Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => HONEYBEE REMOVAL => Topic started by: iddee on February 28, 2009, 04:05:26 pm
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Trap out setup
I like to make a scouting trip to the trap out location and prepare
the area prior to setting the trap. I will use lumber, plastic,
silicone caulk, whatever will work, to reduce their entrance down to
one hole of approx. 2 inches, or 2 inches X not more than 3/4 inch, if
the opening is in a corner. After choosing or making the cone, I will
measure from the ground to the bottom of the cone. Then I can plan on
what I will use for the platform. This one had an initial entrance of 12 in. X 3 feet of rotted away wood. I crammed towels, burlap, and 2 cans of great stuff in it. Bees will eat through great stuff, if it is more than 3/8 in thick, or doesn't have a hard substance between layers of it.
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee
/TRAP%20OUTS/bees034.jpg)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP%20OUTS/Storedpics001.jpg)
On the day of the setup, I will remove a frame of brood, WITH EGGS,
from my chosen hive, and place it in a warm, shaded area, like the cab
of my truck. On site, I set the platform, level from side to side,
tilted slightly to the front. I then set the catch box where the
"porch" area can be slid against the plywood cone mount, an inch or
two below the bottom of the wire cone.I want the bees to walk from the
cone mount to the box, not fly. Next, I place the frame of brood in
the catch box, with one empty frame between it and the side of the box
next to the structure.I mark and predrill 4 holes in the cone mount in
a position needed to secure the mount and cone to the structure, over
the colony entrance. I run a circle of silicone caulk around the hole
in the cone mount, so it will compress and seal when I mount it to the
wall. If it cannot be mounted with screws, I will hold or prop it
tightly to let the silicone caulk dry enough to hold it in place.
If it is in a corner, I will tack 3/8 to 1/2 in. thick strips to the
bottom of the mount, on 2 or 3 sides, as needed, to allow the dees to
exit under the mount and into the cone. If the strips are used on a
corner trap, I will put the silicone on the strips. Next, I will run a
bead of silicone caulk around the outer edge of the mount to ensure a
solid seal.
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP%20OUTS/S3600151.jpg)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP%20OUTS/Shoreline4.jpg)
At this time, I will stay in the area for 1 to 3 hours, talking to the
homeowner, showing them the bees are docile by putting my fingers
right up to them as they land at the base of the cone. "A returning
forager looking for the entrance will not sting". Doing my PR on all
honey bees, and looking for alternative entrances. If you can keep
them from finding another entrance for 48 hours, they doubtfully ever
will. If they do find one, you will find it is nearly impossible to
keep them from finding them from then on. The trapout will either be
greatly prolonged, or totally unfeasible to do. It is extremely
important to close all entrances the first time. I also instruct the
owner on what to look out for, depending on how comfortable he or she
is with the bees and to call me when they see certain signs. I return the next day for a 10 to 15 minute check, and if everything
is OK, I plan my next visit for one week later.
The position of the exit in the cone has no bearing on the trapout, as
we aren't catching the bees as they leave, but rather when they return
from the field, loaded with pollen and/or nectar. They will return to
the base of the cone, where they have always entered.
The relationship of the base of the cone to the entrance where the
brood frame sits is the detail you need to be conscious of, not the
exit.
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Great info, thanks for sharing. Keep it coming ;)
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I have a customer who wants a colony removed from a very large cottonwood. I delayed this from the fall to have a better chance at a low population. Entrance is at ground level. I am thinking about a similar trapout but after sealing the only entrance I intend to connect the original entrance to a hive body with a plastic tube into a custom bottom board and force them to transit the hive body to an upper entrance. Since they are still not very active due to the weather here I am hoping they will consider the hive body an additional space to their colony and expand into it. If I am lucky enough to get the queen to start laying in it I will put a cone on the tube and get most of the colony into hive body. If the queen doesn't move over I will install a cone, trapout, and requeen. Enticing with brood is my second option. I wonder if feeding in a second hive body would help or if the feeder would just be the food source for the original colony with no expansion.
Bruce
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Please come back and post the results. I am always looking for new info on any way of trapping.
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I have a customer who wants a colony removed from a very large cottonwood. I delayed this from the fall to have a better chance at a low population. Entrance is at ground level. I am thinking about a similar trapout but after sealing the only entrance I intend to connect the original entrance to a hive body with a plastic tube into a custom bottom board and force them to transit the hive body to an upper entrance. Since they are still not very active due to the weather here I am hoping they will consider the hive body an additional space to their colony and expand into it. If I am lucky enough to get the queen to start laying in it I will put a cone on the tube and get most of the colony into hive body. If the queen doesn't move over I will install a cone, trapout, and requeen. Enticing with brood is my second option. I wonder if feeding in a second hive body would help or if the feeder would just be the food source for the original colony with no expansion.
