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Author Topic: Bee Vac discussions  (Read 859 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2021, 11:14:19 am »
I would also like to tell everyone that the inventor of the Colorado Vac is very receptive to answering questions about his innovation. He will also take phone calls. We have spoken and exchanged several emails before and after I purchased his machine.  He can be reached at guysemail@aol.com. Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.

2Sox, I want to say I have not taken the opportunity to talk to the Colorado vac man. I build my home vac on the principle of the peg board of his unique incorporated pegboard application. I can not speak for nor have I spoken for the Colorado vac, but only for my homebuilt vac. But, ff I have helped explain his vac pegboard situation and he agrees as to its use and function for his vac as I have described for my homebuilt job, and if, I have helped him in any way he is free to contact me for hire as director of sales for his vac company! lol.  If my application of the peg board is different than his remember my vac is home built with a different type motor which I modified by the seat of my pants, (A shop vac brand motor). Most likely other differences as well. That is why I referred to my vac as the Colorado (type) vac. Not a copy; I could not honesty and in fairness to Mr
colorado claim his superior design. There may be several differences.

The same can go for our friend Robo. lol; I will go to work for him as well. I like the unique principles both of these vacs!
The next time I need a vac, if I ever do, I think I will just buy one. Too much trouble building one and even more trouble explaining it! lol

PS just kidding about the sales jobs fellows.  :cheesy:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 12:26:28 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2021, 12:06:53 pm »
Adding I have, so far, really enjoyed this discussion. I hope the other posters have as well. Maybe we have all learned more about bee vacs! And who knows; Maybe we will be treated to hearing from the Colorado bee vac inventor that 2Sox has told up about?




                                                                                                                                                                                .
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 12:34:36 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 09:04:30 am »
Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
One reason is heat as Robo stated in post #4.  If the regulated air passes through the catch box the bees will always have a supply of cool air no matter what unless you have it completely shut off.  The other issue is oxygen.  If for some reason the hose gets plugged it will only take a few seconds for the bees to have no oxygen at all.  With the regulator in the catch box this can never happen.

Quote
What part do you mean when you refer to the nozzle? Thanks.
The nozzle is the attach piece at the end of the hose.  Usually it is reduced or shaped like a crevice tool.

Quote
Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.

He is certainly welcome but he must understand that my comments are meant to be constructive not degrading.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 10:12:59 am »
Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
One reason is heat as Robo stated in post #4.  If the regulated air passes through the catch box the bees will always have a supply of cool air no matter what unless you have it completely shut off.  The other issue is oxygen.  If for some reason the hose gets plugged it will only take a few seconds for the bees to have no oxygen at all.  With the regulator in the catch box this can never happen.

Brian with my home build vac over heating is not a concern. If by some chance the electrical source were to fail in the middle of a swarm catch or a cutout, I can simply remove the vacuum section of the set up and the entire top of the catch box is open screen. Though designed a little differently, I think the same can be done with the Bushkill Bee Vac (Robo vac). As his also has a framed in, removable, complete top screen covering the entire top of his catch box. Again If that is wrong Robo correct me please.

So overheating is never a concern for me. Actually, I remove the vac section when the job is complete for the hot day ride home. The bees with all that open screen could not overheat even if they wanted to lol. If it is an unseasonable cooler day, I have placed a solid top over the catch box, leaving a few inches space on the side for heat escape on the ride home. This keeps the bees as comfortable as possible, with less stress on the colony as possible, in my way of thinking and theory. It has never failed me. Adding, I have never lost a colony by these methods.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 10:45:17 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 10:59:33 am »
Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
One reason is heat as Robo stated in post #4.  If the regulated air passes through the catch box the bees will always have a supply of cool air no matter what unless you have it completely shut off.  The other issue is oxygen.  If for some reason the hose gets plugged it will only take a few seconds for the bees to have no oxygen at all.  With the regulator in the catch box this can never happen.

