Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
ALMOST BEEKEEPING - RELATED TOPICS => FARMING & COUNTRY LIFE => Topic started by: BeeMaster2 on December 31, 2022, 09:31:09 pm
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Our new horse Cherokee branded me this morning. Judy and I were feeding the chickens and she kept trying to open the feed buckets that were in the wagon. I chased her off several times and the last time she spun around shot her read end in the air and kicked me with both feet. Knocked me back but I was able to slowly get to the ground. I called dispatch on my radio and called for help.
We spent most of the afternoon in the hospital getting blood test and CAT scans. Luckily no broken bones and no damage to my lives. Just very sore.
If you look closely you can see 2 footprints.
I?ll bee fine after a few days.
Jim Altmiller
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Oh my, Jim! That is terrible! :sad: You are lucky you were not seriously hurt. Hope you feel better soon.
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I rode a lot of horses when I was young. I was always kind of scared of them and learned to like motorcycles better. Each has their own personality. I was only kicked in the leg once during a storm but was bucked off a few time and have been taken under low hanging branches or rubbed up against fences. Never had a run-a-way but have seen a few. One broke some splines off my little brothers back when bucking him off. He is still screwed up to this day a bit. The one that kicked me was one we raised from a colt and was self trained and so I am sure was not trained well cause we basically just started riding her with out spending any time and at that age I figured it was better riding a green horse then it was walking to the neighbors house which was about a mile away.
It was all good but I admit to liking motorcycles better.
Hope you feel better soon though I suspect the soreness will be worst on day three before going the other way. Glad it was not worse though.
Cheers
gww
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Not a good situation; It could have been a lot worse, thankfully it wasn't. This is not an uncommon thing to have happen with a new horse. Feeding time and place, is where the 'pecking order' is mainly established between each individual horse as well as the people handling them. Handlers are not excluded by some horses when establishing, who is the boss, and pecking order. You assumed you were the top of the ladder in authority. Cherokee, though seeming to accept this at first, decided to challenge your dominance as the heard leader after a couple of times of being ran back, or 'shooed' back. The is "Natures way" in horse language.
How long have you had Cherokee? How does Cherokee behave normally, (when feed in is not involved)? How does Cherokee behave with the other horses? I always recommend any new horse going back to 'horse school' to make sure the horse has had proper schooling and knows its ABC's. This is for the good of the horse as well as the horse owner.
Phillip
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Thanks everyone.
Phillip,
You are correct.
Lately Cherokee has switched from being the newcomer and being on the bottom of the pecking order to trying her best to be the alpha. She has been fighting back a lot lately with Chief Crazy Horse and Cheyenne and is gaining ground. Even when riding her she has switched from being submissive to demanding her way.
It is time to go back to a lot of ground work.
Jim Altmiller
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I know you already know this Jim, stay on your toes, she will be more prone to further offensive behavior toward you since this incident. She will have more confidence in the dominance she 'thinks' she has built, so be careful when first beginning your ground work..
Though many colts do not go all out, I have ran across a couple colts that in fact, went 'all out' when "thinking" they were going to be the boss of the outfit lol. It is my experience these horses, after graduating from 'horse school', found a mutual understanding and respect between themselves and rider (handler); Such horses many times, make 'excellent' partners in cow work for example, as well as other horses related activities.
Phillip
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Ground work is everything. Even so, a horse that is willing to kick like that might not be worth keeping. I'd keep a nice buggy whip or something like that handy because you have to establish yourself as top of the herd with her. People fuss about going after a horse with bad manners like that, but you can't begin to do to them what they do to each other to establish dominance. 1500 lbs or so of not Black Beauty :grin:
Glad you were not hurt worse. Had a friend get kicked like that and had broken ribs and a punctured lung. We aren't getting any younger!!
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Ben Framed
Feeding time and place, is where the 'pecking order' is mainly established between each individual horse as well as the people handling them. Handlers are not excluded by some horses when establishing, who is the boss, and pecking order. You assumed you were the top of the ladder in authority. Cherokee, though seeming to accept this at first, decided to challenge your dominance as the heard leader after a couple of times of being ran back, or 'shooed' back. The is "Natures way" in horse language.
Kathyp
I'd keep a nice buggy whip or something like that handy because you have to establish yourself as top of the herd with her.
Horses can be what we humans consider very cruel to one another. Usually at feeding time is where this behavior is shown or brought out, and where the order of dominance is realized by the whole heard from one horse to the next, be it two horses or fifty, there WILL be a pecking order. kicking, biting, and pawing are good examples of this offensive behavior. The handler needs some sort of equalizing tool for an advantage for self defense 'always' when mingling with the heard at feeding time in my opinion. This is the 'first place' in my opinion where actual ground work begins 'at feeding time'. This simple tool will allow you a 'way' to keep a 'safe space' between yourself and 'all' the horses, while establishing you are the 'boss horse' so to speak and this tool is rarely needed to be 'used' more than the vision of it in hand or a simple wave of it once they see you are willing to defend yourself with it.
