Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DOWN UNDER BEEKEEPING => Topic started by: SB-Russ on April 16, 2015, 04:40:27 am
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So I tried again to see if I could find a way to make hives cheaper than buying a Ready To Assemble kit from a beekeeping supplier, and it doesn't seem possible, or for a $1-$2 saving, not worth it?
While I don't have prices from a specialist timber supplier, and am just using Bunnings DAR Pine prices, it still seems odd just how expensive buying your own timber is. For example, to make a half-size 8-frame box, I'd require 1.72lm x 125mm wide (and what's standard timber width here - 22mm?). The DAR Pine Bunnings have that I can get the closest match to is 1.8lm x 405mm x 19mm. That would get 3 boxes, with some waste 10 & ends when ripped to size. That piece is $43.94, or $14.65 per box. But then I'd have to rebate the sides and frame rail before it matched an RTA box. I can get an RTA box for $15.80, which is probably thicker as well I assume, and machine sized properly so they all fit neatly, whereas my hand-made efforts probably won't align as well. For $1.15 saving each box, but considerable more effort, it doesn't seem worth it.
Is anyone in Australia making their own hives from shop-bought timber, in retail quantities, and making a significant saving? I see our US friends saying they are making boxes for 1/2 - 1/3 the retail cost. Is the timber market just that much different here?
I'm not sure whether to pursue trying to find cheaper timber, or just give up and accept the beekeeping suppliers prices as a good deal?
Thanks.
Russell.
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I've mentioned elsewhere that, for me at least, assembling the hive is the most time consuming aspect. It takes me literally (I've timed it) 5 minutes to cut and route a dressed piece
of timber (145mm wide). The squaring, gluing, and stapling, and painting (three coats) takes me longer.
I buy my 145x19 (I think 145x21 would be about the same price) for 4.77 l/m, so that's about $10 for an Ideal box. To buy $17 RTA here. I save even more on full depths.
If I was only ever planning on having a few hives and had the extra cash I may not bother. If I had no wood working power tools, or the willingness to get some and
learn how to use them then I wouldn't bother either. That's just me though.
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Yeah I guess you're right that the time to rip & route is minimal once you're setup, if setup correctly. Finding economical timber is my big issue.
So 19mm is sufficient width?
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Might be worth giving Neil from Zenith Timber a call (07) 5546 9777
Don't quote me on this, but from memory he was making up weatherproof ply 5 frame NUCs for $10 ea. All RTA and would need a coat of paint.
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Yeah I guess you're right that the time to rip & route is minimal once you're setup, if setup correctly. Finding economical timber is my big issue.
So 19mm is sufficient width?
My bees have never had a problem with it, and I've never had anyone give me a good reason why it is insufficient.
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I have a mate that has a shed full of wood working machines. We are looking at cypress pine to make boxes from. We can get truck loads from Cecil plains 1hr west of Toowoomba and make boxes for about $8 each timber cost. Deepest box we can make without joining is a WSP so we are looking at using them and halfs or ideals for supers, depending on the supply widths from the mill.
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If you have any spares Dave, I'd certainly be interested in some. I'm still undecided on what size I want to go with.
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If you have any spares Dave, I'd certainly be interested in some. I'm still undecided on what size I want to go with.
Me too, we are really hoping to go commercial within the next couple of years. From what I hear there is quite a few that use full depths as brood boxes and are converting to WSP boxes as supers. They are just cutting down their fulls and using the cuts as lids.
Halfs and ideals have a following but mainly with the older generations downsizing weight for lifting. Mostly the people I know outside of wanting lighter supers are people that sell comb.
I think a mix of supers is the best way, as much as it could be a pain in the bum, a half depth super will fill on the downside of autumn as opposed to a half filled full depth.
Ill certainly be letting a people know when I have cypress boxes for sale, there is a bit of interest. it wont be for a few months yet as we expand or hive numbers and our business.
Dave
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I have a mate that has a shed full of wood working machines. We are looking at cypress pine to make boxes from. We can get truck loads from Cecil plains 1hr west of Toowoomba and make boxes for about $8 each timber cost. Deepest box we can make without joining is a WSP so we are looking at using them and halfs or ideals for supers, depending on the supply widths from the mill.
