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Author Topic: Supersedure Question  (Read 2910 times)

Offline Dougman

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Supersedure Question
« on: August 23, 2018, 11:39:04 am »
When Supersedure  is taking place, does the current queen lay the egg in a prepared Queen Cell or is an already laid egg used or moved to the cell? I know that Emergency cells must use an Egg laid in a regular cell because the queen is either gone or unable to lay. Would be nice to have the process explained.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2018, 01:00:50 pm »
In swarming and supersedure, the future queen is started by an egg laid in a queen cup.  There is no definite proof that bees move eggs from one cell to another, it has not been observed or photographed.  Bees have been observed removing and eating eggs and this may account for reports of bees moving eggs to queen cells.

Emergency queens are started by using a larva in a worker cell, usually 24 to 48 hours from egg hatch but can be as much as 72 hours from hatch.  A 72 hours old larva will make a very poor queen and she is usually superseded quickly.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2018, 01:55:05 pm »
Hi AR, good morning to ya Buddy, Agreed.

Eggs are glued to the wax.  The shell of an egg is soft and easily punctured.  I would not think it possible for a bee to move an egg, as the egg shell is so thin, fragile and securely anchored.  Yes ants can easily move eggs due to the toughness of the shell and the ant eggs are free floating.

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 04:25:16 pm »
Your supercedure cells are normally in the middle of the frame. This is because the bees are using eggs laid in worker cells and floating the larvae to the edge so that they can build a vertical cell.
As mentioned, bees do not move eggs.
Jim
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Offline Dougman

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 07:34:18 pm »
Thanks Jim that's what I was guessing.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2018, 11:25:42 am »
In my experience I would say a supersedure cell could go either way.  Either purpose built queen cup and laid in by the queen, or an existing larvae floated out to the mouth of the cell, or if there is some new comb in the brood nest, they may tear down the cell wall and make a cell on an existing larvae.  Swarm cells are almost always purpose built cells.  Emergency cells are almost never purpose built cells.  But even emergency cells, I've seen a queen lay in cups and they they tear them down when they still have a queen.  They could just as easily leave one of those if the something happened to the queen...
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2018, 12:22:05 pm »
But even emergency cells, I've seen a queen lay in cups and they they tear them down when they still have a queen.
 
This sounds to me to be a contradiction.  If the queen still exist wouldn't the cell be a supercedure cell not an emergency cell?
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2018, 12:52:21 am »
When Supersedure  is taking place, does the current queen lay the egg in a prepared Queen Cell or is an already laid egg used or moved to the cell? I know that Emergency cells must use an Egg laid in a regular cell because the queen is either gone or unable to lay. Would be nice to have the process explained.

A little info from Honey Bee Biology by Dewy Caron

Geeze, I could not figure how to rotate it in tiny pics... any help???


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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 05:14:38 pm »
SC, thanks, I can read it.  According to Brother Adam 50%, fifty percent of queens introduced into hives are replaced.  I have to agree.  Some of my queens are Cordovan so it is easy to see if a queen was replaced.  Although I don?t see 50%, I have seen replacement of what I thought was a perfectly good Cordovan queen replaced by an Italian.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Supersedure Question
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2018, 11:27:09 pm »
SC, thanks, I can read it.  According to Brother Adam 50%, fifty percent of queens introduced into hives are replaced.  I have to agree.  Some of my queens are Cordovan so it is easy to see if a queen was replaced.  Although I don?t see 50%, I have seen replacement of what I thought was a perfectly good Cordovan queen replaced by an Italian.

This can/will happen if the keeper does not check back within a week, for every week, for the next four weeks.  What happens, my in my experience, is that the bees seem to start some queen cells immediately or had some on the go.  Even with a new mated queen there in the cage.  The new queen is accepted and starts laying.  Her first priority is to get laying and get her smell emanating. She is not looking for rivals.  If she comes across a cell she yes will destroy it, but she is not actively roaming the entire hive looking for them.  She is busy laying.  Any queen cells beyond the area she is working and laying will continue to develop.  By contrast when the virgin emerges her first priority is to eliminate rivals, she is preprogrammed to seek and destroy.  That new queen just laying for a week is promptly killed by the virgin. 

The message and advice when introducing a new queen is to check at 5 to 7 days, repeat.  It is the keeper who has  to seek and destroy the queen cells.  You may have to shake bees off all frames to find them all, as some can be small and really tucked in edges of combs.  After 3 weeks, there should be no more and bees should not have started any more.   It is clear and all safe and good from thereon.

