Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: mtnb on July 20, 2016, 10:45:14 pm
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Today I went and looked at an established colony located in the local liquor store ceiling. I took my husband's portable inspection camera which allowed me to look above the ceiling tile and see the bees. They have been there for a year now and from what I saw, they have several combs built. I saw at least two that I could make out and the outer one was filled with honey. Many bees. It's an old building and the ceiling is made up of 1' x 2' tiles which won't be hard to remove. I think. haha Above that is a layer of insulation, the type you lay in, and the bees are above that. I plan on removing several of these tiles and basically working within that bay between the studs. I do have a full suit which I plan on wearing. I have a queen clip and hope to find her as I remove the comb and rubber band that into my hive frames.
How exactly do I use my smoker in this situation so it's of help to me? It's going to be dark up there. Can I use a regular flash light for this or will they freak out? I do have a head lamp with a red light on it that I could use. Once I get them all out, what can be done to assure no other bees will move in? Should I scrub everything with bleach water? Divemaster mentioned using almond extract and tea tree oil in another thread. Should I use this mix to spray the area when I'm done? I do not have a bee vac but do have a shop vac. Should I leave something behind to catch the late returning stragglers? I plan on doing this on Sunday after work. I figure I'd start around 7 pm.
Any advice you may have will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Yvonne
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For what it's worth here's my opinion. Be ready for it to take longer than you think. Second, is it clear below the hive? No shelving, or is it in a customer area? It's going to get messy with the honey.
Which brings me to my third suggestion. Start with the brood comb. The honey will just mess everything up before you get into the hard part. I would certainly ask about the smoker use because the smoke smell will linger. It won't be necessary if you're completely suited. A flashlight would be fine, a 500 W halogen light would be even better. You're going to have quite a few bees below the ceiling tile when you're done. Hopefully after dark they will return to the hive area and you can replace the ceiling tiles. There must be an entrance close by I would find that before starting the cut out and seal it up after dark. The next day you could open the area back up, Spray the remaining cluster with sugar water and shake them into a box. I would explain to the liquor store owner there will certainly be bees in the shop even after dark. Also most say not to rubber band honey into frames, but if it's going into a single deep or medium there won't be much chance of drowning. One last tip, have quite a few 5 gallon bucket's. One for good honeycomb one for junk home one for cleanup and one for trash. And have fun with it.
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Thank you so much psparr! All that is really helpful! I never would have thought about the honey drowning the bees. Makes sense though. The many bucket thing is great.
They're in a back room where the door can be closed and we do know where they're coming in from.
Thanks again!
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Starting at 7 PM, plan to be there until after midnight. Then plan to go back the next day to look for the queen. There is a 75% chance you will miss her the first day.
Light the smoker, walk in and lightly smoke the cluster. Take the smoker back outside. You may need to bring it back in a time or two. If it isn't left inside, the smell will dissipate quickly. Do NOT use the shop vac alone. It will kill every bee it takes in.
I disagree with removing the brood first. The honey will be on the outside, with the brood in the middle. Remove the honey first, then remove all the brood except two side by side combs about a foot long. If you haven't found the queen by then, she will return to the two combs when you leave the area.
DO NOT try to frame up the honey. Even in a single deep, you will drown many bees, besides making it harder for the hive to defend against robbers.
Use the red light, not the white light. Even better, if feasible, open the area to outside light.
Set the hive outside, near the entrance when finished. Allow them to go into the building to remove any honey that spilled. After a day or two, take the hive home after dusk. If you get the queen in a clip, leave her in it until the hive is in your apiary.
It is useless to try to seal all entrances or spray the area with chemicals to prevent another swarm. The only way to prevent it is to fill the void with insulation to the point they cannot hang comb
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I know I've heard from darn near everyone not to frame honey, but I've had no problem with it. And hive beetles in her area shouldn't be a problem.
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I've heard of people going into hives without smoke, too, but it's just a matter of time before they pay the price. Same thing with framing honey.
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I have done several cutouts and they are not a fun job.I hope you have help as I have done many alone and it is a very rough process!
Working over head isn't fun and you need a stable platform to work from.The helper can put the brood in the frames and handle that part as well as handing you what ever you need.I don't put any honey in the frames as you cannot control it due to its weight.After I got the bees in the box and to the yard I squeeze the honey out and feed it back to the bees in the quart jar method.Messing around with the honey in the frames is bad news.Everytime I did that I lost the hive to robbers,Small Hive Beetles,etc.
I treat a cut out just like a swarm I have just hived.So far all is well with the ones I did that way!Good Luck and it is a greaT LEARNING EXPERIENCE!
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A cut out is a great learning experience, but it is HARD work.
You MUST use a bee vac or you will be surrounded by really angry bees attacking you for hours. Once you start removing, smoke won't help keep them calm. I wouldn't bother.
My first cutout took all day [8 or so hours]. We had to go back two more days to make sure all the bees were out of the house [interior basement ceiling between basement and first floor.] The comb was super soft and a real pain to get into the frames, so an extra pair of hands to do that while you hand things down is a good idea.
Bring way more spray foam/insulation than you think you will need. WAY more.
Make sure you've got plastic for the floor and wherever you might walk because things get super messy really fast. Move all the furniture out of the room or cover it.