Quote
What part do you mean when you refer to the nozzle? Thanks.
The nozzle is the attach piece at the end of the hose.  Usually it is reduced or shaped like a crevice tool.

Quote
Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.

He is certainly welcome but he must understand that my comments are meant to be constructive not degrading.

Thanks for you reply, Ace. 

Regarding O2; on both the Bushkill and the Colorado, there is a screen covering the entire top area/surface of the catch boxes. They were designed to be easily exposed when the vac is stopped; it takes literally a couple of seconds. In addition, each has a door that can be closed to prevent bee escape, when the vac motor is shut off.  If you have seen the videos on each site, this is demonstrated.

I have discussed my own suggestions with Guy - the Colorado inventor - who is very approachable. He listens respectfully and offers his opinions. I?m certain he would take constructive suggestions in the spirit they are given.

Edit: Another thing about O2 in both units.  If you are familiar with the design of each - as I explained above - there is immediate ability to ventilate and thereby cool the bees. Bushkill: Shut the motor and lift it off. This exposes the open screened area immediately. Some people remove the slide out when the cut out is over, some people don?t. The bees are still adequately ventilated when the the motor is removed. I always merge the bees with the brood before I leave the site and either option has always been fine

 Colorado, the same. Shut the motor off and lift the top off with the attached vac motor which exposes the entire screened catch box. I?ve done this countless times with no issues. However, on this unit you must remove the motor with cover immediately when vacuuming is done.

One of the VERY big advantages that Bushkill has over the Colorado is the ability to place empty frames inside the catch box.  This enables the bees to hang from the top bars instead of the screen. Guy the inventor of the Colorado even warns in his video that if for any reason you stop the vacuuming and the bees start to clump on the screen, you MUST shake them down before you start up again or they will get sucked through the screen into the pegboard and into the motor itself.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 11:38:38 am by 2Sox »
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2021, 11:51:19 am »
I do not have or want a (claim to fame) with my homebuilt colorado (style) vac. I would not build and market one because if I were to do so, I might be in violation of his copyright even if I did want to, (and I do not want too). My vac is similar to his, especially the peg board idea. Even if my vac was totally different, I would not want to market and sell. My need for a bee vac is what led me to making my own. I would not wish to build another as stated in a previous post. My simple need and the added luxury of having a bee vac has been the most important tool; (along with my oxalic vaporizer), I have as a hobby beekeeper. I recommend every beekeeper with at least 4-5 hives having one!

I have never seen an authentic Colorado Bee Vac, Nor an authentic Robo/Bushkill vac. Only in videos and pictures. Though improvements may be possible on these differently designed vacs, colorado and bushkill, I can not see how either could be improved upon to be any better than what they are now, as what they were designed for. I am of the opinion these vacs are tops. Like Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. Or Chevrolet, Vs Ford and Dodge. Just my opinion.

Future projects for me? I am thinking a portable bee lift/hive mover, will be my next project to add to my important beekeeping tools. I have posted topics about these as well as videos. Will I buy or build my own? Probably build my own, again for my own personal needs and added luxury of the benefit having and using it. (A back saver from my understanding). Later probably saying "If i needed another one, I would recommend just buying it lol" I am sure it will be a lot of work and trouble gathering supplies and the added trouble of putting it all together! And, will I want to become a hive lift salesman after the project is completed? No just as I have not desire to become a bee vac salesman. lol :cheesy:





 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:46:43 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2021, 12:03:18 pm »
I do not have or want a (claim to fame) with my homebuilt colorado (style) vac. I would not build and market one because if I were to do so, I might be in violation of his copyright even if I did want to, (and I do not want too). My vac is similar to his, especially the peg board idea. Even if my vac was totally different, I would not want to market and sell. My need for a bee vac is what led me to making my own. I would not wish to build another as stated in a previous post. My simple need and the added luxury of having a bee vac has been the most important tool; (along with my oxalic vaporizer), I have as a hobby beekeeper. I recommend every beekeeper with at least 4-5 hives having one!

