Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed

[The15thMember]

When I went up to my apiary to inspect today, I noticed a huge pile of dead bees in front of one of my hives, so I decided to open them up and take a look.  At first I wasn't concerned, as there seemed to be a fair number of bees in the top box, although I did notice a few dysentery stains inside the hive.  But as I took the top box off, a bunch of bees flew out of the second box, with that trademark "robber-fleeing-the-scene" look about them.  There were hardly any bees in the bottom box, and I noticed a pile of bees on the slatted rack, so I removed the bottom box as well.  Then I saw the bottom board.    You can see the carnage for yourself in the pictures. 

Here's the background: I split this queen's hive on 3/23.  This half of the split contained the original queen, Queen Persephone.  I did a sugar roll on the hive the same day I split them, and there were no mites.  (All my hives came off the winter clean or mathematically so.)  I did queen cell reduction on the queenless half of the split on 4/1, and they looked completely fine.  Sometime last week, I noticed this hive, the one with the queen, had a big pile of dead drones out front, which I assumed was a result of a little cold snap we had, but today all the dead bees were workers.  There was traffic coming in and out of the entrance, but I'm pretty sure they were just robbers, as they all left in disarray when I started to take the hive apart, then returned to continue to snoop about as I was dealing with the situation, and then started bugging the hive next door when I removed the equipment. 

I noticed the queen, who was being well attended, on the top bars of the top box, so I put her in my queen catcher for safe keeping while I worked.  Nothing about her seemed amiss.  Most of the bees in the top box looked fine, although a few were a little sluggish.  The craziest part was that the brood nest, comprising the majority of the bottom two boxes, also looked basically normal.  The brood pattern wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't shotgunned, and this queen has never been a perfectly orderly layer.  I'm pretty sure the brood was dead, since we had a very cold night last night, and something about it just seemed, I don't know, not alive.  But with the exception of a very few larvae/pupae that had some black spots on them (picture in next post), the brood was white, almost all of the young brood was fed, and there were eggs in the bottom box, which indicates to me that 3 days ago, everything was normal.  There was no honey anywhere, and there were some dead adults with their heads in cells, but we have lots of spring flowers blooming, so I can't see how they could have starved.  I'm assuming the stores were robbed out. 

I decided to shake all the surviving bees into clean equipment on a different stand, that way the robbers would be confused, and I could clean out all the equipment.  I put them in a single medium with a very reduced entrance, and I gave them 3 partial frames of honey, 1 of pollen, and the remaining 4 drawn blanks.  I did see one mite on one of the surviving workers.  I froze as many frames as I could fit in my freezer and buried the dead bees in the compost pile.  The dead bees looked very normal.  Some had tongues out and some didn't.  All had all their hair, and very few were struggling in the dead pile.  Those that were just looked sluggish or were on their backs and weakly moving their legs.   

All the other hives, as far as I know, are seemingly normal.  I inspected one other hive today, and they were a little bit low on food, and also oddly had no open brood in their bottom box, but nothing overly alarming.  I also did QC reduction in my mean hive, and while I didn't inspect their honey super, when I removed it, it felt quite heavy.  As I mentioned, we have lots of flowers blooming, the redbuds, crabapples, and dogwoods are all going very strong.  In spite of our coldish nighttime temps lately, we haven't had a frost, since it's been dry.  The days have been warm, and the hives have been cranking.  I collected a swarm today, which I'm pretty sure was from one of my other colonies.     

What do you guys think happened? 

(If you give me a second, I'll add the rest of my pictures in the next post.)             

[The15thMember]

More photos. 

[Bob Wilson]

Could this particular hive have found a nectar source that had been sprayed with poison? They dragged out some of the dying before the rest succumbed? Then the cold snap chilled the brood, but the queen and nursery bees are fine, and the comb looks good.

[The15thMember]

Could this particular hive have found a nectar source that had been sprayed with poison? They dragged out some of the dying before the rest succumbed? Then the cold snap chilled the brood, but the queen and nursery bees are fine, and the comb looks good.

This was my exact thought, but I didn't want to sway anyone's opinions by saying it up front.  It's really easy to point a finger and say "pesticide kill", but I can't think of any disease that would take down a healthy, relatively mite-free hive in 3 days.  If so, I hope, hope, hope the other bees don't find whatever it is, or that whatever it is isn't extremely dangerous for very long. 