I did my cut out from the top of a ladder into a hole between joists above my head. I had to use a flashlight and that was hard because then one of my hands was busy. If you've got a head lamp, I'd use that so you can have both hands free for working.
Take motrin/ibuprofen or the like because you will probably get pinged through your suit.
Bring water, because it'll be warm in the ceiling and you'll need to hydrate/take breaks.
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Oh boy. It sounds like it'll take a lot longer than I thought. Maybe I should postpone until Tuesday morning when my weekend starts. They are towards the back of the store above a back room. I do plan on partitioning off the little hallway that leads to the store. There is just a bunch of crap in that room with a very stable wood shelving on which I plan to stand and can put some buckets and a hive body. I do not have a helper. lol I wish. I also really wish I had a bee vac but I don't. So I'll have to make do. I can take the smoker in and out. That shouldn't be a problem. I'll just cut the honey and put that in a bucket instead of trying to frame it like I will try to do with the brood. Lord I do hope I find the queen! There is no way I will be able to open this area up to outside light. I have a headlamp so I'll use that but when I was watching videos I was surprised how they didn't react at all to just regular light as I've read and heard they don't like it. My husband has one of those protected bulb lights you can hang in places like to work on your engine so I guess I'll use that.
Ok, thanks guys. Now that you properly have me worried, I'll just go for it. lol It'll be the first time wearing my suit as well. I do hope it's not too awkward. Thanks for all the advice!
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I have never done a cut out but if I were to do one I would not attempt to do it without a bee vac. You have a shop vac so just make it into a bee vac using a 5 gallon pail. You have until Tuesday so get to work.
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Lots of good advice here. Ditto on it taking much longer. Not only will you need water to drink you'll need it to keep your gloves and tools clean. Honey is slicky.
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I have never done a cut out but if I were to do one I would not attempt to do it without a bee vac. You have a shop vac so just make it into a bee vac using a 5 gallon pail. You have until Tuesday so get to work.
I totally agree with that the more I think about it. Generally, I prefer to make things as difficult as possible for myself when I do something for the first time :wink: but I think without a bee vac it will prolong my effort unnecessarily and I'll have a much better chance at getting the queen right away. So that's the plan now. I'll make a vac this weekend and will start the cut out on Tuesday morning.
One other thing. I get the feeling from talking to the guy that he's doing me a favor by getting me free bees. I'm not charging him. I'm basically doing him a favor and just doing it for the experience. How can I convey this to him without sounding like an ass?
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WALK AWAY....... NO, RUN.
IF YOU DO IT FREE, YOU WILL NEVER DO ANOTHER CUTOUT. HE IS VERY UNINFORMED, AND NEEDS AN EDUCATION DESPERATELY.
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Oh lord seriously? Is it going to be THAT bad? So please tell me. What do I tell him? How much would one charge? What else could he do but turn to me? There are no other beekeepers in this area. If I don't get them he will surely just kill them and foam everything in...
I've explained to him about the comb and the honey and the scents and returning swarms and mice and ants and such...he's also watched several videos online on cut outs...
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Before you do it call him and tell him that you want to go over everything one more time. Remind him, as a courtesy I'm not charging you, if someone were to charge you you'd be looking at anywhere from $400 to $1200 dollars. I've done maybe 3 free cutouts. I told them that and up front we had the understanding that they would do the repairs since I wasn't charging them anything. I actually had one person try to pay me. He's like, man I didn't realize the work that was involved.
If you think you've made a mistake tell him you think it's going to be to big of a task or you've bit off more than you can chew, ect. Are you going to do the repairs as well? For free? If so I believe you're making a big mistake. I've heard folks talk about cut outs and mention the need for a contract. That contract would lay anything that goes wrong in the other person's lap. You may work all day and then get sued for it.
If you're looking for genetics go out and buy some nucs here there and everywhere. Good luck
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You will be in full suit in the heat for 3 to 8 hours. You will be working above your head with honey dripping on you. You will get 5 to 50 stings. You will get a bucket of dirty honey that has to be fed back to your bees, possibly causing a robbing war. If you don't get the queen, you will go back the next day to find a cluster of 3 to 6 lb. of bees in the cavity. With no vac, how will you get them? If you get her, she may stay or she may take the bees and abscond. I did 2 on Saturday, 2 weeks ago. One of them, I went back Sunday and vacced the cluster One stayed, one left. I charged 300 for one and 460 for the other. After you get them home, you may find that you just brought chalkbrood, sac brood, afb, efb, or something else into your apiary to spread to your hives. It is late July. You will buy a lot of sugar if you get them heavy enough for winter.
You do all this for "A CHANCE" of getting a package of bees that you can buy in the spring for 100 dollars and get a guaranteed queen and be disease free.
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Yvonne - now that you're good and worried, know that I learned more about myself doing my cutout than I did about bees. I took dozens and dozens of pings through my suit [mostly shoulders and thighs where the material pulled tight]. There was a moment when my head was surrounded by smoke and 10K angry noisy bees attacking that I was pretty freaked and wondered if it was too late to run away. I chose not to panic and I finished the job with my husband assisting. It was one of those defining moments.
But I will NEVER do another cutout without a bee vac. [We ended up using a shop vac halfway through. Killed all the bees we used it on.] The bees we were able to salvage with the brood comb into boxes were super upset. By nothing short of a miracle I found and caged the queen in the box of comb. We took a box of comb and bees home but the colony never really recovered. This is not a good way to get 'free' bees.