I have never seen an authentic Colorado Bee Vac, Nor an authentic Robo/Bushkill vac. Only in videos and pictures. Though improvements may be possible on these differently designed vacs, colorado and bushkill, I can not see how either could be improved upon to be any better than what they are now, as what they were designed for. I am of the opinion these vacs are tops. Like Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. Or Chevrolet, Vs Ford and Dodge. Just my opinion.

Future projects for me? I am thinking a portable bee lift/hive mover, will be my next project to add to my important beekeeping tools. I have posted topics about these as well as videos. Will I buy or build my own? Probably build my own, again for my own personal needs and added luxury of the benefit having and using it. (A back saver from my understanding). Later probably saying "If i needed another one, I would recommend just buying it lol" I am sure it will be a lot of work and trouble gathering supplies and the added trouble of putting it all together! And, will I want to become a hive lift salesman after the project is completed? No just as I have not desire to become a bee vac salesman. lol :cheesy:

Adding after reading your last post 2Sox I will not dispute or discourage you about your suggestions and input of helping Mr Colorado improve his vac. You probably see something I do not see in that regard.  Thanks...
 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:47:49 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2021, 04:07:19 pm »
I do not have or want a (claim to fame) with my homebuilt colorado (style) vac. I would not build and market one because if I were to do so, I might be in violation of his copyright even if I did want to, (and I do not want too). My vac is similar to his, especially the peg board idea. Even if my vac was totally different, I would not want to market and sell. My need for a bee vac is what led me to making my own. I would not wish to build another as stated in a previous post. My simple need and the added luxury of having a bee vac has been the most important tool; (along with my oxalic vaporizer), I have as a hobby beekeeper. I recommend every beekeeper with at least 4-5 hives having one!

I have never seen an authentic Colorado Bee Vac, Nor an authentic Robo/Bushkill vac. Only in videos and pictures. Though improvements may be possible on these differently designed vacs, colorado and bushkill, I can not see how either could be improved upon to be any better than what they are now, as what they were designed for. I am of the opinion these vacs are tops. Like Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. Or Chevrolet, Vs Ford and Dodge. Just my opinion.

Future projects for me? I am thinking a portable bee lift/hive mover, will be my next project to add to my important beekeeping tools. I have posted topics about these as well as videos. Will I buy or build my own? Probably build my own, again for my own personal needs and added luxury of the benefit having and using it. (A back saver from my understanding). Later probably saying "If i needed another one, I would recommend just buying it lol" I am sure it will be a lot of work and trouble gathering supplies and the added trouble of putting it all together! And, will I want to become a hive lift salesman after the project is completed? No just as I have not desire to become a bee vac salesman. lol :cheesy:

Adding after reading your last post 2Sox I will not dispute or discourage you about your suggestions and input of helping Mr Colorado improve his vac. You probably see something I do not see in that regard.  Thanks...

Thanks, Ben.  We had a brief conversation about my idea regarding placing a sheet of thin foam standard AC filter between the screen on the catch box, and the pegboard on the top with the vac motor. Based on my experience with my other two vac models, I wanted to prevent any dust or debris to foul the vac motor. (This filter does cut down on the suction force slightly but this is easily compensated for with the valve.). He didn?t feel the filter was necessary.  So we respectfully disagreed.

A criticism I have of the Colorado system is the ball valve; It is extremely hard to turn. I?ve used several lubricants but nothing seems to improve this.

I made another minor alteration/addition to this system.  I placed a piece of 'hardware cloth? over the air intake of the vac motor; this to prevent stray bees from getting sucked in. Both the Owens and Bushkill have this built into their systems and it?s definitely needed.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2021, 04:46:41 pm »
> I made another minor alteration/addition to this system.  I placed a piece of 'hardware cloth? over the air intake of the vac motor; this to prevent stray bees from getting sucked in. Both the Owens and Bushkill have this built into their systems and it?s definitely needed.