Don't worry, they will still be your friend. They will learn what your rules are about distance and will not view you as being mean or cruel but will simply offer respect to you as one horse to another lol.
Once again, remember what they can and will do to each other to establish 'their' order which you as a handler are a part of. Once pecking order is established with a heard, and they realize you 'will' defend your self, 'your space', and accept you as the undisputed leader of the heard, usually a simple wave of the tool is all that is needed for a reminder if a horse gets too close. Just as the boss horse will back its ears and reach out with a warning as to bite another lower ranking horse at the feed trough as a reminder to the other, "hey you are getting to close, this is my space and my food, get back". Meaning in horse language, "get back Jack" this is my turf lol. If the lower ranking horse forgets the warning, or feels the need of to push the issue further by challenging the dominate horses space, the dominate horse 'will not usually' warn the second time, but lay in with a aggressive 'mean bite' in close proximity at the feeding trough which a bite is bad enough for a horse but can be devastating to a human! If a bite is not good enough and more is needed to keep that space at the feeding trough then more action 'will' be taken by the upper level horse.
This is where you might have made a mistake without knowing Jim. When you shooed the horse back the first time she heeded. But the second time she might have thought "hum, no action just another warning". I think I will simply see if I can take over this operation" thus a full out challenge, challenging you by coming at you with both back feet flying. This was not her first rodeo in establishing herself in a horse pecking order.
A handler must be prepared to do the same 'if necessary' when space is 'ask for' by that handler when negative non-respect is shown by the horse.. Please remember when establishing pecking order, you are considered no more than another member of the heard during the transition time of establishing the order. As Kathy well pointed out we are no match for a horse pound for pound. We have to have a way to protect and handle the heard safely especially at feeding time.
A bit more: When the lead horse decides to feed somewhere else at the feeding trough, he or she can proceed anywhere he pleases with out physical rebuttal. The other horses will clear the way it has chosen. This respect of the heard must be established by the handler as well. The herdsmen should be able to walk anywhere in the heard of horses, with a full feed bucket, he chooses to go without any horse invading his space. Remember they are ALL watching. If one of the upper ranking horses happens to challenge you for the bucket of feed, lay into him with 'horse aggression', kind of like Josey Whales told Granny and Chief when it came down to survival, "you have got to get lowdown mean". lol When he sees he has made a mistake, the rest see it too, they already know 'not' to challenge mr or ms boss so they will usually not bother to challenge you either after witnessing you will take up for yourself. The distance of reach that a horse can bite or kick may be further than many may think, they are fast moving creatures though large in size. Even the gentlest of horses can hurt you at feeding time if this natural horse order has not been established. Always 'demand' a distance which you feel safe in....
Phillip
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which a bite is bad enough for a horse but can be devastating to a human!
1997 I had an encounter with a baby copperhead (long story...) Small rural hospital with a two bed emergency room. While I was there a man was brought in who had been bitten by a horse, on his neck! Got a good look before they closed the curtain between us, and absolutely would not have traded places with him!
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I understand William, I would like to hear more about the snake bite if you would like to share the experience sometime.
Jim is not the first to learn from the school of hard knocks. I took a really bad bite by one of my most gentle and prized horses. He would nod his head up and down at feeding time in his stall, while greeting me.. One day he nodded his head up and down and all of a sudden reached out with lightening speed and let me have it! In spite of being layered up with clothing and a vest, the bite turned my chest black and blue! I can not imaging this happening to a lady..
I always carried a limber leather Mexican type quirt on my wrist and did immediately retaliate but the damage was done. From that time forward anytime a horse met me with any time of visual excitement when approaching a stall, I would demand space even there at the front of the stall.
Phillip
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I got kicked by a foal on my right side, bottom rib. Knocked me to the ground and I crawled back to the house. That was 20 years ago. It still hurts. I got head butted by an impatient horse when I was pouring feed into her feed bucket and she tossed her head and clocked me with it. I saw stars and almost passed out. Horses are unpredictable.
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You got lucky Jim. I've almost got my head taken off by a colt once, don't know how I ducked in time. Glad it wasn't much worse for you.
Remember the 1/4" rule. lol
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CLS,
What is the 1/4? rule?
Jim Altmiller
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Make sure you're not more than 1/4" from their rump... unless you're at least six feet...
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The 1/4 inch I agree with. Though it might be the accepted rule, to be on the safer side, six feet is not far enough in my opinion..
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Thanks.
In this situation I was more than 9 feet away from her rump. I was arms length from her nose and she spun around and kicked me.
Jim Altmiller
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>In this situation I was more than 9 feet away from her rump. I was arms length from her nose and she spun around and kicked me.
Usually you get kicked as a reflex when they didn't realize there was someone behind them... I'm not sure I would trust her at all after that...
