Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Acebird on June 08, 2021, 01:09:23 pm
-
For those interested in the Colorado Bee Vac that Ben described, here is the website:
https://www.coloradobeerescue.com
Here is the Bushkill:
https://www.beevac.com
The above quote comes from 2sox's post on another topic.
I have looked at the two systems and I have comments. The Colorado system has a valve on the vacuum head and I didn't see any adjustable "regulator" on the Bushkill model. Did I miss it? I am not thrilled about where the valve is located on the Colorado brand. In my view it should be located on the catch box. The reason being if the hose should ever get plugged at least you will have some air getting to the majority of the bees so they don't overheat or suffocate. Both systems have a screen between the vacuum head and the bees so in my view the peg board doesn't have any value.
Looking at the Bushkill video in action it appears to me that the air flow is greatly reduced at the nozzle. And the nozzle is connected to a 2 1/2 in hose which means the air flow will be even less in the hose and almost nothing in the catch box.
edited to give credit where credit is do.
-
Actually I was not describing the Colorado vac but my home build Colorado (type) vac.
Post by 2Sox.
Ben,
EXCELLENT post. Extremely clear. Thank you. And I had not known the reason for the holes and the peg board before you described it here. Very logical and scientific. Thank you for that. For those interested in the Colorado Bee Vac that Ben described, here is the website:
https://www.coloradobeerescue.com
Here is the Bushkill:
https://www.beevac.com
-
I am not familiar enough with the brushkill (RoBo) to answer. I can say I have only heard good things about it as watching videos where folks are using it, and using it regularly. The video of that great vac, which I posted describes the vac in detail. The fellow which posted the video had no dog in the hunt with RoBo to my knowledge. His subscribers were so impressed with this vac, that MANY kept asking him questions about this vac, so he made the good video explaining the RoBo vac out of kindness. I am sure it has a pressure relief. I can?t remember if it is on the catch box or not.
Rather than going back and re-explaining the purpose of the peg board on my home built vac, the Colorado type vac, I will simply refer the topic and post where; to the best to my ability, already explained.
TOPIC: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
REPLY 50
I hope that helps.....
-
Let me add anyone thinking of building or buying either style vac. The time it takes to gather the materials, put everything together etc is just not cost effective when you can simply order one ready to go... In my opinion, speaking from experience......
-
The above quote comes from Phil's post on another topic.
I have looked at the two systems and I have comments. The Colorado system has a valve on the vacuum head and I didn't see any adjustable "regulator" on the Bushkill model. Did I miss it? I am not thrilled about where the valve is located on the Colorado brand. In my view it should be located on the catch box. The reason being if the hose should ever get plugged at least you will have some air getting to the majority of the bees so they don't overheat or suffocate. Both systems have a screen between the vacuum head and the bees so in my view the peg board doesn't have any value.
Looking at the Bushkill video in action it appears to me that the air flow is greatly reduced at the nozzle. And the nozzle is connected to a 2 1/2 in hose which means the air flow will be even less in the hose and almost nothing in the catch box.
I'll answer this here as I think this thread is an attempt to move the bee vac discussion from the other thread.
The Bushkill bee vac has the bypass on the top cover for adjusting suction at the hose end. By doing it this way you are not adding extra load on the vac motor by restricting the air through it. You can easily hear the strain on a vac motor when you start restricting the air through it. This also still provides some airflow to remove hot air if the hose does get clogged.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lpb8wnJ/8frame2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/tQfmc7X/bypass.jpg)
As far as 2 1/2 inch hose, people have missed the boat big time on hose choice. Most are more concerned with smooth bore and just assume the inside of 2 1/2 vac hose looks the same as the outside, when in reality it is quite smooth as well. True smooth bore hose is very stiff and inflexible and difficult to work with when doing a removal. Also, the bigger diameter the hose the less contact the bees have with it. Not necessarily a great analogy but it gets the point across. Think about running as fast as you can down a 2ft wide windy hallway vs a 4ft wide hallway, which one are you going to hit the wall more??
(https://beevac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/vachose-004-150x150.jpg)
-
I'll answer this here as I think this thread is an attempt to move the bee vac discussion from the other thread.
First of all thank you for taking part in this discussion Robo.
The Bushkill bee vac has the bypass on the top cover for adjusting suction at the hose end.
Super, I saw the bypass but I did not see the plastic plate. Good design and in the right place IMO.
By doing it this way you are not adding extra load on the vac motor by restricting the air through it.
Well technically that is not correct. When you restrict a vacuum you unload the motor and what you hear is a pick up in speed. It sounds like it is screaming because it is, nothing to hold it back other than the frequency of the AC. Now this is even worse for a gas powered blower. There you only have friction to hold it back. And overspeed is more destructive to a gas motor.
This also still provides some airflow to remove hot air if the hose does get clogged.
Yes, my point exactly. Not only heat but oxygen. When the hose is plugged they got no oxygen to breath. Locating the regulator in the catchbox and not after it insures that the bees will get oxygen.
Also, the bigger diameter the hose the less contact the bees have with it. Not necessarily a great analogy but it gets the point across. Think about running as fast as you can down a 2ft wide windy hallway vs a 4ft wide hallway, which one are you going to hit the wall more??
Here again science can explain this. Because of friction the air in the middle of the hose moves faster than the air around the inside surface of the hose. The bigger the hose the greater the difference in the velocities. So the bees are more likely to stay in the center of the hose then near the surface assuming the air flow is great enough to keep them airborn. This is one of the reasons it is important to understand that it is air flow that is important not air pressure.
-
Robo, I realize you have nothing to gain by debating about the vac situation. Nor the hose situation. Your vac is time, field tested, and proven. You and I both have defended your vac. You because you know your vac. Me because I have heard great things about your vac.
As stated before, I use a smaller diameter pool vac hose with the smoothest inside as I could find. I want to say for clarity. I am not in any way attempting to discredit you, and I will not. I can not nor would I as your vacs reputation speaks for itself. I am attempting to use my words clearly for understanding and accuracy. My point of this post is an attempt to further explain my point of view related to my successful use of my smaller diameter 30' pool hose and the relevance of its use and importance, especially in hard to reach, high up places and situations where a swarm removal may not be practical by other means, or sometimes even possible. As you have explained your point of view and reasoning as far as hose size. I feel it is reasonable to explain my point of view as well. When we are reaching a swarm thirty feet high, considering the weight of the hose and the weight of the pool pole added, plus the hard part of physics of gravity pulling on each at that height while standing on a 10 foot ladder, plus considering any angle of use which may and come into play in some situations. Under these described factors, the set up can become mighty heavy very quickly, lol. As stated before, I have used this pool hose set up many times at different heights, with great success with an amazingly minimum loss of bees. Almost none. As Ripley says, believe it; Or not...
:grin:
-
Phil I went back to post #50 just to reread what you wrote. Question: Have you found any debris on the screen after a job is done?
In the Brushkill video the entry hose is in the bottom of the catch box. Debris might be to heavy to reach the blower. It might just settle in the bottom of the box. Dust is not going to hurt the blower. Paper might be an issue.
-
Phil I wetn back to post #50 just to reread what you wrote. Question: Have you found any debris on the screen after a job is done?
In the Brushkill video the entry hose is in the bottom of the catch box. Debris might be to heavy to reach the blower. It might just settle in the bottom of the box. Dust is not going to hurt the blower. Paper might be an issue.
Thanks Brian, No I have not ever found any type derby on my screen.
From that post, It was a long post 🙂
"Never have I found any insulation, or anything else on, or stuck to the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long catch box screen. Adding I have ran this vac for as long as 3 hours straight, numerous times, when doing a difficult cutout, I would be afraid to guess how many hours this vac has ran."