Thanks 2Sox. This is another place where my home built vac differs. My intake is not set up where bees can reach it or have access to it. which leads me to another tip for anyone who catches swarms with their vac.. let me explain, I vac a few and move my inlet end of the vac hose fitting to another spot on the ball of bees and vac more until all possible are in the vac.

The Tip;  I notice every time I do one of these retrievals, it is almost written when I know the queen has entered the catch box, stray bees from the swarm which are not many, can apparently smell her in the air coming out of the vac exhaust. They always attempt to go in the out door so to speak. Which is impossible. But they smell her and give it a good try. They try to hover the exhaust area but to no avail; When they try to enter, naturally the vac exhaust wind blows them right back away lol it?s a funny site. After I finish the vacuuming of the (Limb area) where this swarm was located, I simply turn the hose to the exhaust area and pick up the few excess bees there, Which is not a lot I just hate leaving them behind lol
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2021, 05:13:39 pm »

The only simple yet unique purpose of the peg board is to assure an even, suction of pressure, throughout every square inch of the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long  9' tall catch box.  The peg board can be viewed as a regulator if you will. No matter where the bee is in the open catch box, it has little to no strain from the vac itself because every inch of the inside of the catch box is at an even regulated suction pull. In theory, there is no one part of the catch box that has more suction pull than the other.
Ugh, I answered this in the morning and moved away from my computer before hitting the post button.
Here goes. By the laws of physics on fluids the pressure cannot be different in the catch box if there was nothing, screen or pegboard between the motor and catchbox.  It is the laws of physic that you need to argue otherwise.  Go back to your compressor the pressure in the tank is equal anywhere in the tank.  As a hole it can increase or decrease but what ever it is it is.  You and the inventor are arriving at a conclusion by intuition not scientific fact.  I am convinced that this confusion is because you lack the understanding between pressure and flow.  If you continue to believe they are the same then you will not understand what is really happening.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2021, 05:34:46 pm »

So overheating is never a concern for me.
This goes for 2sox also.  The heat and lack of O2 that I speak of is only a problem when the motor is on while the hose is plugged.  I lack the experience to know if this is a real problem or not.  All I can say is if this does happen for some reason the bees have no air.  It will happen in like a sec and a half.  Not a long time so it better not be minutes before you turn off the motor.  By turning off the motor they can get oxygen back through the motor.  No real need to take it off.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2021, 06:10:44 pm »

The only simple yet unique purpose of the peg board is to assure an even, suction of pressure, throughout every square inch of the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long  9' tall catch box.  The peg board can be viewed as a regulator if you will. No matter where the bee is in the open catch box, it has little to no strain from the vac itself because every inch of the inside of the catch box is at an even regulated suction pull. In theory, there is no one part of the catch box that has more suction pull than the other.
Ugh, I answered this in the morning and moved away from my computer before hitting the post button.
Here goes.   It is the laws of physic that you need to argue otherwise.  Go back to your compressor the pressure in the tank is equal anywhere in the tank.  As a hole it can increase or decrease but what ever it is it is.  You and the inventor are arriving at a conclusion by intuition not scientific fact.  I am convinced that this confusion is because you lack the understanding between pressure and flow.  If you continue to believe they are the same then you will not understand what is really happening.

> By the laws of physics on fluids the pressure cannot be different in the catch box if there was nothing, screen or pegboard between the motor and catchbox.

Actually I have a great understanding of pressure and flow in both instances, air compressor as you describe and now bee vacs and pegboard as I describe. 
The difference in my application is; the same low suction pressure which is applied in my bee vac circumstance, (with or without the pegboard), agreeing with you. Now, adding the right size Pegboard NOW gives an evenly re-distributed, divirted, if you will, evenly placed, maybe the word detoured may work better, suction throughout the length and width of the catch box 16" wide by 19 7/8" long, because of this added use of pegboard is also 16" wide by 19 7/8" long placed above the catch box. The pegboard affords this even pull of suction from any place in the catchbox because of the hundreds of tiny peg hole openings, each doing its part to allow X amount of suction through. Giving a measure of even suction through out the catchbox.

