near future.

You know you could double your rent and only rent to the well off and then you wouldn't have to be reminded of those lazy people getting subsidies.  My gut feeling is if they knew how to make their lives better for themeselves they would.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2010, 04:02:03 pm
depends on how you define poverty, i guess.  find me a starving person in this country.  i  have never seen one. do people skip meals?  yes. do some even go hungry from time to time? yes.  neither of those are the definition  of starvation.   disease?  sure, but not easily preventable disease that is common in other countries.  no bloated bellies, or little kids with flies crawling out of their noses.  no one dies of cholera on the dirt floor of a mud hut.

anyone who could pay double the rent would own, not rent.  these are not impaired people.  in fact, i'd guess that they are both above average in intelligence.  they are nice folks.  they keep the place up.  on that i have no complaints.  my gut feeling is that they'd figure out how to make their lives better if they didn't have the government holding their hand.  they surely would turn the heat down.  what is their motivation to make good choices?  there are not consequences for their bad choices.

unlike other countries, lifetime poverty in this country is about choices.  that's not to say that we won't have bad times.  most of us do.  we also have opportunity to fix things,  to do things differently so that we do not stay in a state of poverty.   
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 20, 2010, 04:11:27 pm
There is no one blinder than those who refuse to see.

No one is going to know how to better themselves if they have everything they are aware of now, and have no idea what having the better things are.

Those who have all the material things they want handed them will never have the satisfaction of self improvement, self accomplishment, pride in their work, ETC. Things lost the the hand fed forever.

And no, the 400 lb. woman with her 6 200 lb. preteens are not starving, I don't care if they haven't eaten today because the microwave oven broke.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Scadsobees on December 20, 2010, 04:14:29 pm
Well off is when you have an income that will sustain your way of life with no concern of ever loosing it.  Well off is being so arrogant that you can point the finger at someone else for being in an unfortunate situation and thinking it is their fault for being there.

Arrogance is looking at people and assume that they don't have the basic ability to better themselves.

Everybody here would give a person a fish.  But only if that person was willing to learn HOW TO fish.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 20, 2010, 04:48:48 pm
http://feedingamerica.org/faces-of-hunger/real-stories.aspx (http://feedingamerica.org/faces-of-hunger/real-stories.aspx)

It is not hard to find especially in these times.

That opportunity of making it out of poverty from nothing with no assistance today is considerably less than it was back then.  Your making an assumption because you know you would never have to prove it.  Your well off.

Tell us now, howd you get there?  There might be some misfortunate people that would like to hear your secrete.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2010, 05:31:11 pm
define well off.  the person who makes 300,000 dollars and is in debt, is not better off than i.  they probably have  more stuff, but that is not my definition of well off.

there is no secret.  it is done as Michael describes it.  you live within your means.  no stuff you do not need.  no debt.  every single penny that you can save, you save.  you make a distinction between wants and needs.  then you figure out how to meet your needs at the lowest possible cost.  turn the heat down.  turn the lights off.  walk to the store. take the bus to work.  buy food from the discount stores.  grow your own if you have space. eat a lot of PBJ and chicken soup.
be willing to make changes.  we left active duty military so that my husband could get his degree.  we went from an income that at least put food on the table, to an income of 0.  we had to move, so we had no home and support. we also had two kids.  it was a bit of a leap of faith :-).  by the time he was done with school, we had massive student loan debt.  it was the only debt other than a house that we have ever had.  we agreed to put most of his early salary toward it so that it could be paid off quickly.   

it's not harder to do now.  it is the same in any time.  i am not that old  :evil: 

you seem to think there is some magic "well off" number.  i can honestly say that even when we were at our poorest, i did not feel uncomfortable.  i knew that everything we were doing was toward a better life and it would pay off. 
you are correct, though.  i will never have to prove it because i have already proved it can be done.  if i had to do it again, i could.

it's about choices.  if you don't think you can do it, you can't.  if you think you need help to do it, you won't.

the first step might be figuring out what you think you need to be comfortable.  if you are uncomfortable where you are, maybe that needs to  be fixed first. 

Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 20, 2010, 05:32:57 pm
BTW, look at the picture on the site you just linked.  a little hunger is not always a bad thing.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 20, 2010, 07:17:05 pm
WOW, what a link to "prove" your point. 3 females and 1 male, easily grossing over a half ton. REAL STARVATION. Thanks for joining our side and proving it for us.

>>>>Tell us now, howd you get there? <<<<

By one simple rule. Learning the difference in "want" and "need", then telling myself "NO". I don't take weekend jaunts to the beach when my bills are past due.

My business partner and I made the exact same amount for 20 years. Even split all the way. We both had 2 kids about the same age.

Today I am retired with a comfortable life, he is broke, I will be leaving my kids with a nice size inheritance. He will be leaving his kids with funeral expenses and other debt.  WHHHHHHYYYYYY?????
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: hardwood on December 20, 2010, 07:28:49 pm
I have to take weekend jaunts to the beach when my bills are due...that's where 90% of my work is!

Scott
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 20, 2010, 07:34:35 pm
WOW, Hardwood, I bet a job like that just makes you pull your hair out.....

 :evil: :evil: :evil: :lau: :lau: :lau:
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: hardwood on December 20, 2010, 07:36:20 pm
 :lau:

Let's just say that for some of us EVERY day is a bad hair day :-D

Scott
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: AllenF on December 20, 2010, 10:16:12 pm
 :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: hardwood on December 21, 2010, 12:58:33 am
Does the government hand out cash to the folically deprived?

Scott
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 21, 2010, 11:48:12 am
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I have two farm tractors and two 15 KW PTO driven generators, one 30 KW PTO driven.


Neat toys for someone that has drawn a line between needs and wants. 

Hmmm, very judgmental this group.  Everyone that has suffered a misfortune must have deserved it.  Have I got that right?

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we left active duty military so that my husband could get his degree. we went from an income that at least put food on the table, to an income of 0. we had to move, so we had no home and support. we also had two kids. it was a bit of a leap of faith . by the time he was done with school, we had massive student loan debt. it was the only debt other than a house that we have ever had.

Interesting story Kathy.  How did you leave the military without getting government subsidies and entitlements?  Medical, education grants, living expenses?  Borrowed money with 0 income?  Wow, this is really starting to look like a crap shoot that paid off.  Not everybody that buys a lottery ticket wins.

May I remind you that there are less jobs being created then there are graduates coming out of school.  Those graduates will be competing for jobs with all the unfortunate unemployed (those that are collecting and those that are not) that are forced to take entry level jobs.  That means some of these graduates will be SOL with big student loans.  They lost the crap shoot.  That’s OK it’s there fault.  They must not have learned the difference between needs and wants.

The ones at the bottom of the social status milking the system don’t bother me half as much as the ones at the top.  Those at the top must really have their act together when it comes to “needs” and “wants“.

I apologize to the forum for going so far off topic.  I don’t ever see the little guy getting the better end of the deal when it conflicts with the interest of the big guy.  I hope we can at least stop the big guy from destroying our earth that we all share.

Yesterday I got married for the third time.  I left my nest eggs with the other two.  My new wife has shown me so much more about what is important about life.  So I can’t leave my kids a sizeable inheritance but I can do my best to give them a better earth.  All I can do is do what I do.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: iddee on December 21, 2010, 12:33:54 pm
Yes, wants can be had, but should come after needs. many folk get the order mixed up and go begging for their needs when the wants overwhelm their budgets.

For every one hard luck story that was non-preventable, there are a hundred preventable. Sure, you can find cases like you mention, but if they were the only ones out there, the local charities would have money left over and the government wouldn't need a welfare program.

Married for the third time? OK.
I will be celebrating my 43rd anniversary in march. Maybe attitude and compatibility with fellow humans have something to do with success, too.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 21, 2010, 01:35:56 pm
crap shoot paid off?  yes.  no crap shoot, no payoff.  it took a lot of time, and it took keeping the goal in mind.  i am neither a little guy nor a big guy.  i am an example of the American dream.  it's not a gift.  it's something you work toward. 