-
Phil in the spray painting industry you use a 1/2 hose that will allow you to go 100 ft and then use a 1/4 in hose for the last 6 ft for comfort and flexibility. It is called a whip. I am not trying to change your methods because you are having success. Just putting it out there. I have another question for you: Do you find and catch the queen or do you let her ride through the hose?
-
Phil in the spray painting industry you use a 1/2 hose that will allow you to go 100 ft and then use a 1/4 in hose for the last 6 ft for comfort and flexibility. It is called a whip. I am not trying to change your methods because you are having success. Just putting it out there. I have another question for you: Do you find and catch the queen or do you let her ride through the hose?
She / they are vacuumed through the hose every time I use the bee vac. Not when I do a limb shake on low lying limbs. But every time I use the vac. As far as I know I have never killed or even injured a queen with my method. When the swarm is on a low limb I will simply shake the bees into an empty set up printing paper box.
Sometimes it is not possible to get close to the swarm when at higher elevations. These are the times I break out the bee vac. Recently I have began dissecting the swarms, looking for multiple queens in a swarm. I explained that method in another thread. My vac is very practical for this use as well. When the vac section is removed or separated if you will; the whole top of the catch box is exposed to view because of the screen top. I take advantage of this when dissecting a swarm. This allows an opportunity to spray the swarm with sugar water as described in the topic "Dissecting a swarm". To much to text here. Anyone interested to can go back to that topic for specifics.
Adding: On cutouts, I have caught the queens both ways, before vacuuming and sometimes through the hose. Also adding when a swarm is low enough to be printer box shaked, I will study the (ball),
the swarm, before a shake. I have found queens that way also. Always have queen clips handy or be quick with your hands. Queen cages will be found on me during this time as well.
-
Phil in the spray painting industry you use a 1/2 hose that will allow you to go 100 ft and then use a 1/4 in hose for the last 6 ft for comfort and flexibility. It is called a whip. I am not trying to change your methods because you are having success. Just putting it out there. I have another question for you: Do you find and catch the queen or do you let her ride through the hose?
I understand you description and purpose of the painting hose. Good analogy, in my situation the vacuum motor is not under strain. I only want enough of its suction power to draw bees through the hose, no more. The rest of the suction is unused but still in force and allowed, diverted through the relief (valve). The motor is never in a strain.
-
Recently I have began dissecting the swarms, looking for multiple queens in a swarm. I explained that method in another thread. My vac is very practical for this use as well. When the vac section is removed or separated if you will; the whole top of the catch box is exposed to view because of the screen top. I take advantage of this when dissecting a swarm. This allows an opportunity to spray the swarm with sugar water as described in the topic dissecting a swarm. To much to text here. Anyone interested to can go back to that topic for specifics.
I found and now posting of the topic mentioned above.
Dissecting a Swarm
First post
May 10, 2021, 10:28:16 pm
-
I just thought of something else. With swarm catches it is rare to see derbies at the bottom of the catch box. When doing cut outs there will be the occasional small something at the (bottom) of my box resting on the slider divider. When I get my new bees home, I place my catch box on top of the new cut out rubber banded set up, new home hive box and remove the slider in order to allow the bees to descend down to their new home as explained in one of the other topics. This is where the Robo vac has an advantage over my home built style. When the catch box bottom section slider is removed when set in place on mine and I suppose the Colorado, anything that may be found in the box will drop into the new hive set up.
From my understanding of Jeffs' description of Robos vac, this will not happen because Robos design, the bees are vacuumed and enter the bottom of his vac catch box and are already home. Any derbies heavier enough to have been vacuumed are already on the bottom of the catch hive box. If this is not right Robo please correct me. This is an advantage to the Robo vac if my understanding is correct.
On the style vac I made, any derby will have to be removed by the bee along with the rubber bands used to hold cut out comb in the frames.
As I said earlier in other post and topics, I am of the opinion you will do well with either of these. I know nothing of the Edwards vac that 2Sox had told up about in the other topic except of what he told us. I would not be afraid of using that vac as well. A bucket vac has to have advantages..
I feel sure there are other bee vacs that have yet to be discussed here. I for one would love to hear of these as well.
-
Robo, I realize you have nothing to gain by debating about the vac situation. Nor the hose situation. Your vac is time, field tested, and proven. You and I both have defended your vac. You because you know your vac. Me because I have heard great things about your vac.
I am not in any way attempting to discredit you, and I will not. I can not nor would I as your vacs reputation speaks for itself.
No worries, I appreciate respectful discussions of methods. There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is no one method that works for everyone or every situation. I'm a firm believer in figuring out what works best for YOU and use it. We can all learn from others.
I can share that I had a guy (sorry I can't remember his name) who followed the pollinators around in Georgia(?) and collected a ridiculous number (triple digits) of swarms a year and then sold hives back to pollinators the next season. He didn't have time to screw around on any one swarm and had his truck set up with 10' sections of light weight 2" central vacuum PVC (sch 20?). He could easily join multiple sections and collect very high swarms in minutes and it is probably lighter than pool hose.
-
From my understanding of Jeffs' description of Robos vac, this will not happen because Robos design, the bees are vacuumed and enter the bottom of his vac catch box and are already home. Any derbies heavier enough to have been vacuumed are already on the bottom of the catch hive box. If this is not right Robo please correct me. This is an advantage to the Robo vac if my understanding is correct.es..
I feel sure there are other bee vacs that have yet to be discussed here. I for one would love to hear of these as well.
That is correct, any debris (or honey covered bees you suck up) remains on the bottom. It is inevitable that you will eventual suck up bits of sheet rock, plaster, nails, wood, etc when doing removals in some of these awkward positions we get into.
-
That is interesting about the fellow in Georgia with his method of catching and selling bees back to the pollinators! I suppose he may be the bee catching king... Thanks for sharing
As Ace, I really appreciate your feedback Robo! It is not everyday that a person has the opportunity to talk Bee Vacs with the Bee Vac king!
:grin:
-
The motor is never in a strain.
As I tried to explain before (maybe not clearly) the motor is under it greatest strain when nothing obstructs the flow of air. This is no different then any pump that pumps liquids, air, water, oil etc. If you start to limit the air the motor will unload and speed up. All the regulator is doing is allowing the air to come to the motor from another source so less comes though the vacuum hose but the same amount goes through the motor.
My objection to the peg board is that it is an obstruction and I can see no reason for it. Take it out and you can use a much smaller motor. This will allow you to use a longer extension cord which I think would be an advantage.
-
For those interested in the Colorado Bee Vac that Ben described, here is the website:
https://www.coloradobeerescue.com
Here is the Bushkill:
https://www.beevac.com
The above quote comes from 2sox's post on another topic.
I have looked at the two systems and I have comments. The Colorado system has a valve on the vacuum head and I didn't see any adjustable "regulator" on the Bushkill model. Did I miss it? I am not thrilled about where the valve is located on the Colorado brand. In my view it should be located on the catch box. The reason being if the hose should ever get plugged at least you will have some air getting to the majority of the bees so they don't overheat or suffocate. Both systems have a screen between the vacuum head and the bees so in my view the peg board doesn't have any value.
Looking at the Bushkill video in action it appears to me that the air flow is greatly reduced at the nozzle. And the nozzle is connected to a 2 1/2 in hose which means the air flow will be even less in the hose and almost nothing in the catch box.
edited to give credit where credit is do.
Ace,
I?ve come to respect your knowledge of machines, physics, air flow a great deal through reading your posts. I have a question about your comment above regarding the air control valve on the Colorado. Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
I don?t quite understand what you are trying to explain about the nozzle? What part do you mean when you refer to the nozzle? Thanks.
I would also like to tell everyone that the inventor of the Colorado Vac is very receptive to answering questions about his innovation. He will also take phone calls. We have spoken and exchanged several emails before and after I purchased his machine. He can be reached at guysemail@aol.com. Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.