We charged the client $300 for the removal and basic cleanup. The repair was extra and a completely separate job. The client said it was worth every penny.
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If it is just to get the bees why bother since you can just buy a package and sit at home.
Question!How are you going to get the bees in a box? A vacum is the only way and they will be hundreds of bees flying around.
I REALLY THINK YOU BETTER THINK THIS OVER VERY CAREFULLY AS YOUR NOT PREPARED FOR THE JOB!You Need Help and a Vacum setup ,smoke is usless when you start to cut into the nest the bees start to defend the hive big time.When you are looking up the veil will contact your face and the bees will get you!Been there and done that !
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When you are looking up the veil will contact your face and the bees will get you
That's about the dang truth!
Now I remember! Do you wear glasses? Make a sweatband to catch all that sweat before it goes down across the front of your lenses - time and time again.
Who said cut outs wasn't a lot of fun? :)
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Ditto and ditto on the beevac. I have done 100s of cutouts. By my self and with help. By your self it takes almost twice as long. I have done jobs with no vac. Very very few. You have to go slower and try to bring bees with the comb. That makes it sting time. There are several vac designs on web that can be made in one night with minimal parts. Make one. Make sure you open the are as big as possible the bees will run. Use bee-gone to keep bees from traveling to far. Buythe good smelling stuff so you ddon't choke your self. If you don't have any go Walmart and buy their 8 ounce bottle of pure almond oil and get bottle of teatree oil. Add two drops of teatree oil to the almond oil and shake it up. Use a spray bottle to spray lightly in area you want them to not go in. Use cotton balls and spray balls and push into ajacent cavities less is more.when your finished and get ready to seal up entrance you can use the oil to chase them to entrance. Place the hive on stand outside at the entrance to get the workers coming back then pickup the next night.
John
Google them you can get them at Amazon, and other places. I pay a little more because the snap-on dealer comes to our shop.
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WALK AWAY....... NO, RUN.
Well I think you are opening up a can of worms if you charge on your first cut out. If you charge then you take on an obligated and most likely you are not prepared and it results in a flop with damage to the structure. I don't think your first cut out should be to get free bees. I think it should be for the experience and education of the process that you are paying for with your time (maybe some money in equipment).
As I said, I have no experience with a cut out but I could estimate the repairs and get paid for what I know well. I also know how to keep the repairs to a minimum which is the greater cost of ridding the bees from the structure.
If I didn't know the person I would get his/her signature on a statement that says, "I will make an attempt to remove the bees and I am not responsible for damages. There is no guarantee that I will be successful in removing the colony."
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That's where I'm at acebird. I have no experience doing this at all and if I were to charge him, I would really feel responsible if something went amok. He understands that I'm a new beekeeper and this will be my first time attempting such a thing. I'm not doing it to get free bees or anything. I want to do it to learn more about bees and get experience working with "wild" bees. I also just feel bad for the guy because they're now showing up going through his store and there's really no other option for him than to just kill them. Which I don't want either.
This is an old building and removing the panels in the ceiling to get too them won't be very difficult. Working in a tight area for an extended time will be, yes. I understand this. I didn't realize it will take as long as you all say but I understand that now. I've mentioned that I have thought about the whole thing and I will not attempt this without a bee vac. I will build one this weekend. My husband is a carpenter and contractor so if repairs are needed, he can do that. But I don't believe the repairs will be that involved at all.
The owner and I have talked, but not really in depth about either of our expectations, so that's what will need to happen first of all. I'll call him today to have a sit down with him and outline exactly what I plan on doing, what could and may happen, how far I will go with clean up and what he will need to do as well.
I'm sorry guys. It's been a long week already. I wish I could stay longer but have to get to work. I really really do appreciate each and everyone of your words of advice and experience. I put my hubby on building me a bee vac today.
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My take on cutouts.
1) do not try to save any honey. Scrap it all. If you really think it's not been sprayed, then feed it to the bees unless there is some way to actually keep it clean. Usually it's covered in dirt and sawdust by the time you're done.
2) do not try to save ALL the brood. Go for the big chunks. Figure on trying to save 50%. Try to be sure to get some emerging brood (to quickly repopulate) and some open brood (in case you miss the queen and to anchor them to the new hive). If you try to save it all you often don't have enough bees to cover it and the SHB or the wax moths take over.
3) do not use a bee vac. I've probably killed more bees with a vacuum than anything else. If you insist, then take precautions not to overheat them and to cushion their crash landing int he vacuum. I just don't use them. Piles of sticky, overheated, dead bees are just too depressing...
4) keep an eye out for the queen. Any cluster of bees is suspect but especially if there is a tight knot in the middle of the cluster. Shake or brush all the bees into the new hive.
5) have a bucket of water to wash out the brush as it will get very sticky. Have a bucket with a lid for the honey. Another bucket for empty comb. Another bucket for scrapped brood. A hairclip queen catcher for if you see the queen. Some lemongrass essential oil. Put four drops in the new hive and ten or so on the outside of the new hive. If you have some QMP (Queen Mandibular Pheromone) use some of that. If it's the PsuedoQueen plastic kind, use a full tube or at least half in the new hive. If it's in the form of "queen juice" (old queens in alcohol) use four drops of the alcohol in the new hive. Have some pinesol to spray in the old location to cover pheromones there. I agree you should charge in the long run, but it is hard to honestly charge money for a service when you've never done it before. But as Idee says, once you realize how much work it is, you'll see why you should charge...