[Michael Bush]

Are they planting corn?  The coatings on the corn seed are neonicotinoids and these often end up in piles of dust that get collected by the bees as pollen. 

[Ben Framed]

Had a similar problem a few years ago. Found out a nearby neighbor had just sprayed his pear trees.

Phillip

[Acebird]

I don't believe in cold snaps killing bees.  I do believe in hives miss calculating and running out of stores.  Robbing takes no more than a day and the queen would be dead and the comb would be tore up.  If the bees were poisoned the hive would be full of honey.  Just my thoughts.

[cao]

About ten years ago when I started beekeeping, the day after the neighbor planted corn(about 80 acre field) my hives had a pile of dead bees out front.  This happened 2 years in a row.  Although your situation looks much worse.  Poisoning by someone spraying fields seems a likely cause.

[The15thMember]

Are they planting corn?  The coatings on the corn seed are neonicotinoids and these often end up in piles of dust that get collected by the bees as pollen.

About ten years ago when I started beekeeping, the day after the neighbor planted corn(about 80 acre field) my hives had a pile of dead bees out front.  This happened 2 years in a row.  Although your situation looks much worse.  Poisoning by someone spraying fields seems a likely cause.

I would doubt around here it is corn.  We (thankfully) don't have any commercial farms nearby, and the land's not flat enough for corn anyway, except maybe in the valley. 

Had a similar problem a few years ago. Found out a nearby neighbor had just sprayed his pear trees.

Phillip

A fruit tree spray is far more likely in my opinion, just based on what people grow around here.  I'm also very close to the campus of WCU, and who knows if they sprayed anything, although I've never had any trouble with this before. 

I don't believe in cold snaps killing bees.  I do believe in hives miss calculating and running out of stores.  Robbing takes no more than a day and the queen would be dead and the comb would be tore up.  If the bees were poisoned the hive would be full of honey.  Just my thoughts.

I don't think the cold killed the adults, I think it killed the brood.  Also, my flow this time of year is kind of at equilibrium, with most hives not having much capped honey, although there is enough nectar coming in that I don't need to feed.  Most of the stores in this hive would have been open honey, not capped honey, so there would be no need for the robbers to tear up the comb.  The surviving bees were all up in the top of the hive, as if they had just abandoned the bottom boxes.  I wonder if they retreated up there away from the robbers, since the top was wasn't even fully drawn, or perhaps they clustered there in the cold and didn't warm up quickly enough to protect the bottom box the following morning.   

Thanks for the help everyone.

[The15thMember]

With an incident like this, what should I do in the way of cleaning the equipment?  Do I need to be concerned that the hive itself is contaminated?  Is this a vinegar thing, a bleach thing, a lay out in the sun for a few days thing?  I'll be freezing all the comb anyway, since it's a good opportunity to get rid of waxworms and beetles, but how much should I worry about the woodenware?  What about the comb?

[beesnweeds]

Something is definitely up with the brood.  It looks viral or bacterial to me.  Could be parasitic mite syndrome.  Scoop up a bunch of the dead bees on the bottom board and do a mite wash.  You can use a tablespoon of dish detergent to a half gallon of water.  You could also take some more photos of the brood and send them to Dr. Milbrath at MSU.

[The15thMember]

Something is definitely up with the brood.  It looks viral or bacterial to me.  Could be parasitic mite syndrome.  Scoop up a bunch of the dead bees on the bottom board and do a mite wash.  You can use a tablespoon of dish detergent to a half gallon of water.  You could also take some more photos of the brood and send them to Dr. Milbrath at MSU.

I did a mite check a few weeks ago, and it came up clean.  The overwhelming majority of the brood was entirely normal, maybe 10-15 cells that looked like that.   

[beesnweeds]

Probably pesticides then.

[yes2matt]

Pesticide kill. Make a phone call.

https://www.ncbeekeepers.org/resources/apiary-inspection-program

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Acebird]

Most of the stores in this hive would have been open honey, not capped honey, so there would be no need for the robbers to tear up the comb.

But they will anyway and they will kill the queen first.  However there won't be that many dead.  The hive is not made up of 50% soldiers.  Most will join the robbers and save their butts by joining the conquerors.  I am not saying it is not poison but I would expect honey and nectar in the hive unless it happened quite a bit in the future.  10 days, maybe.

