Welcome, Guest
Login or Register
Home
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Couple Questions About a Split  (Read 4855 times)

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4497
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Couple Questions About a Split
« on: March 19, 2020, 08:48:30 pm »
I did my first inspection of one of my hives today, and decided they needed to be split.  The hive was packed, and there was hardly any more room for the queen to lay.  There were no queen cells or cups anywhere that I could see.  I put a couple frames with eggs and capped brood in the split along with some pollen frames and some honey frames from my deadout.  I found the queen and left her in the original hive and checkerboarded the brood nest with drawn comb.  It's only the 2nd time I've done a split and I had my smoker go dead and forgot some equipment, so the hive was open for a long time, longer than I would have liked, and the girls were so forgiving, I barely even needed to smoke them all afternoon.   

Question 1: There was a lot of drone brood in this hive, like almost 1/2 the brood was drones.  Is that normal for a hive at this point in the year?  Or could the queen be failing? 

Question 2: Should I check the split next week to see if the bees in there are making a queen, or should I just leave them go?     
Logged
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2020, 08:56:46 pm »
Hi Member: regarding your question about drone brood.  My experience is when a queen is thinking about swarming, the first indication is she lays a lot of drone brood,  Queen cells follow, then swarming.

Ms. Member, you caught the hive in time.  You did good.  There are several options you could have taken, but providing more space for the queen to lay is precedent and that you did.

Van
Logged
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12649
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2020, 11:34:37 pm »
>   I put a couple frames with eggs and capped brood in the split along with some pollen frames and some honey frames
     from my deadout.

     Member,  I have split a few hives and what you did sounds good to me, and I agree with Van. What I am about to say
     is a matter of preference of the individual beekeeper. One beekeeper which lives near to me, and is quiet well
     known, says he likes to use three frames in a situation as you described if I remember correctly, two frames of capped
     brood and the frame as you described with larva and eggs. I suppose this would get them off to a stronger start?

     Others say in spring, one frame of mixed, capped brood, and eggs along with another frame of
     empty comb is adequate for an early split but usually a queen cell is involved. Food for thought: Personally, and this is
     just my opinion, for my particular circumstances. I plan to add several hives this season, and will be going the second
     route. For me, a two frame mating nuc will be the avenue graduating to a 5 frame nuc when the time is right and
     eventually to a 10 framer. 

     This is a subject that you are sure to get different opinions and points of view from different beekeepers. Remember
     there is more than one way to accomplish success. In my opinion, diverse answers are good for all. I wish you well
     with your new hive!

     Phillip Hall
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 12:13:31 am by Ben Framed »
Logged
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline cao

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1692
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2020, 01:17:52 am »
Yes a lot of drone brood is common this time of year in a strong hive.  I think you did alright with your split.  I usually move the queen with my splits.  I let the original hive make the queen cells.  I would check your hive again fairly soon because this time of year it doesn't that long for a queen to fill that empty space that you provided.
Logged

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2020, 06:41:53 am »
cao says:  "I usually move the queen with my splits."

I say:  "I always move the queen with my splits."

That way, the hive thinks it has swarmed, and the weaker split has immediate new eggs.
Logged
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline jimineycricket

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2020, 10:53:07 am »
Quote
I say:  "I always move the queen with my splits."
That way, the hive thinks it has swarmed, and the weaker split has immediate new eggs.
And the stronger hive with the most nurse bee raises the new queen.
Logged
jimmy

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4497
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2020, 02:15:05 pm »
Quote from: jimineycricket on March 20, 2020, 10:53:07 am
Quote
I say:  "I always move the queen with my splits."
That way, the hive thinks it has swarmed, and the weaker split has immediate new eggs.
And the stronger hive with the most nurse bee raises the new queen.
I'll remember this for next time.  I figured it didn't matter since the hive wasn't actually in swarm mode, but I didn't think about the stronger hive being able to produce a stronger queen. 

Quote from: van from Arkansas on March 19, 2020, 08:56:46 pm
Hi Member: regarding your question about drone brood.  My experience is when a queen is thinking about swarming, the first indication is she lays a lot of drone brood,  Queen cells follow, then swarming.
Quote from: cao on March 20, 2020, 01:17:52 am
Yes a lot of drone brood is common this time of year in a strong hive.  I think you did alright with your split.  I usually move the queen with my splits.  I let the original hive make the queen cells.  I would check your hive again fairly soon because this time of year it doesn't that long for a queen to fill that empty space that you provided.
Good to know about the drone brood, thanks so much. 

Quote from: Ben Framed on March 19, 2020, 11:34:37 pm
>   I put a couple frames with eggs and capped brood in the split along with some pollen frames and some honey frames
     from my deadout.

     Member,  I have split a few hives and what you did sounds good to me, and I agree with Van. What I am about to say
     is a matter of preference of the individual beekeeper. One beekeeper which lives near to me, and is quiet well
     known, says he likes to use three frames in a situation as you described if I remember correctly, two frames of capped
     brood and the frame as you described with larva and eggs. I suppose this would get them off to a stronger start?