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Their is a distant difference in the reflexes of a startled horse striking out and one that calculates aggressiveness which is the deal in your case Jim. A strong willed horse is not for everyone. It does not mean that such a horse can not be productive if handled in the proper manner and that through proper school work, i.e. grond work, along with the ability to 'read the horse, which comes' from experience. Sometimes from a negative experience from horse to handle is that lesson learned as I posted above with the bite. I had been around horses my entire life and learned yet another lesson from my teacher, mr horse that day. lol
I have started many colts and as mentioned it is rare than a colt goes 'all out' with total and full out aggression behavior but I have had a couple that did so. When I say all out I mean have it out with you until one of you comes out victorious. One such colt was in colt school which was a good student having learned his ABCs and was somewhere around S,T,U,V in grade average. A colt that I admired for his intelligence and fast and eggar learning. He was polite and seemed a nice student which had gently graduated from letter A to each letter which came next, such as learning to stand patiently when tied, enjoying being groomed, gentle to the accepting the bridle, patient with the blanket and saddle, calm with leg touching and picking up his feet, including hoof trimming, learned round pen work skills such as lunging bareback, and in time with the saddle on his back. What whoa means, and would actually come to a sliding stop in the round pen when the voice command was given from a distance. He was almost ready for the first ride. I taught him to drive, back up so forth also in the round pen without an argument or a confrontation. He was a pleasure.
Now the day for the first ride. All the above things and much more, are important for a colt to know in my opinion before a colt is ever mounted. I have found in many cases, in the case a colt is startled by the weight of the rider and decides to buck, usually a firm whoa will stop the buck in its track. You gently speak to the colt while keeping your seat, reaffirm you intentions are good. Once the colt blows which in Horse talk means is relaxed. I simply dismount go back to the last Letter of the alphabet learned and graduated without incident during school and reassure the horse. The next mounting usually results in no problems in most cases.
So on to what was intended, the first ride. Since and all confidence was built between the horse and I with what I thought was a clear good relationship, I opened the round pen and drove the cold out. Driving is A method of standing behind the colt with very long reigns attached to the English O ring bit, which is my choice in starting colts because of little to no discomfort to the animal, which runs through the tied up stirrups all the way back to the driver, or in my case the soon to be rider, myself.
Well low and behold, something unexpected happened. After leaving the round pen with all A's on his reportcard and driving out of the round pen then past the barn, on the way to the clear blue yonders of green pastures, Mr Beautiful dapple grey, Easy Jet breed colt decided he had had enough of school and abruptly stopped all of a sudden and started running backward with both feet flying. This move by him was totally unexpected by me as he had so far, been a model student. I only had a quirt around my wrist which was no help or to no avail. I hollered whoa which he, out of reflex and repetition from round pen school, stopped, thankfully.
My son was close by and after I ask, handed me the buggy tool with that Kathy mentioned. I knew what would be next and sure enough, as soon as I ask the colt to move forward again, he tried to lite into me again. We had it out! Him kicking and me defending. When the kicking stopped I finish the driving session in the open pasture that just as I had intended and then back into the round pen. I disconnected the driving reigns, added riding reigns, set the stirrup in place, and we had an enjoyable good calm first ride. In fact he rode so well in the round pen that we set sail to open pastures with no incidents to report. He made an excellent horse, althought he just had to try at least one time to be the boss. Once he had taken his best shot at it and failed, from that day forth he never tried aggression again. What a wonderful gentle horse he turned out to be, and it was happily ever after.
Phillip
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Cherokee had been in poor condition, living mostly in a 20 by 30 stall. Within a few weeks of being here she seriously injured her right back foot. My buddy is a professional Ferrier and he took care of her foot for the 7 months for it to heal. She was gentle and easy to work with but she was on the bottom of the picking order with my other two horses. I saddled her up completely several times and she never minded. About two months ago I saddled her up and we had a nice ride. She also let an experienced rider ride her with all three horses. Then Nina came to live here and Cherokee became her horse. Everything was fine until a couple of weeks ago when Cherokee started giving Nina a hard time. We switched horses and slowly I tried to get her to ride separately of the other horses. About 50 feet out she started giving me a hard time also. We rode back together. Nina has tried to ride her without the other horses but she has been refusing, swinging her head around in defiance and fighting to go back.
She is now doing extensive ground training and has seen some improvement but Cherokee will not ride alone anymore. She will ride just fine with the other horses.
We are going to put her saddle on, do ground work in the back field and work her away from the stalls. Then if she is obeying, put her bridle on and continue out to the far side of the property and try to take her on a long ride around property.
Jim Altmiller
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Be careful that she does not become a runaway; Deciding to have her own way and run back to the barn with rider aboard when she decides she would rather to go back to where the other horses are. Their are other ways which might be safer and still pleasant for both horse and rider. But it will take patience and hard work along with training that should yield good results while avoiding a wreck or major confrontation between either horse or rider.... Just my opinion.
Phillip
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CLS,
What is the 1/4? rule?
Always be at least 1/4" farther away than they can reach/kick. Usually round pen/lunging/plowing work.
I know it wasn't really a possibility for you under that circumstance.
Side note. Doing MORE work once you get back to the barn than what you did away, can help with being barn sour. Don't just finish your ride, unsaddle and let em go. If I got that saddle off and a brushing when I went to the barn, that's where I'd like to go as soon as I left. Even if you just leave em' tied for a couple of hours can help.