Bruce
trust me they wont consider it part of the hive.... a trapout is the only way (or cutout) they will travel thru your hive indefinatly and probably never even sart to fill it........ Been ther done that with old logs on several ocasions..... even added brood once and nothing... they let them die... USE the cone ....
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Iddee, you got a great post going on here, keep it coming, wow!!! My hat off to you. Have a beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi
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Iddee
OK. What if, instead of having the cone AT the entrance of your box, you cut a hole in the back or side of the box that the cone end will fit into, then the bees exit the cone into your hive, must travel thru the hive box to that entrance to exit? You see where I'm heading with this? I know some will bemoan cutting a hole in a hive body but if you use the same one for your cone-outs then no problem. Would this work?
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#1...A hive body with a hole in it.
#2...extra work
#3...Can't monitor the cone
#4...Can't get the homeowner to check and call when something changes
#5...Some trap outs yield 3 to 4 boxes of bees. Now there are 4 hive bodies with holes in them.
#6...extra work in set up
#7...My way works. Don't wanna fix what ain't broke.
#8...would have to move the colony to another hive, or drill yet another hive body for next trap
#9...cuz I don't wanna. :evil: :-D
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Iddee,
thank you for posting this how to. Will a trap out capture the queen?
SH
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Maybe one in a thousand. Read my first post. "Why do a trap out".
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Again thanks for taking the time for us.
When the bees are gone will the melting wax, running honey do more harm
to the homeowner than a cut out ? They will have to cut it out later ? Just no bees left ?
Regards
Mike
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There will be no honey left. Why would the wax melt? The house inside the wall is approx. 70 degrees. If it is 145 or more inside the wall, call the fire dept. and don't worry about the wax.
They won't have to cut it out later, it will just dry out to a papyrus like parchment and will do no harm.
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no honey left because its consumed or bees abscond with it ?
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I'll get to that in the following posts on monitoring and removing the cone, and other steps in the process.
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no honey left because its consumed or bees abscond with it ?
In the final phase, the bees in the catch box will rob out the honey to feed themselves. He'll explain next post as said.
Quote------ "What if, instead of having the cone AT the entrance of your box, you cut a hole in the back or side of the box that the cone end will fit into, then the bees exit the cone into your hive, must travel thru the hive box to that entrance to exit? You see where I'm heading with this? I know some will bemoan cutting a hole in a hive body but if you use the same one for your cone-outs then no problem. Would this work?"
If I may add my .02 here, with the cone end entering the catch box, you lose the ability to see what's going on. The home owner will not be able to provide visual feed back.
...JP
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Great Info Iddee! :)The pics really help to explain for us visual do it type learners! J
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The photos that go with this post are worth more than a thousand words. Thanks for taking the time to do this for us.
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What if, instead of having the cone AT the entrance of your box, you cut a hole in the back or side of the box that the cone end will fit into, then the bees exit the cone into your hive, must travel thru the hive box to that entrance to exit?
Stephen,
In my early days of trying to get the queen by "expanding" the nest, I tried something similar to what you are proposing. I put a 4" PVC pipe through the hive body with a cone mounted inside. It provided no more benefit than the method iddee is describing AND has all the associated issues he has stated. As you can see, it now resides in the bone pile waiting for another idea and possible use.
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/644-2/IMG_2299.jpg)
Good to think outside the box though, that is the only way to find improvements...
rob...
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What if I need to leave the deep above the cone by about a foot on the roof will that still work?
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Let us know if it does or doesn't. The bees will tell you the first 6 hours. If they aren't using the box in that time, then they won't.
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no honey left because its consumed or bees abscond with it ?
I know I'm a newby, but this seems obvious. There will be no honey left because, with no foragers returning, the remaining brood will deplete it. Any that leave to gather more will be trapped outside. The comb has no other option available than to become empty.
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The "Grail" if you will of a trap out is to get the Queen. Most simply do a split of their old hive and steal workers from the trapped hive. The hard work so many have invested is in finding a way to keep her as well as the workers.
With the cone trap as shown the Queen will in time, forced by the lack of food, abscond and fly away from the end of the cone. I and a couple others on another site are trying to use a dark tunnel to let the Queen move in comfort to the new hive. We are trying different setups and equipment with the hope of getting a process that is simple, easy to use, and still effective.
Hopefuly this summer someone gets it right.