-
The motor is never in a strain.
As I tried to explain before (maybe not clearly) the motor is under it greatest strain when nothing obstructs the flow of air. This is no different then any pump that pumps liquids, air, water, oil etc. If you start to limit the air the motor will unload and speed up. All the regulator is doing is allowing the air to come to the motor from another source so less comes though the vacuum hose but the same amount goes through the motor.
My objection to the peg board is that it is an obstruction and I can see no reason for it. Take it out and you can use a much smaller motor. This will allow you to use a longer extension cord which I think would be an advantage.
I understand what you are saying and what you say is reasonable in the type uses you are describing with construction equipment etc. I feel I have failed to help you understand the function of the pegboard in my home build (colorado type) bee vac situation. I will try to explain on the terms you understand and are familiar with. I have noticed on my air compressor, (the 6 gallon pancake one), When no air pressure is in the tank and first turned on it is allowed to run at a faster, full, rpm because there is no load build up at first speaking of psi. The motor is allowed to run the full rpms it was designed to run at. As the psi slowly builds up, then the motor begins to slowly slow down in rpms the more load, the more psi realized, the slower the rpms and motor load until finally, the motor shuts off at 150 psi. By this time the motor really sounds to be under tremendous strain. With the bee vac and peg board in comparison, this type of load is never an issue or achieved with my homemade bee vac. Compare the two, reset compressor max setting to 10 psi instead of 150 psi of compressed air, then the compressor motor immediately shuts off at that 10 psi new setting. No strain is ever realized. This comparison reset should give us a fair comparison to the pegboard function of my bee vac because only a fraction of the output of the beevac is required. Remember, we only need enough suction to get the bees through the hose and in the catch box, without injury to the bees, along with the happy medium of arriving in the catch box without getting stopped up in the hose.
We can use a car for another example or any or any other type motor as you have stated. Let us look at a car engine for instance, going up a mountain as compared to a small grade. Start up a mountain and the higher you drive the more energy it takes to get up that mountain and the more the "strain" is realized by the driver. Now go up a small incline of only a few feet in height and there is a strain, but a strain that is almost not noticed. Compare this analogy to the extra energy of pegboard and bee vac and it is like comparing the difference in the strain of the mountain, and slight incline of the vehicle example. You will not hear a difference in motor strain from the car and you will not hear the difference of vac motor strain with my vac. The pegboard does allow plenty of air flow to the catch box area, there are hundreds of peg holes in this board. The only yet simple function of the pegboard is to adjust if you will, or regulate the already low needed suction pressure to be sure to get the bees safely and efficiently through the bee vac pool hose. Any needed suction is only enough to get the bees to the catch box through this hose, gently and safely. Any unneeded vacuum of the motor is released through the suction relief valve, assisting in no added, unnecessary strain or suction of the be vac apparatus, diverting any strong vacuum we do not need or want in excess of getting bees in the bee vac catch box, affording no damage to the bees.
The only simple yet unique purpose of the peg board is to assure an even, suction of pressure, throughout every square inch of the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long 9' tall catch box. The peg board can be viewed as a regulator if you will. No matter where the bee is in the open catch box, it has little to no strain from the vac itself because every inch of the inside of the catch box is at an even regulated suction pull. In theory, there is no one part of the catch box that has more suction pull than the other. This is why no foam is needed on the opposite end of the catch box. The bees do not come crashing in the catchbox. The instant the bee enters the open even pressured catch box, it is received with a soft gentle landing because of the regulated air of the pegboard. Unique really. Bees do not have to deal with being pulled here and there, too or fro inside the catch box. Because of the added help of the even suction of the "regulated" peg board air. If I need to go back to the other topic and copy and paste here to assist in my explanation I will be happy too.
I hope that helps you understand the function of the pegboard. (at least on my homebuilt vac design)
-
I would also like to tell everyone that the inventor of the Colorado Vac is very receptive to answering questions about his innovation. He will also take phone calls. We have spoken and exchanged several emails before and after I purchased his machine. He can be reached at guysemail@aol.com. Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.
2Sox, I want to say I have not taken the opportunity to talk to the Colorado vac man. I build my home vac on the principle of the peg board of his unique incorporated pegboard application. I can not speak for nor have I spoken for the Colorado vac, but only for my homebuilt vac. But, ff I have helped explain his vac pegboard situation and he agrees as to its use and function for his vac as I have described for my homebuilt job, and if, I have helped him in any way he is free to contact me for hire as director of sales for his vac company! lol. If my application of the peg board is different than his remember my vac is home built with a different type motor which I modified by the seat of my pants, (A shop vac brand motor). Most likely other differences as well. That is why I referred to my vac as the Colorado (type) vac. Not a copy; I could not honesty and in fairness to Mr
colorado claim his superior design. There may be several differences.
The same can go for our friend Robo. lol; I will go to work for him as well. I like the unique principles both of these vacs!
The next time I need a vac, if I ever do, I think I will just buy one. Too much trouble building one and even more trouble explaining it! lol
PS just kidding about the sales jobs fellows. :cheesy:
-
Adding I have, so far, really enjoyed this discussion. I hope the other posters have as well. Maybe we have all learned more about bee vacs! And who knows; Maybe we will be treated to hearing from the Colorado bee vac inventor that 2Sox has told up about?
.
-
Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
One reason is heat as Robo stated in post #4. If the regulated air passes through the catch box the bees will always have a supply of cool air no matter what unless you have it completely shut off. The other issue is oxygen. If for some reason the hose gets plugged it will only take a few seconds for the bees to have no oxygen at all. With the regulator in the catch box this can never happen.
What part do you mean when you refer to the nozzle? Thanks.
The nozzle is the attach piece at the end of the hose. Usually it is reduced or shaped like a crevice tool.
Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.
He is certainly welcome but he must understand that my comments are meant to be constructive not degrading.
-
Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
One reason is heat as Robo stated in post #4. If the regulated air passes through the catch box the bees will always have a supply of cool air no matter what unless you have it completely shut off. The other issue is oxygen. If for some reason the hose gets plugged it will only take a few seconds for the bees to have no oxygen at all. With the regulator in the catch box this can never happen.
Brian with my home build vac over heating is not a concern. If by some chance the electrical source were to fail in the middle of a swarm catch or a cutout, I can simply remove the vacuum section of the set up and the entire top of the catch box is open screen. Though designed a little differently, I think the same can be done with the Bushkill Bee Vac (Robo vac). As his also has a framed in, removable, complete top screen covering the entire top of his catch box. Again If that is wrong Robo correct me please.
So overheating is never a concern for me. Actually, I remove the vac section when the job is complete for the hot day ride home. The bees with all that open screen could not overheat even if they wanted to lol. If it is an unseasonable cooler day, I have placed a solid top over the catch box, leaving a few inches space on the side for heat escape on the ride home. This keeps the bees as comfortable as possible, with less stress on the colony as possible, in my way of thinking and theory. It has never failed me. Adding, I have never lost a colony by these methods.
-
Could you explain with a little more detail why you feel the air flow valve - what you call the regulator - should be placed on the catch box instead of on the vac motor? And what difference that would make in the scheme of things?
One reason is heat as Robo stated in post #4. If the regulated air passes through the catch box the bees will always have a supply of cool air no matter what unless you have it completely shut off. The other issue is oxygen. If for some reason the hose gets plugged it will only take a few seconds for the bees to have no oxygen at all. With the regulator in the catch box this can never happen.
What part do you mean when you refer to the nozzle? Thanks.
The nozzle is the attach piece at the end of the hose. Usually it is reduced or shaped like a crevice tool.
Perhaps we should invite him to this forum and to the discussion - if he is not a member already.
He is certainly welcome but he must understand that my comments are meant to be constructive not degrading.