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CLS,
What is the 1/4? rule?
Always be at least 1/4" farther away than they can reach/kick. Usually round pen/lunging/plowing work.
I know it wasn't really a possibility for you under that circumstance.
Side note. Doing MORE work once you get back to the barn than what you did away, can help with being barn sour. Don't just finish your ride, unsaddle and let em go. If I got that saddle off and a brushing when I went to the barn, that's where I'd like to go as soon as I left. Even if you just leave em' tied for a couple of hours can help.
Agreed.
In fact this is what I recommend before riding her solo again, (ground work) as well as tying her next to the barn area at different times for 'long' sessions. Let other horses come and go, drifting in and out of the pasture and barn area, with the barn doors shut keeping the other horses out, while allowing them to come and going as they please while she has to stand there 'in time out', (if you will), separated from the herd.
After hard work by you and the animal, and you feel the horse is once again ready to be ridden 'solo' and upon riding off she still shows the same barn struck tendencies, IMMEDIATELY 'without hesitation', begin a long hard lunging work out session, 'Like in boot camp lol', once the session is over do not turn her loose but again tie her to the hitching area, let the horse figure it out. "Hey it's much nicer and easier just having a nice pleasant ride than staying at this barn doing this work." Let the horses attitude be your guide as to what needs to be done. This 'may' take a LOT of had work by your both, horse and rider, but with patience and PROPER work and care, you may be able to transform this 'potentially' good horse into becoming a 'GOOD' horse.
Consistency is the key, along with CAUTION as this horses has already PROVEN she has little respect for the handler and will show aggression when she does not get her way. Be ready to defend yourself (if she decides she has had enough of work and instead decides to come at you again for 'this' reason i.e. work refusal). Good luck and enjoy your time and the reward of knowing you have saved a good horse from the dog food and glue company.
Phillip
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PS A horse of this type will always have the 'tendency' to be boss. Unlike a young two year old Colt of Philly, she is a grown mature, set in her ways horse. This means if you put an inexperienced rider on her, even after all the hard work and she is doing just fine with you, she may try taking advantage of the inexperienced rider and attempt trying this inexcusable trait with the inexperience rider. In fact I would be surprised if she did not. If so ,the same problem 'will' occur again if she allowed to getaway with it, (meaning going back to the barn and the ride is terminated). If you give her an inch she 'will' take a mile, remember, consistency is the key.
If you do not feel you have the time, patience, or experience to deal with Cherokee (or; you are not willing to learn with her for what ever reason, to gain that experience), then I recommend selling her to someone who does or is. There is no disgrace. But please disclose all information as you do not want her hurting someone else if you do sell her...
Phillip
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she still shows the same barn struck tendencies, IMMEDIATELY 'without hesitation', begin a long hard lunging work out session, 'Like in boot camp lol', once the session is over do not turn her loose but again tie her to the hitching area, let the horse figure it out. "Hey it's much nicer and easier just having a nice pleasant ride than staying at this barn doing this work." Let the horses attitude be your guide as to what needs to be done.
I know horse people, even trainers who underestimate the usefulness of lunging. Not the old way of running them until they start to hang their head, then jump on them. When they do anything ANYTHING you don't want them to you can lounge them. I was going to train a horse for a ferrier friend who would lunge and lunge and then get on. NO real ground work. But he didn't like me getting off and ground working his horse when he was messing up. In reality he taught his horse how to buck and never got trust before getting on. I couldn't finish his horse his way.
At the least little bit of wrong whatever it may be you "can" lunge the snot out of them and as mentioned they will figure it out, that the ride, holding my foot up for cleaning, later shoeing is a lot easier than running my butt off every time I yank my foot away or whatever your specific case may be.
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I don't know anyone who runs them until they start to hang their head, then jump on them, be they old trainers or newcomers. No doubt different folks do things different ways. I have never lunged a horse for foot work training and honestly Ive never heard it suggested until now. A lot of brushing, grooming, gently rubbing the leg along with soothing talk and patience, leads to picking up the foot, and has always worked for me and has never failed to be accepted in my experience by a Colt or Philly. I do not doubt that a lot of lunging will speed thing up in foot work. Kind of like kids who run, jump, and play at recess will be much more calm and relaxed when they go back to the classroom with the teacher. lol
I agree, building confidence in the trainer by the Colt or Philly is a step by step process. When done correctly will build a solid foundation which will produce good solid dependable gentle horses.
A 'runaway' barn struck older sour horse on the the other hand is outright dangerous, not only to the rider but the horse itself. Lunging has its time and place as well as grooming, and other aspects of gentle, easy patient, training. Knowing 'when' to do 'this or that', or knowing when 'not' to do 'this or that', is the key.....
Phillip
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CLS I am glad you joined, no doubt you and I, and hopefully others can share experiences we have had in training horses (and dogs).
Phillip
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Deciding to have her own way and run back to the barn with rider aboard when she decides she would rather to go back to where the other horses are.
Yup. Be ready to pin that nose to your knee and bail if she goes down.
