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Author Topic: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions  (Read 7044 times)

Offline rockink

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2018, 10:00:08 pm »
I have 3 hives hive left is the weak docile hive. Hive middle I split and to make hive right. 

That makes a lot of sense. I seriously doubt I will find the queen. These bees are bat s@#$ crazy and there are so many bees in the 2 hives. I will give it a try but i just don't know if I the nerve to hang in there long enough to get anything productive done.

I guess if nothing else i bathe the two mean hives with soapy water and hope my 1 weak hive makes it.


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Offline Dustymunky

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2018, 10:04:55 pm »
Just a side note. If the hive is under attack by robbers or pests (skunks, yellow jackets....) they will be more defensive. Not saying that is whats happening but its something to be aware of.

Offline rockink

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2018, 10:11:47 pm »
Just a side note. If the hive is under attack by robbers or pests (skunks, yellow jackets....) they will be more defensive. Not saying that is whats happening but its something to be aware of.
I have heard this as well. I don't think this is the case. I will be setting up a game camera next week as well just to be safe.

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Offline iddee

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2018, 10:16:15 pm »
I think you need to re-read reply #8. I have requeened many aggressive hives by just pinching the queen and walking away. The emergency queen that was raised was just fine.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cao

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2018, 01:02:39 am »
I think soapy water would be the very last thing.  I do agree with what beepro said about divide and conquer but that's all.  I agree with iddee with the rest.  My mean hive was split several times until the bee numbers got down to a manageable amount.  I think that is the first priorty.  Some of the splits ended up queenless, some made new queen cells an one had the original queen.  Since you have the eqiupment, I would split them several more times.  I wouldn't worry about if they had brood or not.  You said you have one deep and one medium for each split now.  I would split them again, and again, if necessary.  I would have 2 bottom boards with empty deep boxes ready.  Remove the medium super an set aside.  Pull five frames from the deep and put in new hive.  Then add a super and add five frames from original super.  The rest empty frames.  Repeat with the second hive.  If you find queen cells and can divide them that would be great.  If not, you can add a frame of eggs later.  Check on them in a week for queen cells and such.  If by chance you find the queen, you could pinch her like iddee said if you wish.  In my case I didn't.  Just the reduction of number of bees calmed them down enough for me. 

Offline rockink

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2018, 01:15:14 am »
So your saying take 5 deep frames from existing hive and put in new hive and then put a super back on both. So now both hives have 5 deep drawn frames and 5 empty frames. Then repeat and do the same thing with the other hive?

I understand what your saying about the queen cells and will split accordingly shod i have the chance.

Thanks,
Rockin K

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Offline cao

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2018, 01:22:06 am »
Yes.  Adding the super on each is dependent on how many bees are there.  Basically splitting your two splits into 4.  That spreads out the bees so when you inspect them you can see what you are doing. 

Offline little john

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2018, 03:32:28 am »
Ace, what you don't seem to understand is, meaness is normally carried by drones. A mean hive may have a genetically docile queen laying eggs from mean drones. Her offspring queens may mate with docile drones and be very gentle.

At least, that's the theory ... (which appears to have substance to it). 

But it's worth bearing in mind that the 'meanness' isn't down to the drones themselves - it's that they are carrying the DNA of the queen heading a mean (or potentially mean) colony somewhere within distance.  That characteristic is coming from her - via her drones.

The commonly-heard concept of 'the local drones' (as if they are something over and above beekeeper-managed colonies) is something we should be treating with scepticism - imo.
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2018, 04:29:30 am »
I seriously doubt I will find the queen. These bees are bat s@#$ crazy and there are so many bees in the 2 hives. I will give it a try but i just don't know if I the nerve to hang in there long enough to get anything productive done.

I guess if nothing else i bathe the two mean hives with soapy water and hope my 1 weak hive makes it.