Thanks for you reply, Ace.
Regarding O2; on both the Bushkill and the Colorado, there is a screen covering the entire top area/surface of the catch boxes. They were designed to be easily exposed when the vac is stopped; it takes literally a couple of seconds. In addition, each has a door that can be closed to prevent bee escape, when the vac motor is shut off. If you have seen the videos on each site, this is demonstrated.
I have discussed my own suggestions with Guy - the Colorado inventor - who is very approachable. He listens respectfully and offers his opinions. I?m certain he would take constructive suggestions in the spirit they are given.
Edit: Another thing about O2 in both units. If you are familiar with the design of each - as I explained above - there is immediate ability to ventilate and thereby cool the bees. Bushkill: Shut the motor and lift it off. This exposes the open screened area immediately. Some people remove the slide out when the cut out is over, some people don?t. The bees are still adequately ventilated when the the motor is removed. I always merge the bees with the brood before I leave the site and either option has always been fine
Colorado, the same. Shut the motor off and lift the top off with the attached vac motor which exposes the entire screened catch box. I?ve done this countless times with no issues. However, on this unit you must remove the motor with cover immediately when vacuuming is done.
One of the VERY big advantages that Bushkill has over the Colorado is the ability to place empty frames inside the catch box. This enables the bees to hang from the top bars instead of the screen. Guy the inventor of the Colorado even warns in his video that if for any reason you stop the vacuuming and the bees start to clump on the screen, you MUST shake them down before you start up again or they will get sucked through the screen into the pegboard and into the motor itself.
-
I do not have or want a (claim to fame) with my homebuilt colorado (style) vac. I would not build and market one because if I were to do so, I might be in violation of his copyright even if I did want to, (and I do not want too). My vac is similar to his, especially the peg board idea. Even if my vac was totally different, I would not want to market and sell. My need for a bee vac is what led me to making my own. I would not wish to build another as stated in a previous post. My simple need and the added luxury of having a bee vac has been the most important tool; (along with my oxalic vaporizer), I have as a hobby beekeeper. I recommend every beekeeper with at least 4-5 hives having one!
I have never seen an authentic Colorado Bee Vac, Nor an authentic Robo/Bushkill vac. Only in videos and pictures. Though improvements may be possible on these differently designed vacs, colorado and bushkill, I can not see how either could be improved upon to be any better than what they are now, as what they were designed for. I am of the opinion these vacs are tops. Like Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. Or Chevrolet, Vs Ford and Dodge. Just my opinion.
Future projects for me? I am thinking a portable bee lift/hive mover, will be my next project to add to my important beekeeping tools. I have posted topics about these as well as videos. Will I buy or build my own? Probably build my own, again for my own personal needs and added luxury of the benefit having and using it. (A back saver from my understanding). Later probably saying "If i needed another one, I would recommend just buying it lol" I am sure it will be a lot of work and trouble gathering supplies and the added trouble of putting it all together! And, will I want to become a hive lift salesman after the project is completed? No just as I have not desire to become a bee vac salesman. lol :cheesy:
-
I do not have or want a (claim to fame) with my homebuilt colorado (style) vac. I would not build and market one because if I were to do so, I might be in violation of his copyright even if I did want to, (and I do not want too). My vac is similar to his, especially the peg board idea. Even if my vac was totally different, I would not want to market and sell. My need for a bee vac is what led me to making my own. I would not wish to build another as stated in a previous post. My simple need and the added luxury of having a bee vac has been the most important tool; (along with my oxalic vaporizer), I have as a hobby beekeeper. I recommend every beekeeper with at least 4-5 hives having one!
I have never seen an authentic Colorado Bee Vac, Nor an authentic Robo/Bushkill vac. Only in videos and pictures. Though improvements may be possible on these differently designed vacs, colorado and bushkill, I can not see how either could be improved upon to be any better than what they are now, as what they were designed for. I am of the opinion these vacs are tops. Like Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. Or Chevrolet, Vs Ford and Dodge. Just my opinion.
Future projects for me? I am thinking a portable bee lift/hive mover, will be my next project to add to my important beekeeping tools. I have posted topics about these as well as videos. Will I buy or build my own? Probably build my own, again for my own personal needs and added luxury of the benefit having and using it. (A back saver from my understanding). Later probably saying "If i needed another one, I would recommend just buying it lol" I am sure it will be a lot of work and trouble gathering supplies and the added trouble of putting it all together! And, will I want to become a hive lift salesman after the project is completed? No just as I have not desire to become a bee vac salesman. lol :cheesy:
Adding after reading your last post 2Sox I will not dispute or discourage you about your suggestions and input of helping Mr Colorado improve his vac. You probably see something I do not see in that regard. Thanks...
-
I do not have or want a (claim to fame) with my homebuilt colorado (style) vac. I would not build and market one because if I were to do so, I might be in violation of his copyright even if I did want to, (and I do not want too). My vac is similar to his, especially the peg board idea. Even if my vac was totally different, I would not want to market and sell. My need for a bee vac is what led me to making my own. I would not wish to build another as stated in a previous post. My simple need and the added luxury of having a bee vac has been the most important tool; (along with my oxalic vaporizer), I have as a hobby beekeeper. I recommend every beekeeper with at least 4-5 hives having one!
I have never seen an authentic Colorado Bee Vac, Nor an authentic Robo/Bushkill vac. Only in videos and pictures. Though improvements may be possible on these differently designed vacs, colorado and bushkill, I can not see how either could be improved upon to be any better than what they are now, as what they were designed for. I am of the opinion these vacs are tops. Like Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. Or Chevrolet, Vs Ford and Dodge. Just my opinion.
Future projects for me? I am thinking a portable bee lift/hive mover, will be my next project to add to my important beekeeping tools. I have posted topics about these as well as videos. Will I buy or build my own? Probably build my own, again for my own personal needs and added luxury of the benefit having and using it. (A back saver from my understanding). Later probably saying "If i needed another one, I would recommend just buying it lol" I am sure it will be a lot of work and trouble gathering supplies and the added trouble of putting it all together! And, will I want to become a hive lift salesman after the project is completed? No just as I have not desire to become a bee vac salesman. lol :cheesy:
Adding after reading your last post 2Sox I will not dispute or discourage you about your suggestions and input of helping Mr Colorado improve his vac. You probably see something I do not see in that regard. Thanks...
Thanks, Ben. We had a brief conversation about my idea regarding placing a sheet of thin foam standard AC filter between the screen on the catch box, and the pegboard on the top with the vac motor. Based on my experience with my other two vac models, I wanted to prevent any dust or debris to foul the vac motor. (This filter does cut down on the suction force slightly but this is easily compensated for with the valve.). He didn?t feel the filter was necessary. So we respectfully disagreed.
A criticism I have of the Colorado system is the ball valve; It is extremely hard to turn. I?ve used several lubricants but nothing seems to improve this.
I made another minor alteration/addition to this system. I placed a piece of 'hardware cloth? over the air intake of the vac motor; this to prevent stray bees from getting sucked in. Both the Owens and Bushkill have this built into their systems and it?s definitely needed.
-
> I made another minor alteration/addition to this system. I placed a piece of 'hardware cloth? over the air intake of the vac motor; this to prevent stray bees from getting sucked in. Both the Owens and Bushkill have this built into their systems and it?s definitely needed.
Thanks 2Sox. This is another place where my home built vac differs. My intake is not set up where bees can reach it or have access to it. which leads me to another tip for anyone who catches swarms with their vac.. let me explain, I vac a few and move my inlet end of the vac hose fitting to another spot on the ball of bees and vac more until all possible are in the vac.