3 generations ago, my great grandmother came here at age 14. she had one suite case and was in search of family that she knew were here somewhere.  we suspect she lied about her age to be able too travel here alone :-)  she was a feisty lady up to her death at 101.  i knew her well.

her generation was poor.  her children did much better, but them came the depression and the war.  they lost everything and they started over.  the next generation, my parents, were ok. we were the last of our friends to get a TV.  it was very exciting, and i'm sure it was a sacrifice to buy it.  they were able to buy their home, and feed their children, but there was nothing left over.  they could not buy us cars or pay for a college education.  my generation has done better, but not because we had it given to us.  one of my brothers lived in his car for awhile.  now he makes a 6 figure income.  another of my brothers didn't get his degree until he was 40, but now he works for google and makes google money. 

it's all about choices.  bad things happen.  sometimes those bad things are not in our control.  how we deal with them is up to us.  if we sit around and whine about what others have, we will have nothing. 

you seem really focused on what others have.  if you continue to worry about the mean old rich, you will never be one. life is no harder than it ever was.  some of the hardships may be different, but i can tell you that it is far better right now than it was in the 70's and 80's.  it was better then, than during any of the depressions that have hit this country. 

you asked how people become successful.  we told you.  if you think that makes us judgmental about peoples choices, so be it.  bad choices will never lead to success.


Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Scadsobees on December 21, 2010, 03:53:29 pm

Tell us now, howd you get there?  There might be some misfortunate people that would like to hear your secrete.

I won't tell you what I secrete.  That's my business!!!   :-D

I agree with the others, I didn't see any starving people on the website.  THAT is why I made a distinction between starvation and hunger.  We may have a few hungry people here in America (and with all the dieting going on I'm sure we have lots!) but we don't have starving people here.

My secret? My parents working very hard and teaching me the value of hard work, and me using that learning to go to college (I paid for it) and getting a job.  I starting out washing dishes.

They valued Christian (private) education enough to make huge sacrifices.  That means more to me than any gift they could have given.  My parents being there for me and now me making sure I'm there for my kids.  I did have a wonderful childhood, but didn't have a lot of "stuff" compared to what kids nowadays have.

They gave me boundaries, they said "NO", they spanked when necessary.

That is the #1 way to give a kid a future.  Daycare, public (free) school, free lunches will give a kid NOTHING if that child doesn't have a parent or somebody who cares giving them a future.

And it all started with my great grampas coming over from the old country (Netherlands) with nothing and grubbing in the dirt and passing a little more of that future on to their kids.

When kids have problems, it isn't because of lack of money, it is because there is an ADULT doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on December 21, 2010, 04:23:34 pm
Everything Scads said.

 Im not THAT old-just 37 , however as a kid growing up my day started out bottle feeding 40-50 holstein dairy replacement heifers. Then I came home, ate breakfast, showered and got on a school bus at 7:15. I would have sworn then that my parents were slowly trying to kill me, but it taught me the essence of hard work. My dad has really never owed for anything. I can remember him paying the house off when I was very little and the 60 acres it sets on, he had paid for before he built the house. Too many people are trying to compete with the neighbors and live way beyond their means and I do not feel the tiniest bit sorry for them when it all comes crashing down. My wife used to make comments like how do they afford this or that and why cant we go get one until she realized that 99% of her friends were a cats hair from bankruptcy and eyeball deep in credit card debt. There is a ton of things that I would like to have i.e new truck, bigger house, and 100 hives, but what I have now is sufficient. My wife got to quizzing (being nosy) one of her friends when a shopping trip was being planned. Said friend is in 45,000 worth of credit card debt. The thought of it makes me nauseous. My dear old dad is the definition of a simple man and I love him dearly but he will never owe anyone for anything. He recently bought himself a new truck-the previous one he had driven for 15 years. He made one payment on it. Pulled out a check and paid for it on the spot. Is he wealthy by Forbes standards-absolutely not. He is just my definition of common sense. My dad is now 66- he married my mom when he was 18 and they are still together. Sorry...I'm rambling..what were we talking about small cell or something  :-D
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 21, 2010, 05:49:40 pm
this all brings up another point.  looks like most of us learned our work/success/survival lessons from our families.  what are the children of the welfare class learning?  do we wonder why welfare has become a lifestyle choice for so many?
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on December 21, 2010, 06:07:22 pm
Their parents have taught them that anything is available by a handout. Cable TV, food, housing, medical care, everything..Forge this paper and get this, falsify this malady and obtain that. I arrested a guy one time for 4th offense DUI-the arrest report asks for place of employment and his answer was that he was on disability. So after I had already had to beat the brakes off of him to get him in cuffs and nursed my broken nose back into position I was kinda curious as to what his disability might be. You guessed it, he was drawing a check for being an alcoholic. We as taxpayers were paying this guy to get drunk every freaking weekend.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: lenape13 on December 22, 2010, 08:22:48 am
this all brings up another point.  looks like most of us learned our work/success/survival lessons from our families.  what are the children of the welfare class learning?  do we wonder why welfare has become a lifestyle choice for so many?