Brian, I sure hope this helps you understand. lol
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2021, 07:59:08 pm »

So overheating is never a concern for me.
This goes for 2sox also.  The heat and lack of O2 that I speak of is only a problem when the motor is on while the hose is plugged.  I lack the experience to know if this is a real problem or not.  All I can say is if this does happen for some reason the bees have no air.  It will happen in like a sec and a half.  Not a long time so it better not be minutes before you turn off the motor.  By turning off the motor they can get oxygen back through the motor.  No real need to take it off.

Brian, I have not had trouble with my bees overheating. If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section. I googled bees overhearing after being vacuumed after a cutout. Here is what I found. 2013 It looks like all roads lead back to here, beemaster.  :grin: The following is just a sample of things that can go wrong. I have not experienced these negative experiences. I do not think when Robo vac is used as purposed, it does not either. I did not read the entire thread only the first two post.

And I quote:
I done a cutout yesterday and I'm having problems with the bees getting wet within a minute or two of sucking them into my bee vac and dying. I have the one like Cindy Bee used with the plastic bucket and the box top that comes off. If there is an better way or something I can change I am open to suggestions. I had no problems earlier in the year.

Sounds like they are overheating, a common issue with bucket type bee vacs.   Best you can do is not shut the vac off (keep air moving through it)  and remove the screen cage as soon as you're done.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2021, 08:55:32 am »
If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section.
Phil, you are still stuck on the idea of the vac being off.  I am talking about overheating or suffocating when the vac is on not off.
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2021, 09:43:39 am »

So overheating is never a concern for me.
This goes for 2sox also.  The heat and lack of O2 that I speak of is only a problem when the motor is on while the hose is plugged.  I lack the experience to know if this is a real problem or not.  All I can say is if this does happen for some reason the bees have no air.  It will happen in like a sec and a half.  Not a long time so it better not be minutes before you turn off the motor.  By turning off the motor they can get oxygen back through the motor.  No real need to take it off.

I get what you mean.  But because of the design of these vacs, even with the hose plugged - which is NOT a real world scenario - the bees will continue to get fresh air, and NOT overheat. There are generous air inlets and the motors have air outlets and circulation is continuous. It is only when the motor is stopped and the bees are inside the cage/catch box that the danger begins. The screen must be exposed and open and the cage released or the bees will overheat.

Thats why I never turn off the vacs during the entire cutout.  I believe I spoke about this in the other thread. 

Stopping the motor mid-cut also also presents the danger of bee migration and possible escape into and through the hose. If the bees are crawling into the hose and the motor is turned back on, the bees are drawn back in too fast and this can kill them.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 10:45:33 am by 2Sox »
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2021, 10:19:59 am »
Thanks 2Sox for explaining.

If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section.
Phil, you are still stuck on the idea of the vac being off.  I am talking about overheating or suffocating when the vac is on not off.


I was not stuck, I simply did not understand your question because I had already covered that part on the other topic.. The video by The Walls Bee Man that I posted for your benefit exhibiting the rigid "brand"  shop vac converted to now being of duel use or purpose as both shop vac and bee vac, the video explained its function of dual purpose, a shop vac and a bee vac. If I'm not mistaken, overheating in that type of vac was discussed. But to give you the benefit of doubt it might not have been in that particular video. I have not watched his, (those), videos completely through in years. 

« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 08:32:36 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Robo

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2021, 10:38:52 am »

Brian, I have not had trouble with my bees overheating. If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section. I googled bees overhearing after being vacuumed after a cutout. Here is what I found. 2013 It looks like all roads lead back to here, beemaster.  :grin: The following is just a sample of things that can go wrong. I have not experienced these negative experiences. I do not think when Robo vac is used as purposed, it does not either. I did not read the entire thread only the first two post.


