Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: rayb on April 25, 2007, 02:28:39 am
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Can a whole box of 10 foundationless frames (with starter strips) be added as the colony needs more room, or do I mix foundationless frames between full sheets or between fully drawn comb ?
Thanks, Ray
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Its a good Idea to add a full sheet or drawn comb in, so the bees know in which direction to orient the rest of the comb. Otherwise, a real mess can result. A resent post by Tillie has some photos of this. :D
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=8583.0
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You save a lot money if you give foundations.
You need in one good hive 5 kg foundations which is equal 40 kg = 80 lb honey
Bees need 8 kg honey to make 1 kg comb wax.
10 langstroth foundations are equal 1 kg wax.
To draw 10 foundations to combs bees need about 1 kg wax more.
These calculations are pretty same as this reseach have got on field:
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
Bees like to draw drone combs without foundations. You may also see
how much natural amount of dronecombs (20%) affects on honey yield
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html
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It will cost you honey production, but you don't need to put drawn comp or foundation in for them, you also do not need foundation starter strips; wood works just as well. The comb is alot prettier if they do have something for a guide, but it is not necissary. I did have one cut out this year that took about three weeks to dawl comb in the right drection, but they got it after a while, then I went in and removed everything that was wrong....they are doing good now. I am working on going foundationless in all my brood boxes.
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I just started out this year and dumped my package of bees into an 8-frame medium box with 5 starter strip frames and 3 small-cell foundation frames. They were drawing the comb like gangbusters but got a bit off because they had built comb around the queen cage since it messed up their bee spacing between two frames.
I cut out the burr comb they had made, and a week later inspected, and they are drawing straight, lovely comb on the starter strips and small-cell foundation with a ton of capped worker brood. I just added another 8-frame medium since they have drawn 6 or 7 of the 8 frames on the bottom box. It has only one frame with small-cell foundation, and the other 7 frames are starter strips.
I am also feeding sugar water and they are drinking it at a rate of 2 gallons per week, using it I am sure to draw lots of comb.
Good luck!
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Thanks for the quick replies. I did not realize how much energy went in to making up the drawn comb ( and therefore lost honey production). Perhaps I will use foundation but try a little foundationless to see what they do.
Thanks again for all the great responses.
Ray
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See the writing on Michael Bush's page about the expense of making wax not being such a big deal:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm
Linda T
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See the writing on Michael Bush's page about the expense of making wax not being such a big deal:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm
That text calls "research" to help when facts are not pleasant. The consumption of honey to produce wax has been know as long as I have been beekeeper, 45 years. I have allways gived 6 kg sugar to the swarm which draw a langstroth box of foundations. I have had tens of swarms.
All beekeepers know that if you put swarm on ready combs, they forage enormously honey, because swarm is mad to work.
If you please open the link http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm .
This measuring lasted 3 seasons.
And if you look netto profit of beekeeping, the influence of foundations are much more bigger.
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It has researched too that when you give winter syrup for bees and they process it and cap it, 25% of sugar will go into store processing.
Nothing happens without energy in life. So you give 20 kg sugar for winter and in final store bees have 15 kg after 2 weeks.
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On the otherhand, if you are a hobby beek like me, and want to save some cash at the front, once the comb is drawn it out you are all set. Sure, not as much honey at the end, but it didn't cost as much to get started. And then you still have drawn comb.
It is worth it if this is a hobby and you are trying to minimize pocketbook impact...like building a house all at once on a loan or building it as the money becomes available. And fun to see what the bees do as long as they don't mess it up too bad :)
But if you are running a business and need honey and money.......
Rick
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I know it's not economical from Finsky's POV to let the bees re-draw comb, but I like it because I really like to do cut comb honey - which tastes lucious - and that requires new wax every year.
Also I harvest as a hobbyist with crush and strain, so my bees are making new comb every year anyway.....
but like Rick says, if you are selling it and are doing it for a business, then that will certainly influence your thinking and planning.
Linda T not a honey business woman in Atlanta
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i'm getting 3 packages on saturday and plan to install them in deeps with frames with just small cell starter strips i got from jim on the beesource board. I plan to use the wedges to hold the starter strips.
i hope this works out. i'm gonna work on the strips tonight. i guess i may have to melt some beeswax. wouldn't a hair dryer melt the wax?
o...one more thing...is there a "this side up" on starter strips?
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hairdryer does melt wax, and pretty fast too!
this side up? well the starter strip has to be on the top side of the frame when you insert the frame.
