Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: The15thMember on March 19, 2020, 08:48:30 pm
-
I did my first inspection of one of my hives today, and decided they needed to be split. The hive was packed, and there was hardly any more room for the queen to lay. There were no queen cells or cups anywhere that I could see. I put a couple frames with eggs and capped brood in the split along with some pollen frames and some honey frames from my deadout. I found the queen and left her in the original hive and checkerboarded the brood nest with drawn comb. It's only the 2nd time I've done a split and I had my smoker go dead and forgot some equipment, so the hive was open for a long time, longer than I would have liked, and the girls were so forgiving, I barely even needed to smoke them all afternoon.
Question 1: There was a lot of drone brood in this hive, like almost 1/2 the brood was drones. Is that normal for a hive at this point in the year? Or could the queen be failing?
Question 2: Should I check the split next week to see if the bees in there are making a queen, or should I just leave them go?
-
Hi Member: regarding your question about drone brood. My experience is when a queen is thinking about swarming, the first indication is she lays a lot of drone brood, Queen cells follow, then swarming.
Ms. Member, you caught the hive in time. You did good. There are several options you could have taken, but providing more space for the queen to lay is precedent and that you did.
Van
-
> I put a couple frames with eggs and capped brood in the split along with some pollen frames and some honey frames
from my deadout.
Member, I have split a few hives and what you did sounds good to me, and I agree with Van. What I am about to say
is a matter of preference of the individual beekeeper. One beekeeper which lives near to me, and is quiet well
known, says he likes to use three frames in a situation as you described if I remember correctly, two frames of capped
brood and the frame as you described with larva and eggs. I suppose this would get them off to a stronger start?
Others say in spring, one frame of mixed, capped brood, and eggs along with another frame of
empty comb is adequate for an early split but usually a queen cell is involved. Food for thought: Personally, and this is
just my opinion, for my particular circumstances. I plan to add several hives this season, and will be going the second
route. For me, a two frame mating nuc will be the avenue graduating to a 5 frame nuc when the time is right and
eventually to a 10 framer.
This is a subject that you are sure to get different opinions and points of view from different beekeepers. Remember
there is more than one way to accomplish success. In my opinion, diverse answers are good for all. I wish you well
with your new hive!
Phillip Hall
-
Yes a lot of drone brood is common this time of year in a strong hive. I think you did alright with your split. I usually move the queen with my splits. I let the original hive make the queen cells. I would check your hive again fairly soon because this time of year it doesn't that long for a queen to fill that empty space that you provided.
-
cao says: "I usually move the queen with my splits."
I say: "I always move the queen with my splits."
That way, the hive thinks it has swarmed, and the weaker split has immediate new eggs.
-
I say: "I always move the queen with my splits."
That way, the hive thinks it has swarmed, and the weaker split has immediate new eggs.
And the stronger hive with the most nurse bee raises the new queen.
-
I say: "I always move the queen with my splits."
That way, the hive thinks it has swarmed, and the weaker split has immediate new eggs.
And the stronger hive with the most nurse bee raises the new queen.
I'll remember this for next time. I figured it didn't matter since the hive wasn't actually in swarm mode, but I didn't think about the stronger hive being able to produce a stronger queen.
Hi Member: regarding your question about drone brood. My experience is when a queen is thinking about swarming, the first indication is she lays a lot of drone brood, Queen cells follow, then swarming.
Yes a lot of drone brood is common this time of year in a strong hive. I think you did alright with your split. I usually move the queen with my splits. I let the original hive make the queen cells. I would check your hive again fairly soon because this time of year it doesn't that long for a queen to fill that empty space that you provided.
Good to know about the drone brood, thanks so much.
> I put a couple frames with eggs and capped brood in the split along with some pollen frames and some honey frames
from my deadout.
Member, I have split a few hives and what you did sounds good to me, and I agree with Van. What I am about to say
is a matter of preference of the individual beekeeper. One beekeeper which lives near to me, and is quiet well
known, says he likes to use three frames in a situation as you described if I remember correctly, two frames of capped
brood and the frame as you described with larva and eggs. I suppose this would get them off to a stronger start?
Others say in spring, one frame of mixed, capped brood, and eggs along with another frame of
empty comb is adequate for an early split but usually a queen cell is involved. Food for thought: Personally, and this is
just my opinion, for my particular circumstances. I plan to add several hives this season, and will be going the second
route. For me, a two frame mating nuc will be the avenue graduating to a 5 frame nuc when the time is right and
eventually to a 10 framer.
This is a subject that you are sure to get different opinions and points of view from different beekeepers. Remember
there is more than one way to accomplish success. In my opinion, diverse answers are good for all. I wish you well
with your new hive!
Phillip Hall
I know there are a lot of opinions about splits out there and I just kind of tried not to get bogged down in it and sort of just used logic to know what to transfer over and what to leave. I wasn't really following any sort of formula, just making sure the new hive had frames that contained everything they needed. I'm sure I'll narrow down what exactly is best for my location and my beekeeping style as I do more splits.