That is THE problem - lots of good ideas being expressed - but exactly HOW do you achieve access in order to deploy them ?  However, there's no need to resort to using soapy water - ever - as there's another 'solution' (pun intentional) which can be used.

One of the persistent myths perpetuated in beekeeping is that when a hive is smoked, bees will load-up with honey and thus become less aggressive.  So - try smoking (even heavily), then lift the lid off quickly.  Do you see bees rushing off to their stores combs in order to gorge themselves with honey ?  No chance - they keep carrying on just as before - either that, or they become irritated and start focusing upon the beekeeper instead.  It's just one of those myths which keeps 'doing the rounds'.

However, there IS a way of achieving this - it's called 'Drumming the Hive'.  Historically, this expression has had two uses: the first refers to beating on hives (usually skeps) in order to move bees from one hive into another.  In this case it was often called 'Driving the Bees'.
In it's second sense, 'Drumming the Hive' was a technique employed by early beekeepers, but which has fallen out of fashion - I can't remember reading about this in any modern beekeeping book.

The technique involves smoking through the entrance of an aggressive hive very heavily, then 'drumming' the box - meaning hitting or slapping it - whatever takes your fancy.  Then smoke heavily again, then 'drum' again - keeping that sequence going for at least 5 minutes, even 10 if you can manage it. (which seems a very long time when doing this)
 
Inside the hive the bees will think that Armageddon has arrived: the End of the World - or at least the end of the world as far as this particular hive is concerned - and so WILL load-up with honey, ready for an instant evacuation.  Perhaps this is where the original myth of "smoke equals loading-up with honey" originated ?

Anyway - the technique works, and works well - and will grant you a brief time-window of 20 minutes or so, which gives enough time to separate boxes and thus begin the process of weakening the colony in order to find it's queen.
'Drumming the Hive' is probably best seen as being a last resort - when you can't even open a hive to begin dealing with a problem without being mobbed.

Once a multi-box hive is split and separated by (say) 10 feet - it should become obvious which box contains the queen, and so that box can then be further sub-divided the next day.  Best not to hang around too close or for too long after drumming, as when the bees realise they've been tricked, they become particularly cranky.

I've only ever needed to do the above 2 or 3 times in my life, but on each occasion it worked extremely well - and was seen at the time as being 'a life-saver'.
LJ
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Offline moebees

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2018, 10:47:32 am »
I had a really bad hive last year.  It was 4 boxes high because I use only 6 frame boxes.  What I did was made a new hive out of each box.  All the field bees returned to the original spot.  So I had 3 boxes with mostly young bees to work with.  I came back a few (4 I think) days later and the hive with young larva would be the one with the queen.  Based on an educated guess the first box I opened had the queen and found her on the second frame I looked at.   Then recombined the boxes and re-queened with a purchased queen.  Problem solved.

With a smaller hive you can move the entire hive and put a dummy in the original location to collect the field bees.  Then you can look for the queen in without the aggravation.


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Offline yes2matt

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2018, 12:17:41 pm »



Cao - we actually split in to 1 deep and 1 medium super for each and they both appear to have outgrown them immediately.


If I had bees that would do that I'd keep them in a back yard away from the mowers, super them up and let em rip. I'd put up with getting stung all to hell a few times a summer for all the honey and drawn comb they'd make.

Don't tell nobody that I said thon they'll get mad.

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Offline rockink

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2018, 10:28:05 pm »
Thanks everyone for the help!

To make it easier my hives are L2 & L3.. my 2 new ones will be L4 & L5

Today I was able to get 2 complete hives together, to split my two hot hives tomorrow. I should have 1 queenright(L2) and another with queen cells(L3).

My plan is 1st to see if i have Queen Cells. If i do i will try to split them between the 3 hives. (L3,L4,L5).

If queen cells are not on multiple frames than i will make sure my new hives have a good mixture of eggs, larva, capped brood, pollen, nectar and honey.