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Wayne, you have set yourself up. :-* :-D
Now we are going to be watching closely for your follow-ups. I know if a dummy like me can find one successful way to do it, there's got to be a dozen more ways, and some better than mine. Together, we can find the best way. Welcome aboard.
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this will be a real interesting read and can't wait to see what happens.
G3
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I don't get many trap outs. Most often the homeowner is unwilling to give me the time to attempt one, leaving only a cutout or a spray job.
I have one in place now that I am watching.
The bees have accepted the hive and are moving through the tube in good numbers into and through the the hive. Foragers are returning to the bait hive and traffic is high.
The hope is that when the queen tries to abscond she will travel down the tube and decide to stay in the hive with her former room mates. The exit is deliberatly small to incourage this.
IF, this works and I get the queen, I will fine tune the trap to get a more portable and easy to use unit.
The goal is a single easy to setup unit flexible enough to fit most situations. The beek has only to choose a hive body that will fit the situation and install the trap cover with a ratchet strap or other method, and attach the tube to the existing exit to the nest.
Everyone needs a challenge now and then, this is mine. This and that warp drive gizmo.
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Iddee, did Wayne capture the queen when he said " the queen tries to abscond she will travel down the tube and decide to stay in the hive with her former room mates. The exit is deliberatly small to encourage this" ?
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If Wayne's plan works, I'll also do the same thing because I need the queen real bad.
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Wayne only started about 2 weeks ago. It takes 4 to 8 weeks to do a trapout. Maybe he will give updates as time goes by.
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iddee, wayne, jp, robbo, and all the rest. THANKS! iddee, these step by step posts are outstanding. The rest of u have all given pointers here, or elsewhere. I appreciate all of this. I have two trap outs waiting. I hafta find time to build more boxes etc. I have run out. I have been putting them off, because.....well, I needed directions. LOL hate to admit that in public, but LOL hafta. Now I have em. THANKS, again.
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Trap out setup
On the day of the setup, I will remove a frame of brood, WITH EGGS,
from my chosen hive, and place it in a warm, shaded area, like the cab
of my truck.
Iddee - Being a new beekeeper, I'm wondering when it is okay to remove a frame of brood. How many frames of brood/eggs will a strong hive have? I have what I consider a very strong hive, but being new, I'd hate to pull a frame of brood when that is what they need. Some of the brood frames are very full, others partial, and yet others just have a few. Would you take a full one? I have three trap outs that I'd like to do, but I certainly don't want to compromise my only strong hive to do it. I'm all ears!
dp
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a strong hive can give up one frame of brood and eggs without hurting it.
Set the first trap with it. 7 to 8 days later, you should have multiple capped queen cells. Cut one out and install it in the next trap out. Cut another one for the third trap.
OR
As long as you have 4 frames of brood or more left in the strong hive, it will stay strong. Set one trap weekly and it should supply you with 3 frames of eggs without hurting it. "one frame each week.
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There's a fellow that does this successfully up here in Virginia. He's actually got one going now and posted it on his blog. He uses pvc pipe or something, instead of the screened cone that folks use here, connecting it directly to the back of his hive.
He claims to have retrieved the queen more times then most. He wrote something about her coming out by week 3 or 4 because she needed water.
I'll post the link from work tomorrow (it's on my work email.)
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Here's the link : http://aspenhoneybees.blogspot.com/2010/05/funnel-setup-on-tree-hollow.html (http://aspenhoneybees.blogspot.com/2010/05/funnel-setup-on-tree-hollow.html)
This guy is in a beekeeping association with a friend of mine (so, I do not know him personally.) But, my buddy setup a trap out with this fellow's help about 8 or 9 days ago. It's still 'in progress', but they expect to have the queen before it is over.
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Interesting info. Thanks for the responses.
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I thought you were going to post a link to the successful guy's blog. I have known many who used that method, without success. I think Robo has one on his trash pile that he retired some time ago. Keep us posted on how this one works out.
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Unfortunately, the guy that uses this successfully (on the exact same tree as the one setup by the fellow in this blog, over the past years) is an old timer. I don't think he even has an email address...much less a blog. 'I don't need no computer to tend my bees...'
I can do you one better on keeping you up to date. I will be setting this system up on a tree within the next couple of weeks (the tree is in the backyard of a fellow that has some renovation going on - we decided to wait for them to finish the outside painting before I started my thing. I'll post pictures of the whole process and successes/failures thereof.
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Thanks... I'm sure it will be interesting.
For years, I heard trapping didn't work. I developed a way that it did work. I'm sure there are a number of other ways it will work. They just need to be developed. Maybe this way will be even better than mine.