Nobody actually answered my other question, which is when to check on the split next. Should I check them in a week to see if they are making queens? And if so, should I remove any extra queen cells if they have made more than one, or should I just leave them to work it out naturally, since the split isn't in danger of swarming?
-
Should YOU? Who knows.
I wait 6 to 11 days ald look for capped queen cells. I never remove queen cells other than to make more nucs. I don't destroy queen cells.
-
Should YOU? Who knows.
I wait 6 to 11 days ald look for capped queen cells. I never remove queen cells other than to make more nucs. I don't destroy queen cells.
Note to self: Always ask iddee what he does, not what you should do. :wink: :cheesy: Thanks for the advice, and for not forcing your opinion on me. :grin:
-
Same here. Iddee knows bees.
-
15,
If there are 2-3 frames with Queen cells. Then make nucs. As iddee. said u have to pull the mother Q. And move her in a box . that way u simulate a swarm. And left over bee's with 2-3 day eggs, Will make a Q . If split rite
-
I inspected the original hive today. The queen filled up all the checkerboarded frames and I have a bunch of swarm cells. None are capped, but most are pretty far along. Should I split again, or are they irrevocably in swarm mode now?
-
This time, move the queen and 2 to 4 frames of brood and food.
-
Did the split make QCs?
-
This time, move the queen and 2 to 4 frames of brood and food.
Thanks, iddee. I'll be sure to move the queen this time. Just for the sake of learning, at what point will a split no longer work?
Did the split make QCs?
Yes, they did. :happy: Now it's just the 3 week wait for the queen to mate and start laying.
-
ID, if I find swarm cells, [very rare] I agreed, I always move the queen to the new split. In Ms. Members case, she caught the hive just in time, before swarm cells made. So in this specific case I think leaving the queen in place was a good idea by Ms. Member.
Just to clarify, ID; did you mean you always move the queen when making splits OR did you mean with swarm cells and splits you always move the queen? I as well as ID, can make either work, there is no right or wrong here. Just clarifying exactly ID means as I have a lot of respect for the fella.
As you know, I raise queens. My Alpha queen has not moved in over 4 years, however many splits were made to control her laying, especially in her second year.
Health to your bees,
Van
-
If the purpose of the split is just for more hives, either is fine.
If the purpose is to prevent swarming, ALWAYS remove the queen, whether after the cells are made, as she has now, or before they are made, as she had before.
A split without the queen does nothing to prevent a swarm. Removing the queen with a split tells the original hive that they have swarmed, and don't need to now.
-
Member the bright side is we all learned something from Van and Iddee, as well as some good posting by the others, and, you will now have three hives from the one! Congratulations!
Phillip Hall
-
I agree with iddee on all accounts.
-
Having followed this thread, I now understand my mistake in February this year. The hive made 6-8 queen cells. I split the hive but didn't see the queen, which stayed in the original hive. All the bees left the split and went back to the original hive, which swarmed a few days later anyhow.
-
If the purpose of the split is just for more hives, either is fine.
If the purpose is to prevent swarming, ALWAYS remove the queen, whether after the cells are made, as she has now, or before they are made, as she had before.
A split without the queen does nothing to prevent a swarm. Removing the queen with a split tells the original hive that they have swarmed, and don't need to now.
Yes, agreed. Thank you ID.
Van
-
Thanks so much everyone. All of this makes good sense. I have another hive that needs splitting as well, so I guess tomorrow will be "split day". :grin:
-
Thanks so much everyone. All of this makes good sense. I have another hive that needs splitting as well, so I guess tomorrow will be "split day". :grin:
WOW! Sourwood honey for sure! lol. :wink:
-
I pulled the queens from 4 of my hives Friday. So next weekend will be nuc making time. This is how I usually make my splits. The other way is just a walkaway split when I am being really lazy.
-
I pulled the queens from 4 of my hives Friday. So next weekend will be nuc making time. This is how I usually make my splits. The other way is just a walkaway split when I am being really lazy.
Cao what do you do with the queens in the meantime? Did you go ahead and use them as a split? I like your method.
Phillip Hall
-
Well my bees must have heard me talking about splitting today, because they swarmed this morning! :cheesy: It was a really easy catch; they landed on basically the smallest tree in the area. My sister and I just shook them off it and into a bin and then dumped them into a newly setup hive. It took a couple of trips, because not all of them fell off the tree on the first try, but now they're all quiet and happy, so I'm pretty confident we got the queen.
-
Phillip
When I pull a queen, I take the frame I find her on(I rarely touch my queens) put in a nuc box. Add a couple frames with brood and food. And a couple empty(preferably drawn) frames. And check back next week to see if she still has room. When the nuc gets full, I either add another nuc box of move them into a full hive.