If my queen cell hive only has 1 frame of qc's than i probably shouldn't split it right? Or would it be okay to grab 2 frames from L2 of eggs from the queen right hive and then just shake nurse bees?

I would shake bees from L2 to L4 and L3 to L5.. Making sure i don't mix them.


Thanks,
Rockin' K


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Offline cao

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2018, 11:33:50 pm »
If my queen cell hive only has 1 frame of qc's than i probably shouldn't split it right?
That would depend of how mean they are.  If they are calm enough for you then leave them be.  If not then I would split them.  To me the goal is to get them to a manageable state.

I make splits as small as two deep frames or 3 medium frames if I have a capped queen cell.  I usually don't shake extra bees unless there aren't many on the frames and its going to be cold.  If I'm making a split with eggs then I do because they need to make and feed the queen cell.  If I need to grab frames from more than one hive I will smoke them a bit to cover the scent a little and chase off a few foragers(nurse bees will stay on the frame).  I have been guilty of mixing and matching frames to make splits on more than on occasion.

Hope everything goes well.

Offline beepro

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2018, 03:22:16 am »
I take every opportunity I can to do my little bee experiment over the years.   Because my aim is to keep all gentle
bees in my local area sending these docile drones to the DCAs every season, I cannot take any chances.   The experience from last
summer in dealing with a mean hive that multiply like crazy gave me a valuable lesson.   Her daughter mated with the local carnis drones also
produce these sensitive bees.   They are able to defend against the carpenter ants there.   But I will certainly not keep this type of bees
around my home yard.   So yes, in the absent of the aggressive drones, her daughter mated with the local gentle drones will produce calmer bees.  It all
depends on what type of drones you have at the local DCAs.   And every beekeeper's yard is different with the drones they have.   

Keep track of these daughters after they are mated.   Mark each hive or queen to track them over time if you have to.    When these hives are
big and strong, let us know if they are gentle, half-gentle, or fully aggressive hives.   I still blame it on the aggressive local drones should you live in the
AHB country.   Every beekeeper's situation is different!

Offline rockink

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2018, 12:53:41 am »
Update on my hives.

Tonight my bees were totally different and not the big a-holes they have been. I'm glad i had my gear on but wasn't so intimidated! I'm not sure what was different. We didn't start until 6pm!?!?

L1 - Not weak - Not Strong - just perfect and queenright.

L2 - Is extremely strong! After checking all of the top frames my mentor spotted the queen in the upper super! We put her in a cage and did a reverse split. Which after moving frames in to a another deep we created L4 and released the queen there.

L3 - Was created when we split L2 a few weeks back on May 24th. Only one queen cell was spotted. A few queen cups. Just in case we added another frame of eggs/larva. Should have a queen soon.

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Offline cao

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2018, 01:00:50 am »
I have found that sometimes just splitting a mean hive can calm them down.  It's like putting the big bully in his place.  Glad it is working out.

Offline iddee

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2018, 07:28:45 am »
Glad to hear the good news.As I have said before, there's no need to spend a lot of money to enjoy beekeeping.A little patience and common sense goes a long ways.

Congrats.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2018, 07:50:30 am »
Glad your bees have calmed down. What was different?  Did you wash your gloves or use different ones?
Jim
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Offline rockink

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2018, 10:12:29 am »
Thanks everyone for the advice.

Jim, I washed everything.. Gloves, suit, veil.. So maybe that was it. However when the suit was new I still got attacked.

That brings up another question how often should a person wash their suit? I wasn't mobbed last night but I know my gloves and suit were stung several times?

Lastly, seeing the queen for the first time was a really cool moment for me.

Offline beepro

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Re: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2018, 09:43:57 pm »
Glad that you did not squish this queen.  She's a fine specimen!   Keep her for a backup just in
case the other splits cannot produce a mated queen.   In a small nuc hive they will not be mean as there are hardly that
many bees to keep the hive going.  Issuing the guard bees is out of the question!   

 

anything