Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: montauk170 on August 18, 2010, 02:12:44 pm
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Saw this on youtube from Backwards. Does anyone cut the capped honey combs out like Kirk does, right next to the hive and put the frames back?
Any negatives with this method?
Seems like less mess in the kitchen.
Putting the frames back I know the bees will clean up the dripping honey but will there be issues, aside from ants?
Backwards Beekeepers TV: The Honey Harvest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8b4k-RIH14&feature=player_embedded#ws)
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A guy looses 50% of yield when bees make new combs. Mad man.
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If you tried that during a dearth or in a crowded bee yard you would set off a robbing incident of EPIC proportions...EPIC I tell ya.
Scott
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Add that to the amount of uncapped comb he harvested, and he will have some nice mead in about a week.
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a guy looses 50% of yield when bees make new combs. Mad man.
Educate me? How so?
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a guy looses 50% of yield when bees make new combs. Mad man.
Finski, do you have any empirical evidence for that claim? I ask only because I've seen claims of from little cost to over 75% cost for cut comb/crush and strain.
The only scientific discussions I've seen on the topic point to a MUCH lower effect.
J-
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To produce their wax, bees must consume about eight times as much honey by mass.
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To produce their wax, bees must consume about eight times as much honey by mass.
mean of 8.4 lbs according to Whitcomb (1946)
And, One pound of wax supports about 22 lbs of honey. (From Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products, Coggshall and Morse pg 41)
Therefore, spending eight pounds of honey, nets 22 pounds of honey storage. Thats a 36% difference but it's also not including the capping wax lost if you extract. We might be able to drop that to 33%-35%?
Consider also that Whitcomb (1946) found a tendency for wax production to become more efficient as time progressed. A hive raised on crush-and-strain or cut comb may then produce wax even more efficiently, maybe down to a 20%-25% loss?
Figure in your expense for extracting, time difference including setup and cleanup, equipment depreciation and my calculator just fried. :-D :-D
I'm GUESSING that there's a harvest volume in there somewhere that "justifies" extraction -vs- comb removal...
I'm hoping that someone can provide more studies beyond the two above that I "borrowed" off of Michael Bush's web site.
J-
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HomeBru ......
Hint
You can harvest AND SELL the bees wax. On a 10 frame Med. (6 5/8") you wil get about 2lbs.of bees wax.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Wow! That is a lot of expended food and energy to make the wax, why would someone crush and strain? I have seen a homemade spinner made from 2by4's and a garbage bag and drill on utube.
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it is true that they have to remake the wax, but they have to if you do cut comb also. crush and strain is a good method for someone only doing a small amount of honey. it's quick and efficient. bees make comb. they have no problem making more. they do it in the hive to expand the area for brood and storage all the time.
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For a small producer, crush and strain is cheaper and takes less space/specialized equipment. And some people like to use/sell the wax as well.
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crush and strain works well for those with top bar hives because you aren't pulling as many combs from any one given hive usually as you are from a box/frame hive like the langstroth hives.
Bees are pretty efficient and quick at drawing out new comb and it helps keep the rotation of old comb moving out of the hive faster. giving the bees fresh wax for brood rearing much more often.
All in all, if you only look at honey production, one can see some concern, but as part of whole hive health and small, consistent honey production, crush and strain is my choice.
Big Bear
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Thanks for all the info and points of view! New brood new comb does sound good and healthy. A lot of ideas to think about, thanks, Country :)
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so with all this in mind, would ross rounds be better than cut comb? of course better meaning you wouldnt have to make the bees works as hard and that way they can collect more honey
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how would they not have to work as hard? i have heard that ross rounds are a trick to use. do some research on them before you spend the money.
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I would be worried about robbing to start with. I know when feeding, they get stirred up and they do end up in the syrup bucket. I second would worry about all that uncapped honey went into that bucket. And I guess the crushed and strained all the bees that ended up in that bucket also.
On the other hand, that was a steep hill and hauling 40 pound boxes down the hill would have been a pain, but not that much for me.