The Tip; I notice every time I do one of these retrievals, it is almost written when I know the queen has entered the catch box, stray bees from the swarm which are not many, can apparently smell her in the air coming out of the vac exhaust. They always attempt to go in the out door so to speak. Which is impossible. But they smell her and give it a good try. They try to hover the exhaust area but to no avail; When they try to enter, naturally the vac exhaust wind blows them right back away lol it?s a funny site. After I finish the vacuuming of the (Limb area) where this swarm was located, I simply turn the hose to the exhaust area and pick up the few excess bees there, Which is not a lot I just hate leaving them behind lol
-
The only simple yet unique purpose of the peg board is to assure an even, suction of pressure, throughout every square inch of the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long 9' tall catch box. The peg board can be viewed as a regulator if you will. No matter where the bee is in the open catch box, it has little to no strain from the vac itself because every inch of the inside of the catch box is at an even regulated suction pull. In theory, there is no one part of the catch box that has more suction pull than the other.
Ugh, I answered this in the morning and moved away from my computer before hitting the post button.
Here goes. By the laws of physics on fluids the pressure cannot be different in the catch box if there was nothing, screen or pegboard between the motor and catchbox. It is the laws of physic that you need to argue otherwise. Go back to your compressor the pressure in the tank is equal anywhere in the tank. As a hole it can increase or decrease but what ever it is it is. You and the inventor are arriving at a conclusion by intuition not scientific fact. I am convinced that this confusion is because you lack the understanding between pressure and flow. If you continue to believe they are the same then you will not understand what is really happening.
-
So overheating is never a concern for me.
This goes for 2sox also. The heat and lack of O2 that I speak of is only a problem when the motor is on while the hose is plugged. I lack the experience to know if this is a real problem or not. All I can say is if this does happen for some reason the bees have no air. It will happen in like a sec and a half. Not a long time so it better not be minutes before you turn off the motor. By turning off the motor they can get oxygen back through the motor. No real need to take it off.
-
The only simple yet unique purpose of the peg board is to assure an even, suction of pressure, throughout every square inch of the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long 9' tall catch box. The peg board can be viewed as a regulator if you will. No matter where the bee is in the open catch box, it has little to no strain from the vac itself because every inch of the inside of the catch box is at an even regulated suction pull. In theory, there is no one part of the catch box that has more suction pull than the other.
Ugh, I answered this in the morning and moved away from my computer before hitting the post button.
Here goes. It is the laws of physic that you need to argue otherwise. Go back to your compressor the pressure in the tank is equal anywhere in the tank. As a hole it can increase or decrease but what ever it is it is. You and the inventor are arriving at a conclusion by intuition not scientific fact. I am convinced that this confusion is because you lack the understanding between pressure and flow. If you continue to believe they are the same then you will not understand what is really happening.
> By the laws of physics on fluids the pressure cannot be different in the catch box if there was nothing, screen or pegboard between the motor and catchbox.
Actually I have a great understanding of pressure and flow in both instances, air compressor as you describe and now bee vacs and pegboard as I describe.
The difference in my application is; the same low suction pressure which is applied in my bee vac circumstance, (with or without the pegboard), agreeing with you. Now, adding the right size Pegboard NOW gives an evenly re-distributed, divirted, if you will, evenly placed, maybe the word detoured may work better, suction throughout the length and width of the catch box 16" wide by 19 7/8" long, because of this added use of pegboard is also 16" wide by 19 7/8" long placed above the catch box. The pegboard affords this even pull of suction from any place in the catchbox because of the hundreds of tiny peg hole openings, each doing its part to allow X amount of suction through. Giving a measure of even suction through out the catchbox.
Brian, I sure hope this helps you understand. lol
-
So overheating is never a concern for me.
This goes for 2sox also. The heat and lack of O2 that I speak of is only a problem when the motor is on while the hose is plugged. I lack the experience to know if this is a real problem or not. All I can say is if this does happen for some reason the bees have no air. It will happen in like a sec and a half. Not a long time so it better not be minutes before you turn off the motor. By turning off the motor they can get oxygen back through the motor. No real need to take it off.
Brian, I have not had trouble with my bees overheating. If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section. I googled bees overhearing after being vacuumed after a cutout. Here is what I found. 2013 It looks like all roads lead back to here, beemaster. :grin: The following is just a sample of things that can go wrong. I have not experienced these negative experiences. I do not think when Robo vac is used as purposed, it does not either. I did not read the entire thread only the first two post.
And I quote:
I done a cutout yesterday and I'm having problems with the bees getting wet within a minute or two of sucking them into my bee vac and dying. I have the one like Cindy Bee used with the plastic bucket and the box top that comes off. If there is an better way or something I can change I am open to suggestions. I had no problems earlier in the year.
Sounds like they are overheating, a common issue with bucket type bee vacs. Best you can do is not shut the vac off (keep air moving through it) and remove the screen cage as soon as you're done.
-
If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section.
Phil, you are still stuck on the idea of the vac being off. I am talking about overheating or suffocating when the vac is on not off.
-
So overheating is never a concern for me.
This goes for 2sox also. The heat and lack of O2 that I speak of is only a problem when the motor is on while the hose is plugged. I lack the experience to know if this is a real problem or not. All I can say is if this does happen for some reason the bees have no air. It will happen in like a sec and a half. Not a long time so it better not be minutes before you turn off the motor. By turning off the motor they can get oxygen back through the motor. No real need to take it off.
I get what you mean. But because of the design of these vacs, even with the hose plugged - which is NOT a real world scenario - the bees will continue to get fresh air, and NOT overheat. There are generous air inlets and the motors have air outlets and circulation is continuous. It is only when the motor is stopped and the bees are inside the cage/catch box that the danger begins. The screen must be exposed and open and the cage released or the bees will overheat.
Thats why I never turn off the vacs during the entire cutout. I believe I spoke about this in the other thread.
Stopping the motor mid-cut also also presents the danger of bee migration and possible escape into and through the hose. If the bees are crawling into the hose and the motor is turned back on, the bees are drawn back in too fast and this can kill them.
-
Thanks 2Sox for explaining.
If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section.
Phil, you are still stuck on the idea of the vac being off. I am talking about overheating or suffocating when the vac is on not off.
I was not stuck, I simply did not understand your question because I had already covered that part on the other topic.. The video by The Walls Bee Man that I posted for your benefit exhibiting the rigid "brand" shop vac converted to now being of duel use or purpose as both shop vac and bee vac, the video explained its function of dual purpose, a shop vac and a bee vac. If I'm not mistaken, overheating in that type of vac was discussed. But to give you the benefit of doubt it might not have been in that particular video. I have not watched his, (those), videos completely through in years.
-
Brian, I have not had trouble with my bees overheating. If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section. I googled bees overhearing after being vacuumed after a cutout. Here is what I found. 2013 It looks like all roads lead back to here, beemaster. :grin: The following is just a sample of things that can go wrong. I have not experienced these negative experiences. I do not think when Robo vac is used as purposed, it does not either. I did not read the entire thread only the first two post.
Glad you have not had overheating issues and hope you never do. However it IS a possibility. Many people feel foolish when issues arise and bees get killed in a situation they could have prevented and therefore don't necessarily make it public knowledge, so I'm not surprised you didn't find more. I killed bees from overheating in my early cut-out days using the old box in a box bee vacs and people continue to kill bees via overheating on a regular basis.
There are many situations out there that this can happen and having a plan in your pocket to "shut off" or whatever when a hose clog happens doesn't necessarily prevent bee loss. It is like saying I would never drive into a ditch because when I see I'm heading for the ditch I will turn the steering wheel to avoid it. OK, seems like a reasonable idea but yet how many people drive into ditches?
You are 20ft up on a ladder neck deep in a removal and you need both hands and set the vac down and it sucks up a rag, chunk of insulation, or just sucks to the wall. Best case is you notice and now have to potentially do something with the honey laden comb that is dripping in your hands and then climb down 20ft of ladder to deal with it. Worse case is you don't notice and continue on with that sticky comb and the next, and the next and go back to use the vacuum 5, 10, .... minutes later and realize there is no suction.