I guess I am getting old, but there are to many good horses out there for me to fool with rank stuff anymore.
Good luck!
Oh, and it's not too uncommon for a horse that's insecure to be barn sour when they first come to a new place. They don't want to leave their new buddies. Longer and longer walks away from them, and them away from here will build her confidence although some horses never get over it and if they get to run back once, that's pretty much it. They'll always try it.
But he didn't like me getting off and ground working his horse when he was messing up. In reality he taught his horse how to buck and never got trust before getting on. I couldn't finish his horse his way.
Yup. Never let them do on a line what you don't want them to do under saddle. :wink:
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if they get to run back once, that's pretty much it. They'll always try it.
Agreed in most case. This is why I was warning Jim to be careful that he doesn't unknowably contribute to starting this action.
I have to be away from my computer for a while but I would like share a true story of such a horse later.
Phillip
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Thanks for all of your posts. I?m listening.
Right now I?m giving Nina a lot of leeway with her horse. She took a year old colt, broke it and has been jumping it for many years. She is making headway with Cherokee. I really think she knows what she is doing.
Jim Altmiller
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And I don't know anyone who lunges them until they start to hang their head, then jump on them, old folks or newcomers.
Well that was the old way for many old timers and those today who only remember them and their ways.
No doubt different folks do things different ways. I have never lunged a horse for foot work training and honestly Ive never heard it suggested until now. I think Ill pass on that one lol. A lot of brushing, grooming, gently rubbing the leg along with soothing talk and patience, leads to picking up the foot, and has always worked for me and has never failed to be accepted in my experience.
I agree mostly on this especially the start of the grooming etc down to picking up the foot. Yet I've had several that didn't want to keep their foot up. Easy peasy to pick up a foot, yet they didn't want it for very long. That's when I used the lunge. I think if you don't need to use the lunge in this instance don't, those that come across a problem later please do.
I always start that way and have had horses that would pick up the next foot for me and let me clean it. Then they may lay down when trying to actually shoe them.
My greatest asset to training today is to have the wife groom/pet/loveblahblahblah while I'm gone and I come home to an easy horse that thinks nothing of being saddled.
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Several other post were sent before I noticed the new ones.
CLS I am glad you joined, no doubt you and I, and hopefully others can share experiences we have had in training horses (and dogs).
I haven't done a dog in a while, although I'm trying to get a 5 yr old to train a blue heeler. The dog still doesn't like me. The wife picked him up while I was on a job. It not liking me is what I LOVE about heelers.
Yup. Never let them do on a line what you don't want them to do under saddle.
Ditto
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Your welcome Jim. Your approach may very well turn out 'just fine' and I am rooting for you while hoping it does and the chances are 'it will'.
Just pointing out what certain actions can lead to, while attempting helping you reduce the odds and avoid things going sour in a hurry, by sharing information which has been learned from the school of hard knocks, as well as information that has been handed down through generations my family who made their way of life by ranching.
:smile:
Phillip
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CLS, I love Blue Heelers. I relate! lol
When you have the time search the topic "My Friend Tuff" in the search engine at the top of the main page. I feel sure you can relate lol..
Phillip
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CLS I had edited my post in reply 24 before you posted, I am agreeing with you that I can see where lunging for foot work will be of help, especially with a rough horse or spooky colt. I edited that post to say:
I do not doubt that a lot of lunging will speed thing up in foot work. Kind of like kids who run, jump, and play at recess will be much more calm and relaxed when they go back to the classroom with the teacher. lol
Of course kids and long enough 'recesses' at school these days may be seen as politically incorrect. ADD meds seem to be the accepted remedy for energetically inclined children. More so than a good 'ole fashion' recess full of run, jump, and play hard and 'get the energy out' until the bell rings "so you can come back to class relaxed and settled down, more easy to learn and absorb what teacher is expressing". lol
But what do I know? I am not attempting to switch the conversation to politics, but just wanted to point out the similarities of young and growing beings, be it an energetic Kitten, Colt, Dog, Calf, or even a human. They all in my opinion, need to let out the natural built up energy. lol Now back to horses...
Phillip
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When I was a kid we had a neighbor boy who loved to ride. He rode just for the simple pleasure of it. No shows, no horseback work, just loved to ride. He had a small paint horse about 14.2 hands. A very good looking horse but their was a problem, every once in a wile the horse would just run off! Not to the barn but when the mood struck him he would just take off! I mean an all out runaway! This did not happen regularly, long periods of time might pass before he would do it again.