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The bee vac should be constructed like a cyclone dust collector and there will be no wall for them to smash against. The top should be clear so you can see if the bees are clogging the LARGE screen area of the vacuum source. If the colony is large then it will take multiple emptying of the collection container. Where to put them needs to be considered.
A bee can fly about 35 mph so the air velocity only needs to be about 40-50. A standard shop vac is no good because at the end of the hose is a sharp 90 degree turn that the bees will smack into and squish. Do not make your collection container like a shop vac. Make it like a cyclone where the air flow spins at the top of the container and slows down towards the bottom.
For those that use a bee vac do you concentrate on the nurse bees or the flying foragers? Not knowing I would go for the nurse bees and not the air borne bees. What say you?
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Ace,
Use the bee vac for the field bees and the guard bees. The nurse bees will stay on the comb and care for the larvae.
Once the guard bees and field bees are gone, the hive usually calms down.
Jim
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MT Bee Girl, we all wish you the best of luck.., keep us posted.
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Yes! Best of luck. My cutout was hard, but one of the best experiences I've had. Keep us posted!
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Ace,
Use the bee vac for the field bees and the guard bees. The nurse bees will stay on the comb and care for the larvae.
Once the guard bees and field bees are gone, the hive usually calms down.
Jim
Well that makes sense. I didn't think of it that way but what you say makes perfect sense.
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Yes, that totally makes sense. Thank you all soooo much for your time and advice and the well wishes! I will let you all know how it goes. I'm talking with the owner tomorrow morning.
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One other thing. Good leather gloves to handle the comb. Makes it a lot easier not getting stung in the fingers while handling the comb.
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Yeah about that. I spoke with a removal guy from MS who told me to buy some of those heavy thick chemical use type gloves. Which I did but it seems women don't use them oftem for I found only mediums and larges. lol He said to use those bacause honey would be everywhere and the leather ones would get ruined and sticky and when they get mad they'll poke me right through the leather.
Also, how often exactly do I need to clean out this vacuum? They'll get hot and hungry in there right? My hubby built it yesterday. :)
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Mt beegirl
MICROFLEX DURA FLOCK DFK-608 FLOCK LINED DISPOSABLE NITRILE GLOVES, these are the gloves I use. They are thick enough the bees don't sting thru. Only stings is if I squeeze a bee. You can feel detail your hands don't sweat as much. I use two to three pair per job. Only problem is they will rip when you catch a nail. When I get honey covered I just wash my hands with gloves on and keep going. The neutral green color the bees seem to ignore. I use them exclusively because they are that great. Call a mechanic shop and see if they have a snap-on or any tool rep. And get there no. To see if they care them. I get them for about 18-22.00 per box of fifty. I use the large size because they run little on the small side. I have small short finger hands. You may use the med. Once you try them iknow you will love them. You will use them for everything around house. I even wash and hang dry ones in tub and reuse until they rip
They worth their weight in gold.
John
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Awesome. Thank you John! I'll look into getting those.
Yvonne
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Done and done. lol I am pooped. lol I started setting up at 9 this morning but forgot to look what time I actually started. Probably 9:30 or so. They were hived and the cracks were sealed around 7 pm. I found the queen by sheer stupid luck! They are very small bees with very elongated abdomens. Many very black bees and the queen is also black and super beautiful! I just have to go back tomorrow and clean up a little. I'll post pictures and the full story tomorrow afternoon. :cheesy: I would soooooooo do that again!!!! For money! lol :wink: Incredible experience.
Yvonne
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Good job!
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Congratulations. Glad all went well. Now you understand all the warnings.
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I can't help but giggle, been there done that. Lot of work.
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Great job Yvonne. Nine and 1/2 hours so far. How did the hubbie's bee vac work for you? What is the most time consuming part? I can't imagine being in a suit for over 9 hours even if it was in October let alone July/August. It would be soaked and stuck to me like a wet T-shirt.
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I was thinking about you all day. I'm so glad it went well! Can't wait for details.
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All right! it has been a very good week for you. Now you have twice as many hives.
JS
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Great news and you now found out what I did at my first and yes I charge now too. One of the cutouts I did also yielded very small and dark bees with a almost black queen and they are gentile as heck and booming in their new home. Took several stings getting them out of their tire where they set up housekeeping....
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Congratulations. One for the memories.
After 9 hours, the home owner should be offering to pay something.
