Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: GSF on September 19, 2013, 03:32:03 pm
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As you can see, I'm located in central Alabama. I have been reading about bees dying in their winter cluster in the hive. At what tempature do they go head first in the cell to stay warm?
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>At what tempature do they go head first in the cell to stay warm?
In theory about 50 F. In reality, it's a bit more of a continuum starting at about 50 F and getting tighter as the temperature goes down.
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Along GFS question,
How large.....in terms of "ball sizes" does a cluster need to be to survive a Zone 7 winter???
An added question to that - what does it mean in pounds of bees for any given "ball size? Kinda trying the get a feel here.
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Instead of lbs of bees think of how many frames of bees going into winter. Up here in MI if you don't have 6 or seven in a single, your in trouble & need to combine.
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>How large.....in terms of "ball sizes" does a cluster need to be to survive a Zone 7 winter???
You barely have winter... a softball size cluster of Italians would probably make it. A baseball size cluster of Carnis would probably make it.
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In Wisconsin a basketball sized cluster (or larger) is preferred.
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I agree with T Beek that bigger is better when it comes to winter bees…..as long as they don’t eat all their stores by spring. However I have overwintered some pretty small colonies with the help of insulation. How you keep your bees might be just as important as your genetics. Varroa can take a big toll on the winter cluster size as well so there is no simple all encompassing answer to a minimum cluster requirement. Depends on hive design, varroa, genetics, venting, amount of cold, amount of stores, cleansing flights (if any), etc.
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With the right hive your bees should not be forced to go into cluster until the outside temprature falls below -25C.
Forcing them into cluster by not having a correctly insulated hive, all that results is the beekeepers fault, not the bees, or the varoa, or the other diseases.
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With the right hive your bees should not be forced to go into cluster until the outside temprature falls below -25C.
Forcing them into cluster by not having a correctly insulated hive, all that results is the beekeepers fault, not the bees, or the varoa, or the other diseases.
Curious about what kind of hives you have. My bees are in clusters way before the temperature even gets to freezing.
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With the right hive your bees should not be forced to go into cluster until the outside temprature falls below -25C.
Forcing them into cluster by not having a correctly insulated hive, all that results is the beekeepers fault, not the bees, or the varoa, or the other diseases.
Please provide a little (any?) evidence for this outrageous statement.
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we're a little cooler than average down here right now. bees cluster at around 52 degrees and we are already having lows in the 50's.
the thing that concerns me is that some of my hives are still wall to wall brood in at least one ten frame deep. if we have a sudden cold snap i'm concerned about chilled brood on outer frames. gary, if i remember right you've got a double deep full of bees, you should be ok, just make sure they don't starve this winter. down here the bees will still be raising brood in november most likely (they may never stop) and by late january they'll be bringing some pollen in already.
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With the right hive your bees should not be forced to go into cluster until the outside temprature falls below -25C.
Forcing them into cluster by not having a correctly insulated hive, all that results is the beekeepers fault, not the bees, or the varoa, or the other diseases.
Please provide a little (any?) evidence for this outrageous statement.
I have some hives that the bees have more than sufficient power to heat the top to 20C+ when its -25C outside.
I 've done the thermal measurement on the hive itselfs, and the bees have maintained the floor temperature not the top at 16C with the top at 30C and its -15C outside.
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I have some hives that the bees have more than sufficient power to heat the top to 20C+ when its -25C outside...
How about a description and some pics of these hives that maintain a 45°C (81°F) temperature differential?
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I have some hives that the bees have more than sufficient power to heat the top to 20C+ when its -25C outside...
How about a description and some pics of these hives that maintain a 45°C (81°F) temperature differential?