Even a more probable case is you suck off a clump of festooning bees and it clogs the hose and now must climb down the ladder and deal with it, it all takes precious time. Or simply drop the hose and it sucks to the ground, once again down the ladder.
Point is most bee vac will work under ideal situations, but unfortunately doing removals is rarely in ideal situations. Some bee vacs are better than others when dealing with overheating. Bucket types are the worse because they are a small volume and bees need to spread out to cool themselves when hot. For the most part it is a learned discipline on how many bees you can suck up with a bucket vac before changing cages as there is no visible way to see how full it is. I strongly discourage using bucket vacs, they kill more bees that all other bee vac designs combined.
I have multiple customers in Texas that have tried many different bee vacs and could never get past overheating until they got my vac. Now they put a dawn comb filled with water in the vac before starting and have overcome their issues.
There is no one perfect bee vac and it all comes down to the risk you can afford to take. Everyone's situation and risks are different. I'm sure there are many people that the scenarios I describe above are not applicable. But there are also many people that they are. I have a ton of nuisance wildlife folks that deal with these situation on a daily basis. Hobbyist needs are vastly different than that of professionals.
Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box. Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.
As always, if it is working for you keep doing it ..... :-)
-
Brian, I have not had trouble with my bees overheating. If I were to lose power I would simply separate the vac section form the catch box section. I googled bees overhearing after being vacuumed after a cutout. Here is what I found. 2013 It looks like all roads lead back to here, beemaster. :grin: The following is just a sample of things that can go wrong. I have not experienced these negative experiences. I do not think when Robo vac is used as purposed, it does not either. I did not read the entire thread only the first two post.
Glad you have not had overheating issues and hope you never do. However it IS a possibility. Many people feel foolish when issues arise and bees get killed in a situation they could have prevented and therefore don't necessarily make it public knowledge, so I'm not surprised you didn't find more. I killed bees from overheating in my early cut-out days using the old box in a box bee vacs and people continue to kill bees via overheating on a regular basis.
There are many situations out there that this can happen and having a plan in your pocket to "shut off" or whatever when a hose clog happens doesn't necessarily prevent bee loss. It is like saying I would never drive into a ditch because when I see I'm heading for the ditch I will turn the steering wheel to avoid it. OK, seems like a reasonable idea but yet how many people drive into ditches?
You are 20ft up on a ladder neck deep in a removal and you need both hands and set the vac down and it sucks up a rag, chunk of insulation, or just sucks to the wall. Best case is you notice and now have to potentially do something with the honey laden comb that is dripping in your hands and then climb down 20ft of ladder to deal with it. Worse case is you don't notice and continue on with that sticky comb and the next, and the next and go back to use the vacuum 5, 10, .... minutes later and realize there is no suction.
Even a more probable case is you suck off a clump of festooning bees and it clogs the hose and now must climb down the ladder and deal with it, it all takes precious time. Or simply drop the hose and it sucks to the ground, once again down the ladder.
Point is most bee vac will work under ideal situations, but unfortunately doing removals is rarely in ideal situations. Some bee vacs are better than others when dealing with overheating. Bucket types are the worse because they are a small volume and bees need to spread out to cool themselves when hot. For the most part it is a learned discipline on how many bees you can suck up with a bucket vac before changing cages as there is no visible way to see how full it is. I strongly discourage using bucket vacs, they kill more bees that all other bee vac designs combined.
I have multiple customers in Texas that have tried many different bee vacs and could never get past overheating until they got my vac. Now they put a dawn comb filled with water in the vac before starting and have overcome their issues.
There is no one perfect bee vac and it all comes down to the risk you can afford to take. Everyone's situation and risks are different. I'm sure there are many people that the scenarios I describe above are not applicable. But there are also many people that they are. I have a ton of nuisance wildlife folks that deal with these situation on a daily basis. Hobbyist needs are vastly different than that of professionals.
Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box. Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.
As always, if it is working for you keep doing it ..... :-)
Robo,
Thanks for this generous response. The issues you write about have come up occasionally for me, but I?m able to address them pretty fast because I NEVER do cutouts on a ladder and I never do them alone. I mean never. In my opinion and in my experience - and I mean no insult to anyone who does - it is extremely unwise to work alone - AND dangerous.
I always work with two others - one who is handy with tools and knows building structures (contractor) and one assists me directly. We set up an assembly line like system. The contractor takes things apart and exposes the colony, then an assistant and myself take over. When working on a scaffolding in the heat of the summer, we take many breaks for hydration and such but the work is continuous because there are three of us.
There are times that an interior cutout is so straightforward that I will work with only one assistant.
If a cutout is very high, a client is required to get a scaffolding erected or a boom lift. I am able to arrange either for them but they are responsible for the cost. This is all in my contract.
The other reason I can avoid many of the issues you describe - and I mentioned this before - is that I never use a hose longer that 8-10 feet. From my experience, long hoses are a disaster and kill bees. This is a rule that has no exceptions for me.
If a cutout is not high enough for a scaffold, we will work on a ladder but if the standard hose from the Colorado, or a Shop Vac stock hose cannot easily reach, THAT is the work for a bucket vac. I always bring two vac systems to every cutout and the Owens is always one of them - along with 3 cages. (You are right. You need to know how many bees you can fit into a cage so you can replace when one gets too full. Someday, they?ll make plexiglass buckets.)
-
There are generous air inlets and the motors have air outlets and circulation is continuous.
We differ greatly here. If there is no other port like the regulator supplying air to the catch box there not only is no air circulation (flow) but there is no air period. The vacuum motor creates a partial vacuum and that by definition removes the air (oxygen) from the catch box when the hose is plug. This is real, not make believe. Most shop vacs run in the range of 100cfm. If the space in the catchbox and hose is about 2 cu ft then most of the air is gone in 1.5 seconds. I like to see a person get down a ladder in 1.5 sec. It is a question of how long the bees can live without breathing.
-
[
Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box. Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.
Exactly, having never done a cut out I know this is true. Especially when you are 30-40 feet away from the vacuum source. Maybe 8 ft away not as critical but still a risk.
The second thing I will add because Jim mentioned the bees puking. When the regulator is in the catch box there is less variation of the "pressure" (not talking about flow now) in the catch box. Maybe the fluctuations of pressure while you are sucking up bees causes the bees to get sick. I don't know but it is a possibility of why it happens.
-
[
Bottom line is that having the regulator/bypass on the motor does add risks that are not present when the regulator/bypass is on the catch box. Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.
Exactly, having never done a cut out I know this is true. Especially when you are 30-40 feet away from the vacuum source. Maybe 8 ft away not as critical but still a risk.
The second thing I will add because Jim mentioned the bees puking. When the regulator is in the catch box there is less variation of the "pressure" (not talking about flow now) in the catch box. Maybe the fluctuations of pressure while you are sucking up bees causes the bees to get sick. I don't know but it is a possibility of why it happens.
On the Colorado, when the system is assembled and operating, the regulator is essentially ON the catch box. It is designed differently but operates on the same principle as the Bushkill, as far as I can see.
-
Good post and good points.
> Sounds like these risks are acceptable in your application so that is good, however it does not mean that the risks aren't real.
As always, if it is working for you keep doing it ..... :-)
I would suppose being in the bee vac business you have probably seen and heard most every scenario imaginable. Yes So far; my cutout uses have rarely placed me in such positions. Swarm removals are my main use . Therefore the variables you mention are held to a minimum, in my experience. No sticky honey hands, or insulation derbies 20 feet up on a ladder.