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so this seems to have worked out well with just nailing the wedges with the strip edge under the wedge. but i wish i had smaller fingers to hold those tiny nails. sometimes pieces of the strips broke off and some in the package were a little broken. now to see how the bees like it.....
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Waxing it in is a picnic compared to those tiny little nails. I'll never order a wedge/nail whatever you call it frame again.
Linda T with sympathy in Atlanta
PS randydrivesabus: I am forever grateful to you for the suggestion about taking bees out of the house with a glass and a postcard. I'm on my 25th bee removal from the house with that method.....
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two words....WOOD GLUE
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Beekeeping is not suitable hobby for lazy people. It makes only harm for them.
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Air nailer/ electric stapler. Not too expensive and makes it a lot easier to be lazy when assembling frames. Don't glue your wedges, it'll be a pain if you ever want to put foundation or strips in there again.
Randy, put the long edge in the wedge. If you do the narrow edge it will hang way past the bottom of the frame. :roll: Seriously, though, there isn't an up or down.
WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER!!! I'm glad you like to work so hard, finsky :-D :) I like to enjoy my hobby, not make it a bunch of work. If I'm going to work I want to get paid for it.
Rick
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WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER!!! I'm glad you like to work so hard, finsky :-D :) I like to enjoy my hobby, not make it a bunch of work. If I'm going to work I want to get paid for it.
Rick
HAH HAH, smart hobby. I have done this 45 years. Frame work is just job for smarts and that is why I ask my wife to do it. Best advices come from 1. year beekeepers. :-D
You know, smart is a such who learn from others. When I read this forum, people make all but not necessary works here. They like to invent every year a new wheel. There goes your smartness, heh heh. Life is so radical.
There is nothing smart to use foundationless frames, even if it is hobby. But if you save the globe with that, so it is smart.
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well i knew that my question as to which way is up would turn out to make me look dumb after i posted it but if it made any of you smile it was worth it.
having nailed in full size foundation and now starter strips i would say that full size is way easier with the wires hanging off the end.
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Now Finsky, you know that we first/second year beekeepers learn by posting here and being refuted by people in the know!
Linda T :-D :? :roll: :evil:
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GOOD HINT:
If you use foundation, make 8-10 mm gap between lower bar and foundation. Wax enlarges in the heat of hive and it needs space. If gap is too small, the lowest part of comb will become curved.
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Now Finsky, you know that we first/second year beekeepers learn by posting here and being refuted by people in the know!
Linda T :-D :? :roll: :evil:
:mrgreen:
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Good idea on trimming the foundation Finsky!
I saw this happen on a couple frames only. But if it happens on a couple,it could happen a lot. 8-)
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Finsky,
Good to have you back old boy. Your advice about trimming foundation - would that apply to frames in honey supers as well as brood frames?
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I use medium frames in supers. I have not found problem there and it dosen not distur because cell are used for honey.
In brood area bees cannot use twisted cells.
If you want to straighten the curve, cut 10 mm comb edge off and twist comb plate in right position. You may cut a bigger piece and bees use it as drone zone. In late summer bees make only worker cells.
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One word -- foundationless.
The center one is what I do now.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled5.jpg
Using the sled, I can cut a 100 in 15 minutes safely
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled4.jpg
because the blade is buried in the cut, never exposed.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled2.jpg
The bees like just fine, and no strips to fall or warp.
http://www.myoldtools.com/OBhive/OB1.jpg
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Ross,
Not sure what I'm seeing in the top photo. What's the purpose of the apparent bevel at the top of the frame?
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Its for foundationless comb. Gives the bees a starting point. What you are looking at is the bottom of the top bar befor the frame is assembled.
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well i knew that my question as to which way is up would turn out to make me look dumb after i posted it but if it made any of you smile it was worth it.
There is an up and down according to some.
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iis there a "this side up" on starter strips?
randydrivesabus, there is some work on Housel positioning that would suggest that there IS an up or down to the starter strips (any foundation). I used it in the last box I put on a hive which had been building messy comb from starter strips in hopes that it would help....we'll see.
Here's a reference:
http://cordovan-honeybee.com/housel/index.htm
I believe that Michael Bush has not found it to be particularly necessary and has some interesting pictures on his site about confused up and down comb
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=2826.msg20221#msg20221 - you can search the beemaster site for more on housel positioning, however and read more about it.
Linda T in Atlanta
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small nails/big fingers problem solved,electric brad nailer from lowes.
bob