Setting up a drone congregation area

[Ben Framed]

Brought forward from   (Queenless hive, trying new approach)
Thank you Mr. HP for the detailed diagram and thought that you put into it. As you said each step is critical. My specific concern as stated In my post number 29 of topic, iQueenless hive, trying new approach, is setting up a proper circumstance in which l help assure my virgin queens have a better chance of mating. As I said I feel that I have been very fortunate in being as successful as I have this season, being I know of no other beekeeper within a two mile radios of my bees. And from what I have read and been told, a virgin will not mate with drones from the same  Apiary. Is this accurate?  Doesn't mean that there are no others bees or beekeeper in my area, but I know of none. So, having virgins coming back mated is a pleasantry that I am both puzzled and thankful. I hope to remedy this gap,  by next season by making a move in the right direction on this most important step. Setting up a drone conjuration area suitable for my needs.  This is where I can use specific help, guidance, and direction.
Thanks,
Phillip

[iddee]

Haven't followed this thread, Ben, but one point I will make. Queens will mate with any drones, even her brothers. The workers will remove eggs fertilized by her brothers, but she doesn't reject a drone that is capable of catching her in the air and getting the job done.

[Ben Framed]

Haven't followed this thread, Ben, but one point I will make. Queens will mate with any drones, even her brothers. The workers will remove eggs fertilized by her brothers, but she doesn't reject a drone that is capable of catching her in the air and getting the job done.

Thanks iddee, for the good information. That still leaves me with the same problem of a need to set up a drone conjuration area where she has better odds of mating with a non brother. 
Phillip

[BeeMaster2]

If there is a hive 3 to 5 miles from your Apiary, that is good for your queens. The drones travel up to a kilometer and the queens fly about 3 kilometers or more.
Jim Altmiller

[TheHoneyPump]

Steps 2 and 3 Ben
3 to 4 weeks before starting queens. Pick drone mothers, feed copiously, give green drone comb frames.  Flood the airways with the drones you want mating with the queens you have grafted.  Location matters not.  The DCA will form and queens will find it. 
Also, I totally agree with iddee above with what happens when there is not enough diversity in the DCA.
You reduce the inbreeding chances by picking the drone mothers and raising drones, long before starting queens.

[beesnweeds]

Ben how many queens are you planning on rearing?  If you plan on raising hundreds or thousands of queens to sell then you may need a separate apiary for drones.  I graft between 20 and 40 queens every year and never have a problem, other than the occasional no return from a mating flight.  If you're worried about inbreeding then use mini mating nucs.  After I charge a mini with a virgin queen and a cup of bees I can put it anywhere.  I used to drive out in the middle of nowhere and tuck a mini in a tree or on a stump and come back 2 weeks later to a laying queen. I love seeing the different color workers after a couple brood cycles.  I don't anymore because I couldn't be happier with what I have now, I just put the minis in my apiary. They are better than anything I have ever purchased.  I've had and still do get some the behaviors that the pros hate, like lots of propolis, runny on the comb, a little hot, etc.  But its made me that much better of a beekeeper and I found that even bees that are runny on the comb, etc., can fill 4 supers with no problem.
Like the old saying "There's more than one way to skin a cat". 

[Ben Framed]

Steps 2 and 3 Ben
3 to 4 weeks before starting queens. Pick drone mothers, feed copiously, give green drone comb frames.  Flood the airways with the drones you want mating with the queens you have grafted.  Location matters not.  The DCA will form and queens will find it. 
Also, I totally agree with iddee above with what happens when there is not enough diversity in the DCA.
You reduce the inbreeding chances by picking the drone mothers and raising drones, long before starting queens.

''Location matters not.'' Mr HP those are the magic words that I needed to hear!! I had flooded drones this year and all is well. I even fed the hives in which I wanted to keep producing drones so the supply of drones would not end in a dearth, but stay progressive. I will do the same next year as you suggested. I still have a lot of drones. My main concern was, " How are these queens coming back mated if there is no known bees within two miles, or four miles as far as I know, of me. Being the queen flies past 2 miles as I had read somewhere, to be mated leaving the home apiary drones behind. Perhaps I was confused, prehaps I misunderstood what I read, but happily I not confused any longer.   
Thanks all. 
Happy 
Phillip

Ben how many queens are you planning on rearing?   "There's more than one way to skin a cat". 

beesnweeds, I went into the winter and out with 7 nucs. Now I have 30 hives from splits, and this was after making several mistakes. I do not wish to raise thousands of queens, just enough to fill my needs. I used some minis, (two full frames). I also used some 5 frame nucs boxes for splits,  each with only a frame of mixed eggs, open brood, and capped brood surrounded by honey, and nurse bees, one frame of starter strip, per box no matter the size two or five frames.  I think I may be on the right track. Thank you for your input. Wishing you all continued success. 
Phillip 

[TheHoneyPump]

There are other bees within 2 miles. Yours.  Your other hives. You just need to ensure there is genetic diversity between the hives.  When you are picking the mothers, ensure different lineage between the breeders chosen for the years queens and the years drones.  Also good practice to add to the gene pool annually.  Do this by introducing/replacing xx % of the queens sourced from some other apiary.  (Van may be able to suggest what the optimum % number is?)

[Bee North]

This subject fascinates me.

A few facts that i have learnt recently that i hope some of you find interesting. New for me anyway...im sure not so much for others.