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/user6228_pic2520_1354406435.jpg) (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/derekm_2008_photo/media/user6228_pic2520_1354406435.jpg.html)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0265.jpg) (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/derekm_2008_photo/media/IMAG0265.jpg.html)
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I probably have the 2nd best insulated hives on this forum after Derekm, but I don’t quite agree with Derekm in this case. I have experimented with hives made from materials ranging from 19mm wood to 50mm of foam. By the time you get to 2” thick polystyrene (insulation board), a hive gets a little bulky. The big box stores in Michigan just carry up to 2” extruded foam board and cutting the foam that thick becomes a little more dangerous on the table saw IMO. So I stopped experimenting at 2” thick polystyrene. Still, 2” thick foam bee hives would probably classify as ‘super insulated.
Heat loss calculations do say that a heat source of 10 to 20 watts would maintain a temperature differential on the order of 30 to 40F with respect to the outside temp. HOWEVER the real variable here is the heat source; namely the bees. Turns out they don’t make many watts of heat if they’re not in cluster, not raising brood, or not aggravated. If you’ve ever watched bees in such a condition they just hang around on the frames and pretty much do nothing. Doing nothing generates very little watts.
So once the brooding stops in the late fall (Michigan), the watts of heat from the bees drop and even super insulated foam hives drop down to the 50F to 60F range and the bees go into a light cluster. Once they go into cluster, they do start generating a descent amount of watts again and since it doesn’t take many watts to keep a super insulated hive +30 to +40F above ambient, my hives tend to maintain a temp of between 45F and 60F all winter.
However once they stop brooding for the year, even the bees in my super insulated hives do drop back to a loose winter cluster. IMO the advantage of super insulation is it prevents the bees from being exposed to the really bitter cold night time temps.
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max metabolic rate is at a bee temperature of around 20C (68f). it fall off in both directions. At 20C it is around 20W/kg of bees. A good size cluster is around 1.7Kg. So 20w is conservative.
Bluebee your bees are telling you to add more insulation and seal those joints at top, my 20W gives 45C not 45F.
Bees in insulated hives can volunteer to cluster and save energy. Bees in wooden hives are forced to cluster or die.
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I don’t always listen to my bees. :) I think Finski scolded me one time to doing that (along with about everything else I do :laugh:). Anyways, who knows, you might be right. My goal is simply to get my bees through a Michigan winter. I’ve actually dropped down to 38mm thick foam hives in my newer designs. I really don’t see anything wrong with the bees going into cluster. This seems like a very natural behavior. Bees that don’t go into a winter cluster seem unnatural to me. Maybe I’m missing something.
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the target for full sized hive is 75mm of polystyrene or 50mm of PU/PIR. 50mm PIR is easy to work.
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^^^^^^ yeah, we've mostly only ever seen snow on television down here guys. i grew up really close to where gary lives and i can only remember single digit lows maybe 2 or 3 times in my entire life. now it only dips into the upper 20's a few times a year. you guys struggle to keep them warm and we struggle to keep them from starving. our main flows are over about the time you guys are thawing out and we have a long dearth while your main flows are on, then we have some weak fall flows and after that it's basically a dearth again. in a good year i leave two deeps and a medium and hope i don't have to feed in late february. this past january i had highs near 80 and 3 semi-full frames of brood in all but one hive that was a pathetic cut out i did last september. this year i'm feeding all but a couple of hives already.
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Goldenrod has been done for a couple weeks, won't have dandelions until April....a 7 month dearth..........A new beekeeping season has begun :) in North Wisconsin.
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Goldenrod has been done for a couple weeks, won't have dandelions until April....a 7 month dearth..........A new beekeeping season has begun :) in North Wisconsin.
I don't envy you folks up north at all. Good luck.
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definitely a different set of problems. how are things in the carolinas ray?
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The goldenrods are going strong right now. We started getting rain last Saturday. I was wondering if that would help the gr to provide some nectar. We left early am this morning and was on the Beach in Pensacola around 9. We got back about 30 minutes before dark. I went to my beehive to look at it. I caught a wif of sour socks, and thought, yep the rain probably helped some.