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Yes, I too will be interested in seeing how this goes. The only trap-outs that I have had difficulty with where when I couldn't get the entrance of the trap hive close to the base of the cone as Iddee's method recommends. I'm not sure I understand how you will prevent the bees from returning to the tree.
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How do you make your cones? They look like you took a piece of screen and wrapped it in a way that it became conical. Do you then glue the overlap? How do you get it to stay in shape?
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Cut the hole in the back board first. Then wrap the wire as you say, into a cone. Push it into the hole until it stops. Trim it 1 inch outside the back of the board. Clip it so it will fold over and staple it to the back of the board. It will stay in place if not too large. For the extra large ones, I lace it together with wire. Frame wire works well.
PS... NOT screen. 1/8 in. hardware cloth. Screen will collapse and clog the exit.
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If you can keep them from finding another entrance for 48 hours, they doubtfully ever will. If they do find one, you will find it is nearly impossible to keep them from finding them from then on. The trapout will either be greatly prolonged, or totally unfeasible to do. It is extremely important to close all entrances the first time.
One detail I have been curious about, is how far from the current entrance do you seal off all visible gaps/potential alternative entrances? Is 1 metre/yard in all directions sufficient?
I understand that it will depend on the actual hive location compared to the entrance as well, but what is your rule of thumb?
Thanks
ML
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My rule of thumb is about 10 feet, but it has failed. maybe you better use your thumb.
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Thanks iddee, gives me a starting point to work from.
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very nice, I will be doing a trap out next week. The pictures helped alot
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I had 1 problem with my last trapout where the bees worked out how the cone worked!
They would land on the end of the cone and walk straight in the cone back into the house.
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4821/standardtrapoutcone.jpg) (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/standardtrapoutcone.jpg/) (http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4773/standardtrapoutconebees.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/standardtrapoutconebees.jpg/)
My solution to this was to place a second smaller cone over the end of the already installed cone, so that the bees would still land on the end of the cone, but it would direct them straight back out again. I have drawn some simple diagrams to show what I mean, and I think I might even make myself a modified 'double cone' to keep in my kit for future testing and use.
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9339/modifiedtrapoutcone.jpg) (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/modifiedtrapoutcone.jpg/) (http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/401/modifiedtrapoutconebees.jpg) (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/modifiedtrapoutconebees.jpg/)
Worked a treat!
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What was your first cone made out of?
How long was it?
How big was the hole in the end of the cone?
My answers would be.....#8 hardware cloth, about 12 inches long and just big enough for two drones to get out at the same time.
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Make sure there are wires sticking out from the end of the cone. The wire irritates the bees and they tire of it quickly. They do not like being poked!
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Yes, I too will be interested in seeing how this goes. The only trap-outs that I have had difficulty with where when I couldn't get the entrance of the trap hive close to the base of the cone as Iddee's method recommends. I'm not sure I understand how you will prevent the bees from returning to the tree.
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Just a thought...He must have a cone in the end of the PVC...otherwise they would return...a revolving door...no progress...I would think....No?
What ever happened..is it posted some where else?
Thanks,
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Looking for some help with a trap out. This is my first :)
Here is the situation - 3 story fake stone covered deck post. Bees are entering in a gap in the joists for deck #3. The post has a flagstone top. It about 2ft square and I think will have a metal post in the center. Don't want to do a cut out.
Here is my plan -
1) Remove the top stone and any chip board under it. This should give me a good look at what is happening inside the post.
2) I am then planning to cover the top of the post with plywood with my screen cone.
3) I will then place the trap out hive next to the cone and close all the other entrances.
4) Monitor
Questions -
1) Cone will be positioned vertical is this an issue and should I make it longer and bend it ?
2) Will giving the bees a new entrance be an issue?
Other thoughts or ideas?
Thanks
Chuck
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I think the cone straight up in the air would work just fine, if you are wanting to bend it at a 90 degree angle think of using a 4" pvc pipe fitting sitting on top of your plywood with the cone on the other end.
All entrances will have to blocked closed with the exception of the cone.
I am doing a trap out on a fake stone house right now and used the plywood with cone. Put foam padding between the plywood and the stone to take up the biggest gaps, took some skinny wooden strips (think frame wedges) and drove them in like pegs to fill deep cracks, took silicone caulk and went around the edges of the plywood and foam trying not to get too much on the stone itself, and all was held in place with tapcon screws.
Be sure to anchor the bait hive down with a ratchet strap.
(http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8025/006rkh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/006rkh.jpg/)
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(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/9283/0032vg.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/848/0032vg.jpg/)
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