Jim
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Thanks everyone for the congratulations! That was one heck of an experience. It took me about 3 hours to get past all the honey, when I finally reached some pollen. Then the brood. That was definitely the most time consuming part. Cutting off part and then trying to put that into the frames with the rubber bands. That took a while. I did try to use my lid as a little table but at that point it had so much honey and dead and stuck bees on it, it was really unusable. lol I had several knives with black handles of course and I used black plastic paper so at first I kept losing the knives and misplacing them. lol Next time, bright orange handles. lol The vacuum Bob built me worked great! I definitely could not have done it without that. It went on for a long time lol and then after about 6 hours the whole thing just seemed futile. lol Like it would never end. Like they would never stop returning through the gaps. lol I know you guys said not to save all the brood but I did try to save most of it. That probably prolonged everything. lol I got stung many times mostly when I kneeled down onto a bee or when one was on the back of my suit and I had to squat down to work the comb. I had a big swollen lump on thigh when I got home and I could feel the venom in my veins that night. lol When I finally got to the last little combs, I was so relieved. Finally I saw an end in sight. I did end up using some smoke because they just wouldn't stop returning. I figured the queen was AWOL at that point. I drove them out and then sealed everything from inside. Thank the lord the place is a dump anyway so my bad foaming job really isn't that noticeable. lol And the owner didn't care how it looked anyway. The smoke smell didn't last long. Just last night and was gone by today. On my last dump of my vac, I definitely waited too long and there were many dead and dying bees in it. I felt so horrible. That was really awful and I know it was my fault for not emptying sooner. There was no sign by the bees that the queen was in one of the hive bodies and there were dead and dying bees running away on the ground. Clusters of confused and upset little critters. Lord that was horrible. I carefully looked at all the clusters on the ground and holy lord Jesus, THERE SHE WAS! I honestly couldn't believe my eyes and thought I was seeing things. I scooped her up with some attendants into a clip and put her into the hive. She looked very stressed and must have gone through hell and back. I was going to keep her in the clip for a day but seeing her condition, I just let her go in. They were all very happy to have her though and immediately started nasanoving. It was really like a wave. It started at the top, took about 5 minutes to get the signal to the front porch and then the ones on the outside side walls started as well. I smoked the rest off from under the outside roof and after a while they all found their way to their new hive. She is very beautiful long and big and black. Oh, as I was removing comb I noticed the bees very very small and elongated and then as I removed comb and got in deeper, the bees seemed to get bigger and there were also some blonds and such. They're very interesting looking. Even the drones were smaller and longer. Anyway, I am so glad I did that. It was super hard work. Today I felt like I had worked out for hours which I did I guess lol because my quads were really sore from standing and squatting standing and squatting. lol Really I only took a break for maybe 10 minutes while my hubby stopped by and I ate my sandwich. I will definitely charge for it next time. Bob's all into it. He says I can be on his contractors insurance and I'll cut out and he'll repair. lol
The owner did want to pay me. He wrote me a check for $200 which I did not take. I said I would do it for free so that's what I'm sticking with. I'm not gonna change my mind just because things got hard. He also owns the Two Bit Saloon in town where we eat sometimes so I told him if he wanted to buy us a dinner there one night, that'd be great. He agreed to that.
Yes, it's been a good week! lol And to think I had just one hive last year and now I have six! lol 1 overwintered one, 2 nucs I purchased this spring, 1 split I did, the swarm, and the liquor bees. I could use a few more. :wink: lol
Thanks for thinking of me yesterday Robin. I felt it. :smile:
http://s284.photobucket.com/user/MTBeeGirl/media/First%20Cut%20Out%20July%202016/image.jpg1_zpsegimkltg.jpg.html?sort=2&o=0
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Learning the first time I would have payed just for the experience. Looks great! Free bees and honey. A win win!
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Now that you know we weren't lying, let me give you one more tip. At one time, I was working full time and doing 40 to 80 cutouts annually. Don't start something you don't want to get buried in. You will have more calls then you ever imagined.
BUT IT'S STILL FUN. :cheesy:
PS. Come work for me, Psparr. I'll give you a package of ""free"" bees for each 9 1/2 hours you put in, and you won't have to pay me. :tongue:
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PS. Come work for me, Psparr. I'll give you a package of ""free"" bees for each 9 1/2 hours you put in, and you won't have to pay me. :tongue:
That's a good one, "free bees". LMAO
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Yvonne! I am so happy for you!!
Intense, right? That moment when you realize you're in the middle of ANGRY.
Your pictures were fabulous. I'm super happy you found the queen. I found my queen pretty much the same way, but mine was in the box all the time. I caged her and put her back, but they never nasanov-ed. It's awesome that yours did and you got to watch them get their act together. I hope these bees are really productive for you.
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Now that you know we weren't lying, let me give you one more tip. At one time, I was working full time and doing 40 to 80 cutouts annually. Don't start something you don't want to get buried in. You will have more calls then you ever imagined.
BUT IT'S STILL FUN. :cheesy:
PS. Come work for me, Psparr. I'll give you a package of ""free"" bees for each 9 1/2 hours you put in, and you won't have to pay me. :tongue:
Well I wouldn't want your bees, but untreated survivor stock to boost the genetics in my yard. I'd take the 9 1/2 hrs. work any day of the week for that. It's all in how you look at it.
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Yvonne, Was there an LED bulb in the shop light? It appeared as though you cleaned the comb of bees and then cut it out. Is that the normal way to proceed? What do you think would speed the process up? If you had frames that were split in half and hinged at the top bar do you think it would help? What if you had a tool that they use for top bar hives instead of a kitchen knife to reach in and cut the comb loose from the wood?
iddee, you are doing 40-80 a week? You gotta love the heat.
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Congrats Yvonne!!!!
Like anything.....with practice and experience you will develop a rhythm and a comfort level. If you were to rewind this same job and perform it over again in a year I bet that 9.5 will turn into 4-5 hours. I also had a horrible bee die off experience in a vac and took some time considering the cause...and I think it tends to result from 3 things.... overheating, Honey coated bees,and "bounce" on entering the catch basket.
