Queen cells capped early

[yes2matt]

No pics because mosquitoes..

I pulled a couple frames from queen-mother hive to graft. I also stole their honey and the weather was changing so they were a little grumpy with me. After I grafted from those frames I didn't want to open that hive again and put them back. So I just put them into a couple 2-frame queen castle sections with another good frame of bees. Just in case my grafts don't take, I'll have something to fall back on.

That was Saturday about 2 pm. Now today, Monday at 8 pm, 54 hours later, those queen castle starter colonies have several (5-8) fully drawn, typical size, capped emergency cells on the frame. They also have some that look to be halfway done.

Is it because they chose older larvae? Will those be good queens? Should I cut them out so to keep the more typically developed cells coming along?

If it matters, it's been mid 70s at night, 80s on the day, Sunday it rained off and on all day so everyone stayed home. (I mean the bees)

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[iddee]

I would go in Wed., 4 days, and remove all capped cells. Then I would leave the rest to be capped Thurs. or later.

[TheHoneyPump]

Cells are capped on day 9 from egg.  The better developed queen is started from the youngest larvae which would be at day 4-5 from egg. That means the better cells to choose will be the one(s) being capped between 4 days and 5 days (or later) from when the brood frame was made queenless.
That is a long way of saying agree with Iddee, and shows the why.
Yes those capped cells are way early and would be from using old larvae. Look at the chart and call 4 Saturday. That means 9 is Thursday. So, per Iddee anything capped before Wednesday would not be your best choices and should be culled.  Any cells that are well developed and still open on Wednesday will be the best ones possible with they have to work with.

Hope that helps!

[yes2matt]

Ok thanks, that's what I was guessing. Why the bees would choose to raise queens from 6-7 day old larvae instead of the just-hatched worm next cell over? There were eggs in that frame if they could have waited a day.

Anyway let's hope for decent weather and a light workload Wednesday,  because my grafts didn't take too well. :/

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[Ben Framed]

Ok thanks, that's what I was guessing. Why the bees would choose to raise queens from 6-7 day old larvae instead of the just-hatched worm next cell over? There were eggs in that frame if they could have waited a day.

Anyway let's hope for decent weather and a light workload Wednesday,  because my grafts didn't take too well. :/

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> Ok thanks, that's what I was guessing. Why the bees would choose to raise queens from 6-7 day old larvae instead of the just-hatched worm next cell over?

That is a good question Matt. One I hope our more advanced beekeepers will have an answer. If no answer is available, it just goes to show their is still mysteries to be solved in beekeeping. If the older caped larva were to produce queens, would they produce drone laying queens only or good all around brood?  There is a lot that could be explored here.

[.30WCF]

Could they just be impatient and capped something that they would get a queen faster from? Animals get hit by cars and in all sorts of trouble. We just assume that the bees make the best choices. Maybe in their eyes, a bad queen is better than no queen and they will replace her at their leisure.

[Ben Framed]

Could they just be impatient and capped something that they would get a queen faster from? Animals get hit by cars and in all sorts of trouble. We just assume that the bees make the best choices. Maybe in their eyes, a bad queen is better than no queen and they will replace her at their leisure.

Could be thirty. Also Iddee told you to tear these down and keep the later ones and HoneyPump agreed. These two know their stuff when it comes to bees. We will see what they have to add if they come back with replies. I look forward to their wise input.

[iddee]

If you ask why the bees do things, you are in for a life time of questions. Anytime you say the bees will do a certain way, they will do the opposite the next time. It's hard enough to learn what we need to know, without trying to learn all the whys.

[Ben Framed]

If you ask why the bees do things, you are in for a life time of questions. Anytime you say the bees will do a certain way, they will do the opposite the next time. It's hard enough to learn what we need to know, without trying to learn all the whys.

I agree with every word you just stated. To be clear, my question was or should have been, what quality of queen will be produced when a frame is made queenless and we find capped cells just three days later? What will be the quality of this type queen if allowed to go on and develop be? Will they die in the cell? Will these cells go ahead and produce queens? If so will the queens be drone layers only? Is there a chance that these queens will produce enough fertile eggs to raise a good quality supersedure queen to replace her? I suppose these questions may seem non-viable but the benefit of  education, I wonder....

[The15thMember]

Could they just be impatient and capped something that they would get a queen faster from?

This was my guess.  They know they are vulnerable without a queen, and the quicker the route to a laying one the better. 

If you ask why the bees do things, you are in for a life time of questions. Anytime you say the bees will do a certain way, they will do the opposite the next time. It's hard enough to learn what we need to know, without trying to learn all the whys.