Kathys' warning of what to do when this happens in case of spill, reminded of a particular day. That day the horse pulled another run-a-way stunt. He was riding in our area and the clopping of horses hoofs could be heard before seen. The road was narrow and graveled. The horse was laying it down! When he came into sight it looked like the All American Futurity leader at Ruidoso Downs! lol
Where the road ended into a tee, their was a small inclined bank. The horse tried to make the jump over the ditch but was going to fast to make what would have been an easy jump at a slower speed so no jumping momentum was afforded. The horse lost his footing and fell. Both rider and horse went tumbling. We ran to his aid and miraculously neither horse nor rider was seriously hurt. Bruised up, banged up, and cuts but no broken bones. This was a tough kid. The grown ups ask if he would like for one of us kids to pony him back home, or the grown ups would trailer his horse home, if he preferred. He said no Sir, he has it out of his system. He will be ok for a few months and off they went... Mmmm it was my opinion he should have had a oneway trip to the dogfood plant. lol
Phillip
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Ben
Dog food? You got something against glue? :happy:
Cheers
gww
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lol :grin: Good point gww!! The glue factory might have been a better choice for this runaway! :wink:
I like your thinking, Instead of running off, he could have been some use in holding things together.! lol
Phillip
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Ben, I used to have a mare like that. She was the greatest trail horse. Never put a foot wrong. Every once in awhile, she'd just jump out from under me. It was like she waited for me to relax and then she'd bold forward about 10 ft. I put up with it for a long time, but she began to get squirrely about other things too. One day she launched over the hitching post as I went to give her vaccines. That was it. Too much danger. Too many vet bills from her throwing herself around. I couldn't in good conscience sell her so I ended up having her put down. One of the hardest decisions I have ever made about an animal, but I did get a nice colt out of her first and he's not nuts. :grin:
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Horses, like people, have their own personalities. Some can be a pleasure to be around and work with, while others can be outright dangerous to people as well as themselves. Sorry she did not work out for you Kathy but life and limb is not worth continuing risking in my opinion... The type of horse you described can be 'very' dangerous.... Once they have learned to calculate from circumstances which fall in their favor, meaning they learn they can dump the rider at will 'when they see the time is right', the more dangerous and more the undesired actions will progress.
There are ways to deal with such a horse as you have described, but it takes 'much' experience.. Experience which the majority of folks lack. There comes a time when decisions have to be made for what is laid before a person. Some times those decisions are hard. I hope you are still enjoying horses Kathy.
Phillip
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I hope you are still enjoying horses Kathy.
I am. In the case of that mare even my vet thought she had a screw loose. :grin:
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We had a Colt out of Bugs Alive In Seventy Five that defiantly had a screw loose. It happens in nature. 😁
Phillip
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I've watched Brian Neubert and Chris Cox work with out of control horses. Brian took a wild mustang and had it pretty well broke in about an hour. It's not about wearing the horse out, but getting it to pay attention and respond. Chris just uses a long lead line and swings it in the air it to move the horse back and forth until it's paying attention. If waving it in the air isn't working he will lightly hit the horse on the back end while he's facing the horse to get the horse to move it's hind quarter one way and then the other way. My grandpa grew up driving and breaking horses. He always said you treat a horse with gentleness and kindness, but sometimes you have to get their attention first.
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My grandfather owned the livery stable and bought and sold horses all his life. He would go down to the islands off the coast of NC and catch the wild ponies. Then bring them 225 miles back, break them and sell them or use them in livery. He died after a horse stepped on his big toe. At 5 years old, I didn't understand gangrene, so I was afraid of horses all the time I was growing up.
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CLS, I love Blue Heelers. I relate! lol
When you have the time search the topic "My Friend Tuff" in the search engine at the top of the main page. I feel sure you can relate lol..
Phillip
I did the search. It just showed your post suggesting the search. Hmmm, no biggie
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CLS, I love Blue Heelers. I relate! lol
When you have the time search the topic "My Friend Tuff" in the search engine at the top of the main page. I feel sure you can relate lol..
Phillip
I did the search. It just showed your post suggesting the search. Hmmm, no biggie
Here it is. https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51961.0
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Here it is. https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51961.0
Reagan, thanks for finding and posting the link. Yes that is it!
Phillip
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I've watched Brian Neubert and Chris Cox work with out of control horses. Brian took a wild mustang and had it pretty well broke in about an hour. It's not about wearing the horse out, but getting it to pay attention and respond. Chris just uses a long lead line and swings it in the air it to move the horse back and forth until it's paying attention. If waving it in the air isn't working he will lightly hit the horse on the back end while he's facing the horse to get the horse to move it's hind quarter one way and then the other way. My grandpa grew up driving and breaking horses. He always said you treat a horse with gentleness and kindness, but sometimes you have to get their attention first.
> It's not about wearing the horse out, but getting it to pay attention and respond.
Unless he is a dangerous barn-struck horse which can turn into a full out runaway which can KILL you.. In that case the wearing out can be a tool as described above to help the horse.
As said, "It's not about wearing the horse out, but getting it to pay attention and respond" and I will add; The most gentle and easiest way for the horse which will work out, which by the way, will also be more pleasant for the trainer also in most cases.
I do not lunge a colt until all the steps which proceed are first implemented in horse school (as I said in earlier post). but there again different folks do things different ways which may lead to the same good results. Or a different sequence of introduced steps may differ form trainer to trainer as CLS described his method as working well for him and the horse by lunging first before teaching leg and foot work, and I can see where that might help the Colt of Philly to be more settled down and relaxed during that first leg and foot handling step. Even though I do it differently. After all their is more than one way to skin a cat lol.