1. Overheating you can combat by dumping the container often.....
2. Honey....You end up sucking up honey coated bees and they roll down the inside of hose...coating the inside of the hose with honey....so the longer you vac the more honey is in the hose and as the bees tumble down...even the ones that didn't start off coated become coated in the hose. So for long removals that are messy with honey try and limit the number of honey coated bees you suck up (impossible I know) and when you empty the catch basket rinse out the hose if at all possible.
3. Bounce.....really work on suction control just barely enough suction to pull a bee off a surface...its slower but safer. I built my own vac from the plans on beesource and used it for 6 months with mixed results....then I splurged and spent some money on a colorado bee rescue vac and the design with the pegboard diffuser makes the bees have zero bounce when they enter the catch basket and my mortality rate is down to 1% or less.
Every removal is different and is a learning experience...keep it up and enjoy yourself ;-)
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Congrats Yvonne!!!!
3. Bounce.....really work on suction control just barely enough suction to pull a bee off a surface...its slower but safer. I built my own vac from the plans on beesource and used it for 6 months with mixed results....then I splurged and spent some money on a colorado bee rescue vac and the design with the pegboard diffuser makes the bees have zero bounce when they enter the catch basket and my mortality rate is down to 1% or less.
Two things are wrong with the design; 1 the intake should not point down at the pile of bees in the bottom of the bucket. I don't know why most designs are like this. The intake should come from the side of the bucket creating a swirl with nothing for the bees to bounce into. 2 the exhaust (the air going to the shop vac) should come from the center and be protected with #8 mesh which is much larger in area then the dia of the hose. This can be done by using a second bucket cutting it 2-3 inches from the top and mounting it to the top of the first bucket.
As long as the shop vac is not turned off the bees in the bucket are getting fresh air and should not overheat. A couple puffs of smoke to the intake hose should keep them calm but don't get the smoker to close because it could suck in sparks.
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Ace, doing 40 to 80 annually during my peak years is a million miles away from doing that many weekly now, at 71 y/o.
Psparr, if you really want survivors, check this out.
www.waynesbees.com
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Thanks guys. Idk Robin, mine weren't that angry. There was a point where I was covered with them but I felt very safe in my suit. I feel like I've been in angrier crowds. lol
I sure would be happy if I could do this once a week and make $400 or more. With clean up the following day I probably spent a total of 12-13 hours. I have to spend a lot of time with stupid people at my work in order to make that. lol Honestly, I'd rather work this hard, get some bees and honey, and stay and work at home. lol
I know exactly what I did wrong. I simply waited too long to empty. I had put some scrap towels in the bottom of the vac to prevent the bounce and the first few times I emptied it, all the bees were safe and happy and healthy. That makes sense about sucking up honey though and clogging things up over time. Rinsing it out is a good idea. They just wouldn't stop coming back in so I sucked them up way too long and filled the bucket up too much. Someone in my northern bee group on fb mentioned something about a robo vac which is a design for larger hives like this one was, but I have yet to look into that. I'll check out that colorado vac too Jeff.
So how do you exactly work it at the very end? When you have all the comb cut out and they're still coming back in? How do you seal it without smoking them out? Do you spray something on the outside and then seal? That stupid foam bottle the owner bought me, you had to hold up side down to spray which was almost impossible to do to get the crack at the top of the ceiling with the ceiling, ie roof right there. My husband says professionals have a sprayer that allows better coverage but they're expensive and he doesn't have that. If someone could explain the steps at the very end of the process of removal, that'd be great. :)
My suction control was awesome. Bob built it so I had a little slider piece on the top where I could control that. He totally improved that design from what we saw online. The guy in the video had to use his hand to cup the hole to control it. This way I had both hands to use for work.
Btw, divemaster, that almond spray stuff wasn't all that great. Very very temporary. lol I did forget about putting it on cotton balls and stuffing it with the scent in places though. That would have worked better than just spraying I bet.
Acebird, I have no idea about those top bar items and tools you're talking about so I have no idea. There was one of those spiraly bulbs in the light. No hallogen. I'm not sure about normal procedure but the videos I watched, they'd suck the bees off the comb and then remove it. Once I got to the pollen and brood, I left the nurse bees on the comb while cutting it and moving it. That reminds me, I was wondering how long brood can survive without bees covering them?
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Look at this:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/212470691/top-bar-hive-tool-collection-by?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_everything_else-mid-other&utm_custom1=3273fde6-46a6-4401-b13d-8d4bc2de7ab2&gclid=CJyvg9vKmM4CFUFkhgodfgYF7g
It allows you to slide the tool along side the wood to cut out the comb. I didn't know there was such a thing as a bee herder!
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I'm not sure about normal procedure but the videos I watched, they'd suck the bees off the comb and then remove it. Once I got to the pollen and brood, I left the nurse bees on the comb while cutting it and moving it. That reminds me, I was wondering how long brood can survive without bees covering them?
Mind you I have never done this so my idea is pie in the sky but if you were to wear rubber gloves to start and had a clam shell frame with alternate vertical wires you could cut the comb the shape of the frame and place it into the clam shell upside down (with the top bars on the bottom) and slowly close it up allowing the bees to get out of the way of the wires. Then you can put the frame in the box with all the bees on the frame. The majority of the bees on the frame should be young bees. The older bees and foragers are already air borne when you first open the hive.
