Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: divemaster1963 on May 22, 2013, 12:09:27 am
-
OK time for subjective input and comments.
I have built a press for making foundation because I cannot afford the cost of the roller units. so check it out and tell me what you think.
I have made a dipping board to make the blank sheets.
first the molds:
(http://s17.postimg.org/x3bmflryz/100_4188.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/x3bmflryz/)
(http://s2.postimg.org/5gxvfr3mt/100_4189.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5gxvfr3mt/)
(http://s2.postimg.org/s6x08qmud/100_4190.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/s6x08qmud/)
(http://s8.postimg.org/5bhrgcl9d/100_4191.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5bhrgcl9d/)
(http://s4.postimg.org/ja56qeby1/100_4192.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ja56qeby1/)
(http://s22.postimg.org/dqsj2zokt/100_4201.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dqsj2zokt/)
(http://s24.postimg.org/bl7ezyzwh/100_4204.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bl7ezyzwh/)
(http://s23.postimg.org/zf91nvx9z/100_4205.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/zf91nvx9z/)
now for the press. I can adjust the thickness of the sheets by removing shims between the rollers.
(http://s7.postimg.org/fjvb4myuf/100_4206.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fjvb4myuf/)
(http://s13.postimg.org/6inw32lpv/100_4207.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6inw32lpv/)
(http://s22.postimg.org/fuc525359/100_4208.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fuc525359/)
(http://s9.postimg.org/aukrgr4bv/100_4209.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/aukrgr4bv/)
-
Not like the one I was thinking of. If you have the opposite's correct for the bees don't see why it wouldn't work. :) d2
-
it is a exact negative of a foundation sheet.
john
-
Where did you find the rollers?
-
Where did you find the rollers?
they are stock steel rods. i cut them to length and then put them in my old mill and drilled and taped the ends then I just rough milled the faces for traction. then used angle iron for the ends. and a old handle for a transfer pump to turn it with. I am still deciding if I nee to groove the ends and attach a figure eight band to help the bottom roller turn when pressing.
john
-
Nice.
-
Very nice work. However, what we think is pretty much useless if the bees do not like it. I would love to see how they take to it.
-
You are very industrious divemaster!
Nicely done X:X X:X X:X
-
That's fantastic! Keep us posted on how the bees like it!
-
Im dipping sheets this weekend and willgive report back. I have tryed it with pieces of wax and the turned out great with differnt thicknesses. I even got one so thin you could alnost read thru it. It whould make for some great cut comb foundation.
stay tuned. ;)
John
-
I am confused.....you have a mold there, and then you also have a roller. the roller doesn't appear to have a comb imprint on it, so what are you then doing, using the roller to make a blank that is whatever thickness you wish, and then the mold to imprint the comb pattern? basically your roller is a tablet press machine in other words, not a comb roller or foundation machine?
-
I am confused.....you have a mold there, and then you also have a roller. the roller doesn't appear to have a comb imprint on it, so what are you then doing, using the roller to make a blank that is whatever thickness you wish, and then the mold to imprint the comb pattern? basically your roller is a tablet press machine in other words, not a comb roller or foundation machine?
Basically is a litho press. you dip a plate into wax and make sheets of wax with no impression on it. you can use the blanks as starter strips or the whole sheet to get the bees started. when you have a pile of sheets dipped you place them in about 90-100 degree water with a little soap and then place the warned sheets between the plates with the comb design on it then run it Thur the press then separate and then you have a new foundation sheet any thickness you want from brood sheet thickness to cutcomb thickness. it is the same as the rollerpress with the impression on the rollers. I have thought about attaching the sheets to two dough rollers and then running the sheets Thur that. same principle as the steel roller press.
john
-
oh...you roll the imprinted honeycomb sheet through the rollers, which presses it together on the soft wax sheet and thus makes the comb foundation sheet from the blank....gotcha. I didn't even think of that. neat. any difficulties with alignment though? I have heard if the cells are out of alignment the bees wont take to them that well, nor will it be as strong as it should be. does this work well with the bees? At $1,000+ ea. for a metal comb roller, guess if this works it'd be something.
thanks for the info.