Glad you have not had overheating issues and hope you never do.  However it IS a possibility. Many people feel foolish when issues arise and bees get killed in a situation they could have prevented and therefore don't necessarily make it public knowledge,  so I'm not surprised you didn't find more.  I killed bees from overheating in my early cut-out days using the old box in a box bee vacs and people continue to kill bees via overheating on a regular basis.

There are many situations out there that this can happen and having a plan in your pocket to "shut off" or whatever when a hose clog happens doesn't necessarily prevent bee loss.   It is like saying I would never drive into a ditch because when I see I'm heading for the ditch I will turn the steering wheel to avoid it.   OK, seems like a reasonable idea but yet how many people drive into ditches?   

You are 20ft up on a ladder neck deep in a removal and you need both hands and set the vac down and it sucks up a rag,  chunk of insulation,  or just sucks to the wall.   Best case is you notice and now have to potentially do something with the honey laden comb that is dripping in your hands and then climb down 20ft of ladder to deal with it.   Worse case is you don't notice and continue on with that sticky comb and the next, and the next and go back to use the vacuum 5, 10, .... minutes later and realize there is no suction.

Even a more probable case is you suck off a clump of festooning bees and it clogs the hose and now must climb down the ladder and deal with it,  it all takes precious time.    Or simply drop the hose and it sucks to the ground,  once again down the ladder.

Point is most bee vac will work under ideal situations,  but unfortunately doing removals is rarely in ideal situations.   Some bee vacs are better than others when dealing with overheating.  Bucket types are the worse because they are a small volume and bees need to spread out to cool themselves when hot.   For the most part it is a learned discipline on how many bees you can suck up with a bucket vac before changing cages as there is no visible way to see how full it is.  I strongly discourage using bucket vacs,  they kill more bees that all other bee vac designs combined.

I have multiple customers in Texas that have tried many different bee vacs and could never get past overheating until they got my vac.    Now they put a dawn comb filled with water in the vac before starting and have overcome their issues.

There is no one perfect bee vac and it all comes down to the risk you can afford to take.   Everyone's situation and risks are different.  I'm sure there are many people that the scenarios I describe above are not applicable.   But there are also many people that they are.   I have a ton of nuisance wildlife folks that deal with these situation on a daily basis.  Hobbyist needs are vastly different than that of professionals.

Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box.   Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.

As always, if it is working for you keep doing it ..... :-)
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2021, 11:23:54 am »

Brian, I have not had trouble with my bees overheating. If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section. I googled bees overhearing after being vacuumed after a cutout. Here is what I found. 2013 It looks like all roads lead back to here, beemaster.  :grin: The following is just a sample of things that can go wrong. I have not experienced these negative experiences. I do not think when Robo vac is used as purposed, it does not either. I did not read the entire thread only the first two post.


Glad you have not had overheating issues and hope you never do.  However it IS a possibility. Many people feel foolish when issues arise and bees get killed in a situation they could have prevented and therefore don't necessarily make it public knowledge,  so I'm not surprised you didn't find more.  I killed bees from overheating in my early cut-out days using the old box in a box bee vacs and people continue to kill bees via overheating on a regular basis.

There are many situations out there that this can happen and having a plan in your pocket to "shut off" or whatever when a hose clog happens doesn't necessarily prevent bee loss.   It is like saying I would never drive into a ditch because when I see I'm heading for the ditch I will turn the steering wheel to avoid it.   OK, seems like a reasonable idea but yet how many people drive into ditches?   

You are 20ft up on a ladder neck deep in a removal and you need both hands and set the vac down and it sucks up a rag,  chunk of insulation,  or just sucks to the wall.   Best case is you notice and now have to potentially do something with the honey laden comb that is dripping in your hands and then climb down 20ft of ladder to deal with it.   Worse case is you don't notice and continue on with that sticky comb and the next, and the next and go back to use the vacuum 5, 10, .... minutes later and realize there is no suction.