The way I go about it in my program which works well for me is tying, leading, brushing, introduction to the bit, introduced to saddle blankets, introduction to the saddle, introduction of the 'feel' of the saddle girth (which if very unnatural for an untrained horse and can be frightening for such animal) , gentle leg and foot work etc. Lunging is far down the list in the horse school, perhaps the 8th grade would be a good description.
The lunging tool is multifunctional tool, used to help the colt to accept the unnatural 'odd feel' of the saddle, and stirrups 'bumping' his side while in motion and is where sometimes a buck can be witnessed if a colt is frightened enough. That is why I take is slow and easy, I do not want them to ever know what 'buck' is. lol.
Lunging is also an all important 'aid' building up to the most important word of all, 'WHOA' which will be even further built upon and learned when driving school is in session. Lunging helps build confidence between the colt, equipment, (saddles and such) and trainer, for those later driving lessons which are to come later in the round pen, where the gentle feel of the slight pressure of the bit is used. When the Colt is asked to Whoa during driving sessions, it is so much easier for the colt when lunging school had the word whoa introduced in that class before hand.
When the time is right for Lunging school; Using 'body language' to help encourage the colt to continue movement is a good block builder. When a good session is complete, speak a firm WHOA in unisons while immediately ceasing body language is important, and is like unto the drill Sergeant saying to the private AT-EASE. The horse is allowed to stop with out being ask to further do 'anything', then rewarded with a gentle talking to, and gentle rubbing, while adding a 'good boy' or 'good girl' as well, at least that is how I do it. The word whoa taught in this manner from that point is associated by the colt with stopping and reward. Also; Longing will help settle a colt or previously untrained horse down if he is fresh and jumpy,. Just as a simple 15 minute recess of play time will help settle an energetic child, so he or she can come back to the class room with a refreshed and relaxed mind and body, thus more eager to learn and absorb what is being taught in class.
All while 'Keeping their attention' As your grandaddy explained.
> If waving it in the air isn't working he will lightly hit the horse on the back end while he's facing the horse to get the horse to move it's hind quarter one way and then the other way.
My way as well..
> He always said you treat a horse with gentleness and kindness,
Which he was right and is what I have emphasized repeatedly in prior post.
>but sometimes you have to get their attention first.
It doesn't take much to get the average 'untrained' horses' attention when properly schooled, rarely should you need to do more than you described in the Chirs Cox situation above. Unless, you have one that comes at you with both back feet flying meaning to take your head off as I also gave an example above. This type horse Colt or Philly is rare, few, and far in between, (speaking of untrained horses) including wild horses. i.e. Even wild horses have a pecking order and will come around pretty quickly in training if properly handled while seeing you are the 'main horse', while realizing you mean no harm to them as they learn to accept " this person is a head higher on the totem pole than I am" A person has to have the gift of communicating with the horse which can not talk nor understand English 'until certain words are introduced and learned'. Proper schooling while building their trust by communication in a way they can understand 'horse language', is the gentle and best way. (In my opinion).
i..e.
(I was not speaking of a spoiled horse as Jim has described who has learned through action how to get her way, seeking a higher elevation in the pecking order and having built the the confidence of achieving that goal through action, a totally different ball game. I am speaking of 'untrained' horses whether wild or gentle).
PS
Two of my Uncles, my Daddy, and a Cousin, who were all raised ON ranches making their living with both horses and cows as my Grandaddy before, decided to go to a Chris Cox 2 day event. My Son and I tagged along for a family, guys day out. This was back before Chris Cox was so much a TV horse Star. You might be interested to know he not only lunged his horse in this event, and (both days), but longed it around the bounds of entire inside of the Paul Battle arena located in Tunica Ms, 'several times' 'without cease' (and its a big arena). That is more than I have 'ever felt' that a colt or filly in training, had the need in one session in my experience. 'Except for the hope of saving a 'dangerous' barn struck, potential runaway, spoiled horse, from the glue man.' And I rather doubt that anyone can really stop a 'true runaway' as the one I posted about above, short of the glue factor ( that was for you gww), :wink: a barn struck horse is another matter and has a fair chance of a good life if handled properly. Again in my opinion.. and I am not knocking Chris Cox, it worked for Chris and as I said before, their's more than one way to skin a cat.😁 Chris did a good job that weekend.
Phillip
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I've watched Brian Neubert and Chris Cox work with out of control horses.
I got to watch Clinton Anderson several times. He had some really great sacking out methods that I used with success. Bomb proofing is always my first move.
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>Unless he is a dangerous barn-struck horse which can turn into a full out runaway which can KILL you..
The Chris Cox demo was exactly that kind of horse.
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>Unless he is a dangerous barn-struck horse which can turn into a full out runaway which can KILL you..
The Chris Cox demo was exactly that kind of horse.
For Chris' demonstration horse, do you remember what type of dangerous life treating injuries had been inflicted on the previous handler before Chris helped the horse? Did Chris use the coiled rope while on horse back of a well trained horse as part of the training exercise and session? Did he do all the work on foot? I searched for any archives hoping to find the answers to these and other questions... unfortunately to no avail.