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don't think i'd do it at the hives. that would be a mess. wouldn't worry to much about the bees that die in it though. when you take the honey comb and junk from a cutout you get some dead bees in it. i pick them out before i crush and then strain out the odd bits that are left behind.
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HomeBru ......
Hint
You can harvest AND SELL the bees wax. On a 10 frame Med. (6 5/8") you wil get about 2lbs.of bees wax.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Yep! I'm just getting started and already have a few folks eagerly waiting "real" beeswax for their soaps, candles, and homeopathic stuff.
J-
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it all depends on how you prepare for it.
I use a wagon the pails sit on (or a box/empty hive with a lid)
It's then easy enough to cut the comb into the pail(s) after brushing bees from said comb and placing lid on right away.
Some bees sometimes still find their way into the pail but they are removed easily enough before crushing.
if you anticipate having multiple pails, the wagon makes for an easy trip.
those gardeners wagons with all terrain tires are great for this.
Big Bear
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You save a lot money if you give foundations.
You need in one good hive 5 kg foundations which is equal 40 kg = 80 lb honey
Bees need 8 kg honey to make 1 kg comb wax.
10 langstroth foundations are equal 1 kg wax.
To draw 10 foundations to combs bees need about 1 kg wax more.
These calculations are pretty same as this reseach have got on field:
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm)
Bees like to draw drone combs without foundations. You may also see
how much natural amount of dronecombs (20%) affects on honey yield
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html (http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html)
Colonies with drone comb gained only 25.2 16.0 kg whereas those without drone comb gained 48.8 14.8 kg.
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I have been doing it pretty much this way. I have some pf120's those I scrape into the bucket with a rubber spatula then the rest I have are foundationless which I either cut just like he did or the really nice looking ones come inside to be cut for comb honey. It works real well and is much less mess inside and more efficient. If you keep the bucket closed between frames and are carefull about spillage there are no robbing problems. Then I just put the frames right back on the hive for clean up.
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You save a lot money if you give foundations.
You need in one good hive 5 kg foundations which is equal 40 kg = 80 lb honey
Bees need 8 kg honey to make 1 kg comb wax.
10 langstroth foundations are equal 1 kg wax.
To draw 10 foundations to combs bees need about 1 kg wax more.
These calculations are pretty same as this reseach have got on field:
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm)
Bees like to draw drone combs without foundations. You may also see
how much natural amount of dronecombs (20%) affects on honey yield
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html (http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html)
Colonies with drone comb gained only 25.2 16.0 kg whereas those without drone comb gained 48.8 14.8 kg.
From the honeybeeworld article: "If there is a serious plan to make money, at least 80% of the 5 standard supers of comb should be fully drawn when starting out." I get that. If the plan is to make money and I'll add, on a large scale, extract.
From edpsciences: "I suggest that providing colonies with drone comb, as part of a program of controlling Varroa destructor without pesticides..." Work to prevent bees from doing what they want to do in growing drones in order to increase honey harvest?
The difference is in the beekeeper's philosophy of keeping. I've spent time with beeks who are out to make money on their hives. They love keeping bees and respect the process, but they're the same who tell me that bees won't draw comb without foundation and hives can't be kept without significant intervention on the beekeeper's part.
Yes, there are methods that provide the highest level of $$$ per hive possible just like there are methods of getting the most $$$ for beef, chicken, produce, fruit, etc. My free-range chickens cost more per pound/egg than commercial high-density methods, but I like that my chickens are healthier and seem happier. My heritage vegetables are more susceptible to disease and have a wide variation in size, but I think they taste better than commercial varieties.
I'll be surprised if I ever grow to more than 20 hives so I have no plan to move to extraction. Add to that a desire to harvest and sell wax and crush and strain seems pretty good to me. I know folks who are working hundreds of hives using commercial methods. I'm fine with them using whatever methods they prefer. I'll do what fits my style best. Am I a mad man for doing so?
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Everyone will be blessed by his own views.
I have no philosophy in beekeeping. I just do it.
To sell wax, as raw wax it has not much value. When I ask to make foundations from my own wax, its is about 3 $/kilo = 10 foundations in langstroth size.