Do you currently use white cypress for your boxes? I suspect you don't need to paint them ?
I find it much easier to get various types of timber in widths suitable for ideals more so than full depth. I suspect it's similarly easier with WSP and manley.
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I am about to start cutting out supers and can do it for less then $10 a box one thing you need to check on when getting prices is the grade, anything above merchant grade your wasting money .19 mm is plenty but if a few guys get together you can get a pack of 240 x 19 merchant grade.
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I have a mate that has a shed full of wood working machines. We are looking at cypress pine to make boxes from. We can get truck loads from Cecil plains 1hr west of Toowoomba and make boxes for about $8 each timber cost. Deepest box we can make without joining is a WSP so we are looking at using them and halfs or ideals for supers, depending on the supply widths from the mill.
Do you currently use white cypress for your boxes? I suspect you don't need to paint them ?
I find it much easier to get various types of timber in widths suitable for ideals more so than full depth. I suspect it's similarly easier with WSP and manley.
I have a few cypress boxes that I bought S/H. Not sure what cypress they are.
I paint them as a matter of going through the motions but I won't be copper drenching the boxes.
Not sure what cypress is growing at Cecil plains but it must be good as there is 2 full time mills out there.
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I have dragged heaps of winter honey out of the forest at Cecil plains, you keep going straight past the sawmill and hit the forestry station out there , it's good for gum top box and soapbush
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I used to make my own supers but with 250 x 22 mm timber at $ 10/m for not clear Hoop it is not worth it.
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I used to make my own supers but with 250 x 22 mm timber at $ 10/m for not clear Hoop it is not worth it.
I can get 250x25 white cypress for $7.70/m. cost about $14 in timber for a box then I have to thickness, saw and spindle mould them. on my costs so far I could sell them for between $22.50 and $25 a F/D super, I have seen them up to $30 each for radiata at guilfoyles and $25 at quality bee keeping.
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What is the us/Australian conversion rate? I can make a deep box out of eastern hemlock for $4.00 with my farming tax exempt form from the local mill.
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What is the us/Australian conversion rate? I can make a deep box out of eastern hemlock for $4.00 with my farming tax exempt form from the local mill.
That's about $5 AUD. FYI Australia is generally a higher cost country than the US.
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Still $5 is a lot less than the other numbers I've seen on this thread. Is there a shortage of forests in Australia? Next year it will cost me even less because I will cut the logs from my own land and have them cut with a portable saw mill. I have a lot of larch and its naturally rot resistant.
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Still $5 is a lot less than the other numbers I've seen on this thread. Is there a shortage of forests in Australia? Next year it will cost me even less because I will cut the logs from my own land and have them cut with a portable saw mill. I have a lot of larch and its naturally rot resistant.
Yes, $5 is a lot cheaper that what you've seen on this thread. I don't think it has anything to do with wood availability. Australia is just generally a higher cost country.
That's probably for a whole host of reasons of which I won't get into here.
What is perhaps the more interesting conversation is how much return in $$ (via honey) you get for that box in the two respective countries.
But that would be for another thread as well :-)
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Honey yield varies a lot across the US.
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After speaking to many saw mills regarding availability of 250mm wide boards Im thinking ill be spending my time converting to WSP boxes. the price difference between 200mm and 250 is $4.50/m and the 250mm boards are very much special order, the mill I have getting cypress for me cannot guarantee a consistent supply, but the 200mm boards are everywhere.
Finding hoop pine is even harder, cypress and radiata are easy.
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I make my hives from 245x22 pine. It is sourced from PGA Timber in Carrum Downs (outer Melbourne suburb). Ask for Phil
The pack size is about 350 lineal meters.
The quality is not free of knots or blemishes but the price of about $3 per meter allows for this.
If i am cutting and there is a knot or hole then the piece is put aside to make lids or risers for hives.
This allows you to cut 2 ends and sides for under $6 (8 framers).