     Others say in spring, one frame of mixed, capped brood, and eggs along with another frame of
     empty comb is adequate for an early split but usually a queen cell is involved. Food for thought: Personally, and this is
     just my opinion, for my particular circumstances. I plan to add several hives this season, and will be going the second
     route. For me, a two frame mating nuc will be the avenue graduating to a 5 frame nuc when the time is right and
     eventually to a 10 framer. 

     This is a subject that you are sure to get different opinions and points of view from different beekeepers. Remember
     there is more than one way to accomplish success. In my opinion, diverse answers are good for all. I wish you well
     with your new hive!

     Phillip Hall
I know there are a lot of opinions about splits out there and I just kind of tried not to get bogged down in it and sort of just used logic to know what to transfer over and what to leave.  I wasn't really following any sort of formula, just making sure the new hive had frames that contained everything they needed.  I'm sure I'll narrow down what exactly is best for my location and my beekeeping style as I do more splits. 

Nobody actually answered my other question, which is when to check on the split next.  Should I check them in a week to see if they are making queens?  And if so, should I remove any extra queen cells if they have made more than one, or should I just leave them to work it out naturally, since the split isn't in danger of swarming? 
Logged
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2020, 02:24:23 pm »
Should YOU? Who knows.

I wait 6 to 11 days ald look for capped queen cells. I never remove queen cells other than to make more nucs. I don't destroy queen cells.
Logged
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4497
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2020, 04:20:24 pm »
Quote from: iddee on March 20, 2020, 02:24:23 pm
Should YOU? Who knows.

I wait 6 to 11 days ald look for capped queen cells. I never remove queen cells other than to make more nucs. I don't destroy queen cells.
Note to self: Always ask iddee what he does, not what you should do.  :wink: :cheesy:  Thanks for the advice, and for not forcing your opinion on me.  :grin:
Logged
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12649
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2020, 05:26:24 pm »
Same here. Iddee knows bees.
Logged
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline MikeyN.C.

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 525
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2020, 09:28:55 pm »
15,
If there are 2-3 frames with Queen cells. Then make nucs. As iddee. said u have to pull the mother Q.  And move her in a box . that way u simulate a swarm. And left over bee's with 2-3 day eggs,  Will make a Q . If split rite
Logged

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4497
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2020, 06:46:31 pm »
I inspected the original hive today.  The queen filled up all the checkerboarded frames and I have a bunch of swarm cells.  None are capped, but most are pretty far along.  Should I split again, or are they irrevocably in swarm mode now? 
Logged
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2020, 07:01:51 pm »
This time, move the queen and 2 to 4 frames of brood and food.
Logged
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Nock

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 631
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2020, 07:12:03 pm »
Did the split make QCs? 
Logged

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4497
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2020, 07:52:39 pm »
Quote from: iddee on April 04, 2020, 07:01:51 pm
This time, move the queen and 2 to 4 frames of brood and food.
Thanks, iddee.  I'll be sure to move the queen this time.  Just for the sake of learning, at what point will a split no longer work? 

Quote from: Nock on April 04, 2020, 07:12:03 pm
Did the split make QCs? 
Yes, they did.  :happy:  Now it's just the 3 week wait for the queen to mate and start laying.   
Logged
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2020, 08:31:02 pm »
ID, if I find swarm cells, [very rare] I agreed, I always move the queen to the new split.  In Ms. Members case, she caught the hive just in time, before swarm cells made.  So in this specific case I think leaving the queen in place was a good idea by Ms. Member.

Just to clarify, ID; did you mean you always move the queen when making splits OR did you mean with swarm cells and splits you always move the queen?  I as well as ID, can make either work, there is no right or wrong here.  Just clarifying exactly ID means as I have a lot of respect for the fella.

As you know, I raise queens.  My Alpha queen has not moved in over 4 years, however many splits were made to control her laying, especially in her second year.

Health to your bees,

Van
Logged
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2020, 09:42:19 pm »
If the purpose of the split is just for more hives, either is fine.

If the purpose is to prevent swarming, ALWAYS remove the queen, whether after the cells are made, as she has now, or before they are made, as she had before.

A split without the queen does nothing to prevent a swarm. Removing the queen with a split tells the original hive that they have swarmed, and don't need to now.
Logged
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12649
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2020, 10:49:12 pm »
Member the bright side is we all learned something from Van and Iddee, as well as some good posting by the others, and, you will now have three hives from the one! Congratulations!

Phillip Hall 
Logged
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1389
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2020, 12:41:34 am »
I agree with iddee on all accounts.
Logged
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Bob Wilson

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1105
  • Gender: Male
Re: Couple Questions About a Split
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2020, 08:48:59 am »
Having followed this thread,  I now understand my mistake in February this year. The hive made 6-8 queen cells. I split the hive but didn't see the queen, which stayed in the original hive. All the bees left the split and went back to the original hive, which swarmed a few days later anyhow.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
« previous next »