-
well it partly worked. I dipped about 100 sheets in about 2hours tonight. when I went to press the sheets the rollers keep slipping. I need to make gears for the rollers. Or I am thinking about making two plates and mounting them to to rollers and thus making the foundation roller press.
Stay tuned for further developments. ;)
John
P.S. I could just place the blank sheets in the frames. the bees will draw it out. My uncle did that way back before they had the roller mills out.
-
Your craftsmanship is impeccable. The crank is cool.
My sister owns a large litho/etching press. These have a movable bed (1/2"-1" steel !) that is gear or chaindriven in sync with the rollers. Typically only one roller (upper) is driven, the upper roller is are often a larger diameters, so upper and lower don't turn on the same rotation, lower roller is a snubbing device to apply pressure on the movable bed.
The litho stone is moved through the press carried on the movement of the bed plane. This is different than the "pasta" roller design, were the material is drawn by the friction on the rollers. In an etching press, the active movement of the bed plane that carries the plate through the pressure (viz. Rembrant Press). Some litho presses have a floating bed, and the movement of the upper roller is the motive.
You can look at the suppliers catalog to get an impression of the designs.
http://www.conradmachine.com/conrad_machine_printmaking_catalog.pdf (http://www.conradmachine.com/conrad_machine_printmaking_catalog.pdf)
-
Your craftsmanship is impeccable. The crank is cool.
My sister owns a large litho/etching press. These have a movable bed (1/2"-1" steel !) that is gear or chaindriven in sync with the rollers. Typically only one roller (upper) is driven, the upper roller is are often a larger diameters, so upper and lower don't turn on the same rotation, lower roller is a snubbing device to apply pressure on the movable bed.
The litho stone is moved through the press carried on the movement of the bed plane. This is different than the "pasta" roller design, were the material is drawn by the friction on the rollers. In an etching press, the active movement of the bed plane that carries the plate through the pressure (viz. Rembrant Press). Some litho presses have a floating bed, and the movement of the upper roller is the motive.
You can look at the suppliers catalog to get an impression of the designs.
http://www.conradmachine.com/conrad_machine_printmaking_catalog.pdf (http://www.conradmachine.com/conrad_machine_printmaking_catalog.pdf)
all is as stated. I was just using the term litho so that he would be able to envision the way the plate is moving Thur the rollers. to imprint the sheet. . But thank you for the proper terminology and device description.
-
I'm trying to envision your production process. You dip/pour/paint/roll melted wax onto a sheetform to make a thin sheet of un-imprinted stock. How does this thin sheet peel up? Are the sheets thin flexible metal?
You run the thin wax sheet as a sandwich between top and bottom molds with imprinted design. How does the now sculpted wax peel off the sandwhich between the two molds?
Your original is a commercial foundation, from which you made a negative inter-mold of using the urethane epoxy? Later you made two positive working molds off the negative. Are the working molds also epoxy?
Could you make a "litho-stone" out of casting plaster, or do you need flexibility in the imprinted mold to get the wax to peel?
Can you use artists latex as the mold-inter-mold. http://www.aeromarineproducts.com/latex-mold-rubber.htm (http://www.aeromarineproducts.com/latex-mold-rubber.htm)
-
I used a sheet of plastic foundation as the positive to make a negative of each side of the foundation. done one side of the plastic foundation then flip and make a mold of theother side. this gives you a mold when placed together of a sheet of foundation. I then have a turkey roaster that i place wax in a bath of water at about 145-160 degrees. this keeps the wax melted. I then have a dipping board the size of a peace of foundation that I dip into the wax then it soft hardens in seconds then I place it into a tub of water and it slides right off the board. the water is about 100 degres so the sheet stays soft. I then place the soft sheet between the molds sprayed with release agent then run it Thur the rollers. then put it all in another tub of water at 60 degrees to remove the molds then walla a sheet of imprinted wax foundation. trim to fit into fame with wires.
does that help.