I have family that milks the system.  They get public assistance, travel the circuit of churches looking for charity, and drive better vehicles than I drive (paid for by welfare, of course).  They laugh about it and say, "Why should we work?  They're paying us to stay home!"  People who make it a point to suckle at the public teat need to be put out in the wilderness and forgotten about.  They will either learn to take care of themselves or die off, a win-win situation for the rest of us.  Maybe a condition of living on welfare should be compulsary military service, in an actual combat zone.  Am I cruel and heartless?  I guess I am, but I was taught that if you want something, work for it.  If you are in serious need, that's what family is for.  It is NOT the government's job to take care of you.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: kathyp on December 22, 2010, 10:57:40 am
and all the people said?

 X:X
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Vibe on December 22, 2010, 12:50:41 pm
this all brings up another point.  looks like most of us learned our work/success/survival lessons from our families.  what are the children of the welfare class learning?  do we wonder why welfare has become a lifestyle choice for so many?
 Maybe a condition of living on welfare should be compulsary military service, in an actual combat zone.  Am I cruel and heartless?  I guess I am, but I was taught that if you want something, work for it.  If you are in serious need, that's what family is for.  It is NOT the government's job to take care of you.
a similar scenario has been put forth for a path to amnesty for illegal aliens.

Want something bad enough and it's amazing how hard one will WORK for it.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Scadsobees on December 22, 2010, 01:03:22 pm
this all brings up another point.  looks like most of us learned our work/success/survival lessons from our families.  what are the children of the welfare class learning?  do we wonder why welfare has become a lifestyle choice for so many?

I have family that milks the system.  They get public assistance, travel the circuit of churches looking for charity, and drive better vehicles than I drive (paid for by welfare, of course).  They laugh about it and say, "Why should we work?  They're paying us to stay home!"  People who make it a point to suckle at the public teat need to be put out in the wilderness and forgotten about.  They will either learn to take care of themselves or die off, a win-win situation for the rest of us.  Maybe a condition of living on welfare should be compulsary military service, in an actual combat zone.  Am I cruel and heartless?  I guess I am, but I was taught that if you want something, work for it.  If you are in serious need, that's what family is for.  It is NOT the government's job to take care of you.

Yeah, but do you know how HARD they need to work to milk the system that much?? :roll:
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 23, 2010, 10:14:05 pm
After spending 4 years overseas in service to Uncle Sam in such places as the Middle East, Far East,  and Southeast Asia, I returned to hear people sing the woes of the starving homeless.  When I pointed out that America's homeless was better off than much of the disadvantaged in foreign countries I was called heartless, cruel, and a liar.  But the fact remains true to this day, America's homeless are much better off than many of the poor people in 3rd world countries.
 
When my oldest daughter had the opportunity to spend a semester as an exchange student in Puebla, Mexico, I told her if she got the chance she should try to visit the people who live on the outskirts of the community.  One of her trips took her to the city dump where she observed and talked to entire families searching the garbage for bottles, metal, or anything that might be sold, traded, or bartered to get something to eat.  She was told that often the families she found searching the thrash heaps went 2-3 days at a time before finding enough materials to buy something to eat.  She also noticed that their homes were made of discarded junk.
Needless to say her eyes were opened once she overcame her shock and revultion.
Homes of discarded junk is the closest that the American homeless come to matching the poverty of the people in 2nd and 3rd world countries.  (I would classify Mexico as a 2nd world country)