Docking saw and router table (about $200 each) and a 22mm router bit and you are in business.
when set to rebate 22mm, if you attach a piece of 7 mm ply to the router fence you have the depth for the frame rebate without adjusting the router.
Have made 200 hives and 500 supers very economocally.
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That sounds good, I'll be calling PGA timber later in the month to get a few packs, I run a lot of ideals 147mm to 145mm any idea if they can supply other sizes.
Thanks for the tip. Oldbeavo.
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Phil can source whar ever you need, I also get 7mm brace ply for lids at about $27 per 8x4 sheet. Worth a call, he had some 19mm at one stage that was pretty cheap.
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So I've procrastinated about as long as I can with no better solution in my area. Guess I'm just going to have to start with RTA and maybe down the line find a cheaper solution. I think I'll go Ideal sizing to start.
Do you think I'll have an issue with fit, buying boxes from one supplier and frames from another?
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How much would freight cost Melb to ???QLD ? Is PGA timber an option? See post July 03.
Why not consider WSP, less boxes and frames to handle per KG of honey.
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I dont think postage on lumber makes it viable. Whats the weight of a single box? Courier estimates without dimensions and weights is highly unpredictable, but I'd say $5-$10 a kilogram would be an estimate.
Bad back is my main reason for wanting to go smaller and 8-frame. Ideal is the most common sizing around here. I'd prefer Manley but it's the least common. One other advantage for ideal is, at a pinch, I could use two ideal boxes as a transiton platform to swap between ideal frames and full depth, for nucs and I will also have a Flow hive, which is full depth.
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Hi SB-Russ
i was refering to post 20 on this topic, where i buy 240x22 rdaiata pine from PGA in a pack, which you would have to truck to QLD.
PGA are serious wholesalers of timber as i have a mate who was raving about buying 70x35 framing timber for $1.70 a meter, rang PGA and their price is $1.20 for a pack price.
How many boxes do you intend to make?
Interesting I use Burnett Bees in QLD to buy frames and can freight them to Victoria cheaper than the Locals can supply them.
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I must be getting Lazy,I have been buying flat packed 8 frame box's for $22 and after I soak them in Copper naphthalene drying them, Then gluing and screwing them and painting with three coats of exterior paint, I have had enough.
I ordered 20 plastic Supers from Nuplas for $31.50 plus $30 freight. There's nothing in it money wise for me as I dont have the equipment to manufacture my own box's.
They arrived today
Cheers
Steve
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My shipping rate was just a ballpark figure from an online courier the estimator for .25 cubic metres and 40kg of package. I'm only looking to setup about 10 boxes and a couple of nucs at this stage. I won't be making frames, too cuddly. It's probably not worth me going to the trouble for a small saving. And I'm flip-flopping on what size to go to with again. After deciding on Monday I was going ideal, I've since changed to Manley despite limited supply, but then changed again to WSP despite the extra weight. WSP would be much more economical, and if desperate about weight down the track, I could cut them down. But I'll probably be back to Manley by lunch time :)
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ATM if you buy 20 box's from Nuplas freight is $30 Australia wide. Awesome in my books.
With box's size, they get heavy full of Honey what ever size they are. I find in easier to take the frames out individual and stack them in an empty super and wheel them away. Very limited lifting for me.
Steve
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Yeah Steve that the as sort of my thinking that I'd probably only take a few frames at a time anyway, as I'm not running a commercial op, but still didn't want to go full deeps. Also only going 8 frame weight is a little easier. I hadn't really considered WSP until I saw its 3/4 of a deep, and manly is only another 10-15% less, but WSP is available from all my local suppliers.
Only other detractor for larger frames is I'd like to try comb honey and have heard smaller frames are better for that, plus I want to go foundation less and wonder about the comb stability in the larger size.
As for the plastic boxes, not really my cup of tea, but I can see the benefits. How do they go in winter? Do they have an insulation layer? It's -1C here still this morning, with heavy frosts.
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I hear ya about Comb Honey I think it works better in smaller hives.and i saw somewhere that they make special um plastic again frames divided into segments for it.
It gets darn cold here down to -5 I have some other plastic Hives and they do as well as the timber one. I spose they move to the centre a little and cluster in what every box of tree stump they live in.