10framer, I'll probably go into winter with two deeps. I'm concerned about the balancing act between starving out and packing out. How do you approach it? Were 'bouts did you live over here?
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i lived in auburn (beauregard) and we had yards in lee, macon, tallapoosa and chambers county.
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This is my first year as a beek. Not sure what to do to get the girls ready for winter. Here in Eastern NC, the goldenrod is still going strong. The bees have been more active in the last couple of weeks than during the summer. Looks like I'm heading into fall with single deep boxes for brood, and a medium super with honey, for each lang hive. Looks like they have stored honey/pollen in the outside 2 frames of the deeps, on each side of the brood. So, they should have plenty of food for winter. My top bar hive has 6 brood comb, and right now has about 8 combs of honey.
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I am sure for you guys in colder climates bees do freeze. But here in the South the expression I have always heard is "Bees do not freeze they starve." In other words they break a cluster to try and find food in an ill winter prepped hive and then starve??? Either way I guess they are dead. No problems keeping a nuc in my climate through winter as long as they have stores.
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I am sure for you guys in colder climates bees do freeze. But here in the South the expression I have always heard is "Bees do not freeze they starve." In other words they break a cluster to try and find food in an ill winter prepped hive and then starve??? Either way I guess they are dead. No problems keeping a nuc in my climate through winter as long as they have stores.
SADLY,
I think you just called it for last years feral hives.......here in southern TN anyway
Between 2012's EARLY summer heat wave and drought which curtailed most of the early season food sources.....followed by a long cool/cold WET!!!!! spring 2013, I think the feral hives here.....simply ran out of gas!! They starved!! I did see bee activity last spring in April, but it petered out.
I wasn't even a Beek then, but the weather pattern was watched.
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carol, i caught a swarm that i'm pretty sure came from a feral hive within a mile of my bees in early may. i think at least some of them made it because the best flow was privet and it came in around the same time. that swarm however wouldn't have made it through this winter without being fed. They drew out a full ten frame deep but i fed them yesterday. hopefully the established hive they came from did a little better.
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carol, i caught a swarm that i'm pretty sure came from a feral hive within a mile of my bees in early may. i think at least some of them made it because the best flow was privet and it came in around the same time. that swarm however wouldn't have made it through this winter without being fed. They drew out a full ten frame deep but i fed them yesterday. hopefully the established hive they came from did a little better.
trees are a lot warmer than hives
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carol, i caught a swarm that i'm pretty sure came from a feral hive within a mile of my bees in early may. i think at least some of them made it because the best flow was privet and it came in around the same time. that swarm however wouldn't have made it through this winter without being fed. They drew out a full ten frame deep but i fed them yesterday. hopefully the established hive they came from did a little better.
trees are a lot warmer than hives
winter isn't the problem she's concerned about, it's the lack of stores going into winter.
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I probably have the 2nd best insulated hives on this forum after Derekm, but I don’t quite agree with Derekm in this case. I have experimented with hives made from materials ranging from 19mm wood to 50mm of foam. By the time you get to 2” thick polystyrene (insulation board), a hive gets a little bulky. The big box stores in Michigan just carry up to 2” extruded foam board and cutting the foam that thick becomes a little more dangerous on the table saw IMO. So I stopped experimenting at 2” thick polystyrene. Still, 2” thick foam bee hives would probably classify as ‘super insulated.
Heat loss calculations do say that a heat source of 10 to 20 watts would maintain a temperature differential on the order of 30 to 40F with respect to the outside temp. HOWEVER the real variable here is the heat source; namely the bees. Turns out they don’t make many watts of heat if they’re not in cluster, not raising brood, or not aggravated. If you’ve ever watched bees in such a condition they just hang around on the frames and pretty much do nothing. Doing nothing generates very little watts.
So once the brooding stops in the late fall (Michigan), the watts of heat from the bees drop and even super insulated foam hives drop down to the 50F to 60F range and the bees go into a light cluster. Once they go into cluster, they do start generating a descent amount of watts again and since it doesn’t take many watts to keep a super insulated hive +30 to +40F above ambient, my hives tend to maintain a temp of between 45F and 60F all winter.