Now might be a good time to mention it would be a good idea for a person who does these dangerous ones, have an assistant for those hard to reach rough messy cutouts. Safety and convenience being two main reasons. An extra person on the ground, when particle, would be handy and not a bad idea to help remedy such as you described. This would or should eliminate most if not all of these unforeseen variables making the job easier as well.
-
Someday, they?ll make plexiglass buckets.)
It would be tough to keep clean and plexiglass has a tendency to crack if not very thick. You can cut a hole in the bucket, add a screen and cover it up with a drain stopper. Peal the stopper away when you want to look in.
I forgot to make this comment a while back. Someone mentioned that the valve is hard to turn. Just go to HD and get a tube of valve lubricant. Close the valve and dab a little on each side of the ball. There are two o-ring seals. You don't need much. It will make it free as a breeze. Colorado should have done this before they shipped vacs out.
-
edit: duplicate post.
-
There are generous air inlets and the motors have air outlets and circulation is continuous.
We differ greatly here. If there is no other port like the regulator supplying air to the catch box there not only is no air circulation (flow) but there is no air period. The vacuum motor creates a partial vacuum and that by definition removes the air (oxygen) from the catch box when the hose is plug. This is real, not make believe. Most shop vacs run in the range of 100cfm. If the space in the catchbox and hose is about 2 cu ft then most of the air is gone in 1.5 seconds. I like to see a person get down a ladder in 1.5 sec. It is a question of how long the bees can live without breathing.
I don?t think we disagree at all. The situation you describe (plugged hose) happens rarely and if you are positioned to address it immediately - or PREVENT it - which I described in an earlier post (ie, don?t work ALONE, place yourself next to the system have an assistant, use a short hose - there is no real danger to the bees.) How much risk one is willing to take is an individual choice. To me the fastest and most straightforward part of every cutout is the cutout itself. I literally spend hours emailing, texting and speaking with each client in preparation, before I even get to the site.
The sites are often very distant from my location - on average an hour drive - which makes a visit difficult and I must review and discuss numerous photos with the client, the scaffolding person or lift equipment supplier. There are times when I must fully inspect the site which includes thermal imaging - but this adds on extra cost for the client. But 95% of the time a visit is unnecessary.
All this to say, it is the preparation and planning for the job itself that is the single MOST crucial part of the job. And that planning (and lessons learned from mistakes) that lead me to the opinions I?ve expressed here.
Robo described very real scenarios that can be completely avoided in my view - and in my experience have never had to address.
-
Someday, they?ll make plexiglass buckets.)
It would be tough to keep clean and plexiglass has a tendency to crack if not very thick. You can cut a hole in the bucket, add a screen and cover it up with a drain stopper. Peal the stopper away when you want to look in.
I forgot to make this comment a while back. Someone mentioned that the valve is hard to turn. Just go to HD and get a tube of valve lubricant. Close the valve and dab a little on each side of the ball. There are two o-ring seals. You don't need much. It will make it free as a breeze. Colorado should have done this before they shipped vacs out.
This is GREAT advice. Thanks, Ace.
-
I agree 2Sox, Prep ahead of time. On my first cutout I learned the value of a small bucket of water, (I like the 2 1/2 gal. icing bucket with a handle), along with a hanging towel, both hanging from the ladder by home built ladder hooks/hangers. Similar to the hooks sold by coleman for hanging their lanterns at camping sites.
Some Gung Ho folks may go years and never consider such, continuing business as usual, full steam ahead without the added thought of small details.
-
The issues you write about have come up occasionally for me, but I?m able to address them pretty fast because I NEVER do cutouts on a ladder and I never do them alone. I mean never. In my opinion and in my experience - and I mean no insult to anyone who does - it is extremely unwise to work alone - AND dangerous.
You are much more disciplined than most beekeepers then, kudos. I know many NWCOs that would starve if they tried sticking to this. I guess it all comes down to the area of the country and client base.
The other reason I can avoid many of the issues you describe - and I mentioned this before - is that I never use a hose longer that 8-10 feet. From my experience, long hoses are a disaster and kill bees. This is a rule that has no exceptions for me.
Most of my guys use a 20ft as standard. Some do not hesitate adding up to another 20ft if needed with minimal increase of dead bees. The added stress of a few more feet ride down the hose is much less than hours being quarantined in a strange cage and then being dumped out later.
-
Now might be a good time to mention it would be a good idea for a person who does these dangerous ones, have an assistant for those hard to reach rough messy cutouts. Safety and convenience being two main reasons. An extra person on the ground, when particle, would be handy and not a bad idea to help remedy such as you described. This would or should eliminate most if not all of these unforeseen variables making the job easier as well.
Unfortunately a lot of NWCOs are 1 man operations and don't have the luxury of employing a helper. Safety is key and should be taken into consideration always. I have "slowed down" as I age, no more cut-outs 3 stories up cutting through 3 stacked - 2x12 to get to the bees because the property owner doesn't want to inconvenience the tenants by going through the ceiling :shocked: I'll pass them on to the young-ins
(https://i.ibb.co/rtZVBCh/IMG-4495.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZxCkHrh/IMG-4496.jpg)
-
Good example. I was thinking more in line of a man on the ladder thinking in lines of your last example. Man on a 20 foot ladder. I have also posted a video of JP and Emerald doing a similar job as your picture here, using the RoBo vac along with a pool hose. They had great results and success. I cant remember if they had a man on the ground or not. I posted that video in the other section where this topic spun off from. 2Sox Topic: (Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?) post 39. They had no problems with your vac, even using the pool hose. Actually they said all went great if I remember correctly.
Which in my opinion is a great complement to you and your vac.
JP was using a man lift.
-
I have also posted a video of JP and Emerald doing a similar job as your picture here, using the RoBo vac along with a pool hose. They had great results and success. They had no problems with your vac, even using the pool hose. Actually they said all went great if I remember correctly.
Which in my opinion is a great complement to you and your vac.
JP was using a man lift.
JP use to be a regular here before he became a facebook star :cool: and was one of the first I sent a protoype of my bee vac too. In fairness I believe he also collaborated with the colorado bee vac and had good things to say about it. JP is not a typical bee remover and is not fond of using bee vacs, he prefers a more traditional method (at least that was back a while ago before I lost touch with him).
-
I have also posted a video of JP and Emerald doing a similar job as your picture here, using the RoBo vac along with a pool hose. They had great results and success. They had no problems with your vac, even using the pool hose. Actually they said all went great if I remember correctly.
Which in my opinion is a great complement to you and your vac.
JP was using a man lift.
JP use to be a regular here before he became a facebook star :cool: and was one of the first I sent a protoype of my bee vac too. In fairness I believe he also collaborated with the colorado bee vac and had good things to say about it. JP is not a typical bee remover and is not fond of using bee vacs, he prefers a more traditional method (at least that was back a while ago before I lost touch with him).
Haa haa he is not typical for sure. Nor is his good friend Schawee! They seem like swell folks. Like folks I grew up with. I mean it in a very good way... I wish they would start posting here again lol. Or at least a visit Once in a while.
-
The issues you write about have come up occasionally for me, but I?m able to address them pretty fast because I NEVER do cutouts on a ladder and I never do them alone. I mean never. In my opinion and in my experience - and I mean no insult to anyone who does - it is extremely unwise to work alone - AND dangerous.
You are much more disciplined than most beekeepers then, kudos. I know many NWCOs that would starve if they tried sticking to this. I guess it all comes down to the area of the country and client base.
The other reason I can avoid many of the issues you describe - and I mentioned this before - is that I never use a hose longer that 8-10 feet. From my experience, long hoses are a disaster and kill bees. This is a rule that has no exceptions for me.
Most of my guys use a 20ft as standard. Some do not hesitate adding up to another 20ft if needed with minimal increase of dead bees. The added stress of a few more feet ride down the hose is much less than hours being quarantined in a strange cage and then being dumped out later.