[The15thMember]

They're still alive!    I haven't notice any robbing or foraging since I put them in this new box, so I peeked in at them today and the population appears stable.  No more bees are dying, and everyone looks healthy.  The queen had a section of eggs about the size of my palm on two frames, and they still had plenty of stores.  I thought about giving them a frame of capped brood to boost them up, but I'm not sure they have enough workers to keep more babies warm at the moment, so I just left them the way they are.     

[Acebird]

fingers crossed.

[Ben Framed]

fingers crossed.

Agreed, at least you have more good 'flow' time with hopefully plenty of recourses to yet help the colony get back on it feet. ..

Phillip

[The15thMember]

I switched the position of this hive and one of my strong hives on 4/18 to give the weak hive a boost in foragers, and today I found the queen dead just off the bottom board and the bees building queen cells.  Would the new foragers have killed the queen?  Or do you think the stress of this whole situation just caused them to supersede?

[Acebird]

Would the new foragers have killed the queen?

No, but if the initial die off was caused by robbers it might have started again.
If I assessed a hive as looking good I don't mess with it.

[The15thMember]

Would the new foragers have killed the queen?

No, but if the initial die off was caused by robbers it might have started again.
If I assessed a hive as looking good I don't mess with it.

Ok, thanks.  I've never done a position swap before, so I just wanted to be sure.  I haven't seen any robbing since I moved this colony into different equipment, and I have been keeping a close eye on them. 

[Ben Framed]

Sorry you lost your queen Member..

Phillip

[Michael Bush]

I have seen a queen balled by switching positions.  Usually she doesn't get killed though, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[The15thMember]

This colony made about 8 queen cells.  Obviously I don't need to reduce them to prevent swarming, as the colony is much too small.  I either heard or read somewhere recently about a technique where you take down the first capped queen cells and leave the uncapped ones, since the younger larvae are the last to cap, but are the most desirable for making a queens.  In this situation, would it be a good idea for me to remove the older QCs?  Or would it be better to just let the bees know best and leave all the cells?   

[Michael Bush]

I never remove queen cells.  The idea is that bees will start with too old of a larvae.  I don't believe that.  Neither did these beekeeping greats:

Jay Smith, from Better Queens
"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Quinby seems to agree:

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby
C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens
"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
A study:

David C. Gilley, David R. Tarpy, Benjamin B. Land: Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies

Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al. (1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing (the process by which workers rear queens from worker larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly) workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert 1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This variation in quality among queens gives workers the opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens that are fully developed, when the decision will be most accurate.

https://bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm

[The15thMember]

I never remove queen cells.  The idea is that bees will start with too old of a larvae.  I don't believe that.  Neither did these beekeeping greats:

Jay Smith, from Better Queens
"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Quinby seems to agree:

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby
C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens
"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
A study:

David C. Gilley, David R. Tarpy, Benjamin B. Land: Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies

Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al. (1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing (the process by which workers rear queens from worker larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly) workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert 1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This variation in quality among queens gives workers the opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens that are fully developed, when the decision will be most accurate.

https://bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm

Great!  Less work for me!    David Tarpy is actually my state extension apiarist. 

[Ben Framed]

This might not be related but you might want to check it out anyway Member.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=19859.msg150715#msg150715

[The15thMember]

As I mentioned on my swarm thread, I had another hive swarm this morning.  She's one of my favorite queens, and since I'm out of bottom boards, I decided to just combine the swarm with this small, struggling hive.  I put the swarm above them, with my double-screen board in between.  Tomorrow I'll remove the queen cells from the bottom box, give them a few days to get used to each other, and then remove the board.     

[The15thMember]

I removed the Snelgrove board today, and I did a quick check for brood in the top section with the queen, and dang it all if there wasn't any!  And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week.    I couldn't find the queen either, although I'd seen her when I hived the swarm.  It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her.  Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet.  I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to.     

[Kathyp]

And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. 

Some years ago I got some very good advice (for me) and that was never to remove queen cells.  Let the bees work it out.  I know there are different opinions on this, but bees seem good at making selections and fixing things if we let them. 

The downside might be that a swarmy hive will go with virgin queens, sometimes multiple virgin queens.  My feeling is that a swarmy hive is going to keep swarming no matter what I do. 

[The15thMember]

And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. 

Some years ago I got some very good advice (for me) and that was never to remove queen cells.  Let the bees work it out.  I know there are different opinions on this, but bees seem good at making selections and fixing things if we let them. 