This occurrence is not readily apparent in a nuc or a small hive as the pre-existing brood does not go beyond the area that the new queen is capable of working over within the timeline of a queen cell.  However in a larger colony that may have 4+ frames of brood when the new queen was introduced, it is a near certainty that she will not get to the extent of those frames before a cell emerges and what I described will occur.

I lost 8 excellent new queens this season because of this until I realized what was happening.  The saddest day was checking in on a new queen and finding her writhing in pain on the bottom board having just been stung by the virgin that was still clinging onto her.  That queen was a great queen, had laid up 5 full frames in a week.  She was fully accepted.  It was just a remote cell, undetected, that released a virgin and well there you have it.  Since changing from the -leave them alone for 2 weeks - to going to make direct assurance check and interventions at 5 day intervals, I have not lost one queen since.

Your experience may vary.  I am now set rather firmly is this belief though after loss of investment in time, money, and hive setbacks from losing perfectly good premium queens; and not having lost any since adopting the practice of checking sooner.  I cannot advocate the generally accepted practice of - leave them alone - , imho that results in more losses of good queens.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 01:45:29 am by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2018, 10:49:05 am »


Geeze, I could not figure how to rotate it in tiny pics... any help???


The reader can rotate their phone CCW take a pic and then read it from their phone.
Brian Cardinal
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2018, 07:20:48 pm »
Honeypump {I cannot advocate the generally accepted practice of - leave them alone - , imho that results in more losses of good queens.}

You have a good post that is well supported.  I like to leave a new queen alone as you mentioned, may be a mistake on my part, however, your post has me considering.  Next spring I may just employ your method of frequent queen checking.  I have all winter to consider; your post makes sense and your experience grants merit.

I have seen virgin queens that were easily frightened and I also realize it only takes one excited worker bee to injure a queen.  I appreciate your taking time to post your experiences, Honey pump.  I am a firm believer of: do what works best for you.  I startedvkeeping bees over a half century ago and I still have more questions than answers.......A lot more questions.

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2018, 09:30:43 pm »
One thing to keep in mind. There is a difference between dealing with a introduced queen and one that was raised by the bees that are in the hive. I do not think you need to keep a close watch on a queen raised by the bees as you would with an introduced into a hive.
Jim
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2018, 11:38:50 am »
One thing to keep in mind. There is a difference between dealing with a introduced queen and one that was raised by the bees that are in the hive. I do not think you need to keep a close watch on a queen raised by the bees as you would with an introduced into a hive.
Jim

Yes, agreed, absolutely. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 03:20:47 am by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2018, 03:52:41 am »
All Good information here.  Thanks for posting. Phillip Hall
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline paus

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2018, 11:42:32 am »
Jim please expound on this. What can you do by watching the hive closer?  I am ignorant on what I can or should do different ?

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Supersedure Question
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2018, 11:54:55 am »
Jim please expound on this. What can you do by watching the hive closer?  I am ignorant on what I can or should do different ?


Referring to post #10. 

The grounds for checking in at 5 day intervals for an introduced queen vs leaving them alone for two weeks.  Applies to an introduced queen.  Watching hive closer, means checking more frequently and intervening when necessary. To help along, to protect her from potential rivals emerging.

A queen raised by the hive will not have the problem presented in post #10, because as a virgin she would have already completely swept the hive of all rivals "before" taking any mating flights.  She will not fly until she's certain of complete elimination and annihilation of all rival sources.  She will not risk returning mated and having to take on a fight for her life in her new delicate condition.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:04:05 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2018, 02:02:26 pm »
Paus,
What The Honey Pump said.
😀
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2018, 05:22:38 pm »
Hey HoneyPump,
I am complaining about blackforest-winters. I see, there is worse. How can one live in such a climate=?
I`d much rather go for places like southern california or Costa Brava in Europe, if only circumstances were different. i`d even settle for florida if nothing less wet could be had...  :tongue:

So maybe in such a climate as You describe something like an upper entrance sounds good. So maybe in Scandinavia and Russia it is done, too`?
You must over-winter huge colonies in order to have something left n spring?
I have over-wintered (in the wine-climate!) on four Jumbos. Although it was two of these nucs sharing one box.
6 Jumbos is standard. In spring they explode. 5 can be done. I like 7.
But most people around I know go for something like two deeps. But they do give away a lot of potential, i think. One deep would be plenty.

By the way: I didn`t see any pictures. Where can I find them?

Just looked at the weatherforecast: up to 30 C in the warmer parts. That is unusual for mid-september.

Offline paus

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Re: Supersedure Question
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2018, 05:28:56 pm »
Thanks, "ya'll"