However once they stop brooding for the year, even the bees in my super insulated hives do drop back to a loose winter cluster. IMO the advantage of super insulation is it prevents the bees from being exposed to the really bitter cold night time temps.
Hey BlueBee. I was googling like mad on this so here I am. My question is whether insulation lengthens the fall brood-rearing season to a dangerous extent. ie costs you more in honey (and pollen) than it saves. Do you have a handle on that?
Hi Derek!
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I have some hives that the bees have more than sufficient power to heat the top to 20C+ when its -25C outside.
I 've done the thermal measurement on the hive itselfs, and the bees have maintained the floor temperature not the top at 16C with the top at 30C and its -15C outside.
Strange, but England does not have -25C or -15C out temperatures. I wonder where from you get those results.
-25C is rare in sounthern Finland where I live.
In spring bees make a tight cluster when they protect their first brood during cold weathers.
.When I trickle hives in October, temp is +5C and all hives are in cluster.
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Hey BlueBee. I was googling like mad on this so here I am. My question is whether insulation lengthens the fall brood-rearing season to a dangerous extent. ie costs you more in honey (and pollen) than it saves. Do you have a handle on that?
I know that it does not. Old queens stop brooding 2 weeks earlier than this summer queens.
Hives stops brooding when they do not get any more pollen from nature, or nectar. Small brooding starts again when I give winter feeding.
It depends much on pastures.
Then stop brooding depends on bee strain, how it is adapted to local climate.
What ever the weathers are - or insulation-, plants prepare themselves for winter and stops flowering. That tells to bees too that autumn is coming. Or in dry weather, bees stop brood rearing when dearth stop blooming. African bee moves to another district to avoid short of food.
If hives do not react on short of food, they will die.
They will die too, if they continue brood rearing and new bees have no wintering ability. (lack of pollen in the hive)
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I bought 4 queens from Cyprus 3 years ago and they react on late summer just like local bees. But they are mad to start brood rearing in spring too early. Cyprus is near Africa.
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Package bees have bee breeded to rear continuously brood (to be sold). They may be wehat ever and their original insticts are often sweeped away.
I have had sometimes bee strains which does not react on weathers. Thery were often near to starve out.
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I have some hives that the bees have more than sufficient power to heat the top to 20C+ when its -25C outside.
I 've done the thermal measurement on the hive itselfs, and the bees have maintained the floor temperature not the top at 16C with the top at 30C and its -15C outside.
Strange, but England does not have -25C or -15C out temperatures. I wonder where from you get those results.
-25C is rare in sounthern Finland where I live.
In spring bees make a tight cluster when they protect their first brood during cold weathers.
.When I trickle hives in October, temp is +5C and all hives are in cluster.
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in the last 3 years we have had -15c. And if you know about thermal conductance you don't need to experience the temp to know what a heat output is going to do.
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And if you know about thermal conductance you don't need to experience the temp to know what a heat output is going to do.
These things have been known longer than we have lived, derekm.
These have simpliest phenomenoms in beekeeping.
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Hi Derek, my bees do brood longer in the foam insulated hives and nucs; typically until November in the nucs and I believe December in the full sized hives. However my bees are not laying down wall to wall frames of brood at this point. Each brood cycle gets smaller and smaller as the hives cool off. As Finski says, the bees know winter is coming. My hives are from 25mm to 50mm thick foam but even foam hives cool off.
As for the late brood cycles eating them out of house and home; literally. That hasn’t happened in my climate yet. No guarantees for elsewhere. Actually I winter my full sized hives in single boxes whereas most beeks in Michigan winter in “double deeps”. What I have worried more about is the massive number of bees (summer+winter) I end up shoving down into a single box! I’m a little surprised there is enough food for so many bees. I should note my singles are actually jumbos (14.5” high)
I believe one of the big advantages of the insulated hives is the ability for the bee cluster to move around easier and use the honey stored in the box. 100 lbs of carbohydrates is actually quite a bit of stored energy!