Although this of course is also true.  But I'd sign up for a lifetime of questions any day.  I'm sure I'll get a few answers along the way. 

[.30WCF]

Could they just be impatient and capped something that they would get a queen faster from? Animals get hit by cars and in all sorts of trouble. We just assume that the bees make the best choices. Maybe in their eyes, a bad queen is better than no queen and they will replace her at their leisure.

Could be thirty. Also Iddee told you to tear these down and keep the later ones and HoneyPump agreed. These two know their stuff when it comes to bees. We will see what they have to add if they come back with replies. I look forward to their wise input.

Are we doing this again?


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[Ben Framed]

Could they just be impatient and capped something that they would get a queen faster from? Animals get hit by cars and in all sorts of trouble. We just assume that the bees make the best choices. Maybe in their eyes, a bad queen is better than no queen and they will replace her at their leisure.

Could be thirty. Also Iddee told you to tear these down and keep the later ones and HoneyPump agreed. These two know their stuff when it comes to bees. We will see what they have to add if they come back with replies. I look forward to their wise input.

Are we doing this again?


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I am afraid I do not understand your question. Doing what again?

[.30WCF]

Could they just be impatient and capped something that they would get a queen faster from? Animals get hit by cars and in all sorts of trouble. We just assume that the bees make the best choices. Maybe in their eyes, a bad queen is better than no queen and they will replace her at their leisure.

Could be thirty. Also Iddee told you to tear these down and keep the later ones and HoneyPump agreed. These two know their stuff when it comes to bees. We will see what they have to add if they come back with replies. I look forward to their wise input.

Are we doing this again?


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I am afraid I do not understand your question. Doing what again?

The thing where I?m wrong and stupid for having an opinion. That thing.


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[Ben Framed]

The thing where I?m wrong and stupid for having an opinion. That thing.

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30 I have no idea what you are talking about. What has been said or ask that has lead you to such a conculioion?

[TheHoneyPump]

Ok thanks, that's what I was guessing. Why the bees would choose to raise queens from 6-7 day old larvae instead of the just-hatched worm next cell over? There were eggs in that frame if they could have waited a day.

Anyway let's hope for decent weather and a light workload Wednesday,  because my grafts didn't take too well. :/

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When put into emergency panic mode it makes sense that they would start with what is right under their feet.  If the colony is strong enough they will start a bunch of cells of what seems like random locations. As time passes they cull some of those cells themselves.  In other words as they get better cells going they may, and do, go tear down runty cells, .. sometimes .. not always .. it depends .. ;)   Those have been my observations.   
Older larvae do still make good queens, but the younger larvae have more time to develop and result in better queens with more vitality and are longer lived.
Now if as the beekeeper and caretaker of the hive you want to do your part to steer them towards the best possible outcome (as best as we know it to be), then you would go with Iddee and keep only the open cells or just barely about to be capped cells on Wednesday. Removing those early capped ones.

Hope that helps!

[yes2matt]

Ok I got it done. Breaks this bear's heart to cull queen cells.

When I asked "why" it was in the spirit of a father-of-twelve-year-old-girl. Who occasionally thinks "that was stupid" but asks instead "why did you choose that?" Because sometimes there is something to be learned.

Edit to add: THP you bring up a good point, that our shepherding the bees is a genuine conversation. We are observing and learning (and sometimes I suspect they are communicating) and the bees have access to information we don't. Pheromones,  changes in nectar and pollen, solar and lunar cycles and probably zodiac patterns. We have access to information that they don't,  what other hives are doing, what to expect next month for changes in forage, what the bear-in-flip-flops is intending for their future as a colony. Also what other beekeepers are doing and have done. So while it may seem futile, I think it's generally good practice to approach the bees with a question mark.

[Ben Framed]

Matt may I ask how involved is your youngster? I think it is great that you two are keeping bees together. Sure; ask away, I do as you will read above! lol  These questions are direct spin off from you post about capped brood in just three days after your work. I was very surprised. The questions I ask in reply 4 and 8 are strictly food from thoughts, stemming from your particular situation.   

[yes2matt]

"kids these days" don't want to do anything that isn't on a screen.

I've got a picture of MB teaching her to graft at Beefest a couple years ago but she's not too involved now. She doesn't know that she's gonna have to pay her way thru school, and keeping bees will do it. (ha, that's like the bees not knowing the bear is going to steal all their honey and split them into mating nucs next week)

[Michael Bush]

I have always figured the bees know what they are doing.  If they did cap some that were too old when they started, they will get rid of them later.

The experts on emergency cells:
http://bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm#emergencyqueensquote