Thanks, Robo. I am very fortunate. I?m a retired teacher with a pension. I don?t need to do cutouts for the income. I do them for the fun. And the challenge. So how an NWCO would approach these jobs, and how I approach them are very different. And I can understand that completely.
I recently had a conversation with the husband and wife co-owners of a NWCO in Westchester County (bordering The Bronx of NYC - for those unfamiliar with the geography) about how we could mutually benefit each other. One day, I was invited to join his crew of FIVE on a cutout. (Why he had five men on his team for this is a mystery to me). When I arrived, I told him that neither I or nor my assistant would go up 20-25 feet on that ladder to reach the soffit with the bees. There was no fall protection for anyone - no safety mechanism. My assistant and I started to go back to my vehicle, but my assistant Nowel said he?d rather do it and make some money than go home. There were two ladders with a man on each and the extra guys were spotters. I was on the ground cutting and mounting comb and placing them into boxes.
The cutout was done and needless to say it took much longer than necessary, was messier than necessary and killed more bees than necessary. Lowering brood comb and honey comb in a bucket up and down a ladder is sloppy, shoddy work in my opinion. I?ve seen it on YouTube and when I do, I cringe. They were using an Owens by the way.
That would have been a scaffolding or boom lift job if I had taken it on.
Regarding client base.
I agree with you. Most of my jobs come from pest management company referrals. (Some from listings on the bee forums and other sites.) One is the largest in Westchester County, NY I have been subcontracting for, for many years. Their client base is mostly all millionaires; probably a few billionaires. They will wait to get the job done. They will pay extra for scaffolding and/or boom lifts. I?ve seen that money isn?t really a big issue with most of them. It?s a plus that the company recommends me and my references are good.
Regarding bucket vacs:
I want to make clear that the Owens is ALWAYS a last resort for me. I also want to make clear that I have had bees remain in cages overnight, sprayed them with sugar water before putting them to bed, and the next day they were just fine. My theory is that the few dead on the cage bottom were weakened or died during the vacuuming - not from being left in the cage. If it?s a swarm, they are gently released (not dumped) the next day into an empty super on top of a super (or two, or three) with frames of honey and pollen with a dash of lemongrass oil on the top bars. If its a cutout, the same but the cut brood combs are beneath them. No problems yet.
Regarding long hoses:
Anecdotal reports of 'a minimum increase in dead bees' in long hoses is a relative expression/term. ANY dead bees inside a hose is TOO many dead bees for me. And frankly, I think most guys who use these extended length hoses don?t realize how many die inside their hoses (or won?t admit it). I have been there. I know. I was absolutely astonished when I first realized the mortality inside those long hoses. The losses were unacceptable. Moderate length hoses for me produce NO dead bees inside a hose. In my view, NO is substantially better than ?A MINIMUM?.
The reasons I never work on a ladder are many:
Its exhausting
Its dangerous.
Its sloppy.
It takes forever.
If cutouts every stop being fun for me, that?s the day I stop doing them.
-
>Anecdotal reports of 'a minimum increase in dead bees' in long hoses is a relative expression/term. ANY dead bees inside a hose is TOO many dead bees for me. And frankly, I think most guys who use these extended length hoses don?t realize how many die inside their hoses (or won?t admit it).
Well 2Sox, I don't know Anecdotal. lol. I can only report or speak of what I do know from my own personal experience. What I have reported has been accurate in my own personal experience, using a long hose (30') and my own personal home built beevac combo. Since I am not a bee vac salesman (regardless of , what my font says lol), and have no dog in the hunt except sharing my own personal experiences, in an attempt helping us, help each other better understand bee vacs. I have no reason to misguide or mislead you with my shared experiences of my successful vac/hose combination. I would not intentionally do so. My vac and hose combination may be unique? I do not know because I have never used any other or even seen any other in person, only what I have seen on videos. Shweu wee, I hope that helps. :cheesy: :grin:
-
Robo described very real scenarios that can be completely avoided in my view - and in my experience have never had to address.
All I can say is we are not all experts. Many new beekeepers try cutouts for the first time. The more forgiving the equipment is the better especially when it doesn't add cost to the system.
-
no more cut-outs 3 stories up cutting through 3 stacked - 2x12 to get to the bees because the property owner doesn't want to inconvenience the tenants by going through the ceiling :shocked:
The property owner is a blooming idiot. The structure is there for a reason. You could have a catastrophe removing structure and you are liable no matter what the customer wants. Taking structure out is easy. Putting it back to where it will handle the same load is not so easy.
-
If cutouts every stop being fun for me, that?s the day I stop doing them.
That is probably the reason I have never done one. I have seen videos and for the life of me I can't find anything fun about them. All I have seen is a hot sticky mess with ticked off stinging insect. How can you cut through honey and comb without making a mess? I am not overly fond of the extraction process when you collect honey. That is a sticky mess too but I love the honey.
-
If cutouts every stop being fun for me, that?s the day I stop doing them.
That is probably the reason I have never done one. I have seen videos and for the life of me I can't find anything fun about them. All I have seen is a hot sticky mess with ticked off stinging insect. How can you cut through honey and comb without making a mess? I am not overly fond of the extraction process when you collect honey. That is a sticky mess too but I love the honey.
I definitely hear you. As I get older, I tell myself every year, that THIS is the last one. It is getting to that point. Let the youngsters take over.
-
This is just a suggestion: Assuming Jim has another beefest those that own these bee vacs could bring them for a show and tell. We can talk face to face about the differences, maybe even do some testing. Play with some bucket designs. Jim might even have a sacrificial hive that we could suck up some bees. LOL
-
Yes using the 30 foot hose test on each! If I have to go through all that trouble to convince you, I may indeed be forced to proceed into the beevac business. Therefore you and 2Sox have to promise to be my first two customers of buying my vac paying for my trip! lol 😂 :wink:
PS do not worry Jim, your bees are in good hands with my.vac. 😊 Adding the hotter the day the better I will like the competition!
-
Lol what would I do with the vac? Probably the only bees I would ever vacuum up would be Jim's. BTW he has it in March and lives in the north so I might be wearing a jacket. Ha, ha , ha
-
Lol what would I do with the vac? Probably the only bees I would ever vacuum up would be Jim's. BTW he has it in March and lives in the north so I might be wearing a jacket. Ha, ha , ha
Ha Ha Ha is just about what I figured.... :cheesy: :wink: Brian most swarm recoveries are in April- early-May in my area. Now, cutouts are a different matter. I have done them in the Heat of August. That is where the real comparison would be made manifest. Right out in the middle of the hot sun.
-
This is just a suggestion: Assuming Jim has another beefest those that own these bee vacs could bring them for a show and tell. We can talk face to face about the differences, maybe even do some testing. Play with some bucket designs. Jim might even have a sacrificial hive that we could suck up some bees. LOL
Yes using the 30 foot hose test on each! If I have to go through all that trouble to convince you, I may indeed be forced to proceed into the beevac business. Therefore you and 2Sox have to promise to be my first two customers of buying my vac paying for my trip! lol 😂 :wink:
PS do not worry Jim, your bees are in good hands with my.vac. 😊 Adding the hotter the day the better I will like the competition!
Lol what would I do with the vac? Probably the only bees I would ever vacuum up would be Jim's. BTW he has it in March and lives in the north so I might be wearing a jacket. Ha, ha , ha
Ha Ha Ha is just about what I figured.... :cheesy: :wink: Brian most swarm recoveries are in April- early-May in my area. Now, cutouts are a different matter. I have done them in the Heat of August. That is where the real comparison would be made manifest. Right out in the middle of the hot sun.
> Lol what would I do with the vac?
You can get back in the bee business! lol; QUICKLY :shocked: :cheesy: :wink:
-
Bee business in FL ... NEVER!