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Each brood cycle gets smaller and smaller as the hives cool off.
That is not possible..... It mesns that winter cluster goes too smaller and smaller.
Do you realize that brood cycle is 3 weeks.
In my hives brood cyckle it at its top at the end of July, then after 3-4 weeks it is zero.
If hives are on woods pastures, brood rearing goes from top to zero in 2 weeks when fireweed stops blooming.
It is better to stay of from this forum. I cannot stand these new inventors.
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Hive has allways the same temperature for brood, and then one day bees decice that they pull down the heat and carry last brood out.
Bees know the cooling weathers and that is why they kill drones first.
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Thanks everyone and great forum. It's 54 (12C) here and my girls are foraging hard; I put that down to the poly box. It's a nice big warm space in there at present.
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Bees know the cooling weathers and that is why they kill drones first.
Maybe I shouldn't mention to Finski that I see drones in December :-D
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Maybe I shouldn't mention to Finski that I see drones in December :-D
Your hive is queenless then.
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Haven't seen a 'live' drone for nearly a month.
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Haven't seen a 'live' drone for nearly a month.
You just remember to report to forum every drone what you see.
...and non seen drones too....
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I saw a drone yesterday. Real late here for drones but temperatures next week are forecast to be in the lower fifties for highs. Bet the girls will kick
any remaining boys out!!
John
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Maybe I shouldn't mention to Finski that I see drones in December :-D
Your hive is queenless then.
Nope!
Are you telling me in your 50 some years of bee keeping you've never even seen a snow drone :?
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Are you telling me in your 50 some years of bee keeping you've never even seen a snow drone :?
Oh dear. May God bless American beekeeping!
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definitely a different set of problems. how are things in the carolinas ray?
Sorry Rob, didn't see your post. Where I'm at goldenrod is blooming everywhere. My colonies are working their fannies off. I'm wanting to winter in a single deep or two mediums. I got to make sure they have enough room to store the nectar, goldenrod, that they are pulling in. Down here, does it hurt to go into winter nectar bound? Let them eat their way to empty comb to lay winter brood?
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Each brood cycle gets smaller and smaller as the hives cool off.
That is not possible..... It mesns that winter cluster goes too smaller and smaller.
Do you realize that brood cycle is 3 weeks.
In my hives brood cyckle it at its top at the end of July, then after 3-4 weeks it is zero.
If hives are on woods pastures, brood rearing goes from top to zero in 2 weeks when fireweed stops blooming.
It is better to stay of from this forum. I cannot stand these new inventors.
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Hive has allways the same temperature for brood, and then one day bees decice that they pull down the heat and carry last brood out.
Bees know the cooling weathers and that is why they kill drones first.
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Huh? I find Finski's posts confusing, often condescending and mostly offensive to anyone who has even slightly different methods..............and then he has the nerve to tell others to stay off this forum? Please get a grip ;)
Carry last brood out to....where? What the ............? is he talking about??????
Clusters do in fact get smaller due to die off and a slowed down queen as winter takes hold, never seen one that didn't. The Fin has magic bees 8-)
C/mon now, does anyone really believe Finski has bees? Really? ......for 50 years?......really?........... :-D Finland isn't the center of the universe and Finski isn't always on track.
Someones :-\ Mama and Daddy forgot that lesson. ......................Sorry.......ahead of the onslaught :laugh: Just a joke, son........take it easy............
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definitely a different set of problems. how are things in the carolinas ray?