Firstly:

I live in North QLD Australia...its tropical.
In 2007 a swarm of Asian bee (Apis Cerana) decided to call Cairns home. They arrived by boat!

Its now 2019 and the local estimated population is about 50 000 colonies....The only Asian bee colony in Australia ,although others have tried.

This colony has been thoroughly researched (Sydney University) and we have been recently informed that this colony is one happy extended family all from the same original queens DNA!

Pretty impressive result.

They do have issues with the raising of diploid drones slowing their progress.

Diploid Drones as mentioned earlier, are the drones that get thrown out before maturity. Basically a worker bee gone very wrong due to inbreeding.

Result....patchy brood.

If you want a better explanation go here:
https:/www.honeybeesuite.com/what-they-didnt-teach-you-in-bee-school/

Sorry if the link doesnt work i havnt done one here before.

Secondly: The asian honey bee can mate with a European queen but without success....the eggs simply wont fertilise.

This got me worried regarding my girls missing a mating opportunity with a European drone. The more the better right!

However the bees have it sorted. What i was told by the same research team was that our clever bees both the European and the Asian dont want to mate with each others ladies either, so they have a mating window period.

They may mate at the same location on the same day but at different times ; aproximatly 40 minutes apart with the Asian bees mating early afternoon, and the European bees later on. They do have a small cross over period that hopefully sorts itself out over time....and apparently no. The European drones cant mate with the Asian queens. Its a physical thing i believe they said.

So bottom line is my queens should be fine even with these intruders being around. 

Clever aren't they?

[Ben Framed]

This subject fascinates me.

A few facts that i have learnt recently that i hope some of you find interesting. New for me anyway...im sure not so much for others.

Firstly:

I live in North QLD Australia...its tropical.
In 2007 a swarm of Asian bee (Apis Cerana) decided to call Cairns home. They arrived by boat!

Its now 2019 and the local estimated population is about 50 000 colonies....The only Asian bee colony in Australia ,although others have tried.

This colony has been thoroughly researched (Sydney University) and we have been recently informed that this colony is one happy extended family all from the same original queens DNA!

Pretty impressive result.

They do have issues with the raising of diploid drones slowing their progress.

Diploid Drones as mentioned earlier, are the drones that get thrown out before maturity. Basically a worker bee gone very wrong due to inbreeding.

Result....patchy brood.

If you want a better explanation go here:
https:/www.honeybeesuite.com/what-they-didnt-teach-you-in-bee-school/

Sorry if the link doesnt work i havnt done one here before.

Secondly: The asian honey bee can mate with a European queen but without success....the eggs simply wont fertilise.

This got me worried regarding my girls missing a mating opportunity with a European drone. The more the better right!

However the bees have it sorted. What i was told by the same research team was that our clever bees both the European and the Asian dont want to mate with each others ladies either, so they have a mating window period.

They may mate at the same location on the same day but at different times ; aproximatly 40 minutes apart with the Asian bees mating early afternoon, and the European bees later on. They do have a small cross over period that hopefully sorts itself out over time....and apparently no. The European drones cant mate with the Asian queens. Its a physical thing i believe they said.

So bottom line is my queens should be fine even with these intruders being around. 

Clever aren't they?

Yes they are! This is interesting thanks for posting.
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

There are other bees within 2 miles. Yours.  Your other hives. You just need to ensure there is genetic diversity between the hives.  When you are picking the mothers, ensure different lineage between the breeders chosen for the years queens and the years drones.  Also good practice to add to the gene pool annually.  Do this by introducing/replacing xx % of the queens sourced from some other apiary.  (Van may be able to suggest what the optimum % number is?)

Thanks HP

[CoolBees]

..., I went into the winter and out with 7 nucs. Now I have 30 hives from splits, and this was after making several mistakes. ...
Phillip

 

Phillip - I'm speachless now! Congrats man! Your not sitting around, are you? 30 hives from 7 ... that's awesome!!!

You don't need drones ... you need more boxes!!!

[FatherMichael]

..., I went into the winter and out with 7 nucs. Now I have 30 hives from splits, and this was after making several mistakes. ...
Phillip

 

Phillip - I'm speachless now! Congrats man! Your not sitting around, are you? 30 hives from 7 ... that's awesome!!!

You don't need drones ... you need more boxes!!!

That is amazing!

[Ben Framed]

Thanks friends, I really can't take credit. I would have not been able to accomplish this had it not been for Beemaster and good selfless advice freely given by the members here. There are other as well who have patiently helped me in answering my MANY questions on youtube, folks form all over the world, Canada, Australia, Germany, France, England, Guatemala, Guam, Turkey, Russia, and several other countries, nice folds form all over the world. There is a LONG list of kind helpful folks. To you here at Beemaster and those Youtube folks, I give the credit. And to The Good Lord for making it all possible through his gift to us, the bee.
Phillip

[Michael Bush]

>Setting up a drone congregation area

Only the drones can set up a drone congregation area...

>And from what I have read and been told, a virgin will not mate with drones from the same  Apiary. Is this accurate?

The biology of the honey bee is such that the odds are stacked against it, but she will mate with whatever drones she finds.  Since Drones fly lower and closer and the queen tends to fly higher and farther, USUALLY she mates with other genetics than her apiary because that's what she finds.  If there are few drones in the area and the only DCA she finds is closer, then drones from her apiary are probably there and she will mate with them.