Speaking of foundation less, I had no foundation for a few frames last year and simply got a lump of bur comb and stuck it to the under side of the top bar and darn within 5 odds days they had drawn it out totally.
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I wonder would it be easy enough to just add an extra bottom bar or divider of some kind to the middle of a WSP frame to convert it to a dedicated comb frame? If I'm going foundation less anyway, there's no wires to worry about.
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Yep I've seen that done exactly I think the frame was divided into 6 segments with timber frame components.
cheap and easy.
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We do comb honey in a fullm depth frame by dividing it horizontally with a piece of timber about 10mm square.
We do this in an already used frame that has broken a wire or wax moth has attacked it. Scrape it clean and put in the divider which i turn so you have an edge upwards, not a flat. Then put some molten wax on the top and botton edge.
When you put it in the hive push the frames on each side tight against the comb honey frame. Needs to be done on a good honey flow.
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Well there you go thanks I will give it a go too.
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There is a supplier in Brisbane sells "budget"boxes for $15.85 each (these may have knots and other imperfections) Hardly worth the effort to make my own.
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Hey wombat2, can u tell me the suppliers name in Brisbane that sells the budget boxes.... Might grab a few.... thanks
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Guilfoyles
I believe they are about to or have moved from Wacol to Inala
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Guilfoyles
I believe they are about to or have moved from Wacol to Inala
I rung them asking about the budget boxes, got a whole story about how they don't specifically manufacture 'budget boxes' and they always use first grade timber.
Still going to get cypress, looks like if I cant get 250x25 boards my supplier will tongue and groove join 100 or 150mm together for me to make fulls.
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Guilfoyles
I believe they are about to or have moved from Wacol to Inala
I rung them asking about the budget boxes, got a whole story about how they don't specifically manufacture 'budget boxes' and they always use first grade timber.
Still going to get cypress, looks like if I cant get 250x25 boards my supplier will tongue and groove join 100 or 150mm together for me to make fulls.
Interesting how they list them in their catalogue - must just collect "seconds" and sell them off cheap when they are available.
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Well i've ordered locally enough gear to build 2 full hives and some spare. Couldn't put it off any longer as too much prep work to do, to have ready for when I find some bees and get going, before the peak time of tear is out. I decided on WSP in the end. Still not sure about my surface prep to put the hives on. I'm thinking for now, some old vinyl as a base, and a couple besser blocks may do, although I'm worried about ants & mice.
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Well i've ordered locally enough gear to build 2 full hives and some spare. Couldn't put it off any longer as too much prep work to do, to have ready for when I find some bees and get going, before the peak time of tear is out. I decided on WSP in the end. Still not sure about my surface prep to put the hives on. I'm thinking for now, some old vinyl as a base, and a couple besser blocks may do, although I'm worried about ants & mice.
Do you have cane toads in the area? If you do you will need to be 450mm off the ground - you will surprised at the number of toads hang around the hives at night
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Do you have cane toads in the area? If you do you will need to be 450mm off the ground - you will surprised at the number of toads hang around the hives at night
Not yet we don't, but I suspect we're on their ever advancing front, so maybe in a couple of years. I'll keep that in mind. We get quite strong winds here, so I'm not sure just stack teo besser blocks is the answer to that.
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Hi HCK, did you end up buying any timber from PGA in Carrum Downs for ideals?
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No. Although because of this thread it set me off in search of other options. I Purchased a second grade pine through local saw mill. Timber was rough sawn so they machined it for me. It was 150mm x 25. The same cut as you would see in treated pine barge boards 6"?1"s in the old book. The saw mill also cut it to length 352 mm and 485 mm. The machining cut the width down to 145mm. I could go down to 143 mm but the 2mm is handy once I have assembled the box I trim the base and sand all surfaces as required. Whittlesea saw mill also did the rebate where the frames sit. I did the rebate for the side joins. All in all it worked out very cheap in comparison to a beekeeping suppliers. It took a lot of foot work and phone calls. I started making enquiries in July and didn't get the product landed in my yard until September. Some of that delay was my fault. In amongst that another local mill contacted me, he sources his own logs. So he can cut me A grade pinus radiata to what ever width length etc I want. So he cut me some timber which was a little more but we'll worth it as it was very good quality. I need to preorder from him as he will pick logs and select the best part for me.this can take a while if the logs coming in aren't good enough, or he is ripping the whole log for a larger order etc.