15
If you know which hive swarmed you can go through that hive and pull some of the capped queen cells for nucs. As long as you leave a couple left for the main hive. I've seen some hives with 20 or more queen cells in them after they swarm.
-
15
If you know which hive swarmed you can go through that hive and pull some of the capped queen cells for nucs. As long as you leave a couple left for the main hive. I've seen some hives with 20 or more queen cells in them after they swarm.
I'm going to go in today and reduce the queen cells. I failed to do that with a hive last year and it nearly swarmed itself to death. I hate to waste the queen cells, but unfortunately I don't have any more equipment. My goal was to get to 6 hives this year and I'm there already.
-
As far as equipment goes. I have found, if you build it they will come. You can never have enough boxes. :grin:
-
As far as equipment goes. I have found, if you build it they will come. You can never have enough boxes. :grin:
X-2
-
As far as equipment goes. I have found, if you build it they will come. You can never have enough boxes. :grin:
I'm sure that is true. It's only my third year though, and I'm trying to build up slowly so that I don't get in over my head by expanding too fast. I started the year with 3 hives, so I've doubled my number already! :happy:
-
As far as equipment goes. I have found, if you build it they will come. You can never have enough boxes. :grin:
I'm sure that is true. It's only my third year though, and I'm trying to build up slowly so that I don't get in over my head by expanding too fast. I started the year with 3 hives, so I've doubled my number already! :happy:
Member you are right on target for your bee desires. My X2 was for my situation. I am working toward a number goal and it seems in my situation I am always putting more woodware into use. However, if you did have more woodware, say in nuc boxes, you could sell the nucs for a really good price. Just a thought.
Phillip
-
My sister, my mom, and I were walking out to the garage on the way to do some running around (while observing social distancing, of course), and we noticed a swarm on a tree nearby where we caught the swarm yesterday. I quick threw on a veil and popped open the lid on the swarm we caught yesterday. Gone. So my sister went and got the swarm catching stuff, and I went into another hive and grabbed a frame of young brood to put in the hive to induce them to stay this time (which aggravatingly took a while, since I wasn't suited up and this hive is queenless, so they weren't too happy with me). The swarm wasn't high up again, but they weren't clustered nicely like yesterday; they were all up and down the trunk and not in a nice ball. My sister tried brushing them off the trunk but it made them angry, and she got stung pretty good on her wrist. So we sawed the trunk until we could bend the tree over and then shook them into a bin. We got about half of them, and they started to recluster, so my sister took the bin to the waiting hive, and I kept an eye out for the queen on the ground. And lo and behold, there she was! crawling up a broken off stem. I snagged her in my queen catcher and popped her in the hive while my sister went to get the rest of the bees. Never a dull moment during swarm season! :happy:
-
Good job by both you and your sister. If your queen catcher is the hair clip style, leave her in it until Sat. or Sun. They will feed her. 4 days should settle them enough to stay.
PS. If you and/or your family get down around High Point this summer, go by Beez Needz ""beezneedz.com" and ask for Iddee or Wally. I live only a mile from them and would gladly meet with you there.
-
Never a dull moment during swarm season!
Good for you Member - making memories to tell your grandkids one day
-
Never a dull moment during swarm season!
Good for you Member - making memories to tell your grandkids one day
Or better yet, I'll be beekeeping with my grandchildren while I tell them about it. :grin:
Good job by both you and your sister. If your queen catcher is the hair clip style, leave her in it until Sat. or Sun. They will feed her. 4 days should settle them enough to stay.
Thanks. Oh, I didn't even think to do that. Here's a picture of my queen catcher. Do you think they could feed her through those holes? I won't go back in and catch her or anything, just curious for future reference.
PS. If you and/or your family get down around High Point this summer, go by Beez Needz ""beezneedz.com" and ask for Iddee or Wally. I live only a mile from them and would gladly meet with you there.
Thanks so much for the offer, Wally. You're a little far for us unfortunately, or we'd probably have been to visit you already. We don't really tend to go out that way, or much of any way honestly. If we ever find ourselves out in your neck of the woods though, we'll definitely stop by.
-
Can the workers get out when you catch them in it? If so, they will feed her
-
Can the workers get out when you catch them in it? If so, they will feed her
No, the workers can't get in and out. I guess I could have thrown a queen excluder under the bottom box to keep her in.
-
This is the one I use. The workers can go in and out, but the queen can't.
https://beezneedz.com/product/metal-queen-catcher/
-
@Member
They should be able to feed her Member. I do like the cages better where the workers can come and go.
@Iddee
Iddee, I like your clips for more than one reason. You can place the cage easily between two frames because the ears are not sticking out to the sides as most of the plastic ones. Good stuff and your price is right! I will have to check out your beezneedz the next time I need to place an order. I would much rather support our friends here. Thanks Iddee
Phillip Hall