Even a more probable case is you suck off a clump of festooning bees and it clogs the hose and now must climb down the ladder and deal with it,  it all takes precious time.    Or simply drop the hose and it sucks to the ground,  once again down the ladder.

Point is most bee vac will work under ideal situations,  but unfortunately doing removals is rarely in ideal situations.   Some bee vacs are better than others when dealing with overheating.  Bucket types are the worse because they are a small volume and bees need to spread out to cool themselves when hot.   For the most part it is a learned discipline on how many bees you can suck up with a bucket vac before changing cages as there is no visible way to see how full it is.  I strongly discourage using bucket vacs,  they kill more bees that all other bee vac designs combined.

I have multiple customers in Texas that have tried many different bee vacs and could never get past overheating until they got my vac.    Now they put a dawn comb filled with water in the vac before starting and have overcome their issues.

There is no one perfect bee vac and it all comes down to the risk you can afford to take.   Everyone's situation and risks are different.  I'm sure there are many people that the scenarios I describe above are not applicable.   But there are also many people that they are.   I have a ton of nuisance wildlife folks that deal with these situation on a daily basis.  Hobbyist needs are vastly different than that of professionals.

Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box.   Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.

As always, if it is working for you keep doing it ..... :-)

Robo,

Thanks for this generous response.  The issues you write about have come up occasionally for me, but I?m able to address them pretty fast because I NEVER do cutouts on a ladder and I never do them alone.  I mean never.  In my opinion and in my experience - and I mean no insult to anyone who does - it is extremely unwise to work alone - AND dangerous.


I always work with two others - one who is handy with tools and knows building structures (contractor) and one assists me directly. We set up an assembly line like system. The contractor takes things apart and exposes the colony, then an assistant and myself take over. When working on a scaffolding in the heat of the summer, we take many breaks for hydration and such but the work is continuous because there are three of us.

There are times that an interior cutout is so straightforward that I will work with only one assistant.

If a cutout is very high, a client is required to get a scaffolding erected or a boom lift. I am able to arrange either for them but they are responsible for the cost. This is all in my contract.

The other reason I can avoid many of the issues you describe - and I mentioned this before - is that I never use a hose longer that 8-10 feet. From my experience, long hoses are a disaster and kill bees. This is a rule that has no exceptions for me.

If a cutout is not high enough for a scaffold, we will work on a ladder but if the standard hose from the Colorado, or a Shop Vac stock hose cannot easily reach, THAT is the work for a bucket vac.   I always bring two vac systems to every cutout and the Owens is always one of them - along with 3 cages. (You are right. You need to know how many bees you can fit into a cage so you can replace when one gets too full. Someday, they?ll make plexiglass buckets.)




« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 11:38:26 am by 2Sox »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2021, 11:24:15 am »
There are generous air inlets and the motors have air outlets and circulation is continuous.
We differ greatly here.  If there is no other port like the regulator supplying air to the catch box there not only is no air circulation (flow) but there is no air period.  The vacuum motor creates a partial vacuum and that by definition removes the air (oxygen) from the catch box when the hose is plug.  This is real, not make believe.  Most shop vacs run in the range of 100cfm.  If the space in the catchbox and hose is about 2 cu ft then most of the air is gone in 1.5 seconds.  I like to see a person get down a ladder in 1.5 sec.  It is a question of how long the bees can live without breathing.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Acebird

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Re: Bee Vac discussions
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2021, 11:39:11 am »
[
Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box.   Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.

Exactly, having never done a cut out I know this is true.  Especially when you are 30-40 feet away from the vacuum source.  Maybe 8 ft away not as critical but still a risk.
The second thing I will add because Jim mentioned the bees puking.  When the regulator is in the catch box there is less variation of the "pressure" (not talking about flow now) in the catch box.  Maybe the fluctuations of pressure while you are sucking up bees causes the bees to get sick.  I don't know but it is a possibility of why it happens.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it