After all that being said I think anyone could go to a local saw mill and start from there with enquiry.
The downside was that I had to wait, but I assumed that when I started. I had to order a pack lot from my first saw mill so a lot of timber, which again was fine 400 boxes was what I needed and more was fine I just had to pay for all that now rather than over a year or two.
The second saw mill smaller quantity is fine.
So anyone out there reading this go local see what you find.
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Once again great info, thanks
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Great information! I bought some cheap wood I found in Bunnings. I'm not sure why, but some Bunnings supplied cheap wood, others didn't.
I need to build many supers this winter. My father has suggested to go to salvage yards, he reckons I can use all sorts of things to build beehives with, like pallets or whatever.
Where can I find these local timberyards? How much did you have to spend for your minimum orders? I tried to find some awhile ago, did some google searches but was unsuccessful.
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Where abouts are you located?. I found 2 saw mills locally. Do the foot work ask at a real hardware strore , a local one that knows the local suppliers or ask some good local carpenters or at a joinery etc. I did have to spend about $ 2500. Which was relative to the 400 plus boxes I built/building. Much cheaper than the cheap bunnings timber I've seen.
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I'm located in the suburbs of South Australia. $2500 sure is a lot of money! I wouldn't be able to spend more than like $800. I'll need to ask around and do some research I suppose. Have you ever tried looking through salvage yards?
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Salvage yard material has too much variation in material length width etc. Which is not a problem if your time is of little or no cost and you have bench saws, drop saws, thicknessers etc etc. Look around you may find a saw mill that do small batch. I know of another beek that found a buisness that makes pallets to order, you know particular to different packing eg fridges of ovens etc. They make boxes lids etc for him. I came across a old abandoned saw mill on a property the farmer let me take some. It was hardwood I made lids, pallets and nuec boxes out of it.not my timber of choice but lots of it for a little honey. At the time it suited me as it was winter and I have the tools to construct, but if you buy flat pack you pay for that. What ever suits you at the time.
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Salvage yarding does seem like a pain. I do have all that equipment. I'll have to look around some more. Doing simple Google searches didn't give me anything back.
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Try industrial areas where they leave pallets out the front of factories. Some have different things like that available. Some have the same pallets/packs available so if you find something that suits you can go there regularly.
Just another low cost option.
Good luck with whatever you go with.
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Try industrial areas where they leave pallets out the front of factories. Some have different things like that available. Some have the same pallets/packs available so if you find something that suits you can go there regularly.
Just another low cost option.
Good luck with whatever you go with.
Our local Bunnings leaves a pile of pallets out every Friday night free for the taking over the weekend - you have to be quick - I only go for the "thick" (25mm or more) so I can dress down. When I have enough I will make into boards (I have the gear) and then into hives. I also grab the ones covered in ply - 10-15mm thick -nice sheets. I use these for lids and bottom boards - OK they may not be marine ply but a good coat of paint they will last long enough for a freebie.
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Fascinating idea! I'll have to see if my local Bunnings does something similar. Might go for a drive one afternoon and see what I can find.
I struggle to differential between which woods are suitable, and which aren't. I brought home a book shelf that looked like solid wood one day, to only find it was veneer and not suitable.
How long do they last for
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If the material is free and so too is your time . Then what's it matter and...... the only true way to find out "how long they will last" is time itself. Over the years I've used lots of different materials some fall to bits in less than 12 month others still going generations later. Still got boxes and lids made from army boxes for guns and ammunition etc, that were my grandfather's . Try something see what happens.
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Innovative mentality! Some good points.
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Fascinating idea! I'll have to see if my local Bunnings does something similar. Might go for a drive one afternoon and see what I can find
Take your trailer😉 Any thing not suitable for use ends up in the fire wood bin