Any bee that gets smashed by the shop vac is going to blow pheromones everywhere in the room. So my thought is to use it at the end of the extraction not the beginning.
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MT Bee Girl, I meant to ask you this and I keep forgetting. Can you tell me the bearing of these combs? They built them at a slight angle to the ceiling joists. I am curious as to the direction from magnetic North.
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Yvonne - I was not able to get all my bees out before I sprayed. We used the good spray foam that you hold however you need to. I got as many bees out as I could, then just sprayed what I had to to finish. Many bees got caught in the foam but there was nothing I could do. In my cut out, the bees were coming from the outside of the house, along a large channel between the siding and the foundation right in to the space between the joists. There was a LOT of space to foam up. I went through 6 or so cans of it the first day. We went back the next day to finish spraying around the entire foundation of the house to close it up from future swarms. [Bad 1960s building techniques.]
If you love cut outs, you should definitely keep doing it. There's a demand and you're clearly gifted at it. Go for it! Won't be long until you can quit the other job.
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""So how do you exactly work it at the very end? When you have all the comb cut out and they're still coming back in? How do you seal it without smoking them out?""
I place my catch hive outside where they go in at, then spray the cavity with beequick. It runs all of them out and they find their family in the hive.
Robo Vac
https://beevac.com/
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Brian, those are some neat tools. They remind me of when we used to go to rendezvous back in the day. You know the 1840's trappers reenactments? Idk, for me it seems like it'd be something else to misplace in the chaos. lol The rubber band and frame thing worked pretty good. I had set up the frames with 3 rubber bands on each side the night before but I had put them too close together so with my sticky fingers, it was difficult to separate them and move them over to the comb. I think next time I just need to separate them more when I set it up. I think also the lid as a table would have worked great had I left it out of the way at first and then moved it over to where I needed it once I got to the brood. The bee herder tool is pretty cool. Who knew? lol But again, idk, there are probably easier ways. I'm not really one for gadgets. A good pair of gloves is really all you need to touch the comb with bees on it. I'm looking into getting those that divemaster described. I had bought some heavy dishwashing gloves and some heavy duty chemical use gloves which where too big. They stung the heck out of me with the former. I put the latter over those and that was a god's sent! I had no issues with them other than slippage, being too big. I'll have to check the direction of the comb next time I head into that town. It seems to me though from knowing the area that it was definitely facing N/NW. I'll check and let you know.
Robin, I too had foamed in several bees that were in the way. Feels bad but you gotta do what you gotta do. This place I worked on was also a very old construction. My husband said he would have helped me had he had his own bee suit which TOTALLY surprised me. He's really pretty brave. The first time we went and picked up a nuc, he was the only one standing there without a bee jacket or veil on waiting on me. Newbees were coming up to him asking him what they should do. lol People always look for him to be in charge for some reason. lol He is very confident and looks like he's in charge. lol I think I'll get him his own suit next time they're on sale. I'm getting new cards made up and am definitely adding bee removals on it. Not sure about the demand here in MT but hopefully there will be once my name gets out there. I'd be totally into that. I really don't like people thAt much. lol ;)
Jim, looks like I need to get some beequick for my toolbox then. I smelled some beegone, I think it was at Murdock's, which sells some very limited beekeeping supply for very expensive, and it totally smelled like that almond spray I had made. Beequick must work better at driving them out then. I'll google it, read about it, and get some. Thanks! I'll watch that video on the link when I get a chance. Thanks for the link!
So what about how long can brood survive without bees covering it? Still curious about that.
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Robo Vac
https://beevac.com/
Right around 7 minutes he shows a split frame but it is hinged on the bottom bar which seems wrong to me. As you cut out the comb you hold it with one hand at the bottom. In order to put the comb in the split frame hinged at the bottom you have to change hands and grab the frame with the other hand or as he showed lay the frame down flat and lay the comb on one side. Isn't that going to crush bees that are on the comb? If the frame was hinged at the top bar you could set it in a nest upside down with it open in a V shape and just place the comb upside down with out any re-positioning of hands and simply close the frame without crushing any bees. If I ever attempt a cut out I think I will try it that way. I also will make a gadget something like a frame grabber with more dexterity to grab the comb with all the bees instead of vacuuming them off first. That way the bees and the comb will stay together. The gadget is so I don't pinch bees grabbing the comb with heavy gloves on.
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Look at this sketch.
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=27380.new#new
That is what I am talking about.
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Eggs can Last a while. Young larvae will be ok a couple hours at 80? or so. Anything under that and they need bees for warmth.
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Look at this sketch.
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=27380.new#new
That is what I am talking about.
There's a video? I missed that. I'll have my weekend coming up and will take a closer look. It's been crazy busy around here. I meant to tell you, I had taken a fish fillet knife and used that to cut the comb. That link about the frame is very cool. At first I thought it was two regular frames until I realized it was one, split in half. That is a really great idea actually. I like it. And it'd be easy enough to just staple it together. Thanks for showing me that.