I am having problems with the molds slipping. I am changing the way it rolls Thur the rollers. still a work in progress. but I will solve it.
John
-
so far this is what I have found in my trial. I have a had time making the press using two plates to make the foundation. So I have gone to the old way (don't fix it if ain't broke rule.) I am dipping a plate in wax and just making sheets ( one to two dips per to keep them very very thin.) I place the blank sheet in the frame. I have notice that the bees are all over the blank sheets and are building comb. I tried two sheets one thin one a little thicker. they prefer the thinest sheet to build on. So I guess the keepers of the pass where right you can redesign the mouse trap a million ways it still does the same thing as the first. Trap mice.
John
-
yep. most fishing lures are made to catch the fishermen more then the fish really. many do not use any foundation at all, though I'm not one of them, my current line of thinking is simple is probably better. 1/4" strip or more, or maybe in your case super thin blank.
the only real value I think in a foundation is really to attempt to keep things straighter anyways. I do not want to train my bees not to make wax or comb thats for sure.
-
I found a post on the Science in Africa website where the foundation is made by making two silicone molds and placing them on the opposite sides of a folding steel frame. The wax is then poured onto the one half of the mold and the two halves are pressed together (like a book). The author stated they were averaging about 50 sheets an hour with this method. Another interesting comment was that the addition of some propolis to the wax used helped strengthen the wax foundations. You'd have to google it since I don't seem to be allowed to post links yet.
-
Making a beeswax foundation mold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBrBzFTxu0I#)
MAKING WAX=FOUNDATION=CHEAP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lU3C4f2Xfc#ws)
-
It occurs to me that the simplest method would be to do the making of the basic sheet from this youtube:
MAKING WAX=FOUNDATION=CHEAP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lU3C4f2Xfc#ws)
And then emboss it by making an embosser by gluing a commercially available plastic foundation to a piece of plywood and then the other side to another piece of plywood. So you would have to purchase two plastic foundations.
Then make some sort of jig that allows them to mate properly and then putting the sheet on top of one then placing the top or other side press to top and applying pressure.
This is just theory to me now.
Any thoughts?
-
there is one thing you are missing. if you use a plastic foundation as your press you are now making a positive of the foundation and instead of having raised comb for the bees to use you have grooves. the bees will fill the grooves before starting the comb. you need to make a negative to get the proper foundation. I am working thought that process when i have time. i am making a roller press with the resin cast around rolling pins. have not started them yet but will post when i have done it to show the status. have had a bad DEC. with medical problems me and the wife. plus helping out a Friend who had two strokes and pneumonia keep his business running. hoping the new year is better.
john
-
Glad I posted. Thanks for catching me before wasting time on a mistake. So I would have to make an opposite mold.
That would take some careful work but simply putting a release agent on the original and then pouring some resin, say epoxy on top, would make the proper female mold. Sounds like this was one of your ideas.
For your rollers you could use bicycle chain and sprockets. I don't do metal work, but making a roller from wood on my lathe would be easy. A large diameter roller would be easy to make and might be a good idea.
Thanks for the great ideas BTW and thoughts.
-
There is one thing you are missing. The bees will fill the grooves before starting the comb.
I actually asked a similar question on another forum, and the responses were overwhelmingly negative (mostly from beekeepers who haven't actually done it). My question was whether bees would draw out comb more regularly if they are presented with some sort of guide that is not an actual positive comb pattern.
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27393 (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27393)
-
There is one thing you are missing. The bees will fill the grooves before starting the comb.
I actually asked a similar question on another forum, and the responses were overwhelmingly negative (mostly from beekeepers who haven't actually done it). My question was whether bees would draw out comb more regularly if they are presented with some sort of guide that is not an actual positive comb pattern.
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27393 (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27393)
people have used Popsicle sticks as starter strips and have had success with it. I have use blank starter strips of wax and just added cross wire for support. it has worked for me only in the brood chambers. everyone i used for supers has had problems with blowouts during spinning. but there is really only one way to know if something will work for you is to try it with limited use and see. we all use the ways that work best for our situation.
john