Every horse is different, every circumstance is different. Any horse might react differently in any circumstance of training. Each individual horse guides the best and easiest path for both horse and handler individually. Even when a problem is made know. The level of training ability also differs from handler to handle. No one thing is a fix all for all. Many factors are and can be involved in each situation.
Phillip
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There are many trainers. Some are popular and are very good at it while making a lot of money doing it, as the ones mentioned. I suppose for starting colts, the person who does basic things very similar to the way I was taught by family and horses is a fellow named Mike Kevil. He is pretty much spot on as the way we do things. I do not know how popular his is but he has a really good book, or did several years ago published by Western Horseman. If someone such as Jim wished to start a few colts, or even learn the basis of it, I would HIGHLY suggest this book if it is still in print..
Phillip
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The horse would attack both front feet (rearing and kicking) and back (spin around and kick). I don't know if anyone had been hurt before, just how the horse was acting and what the issue was.
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The horse would attack both front feet (rearing and kicking) and back (spin around and kick). I don't know if anyone had been hurt before, just how the horse was acting and what the issue was.
Yes that is how many barn struck 'sour' horses act when they wish to head back to the barn.
When correcting this problem, Its pretty hard to simply tap an attacking horse on its hind quarters or back with a 'coiled up' rope when It is kicking at you with both feet at one end and trying to stomp and bite you on the other end, you are in the kill zone unless you are on the back of another 'well trained' horse suited for such purposes, which many do not have.
I have never seen such but I heard of a person making the mistake attempting to back the horse away from the barn area while onboard, thinking that move might help. The horse flipped back on top of the rider...
Phillip
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When I was a kid we had a horse named captain. He was a good 17 hands tall and beautiful. He liked to flip over backwards. Broke my old mans wrist doing so one time. Wish they would have had you tube back then so I could have watched repurposing the horses instinct by trainers like they have on now. Got to admit though that we probably would not have took the time as we had lots of horses with bad habits that we just used with those bad habits or sold.
Cheers
gww
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Watch some Chris Cox videos and you'll get a feel for it. It's not just touching the horse, it's getting the horse to start paying attention and responding to the person in charge.
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The horse would attack both front feet (rearing and kicking) and back (spin around and kick). I don't know if anyone had been hurt before, just how the horse was acting and what the issue was.
Do you have a link to that video? I did a search and found several Cris Cox Videos but not the right one.
Jim Altmiller
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>Do you have a link to that video?
The presentation I was referring to I watched in person at the local Equine Expo. But the principle is the same in most of his videos which is basically a simple system to get the horse paying attention and in the long run to make it a habit for them to pay attention. I haven't searched YouTube to see what he has there. I have bought a number of his videos on DVD but it's been a long time since I bought them or watched them. This particular demonstration the horse was really out of control and had gotten in the habit of intimidating people by rearing and kicking. But the principle he used in all of his demos (he did several at that Expo) was the same as he seems to use for everything. I suppose part of the confidence of these horsemen with a dangerous horse is knowing how fast you have to be to keep out of trouble and just what you can and can't do so you don't fail and give the horse the idea that they can get away with it. A lot of it is timing. A lot of it is horse psychology.
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I liked watching Chris Cox when I had satellite.
Phillip. I was reading on another forum that you went to the chuck wagon races in Clinton. They have a few wild ones there. How did you like it? I used to out ride for some of them.
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We had a nice time there. I think I seen about every type of horse and mule imaginable. The year we went there were 40 something thousand horses and mules gathered. It was announced it was the largest congregation of horses and mules since the Civil War.. That is the first time I seen a zebra bred mule and there were several of those also, mostly pulling wagons. I will post a picture of one if I found on the net.
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It's a zonkey.
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The expos are fun. Haven't been to one in years. I tend to spend money when I go!
Any horse might react differently in any circumstance of training
That's why I always rolled my eyes when someone advertised that they used X method of training. It's kind of like using some book method of parenting.
All these folks have good ideas. They are all worth listening to. then you take the things that work for you and for the horse you are training. Come to think of it...it's like beekeeping :grin: Learn as much as you can. Use what works for you.
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Downunder Horsemanship which is Clinton Anderson, has a streaming app. Some of the others, like Cox used to be on TV on RFD-TV channel. Don't know who is still on there. Dish has/had horse.tv and there were some of the better trainers on there.
Edit: Horse.tv has an app too.
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Back in the 70s they called a donkey zebra cross a donzebra. Zonkey is so much cooler of a name... I remember back about 1974 there was a pregnant donzebra and that was earth shattering. I thought they were going to try to establish a new breed like they did with the Beefalo when they blundered onto a cattelo that got pregnant.
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"Back in the 70s they called a donkey zebra cross a donzebra. Zonkey is so much cooler of a name..."
zit zure zis :shocked: :wink:
"I thought they were going to try to establish a new breed like they did with the Beefalo when they blundered onto a cattelo that got pregnant."
The Beefalo and the Cattelo, must have wondered under a low limb of Mistletoe! :cheesy:
Phillip