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To sell wax, as raw wax it has not much value. When I ask to make foundations from my own wax, its is about 3 $/kilo = 10 foundations in langstroth size.
I can get about 10$ to 12$ for 1 lb (1/2 kilo) of bees wax
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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I can get about 10$ to 12$ for 1 lb (1/2 kilo) of bees wax
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I wonder how? How much is your foundations price to beekeeper?
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If you get $10 to $12 for a pound of wax (which is an excellent price, good job), what do you get for 8 pounds of honey, the equivalent of what a bee eats to make the one pound?
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i have never gotten drone comb in my honey supers. guess if they put honey in and not drones, it doesn't matter :evil:
the thing is, it doesn't make much sense to me to pull out the extractor for a couple shallow supers. if it does to you, that's just fine. this year i had lots to do so the extractor came out. it's just extra cleanup. even so, the combs that were funky still got cut out and we had cut comb....which is my preferred way to eat it anyway.
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I need to confess something to everyone. I have yet to wash the extractor for 3 whole weeks after I finished the last boxes. I know. But I was waiting for a warm day to get out the pressure washer (not a hot day) and wash everything and maybe the truck also. :-D
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bathtub.
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That is almost exactly how I cut them if I'm only taking a few frames out of a hive - the exception being that I make a vertical cut in the middle so the comb, in tumbling out falls neatly one piece at a time into the tray or bucket, instead of one uncontrollable slab.
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Here pressed wax foundation is 13 US $ /kg
If I sell raw wax to the foundatiion maker, the prise is 5 $
a wax 22 $/kg is 8 kg honey.
Retail honey proce is about 10 $/kg. 8 kg honey is 80 $ and as wax 22 $.
http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/ (http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/)
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>why would someone crush and strain?
Because a good extractor is in the realm of $1000.
I see bees build their own comb so much faster than foundation, that I do not believe that giving them foundation helps production at all. In fact I believe it slows down production. Now drawn comb is another matter, but again, it's a matter of scale...
"A comb honey beekeeper really needs, in addition to his bees and the usual apiary equipment and tools, only one other thing, and that is a pocket knife. The day you go into producing extracted honey, on the other hand, you must begin to think not only of an extractor, which is a costly machine used only a relatively minute part of the year, but also of uncapping equipment, strainers, settling tanks, wax melters, bottle filling equipment, pails and utensils galore and endless things. Besides this you must have a place to store supers of combs, subject to damage by moths and rodents and, given the nature of beeswax, very subject to destruction by fire. And still more: You must begin to think in terms of a whole new building, namely, a honey house, suitably constructed, supplied with power, and equipped....
"All this seems obvious enough, and yet time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life."
Expense of making wax
Richard Taylor on the expense of making wax:
"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."
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that I do not believe that giving them foundation helps production at all.
It has been researched so many times, but you do not believe. I do not believe natural combs.
When I started almost 50 years ago, my teacher told that when you put a swarm on ready combs, it gather honey awfully much.
But it is same where you do believe.
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swarms seem to be constipated with wax :-D in a one hour drive they will start making comb on the box lid. if i hive a 10 frame swarm, in one week they will have drawn out foundationless frames and started filling them. of course, flow is everything.
i had some honey supers this year with comb and some without. i saw no difference in the amount of honey from = size hives. i will say that one hive did make some messy comb and i should have known better because that hive has always been messy. other than that, drawn or not, they seemed to fill at the same rate.
finsky, i don't doubt your observations, but mine seem to be different. i also do not have a foundation maker around. i have to buy mine either through mail order or at the more expensive bee supply store. i have had really good luck with foundationless, so i don't hesitate to recommend it. if others use foundation, that's fine also.
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Here pressed wax foundation is 13 US $ /kg
If I sell raw wax to the foundatiion maker, the prise is 5 $
a wax 22 $/kg is 8 kg honey.
Retail honey proce is about 10 $/kg. 8 kg honey is 80 $ and as wax 22 $.
http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/ (http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/)
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and the market value of a 4X4 square of honey in the comb?
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and the market value of a 4X4 square of honey in the comb?
why?