Sorry Rob, didn't see your post. Where I'm at goldenrod is blooming everywhere. My colonies are working their fannies off. I'm wanting to winter in a single deep or two mediums. I got to make sure they have enough room to store the nectar, goldenrod, that they are pulling in. Down here, does it hurt to go into winter nectar bound? Let them eat their way to empty comb to lay winter brood?
ray,
i've never seen bees work goldenrod like this. if i had added drawn comb i could have taken a surplus. a month ago i was feeding and worried most of my hives would starve.
i went through most of my hives saturday and a few of them are pretty much bound. i've got lows in the upper 40's in the 10 day forecast so i guess we'll see. i'm not changing anything at this point. all of my hives are stronger than what i got through winter last year and now they've all got enough stores to get them through december i think.
i've more or less made my plans for next years expansion now that i know when the flows fall around here. now i just need the weather to cooperate.
rob
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Huh? I find Finski's posts confusing, often condescending and mostly offensive to anyone who has even slightly different methods..............and then he has the nerve to tell others to stay off this forum? Please get a grip ;)
Carry last brood out to....where? What the ............? is he talking about??????
Clusters do in fact get smaller due to die off and a slowed down queen as winter takes hold, never seen one that didn't. The Fin has magic bees 8-)
C/mon now, does anyone really believe Finski has bees? Really? ......for 50 years?......really?........... :-D Finland isn't the center of the universe and Finski isn't always on track.
Someones :-\ Mama and Daddy forgot that lesson. ......................Sorry.......ahead of the onslaught :laugh: Just a joke, son........take it easy............
You are right!
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Guys. I do not know anything about bees or English terms how to bee wise in this forum.
I am satiefied when I get 200 lb honey per hive and I have never asked any advice from this forum.
My mom and dad have been long time in grave, and even they cannot help me in this huge job.
Things just go as they go.
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X:X X:X BRAVO! Even A little humility goes a long way.
"Love and Happiness"...........A. Green
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Humility has never been one of my virtues.
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When to go to winter cluster
And remember, my country is at same altitude as Alaska. I am just at same latitude as Anchorage.
Me no USA, me mites.
I just opened 5 hives and I moved couple of capped food frames to the nuc, which had no feeding.
Hives were in cluster. Hives had propably some brood in one or two frames after feeding.
Bees were stiff like in sleep. They were clearly in wintering mode. When I moved one frame with bees to the nuc,
bees were not able even to walk.
Our weathers have been here during day +7 to 10 C and at night about +2C. Last night was first real frost night -5C.
So bees are clearly in food saving mode. Clusters were in front of entrance . Most of the hive room did not have bees. They are silent together.
To me this is a clear winter cluster. If the colony was in two boxes, bees made a 2-store tower against the front wall. That is usual.
One hive had 3 frames brood, but it had started to pull off capped brood. Part of capping were more or less broken and white brood were half eaten.
Bees do not waste protein of brood. They eat them.
One hive was restless. Bees walked actively. I took a queen to another hive 2 weeks ago. It has not reared a new queen.
I joined it to another nuc.
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It was difficult to draw capped frames from the hive, because bees do not moved and some was clearly squeezed between frames.
Post Scriptum: Honey bee is a southern animal. It has never been wild in Finnish nature. Honeybee make a saving mode cluster of course in warm climate because it must save stores to next season. It makes winter cluster even if there are no hard frost weathers or snow outside.
The original place, where honeybees have developed, are Mediterranean countries.
But there are high mountains too on area and cold weathers. Honey bees is flexible animal.
But there are much bee strains and races in Europe, which do not survive in our climate.
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When to go to winter cluster
And remember, my country is at same altitude as Alaska. I am just at same latitude as Anchorage.
Me no USA, me mites.
IMHO
So isn't Fairbanks, Alaska the same altitude by a whole different world from Anchorage you get a lot of mild weather along the coast with the Japanese trade winds.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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>At what tempature do they go head first in the cell to stay warm?
In theory about 50 F. In reality, it's a bit more of a continuum starting at about 50 F and getting tighter as the temperature goes down.
What Michael said at the beginning, that works right now in my hives.
North Finland got its first snow now. And most of tree leaves have dropped down in south Finland.