I'll have to look at that comb grapper thing you're talking about. I'd be afraid it could fall apart as you're holding it. I guess it would depend on the temp too though. And you'd have to hold it on the bottom right, so you'd be flipping the direction of the comb when putting it in or else it would be very awkward putting it into the frames. Unless you had one of those flip open frames I guess. I would cut a piece of comb off of most attached places, and when I knew it was ready to come off fully, I kinda let it fall onto my flat hand. I'm not sure how you're "supposed" to do it. lol I don't think I killed many bees that way at all. I think more bees got killed just drowning in all the honey that was everywhere. On the walls, the ground, the ceiling, the vacuum tube, my little table. Honey everywhere. Seriously. lol
Eggs can Last a while. Young larvae will be ok a couple hours at 80? or so. Anything under that and they need bees for warmth.
Thank you!
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I used the sandwich frames, "as we call them" for years. They work well during the removal. I quit using them and went back to the rubber bands because of the "after" work. The bees will attach the comb to the frames and cut the rubber bands. Then you just remove them. The sandwich frames have to be moved to the outside and removed when broodless. "Takes months". Then they are full of honey, which has to be taken care of. Overall, the rubber bands are much less work.
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A friend staples chicken wire to one side of a frame and has another section of chicken wire cut and ready for the other side. When he cuts comb off, he lays it in the prepared frame and staples chicken wire to the other side. After the bees have fastened the comb to the frame, he removes the wire from both sides. I have not tried it, but he says it works well.
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I quit using them and went back to the rubber bands because of the "after" work.
For me I am more interested in reducing the beginning work not the after work. Get in and get out with the least amount of mess and time. It might also be an advantage to me if I didn't have to suck all the bees off the comb because it might transfer the queen by accident. I doubt if I could find her anyway. I do agree there would be after work to retrieve the frames for another cut out.
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when you make the robo vac. I would recommend that you make multiple bottoms. I made multiple bottoms and started leaving theem on the hives. the bees seem to like that the entrance is round and are able to defend the entrance better. I even made disc like the ones for nucs. I can turn the disc to have a qween excluder for when I first bring the hive home. then a robber diverter, and even a moving screen. this ramped base also serves a use if I don't get the hive positioned just right to to keep driving rain from filling the bottom. the bees will reduce the hole to the size they like. I now just make robo vac bases for most of my hives and I now use the calorado vac setup.
john
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Holy crap, guys! I've been having the bees clean out my wax inside their hives from when I crushed and strained so I was exchanging that out just now. I just drove up to this liquor store hive that I had cut out, and my queen was right on the ground in front of the entry of the hive! They're on a concrete slap so she was on the concrete. She was surrounded by about 10 attendants who were cleaning her. She was just sitting there. Definitely alive. I picked her up gently with my hive tool and put her on the top bars of her hive. She sat there for a few minutes getting cleaned and then slowly meandered down between the frames. WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT MEAN? Lol I'm a little freaked out right now.
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It means you are really lucky. :grin:
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It doesn't mean anything bad like they want to replace her or that she wants to swarm?
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I do not recall if you found her and put her in the box.
If you did then you may have had multiple queens. Not uncommon, They say about 20% of the hives have multiple queens, usually due to supersedures.
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Yes, I had found her and put her in the box. Hopefully it's just what you suggest. I thought though that queens don't leave the hive after they've been mated?
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Yes, I had found her and put her in the box. Hopefully it's just what you suggest. I thought though that queens don't leave the hive after they've been mated?
Remember. Bees can't read.
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Only to swarm. They will sometimes fly off the frames during an inspection but they usually go back to the hive. It is possible that she was only oriented to the old hive and took off while you were working on the hive. She would go back to the old location if it was close by.
Jim
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That is true psparr. I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read. lol
Very good point Jim. I never thought of how she was orientated to the old hive. That one is a good 5 miles away. I did look into the hive yesterday to see how things are going and I did not see her. I saw all my other queens but she was the only one I couldn't see. Maybe she took off during inspection like you say and got lost and her attendants led her back to the front door and I happened to come upon her and them and showed her the way back in? Ok. Yeah. I'm going with that. ;) lol I AM very lucky today! lol Thank you! I feel a lot better now!
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5 miles is a long way for a queen to find her way back to the old hive.
Jim
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Yeah that's what I meant when I said she got lost and they led her back to my hive. Lol I'm glad it's far. I'd hate to do all that again! For free. lol Who knows I guess. Main thing is, she's home and now I know she's home.
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Worse case scenario;
She's on her mating fling. The drone congregational area is half way between locations. You moved her before she was fully mated. She flies around in circles during the mating event. She returns home the only way she knows. Home has been moved.
I'm calling the police..,
Honestly, Jim's probably hit the nail on the head. Multiple queens.
Do a hive inspection, locate the queens. Observe their behavior for about 30 minutes. If you see one of them grooming a drone then that's the one that isn't mated - get rid of her!
you didn't believe that did you?
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Do a hive inspection, locate the queens. Observe their behavior for about 30 minutes. If you see one of them grooming a drone then that's the one that isn't mated - get rid of her!
you didn't believe that did you?
:cheesy:
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Here's my update. I finally got to look in today and did not see one queen. Not even two queens. lol What I did see was a capped queen cell. I suspect I injured her with the vacuum and they're replacing her. Maybe she was outside of the hive enjoying her last sunny day? I did see uncapped larvae and lots of brood. I'm just going to let them bee. I'm sure they can figure it out. They're looking good though otherwise. Definitely building and growing.
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keep a eye on it. They could be wanting swarm. With all the damage caused by doing the removal can and have caused swarming of a new Hive.. JOhnn