The downside might be that a swarmy hive will go with virgin queens, sometimes multiple virgin queens.  My feeling is that a swarmy hive is going to keep swarming no matter what I do. 

I've heard that advice before, and while I don't personally abide by it (I leave two queen cells in a hive making a queen usually), I understand it has its benefits.  But in my case, I was combining a queenright swarm with a colony that had capped queen cells.  I had to destroy either the queen or the cells, otherwise the bees would have fought each other. 

[Ben Framed]

- "It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her." 

Yes, Possible

- "Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet." 

Another legitimate possibly.
What color is she? Is she a Carmel colored queen, or a tiger striped queen which blends in well with the workers? If the latter, she will be more easily looked over or missed.

- "I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to."     

Good idea Reagan. If the queen is not there, as you know, you will have Queen Cells soon. 
Your thoughts on this are sound in my opinion.

Phillip

[The15thMember]

What color is she? Is she a Carmel colored queen, or a tiger striped queen which blends in well with the workers? If the latter, she will be more easily looked over or missed.

She is a darker queen, although if she is the mated queen I suspect, she isn't typically difficult to spot.  She's very calm and generally doesn't run when I pull the frame she is on.  Ironically her name is Snow White, only because her mother's name was Ravenna (if someone gets that obscure reference, I'll be shocked).  Ravenna was the tamest queen I have ever had; I saw her lay eggs on the frame in my hands multiple times.  I have 5 queens that are descended from her.         

[Kathyp]

She was Italian?   

[The15thMember]

She was Italian?   

  Good guess, but no.  I actually have no idea if she was Italian, although she wasn't colored like an Italian.  She and her colony usurped one of my hives, so I don't know anything about her breeding or where she came from.  I was happy to have her though, she was a far better queen than the one her bees killed.  And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White??     

[Kathyp]

And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White

You name your queens so...IDK?  And this   

https://justonesuitcase.com/2014/02/21/snow-white-and-the-seven-dwarfs-in-italy/

[The15thMember]

And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White

You name your queens so...IDK?  And this   

https://justonesuitcase.com/2014/02/21/snow-white-and-the-seven-dwarfs-in-italy/

Fascinating.  It is not quite that obscure!    If you want another hint, her other daughter is named Freya.

[Occam]

Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly

[The15thMember]

Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly

DING-DING-DING!  WE HAVE A WINNER!!  You have just won . . . A NEW CAR!!! 

Bravo!  We had just watched that movie when one of my hives was usurped, so I decided to name the usurper queen after the evil queen, even though the movie wasn't that great.  But then it turned out she became my favorite queen, so the joke was on me!    Plus now I'm stuck with a line of queens named after Disney princesses, because where else could I go from Snow White!    Her other daughter Freya is named after Queen Ravenna's sister in the even worse sequel The Huntsman: Winter's War.   

[Occam]

Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly

DING-DING-DING!  WE HAVE A WINNER!!  You have just won . . . A NEW CAR!!! 

Bravo!  We had just watched that movie when one of my hives was usurped, so I decided to name the usurper queen after the evil queen, even though the movie wasn't that great.  But then it turned out she became my favorite queen, so the joke was on me!    Plus now I'm stuck with a line of queens named after Disney princesses, because where else could I go from Snow White!    Her other daughter Freya is named after Queen Ravenna's sister in the even worse sequel The Huntsman: Winter's War.

I didn't bother with the sequel  couldn't make myself watch it

[The15thMember]

I didn't bother with the sequel  couldn't make myself watch it

You didn't miss anything.  I have a little sister who is really into Chris Hemsworth, or I wouldn't have bothered with it either. 

[The15thMember]

Just to conclude this saga, I had another small swarm which I put on top of this hive, trying again to provide them with a queen faster than they can make one.  Yesterday I checked and the virgin in the top is now laying, which is great.  Then I checked the bottom and there was BIAS and not a single queen cell!    So I guess there was a mated queen in there after all and I somehow just missed her?!  Who knows.  Now I've got two queens instead of none.    I figure I'll just keep the one in the top as a spare until swarm season is over.  If I don't end up needing her, maybe I'll put her in her own hive, or just use her colony as a support hive. 

Thanks for all the help throughout this whole thing, everyone.  Never a dull moment! 

[Ben Framed]

Good Reagan, I was hoping that might be the case. Good for you. Thumbs UP!

Phillip