I would venture to say, that if the world economy continues on it's present course (insurmountable deficit spending), most of the world middle and under class in 1st world countires will be forced backward into a mid 1800's type of life style.  Better have your shovels ready for digging both a well and a privy.  It will, however cure the obesity problem, hungry people who must spend all of their energy  obtaining their next meal won't have to being fat.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Vibe on December 24, 2010, 08:12:58 am
When I pointed out that America's homeless was better off than much of the disadvantaged in foreign countries I was called heartless, cruel, and a liar.  But the fact remains true to this day, America's homeless are much better off than many of the poor people in 3rd world countries.
Ain't it amazing how facts don't seem to care if people consider them cruel or not.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: don2 on December 25, 2010, 06:00:52 pm
Can't say much for some of the replies on the subject at hand.
As for making it during hard times here is a little bit of my life story.
Although "We" didn't see it as hard times.
 First of all I was born in Atlanta Ga. on Dec 5 1941. Of course we had electricity in the city.
Before my second birthday in 1942 we moved 60 miles east of Atlanta to a farm. No electricity. 
We had an electric wringer type washer, my farther removed the electric moter and it was replaced with a 2&1/2 horse Briggs&Straton gas engine.
It was another 6 years before REA made it to our area. We had a chest type ice box with the sliding lids on top and the ice man came around twice a week. we had a milk cow for milk, butter and butter milk,chickens for for eggs and drum sticks and the rest. Raised our own beef and pork. Wheat for flour and corn for corn meal and live stock feed. Picked out own cotton. cooked with wood stove and heated with a fire place.
My poor Mother didn't get her electric stove for a long-long time. Had to prop the oven door shut with a sawmill slat. She and a couple of the older sisters would help her can in the summer time, over 100 jars of food. I'm not talking half pints and pints, these were nothing smaller than quarts up to one gallon.
There were 5 boys and six girls and 9 are still living. we have lost 2 Brothers.
By the way, the battery for the radio lasted about 6 Months and was larger than the average car battery.

Some people have a house payment that is more than my total income. Now that is really living, till they have to give it up.
don2/aka doak :)
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: gunner7888 on December 26, 2010, 03:25:42 am
"They used to grow food in Kansas
Now they want to grow it on the moon and eat it raw
I can see the day coming when even your home garden
Is gonna be against the law."  Bob Dylan
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Acebird on December 26, 2010, 01:07:15 pm
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till they have to give it up.

I am reading a book right now and I never ever read books.  It is “The Dirty Life” by Kristin Kimball.  It is about a modern day experience of the author making a go of it in our harsh Upstate similar to the life you described (returning to the old ways).  Of coarse this life isn’t for everyone but I think you will see more of it returning.  We personally are certainly aiming in that direction.  I will say this, back then your biggest concern was how nature was going to treat you and what chances you would have if it didn’t treat you so well.

Today you certainly have all that to worry about but in addition you have fellow man (corporate interest) that are out to squelch you or potentially poison the land that you own.  New York State has now lost most of its industry except agriculture and farming.  It still has predominately fertile soil and a good water supply.  Modern agriculture practices are taking their tole on the rich soil that we have but the newer concepts (which are actually very old) do bring hope for the future.  And then there is Hydrofracture.  This has the potential of destroying thousands upon thousands of acres of good land, such a waste.  Nature can wipe out a crop in a single storm but doesn’t usually destroy the land.  Fellow man can destroy it for darn near eternity.

How dumb does the human race have to get before it realizes the damage it causes?  Welfare will never destroy a country or a continent because it can be turned on and off in an instant.  Corporate greed can easily destroy the world.  In this last economic down turn we have all seen the extent of its sward.

Don2 I guess I am a younen to you.  You are about my brother’s age and I was born in 1953.  The real farmer was your parent’s age.  Don’t you wish you could pick their brain?  It would make it a lot easier.
Title: Re: Gardening illegal?
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 30, 2010, 03:18:39 am
Don2

Yours sound a lot like my experience, I didn't know what inside plumbing was until 5 yrs old, grew up on a farm.  My Grandfather (1873-1957) taught me how to train horses and oxen to pull wagon etc.  I still raise my own chickens, turkeys, rabbits, and sheep for food plus orchard and garden.