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Author Topic: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.  (Read 2652 times)

Online Lesgold

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Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« on: October 13, 2022, 09:03:55 pm »
Hi Folks,

Just thought I?d start a conversation on the differences between organic, raw and processed honey. They are terms that are often used and have slightly different meanings depending on where you come from. Let me start by saying that this should be a positive discussion where ideas and viewpoints are respected. I am sure that most members would classify themselves or feel comfortable in one of these areas due to their own situation or beliefs. As long as we keep that in mind, it could be an interesting area of learning.

The reason I raised the topic was due to a conversation I had two days ago with a former work colleague. This person has bought my honey for quite a few years and her young family love it. Last week she used up her supply and had to purchase some from the supermarket. The kids took one bite of the toast she made them for breakfast and refused to eat any more. I just explained that all honeys are different and her kids have developed a preference for the style of honey that my bees produce.

This got me thinking about the situation in my country in relation to the sale of honey. I would like to speak on each area briefly and would hope that you guys can correct me where I get it wrong or add to the conversation by informing us all as to your own local interpretations, standards or opinions.

First of all is the commercial setting where large companies process and package big quantities of honey for the supermarket trade. In this setting, honey from a variety of sources is often blended together so that a consistent colour and flavour profile is produced. I can understand the logic of this as many customers would expect that the honey they buy from a company this week will be the same as what they purchase in a months time. It?s a bit like buying a hamburger from a large takeaway franchise. Buy a burger today from a store and then travel a thousand miles to buy a burger that tastes exactly the same.  Much of the commercially processed honey has been pasteurised by heating to kill any wild yeasts and to ensure moisture content is at a safe level for packaging. The heating of the honey also allows for fine filtering to remove pollen, wax and any other debris. The resulting honey is also less prone to crystallisation than unprocessed honeys. We have had issues in the past where some companies had been adding imported honeys and/ or fillers to bulk out their products. The general public we?re not overly happy when they heard about this and hopefully this issue has been rectified. It has often been said that processed honeys that have been heated, lack the nutritional qualities of raw honeys but I don?t have enough knowledge in this area to comment. Some of you may be able to expand on that idea.

I personally produce raw, unprocessed honey in my setting. All of my honey is cold extracted and run through two sieves before being stored in food grade containers. I don?t use chemicals in the hive and never feed the bees any sugar water or supplements. My bees are never moved and rely totally on what the season brings. The big disadvantage to this method is that every season is different and in my area, the flowering cycle for trees is always longer than one year. A tree that produces exceptional honey both in quality and quantity, may only flower every three years.  In some years, there may not be any major flows at all and I may end up with an average of about 45 pounds of honey per hive. A few years ago I didn?t take any honey from the bees for a couple of seasons due to drought and bushfires.  That, thankfully is not a regular occurrence. The honey that the bees produce is therefore variable in flavour due to the variety of nectar sources. Most of my honey crystalises in the cool weather and needs to be slowly warmed before bottling. It?s just my preferred method and suits my situation. I am lucky to have that choice.  Many beekeepers don?t have a choice due to their location or the pests and diseases they have to deal with.

To be certified as an organic beekeeper, there are many hoops that you have to jump through. I looked into it a few years ago and found that it would be very expensive to transition into and my location would not allow the certification to take place. Every country has its own strict requirements and I?m sure that members would be interested in hearing about some of them. Even though I?m surrounded by natural forest, I?m situated too close to civilisation for certification to be considered. Chemical use, hive materials, timber finishes, bee feeding, extracting processes, honey storage materials and methods etc, etc etc. The list just goes on and on. I think as beekeepers, we would love to be able to market our product as being organic but the reality is that only a small group who are determined, keen for the extra work and have the location that fulfils the criteria will be able to achieve it. We would love to hear from some of you who have been down this path. Tell us about your experiences along the way.

Please add your thoughts and tell us of your own experiences. If anything that I have written is not quite correct, please comment there as well.

Cheers

Les

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2022, 09:31:11 pm »
I have always wondered about those who claim to have organic honey.  You can't control where the bees go so you'd almost have to live on an island alone to guarantee that you have organic honey.  The raw unprocessed bit is easy.  You only have to decide your customers tolerance for legs and wings.

As a side note, I have a bunch of friends who are commercial farmers of one kind or another, and they kind of laugh at the whole organic thing.  It's a great way to make extra money, but very hard to verify especially since so much of our produce is imported.  + most grocery store shoppers don't like finding bugs in their food   :grin:
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Jim134

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2022, 09:44:10 pm »
It would be very difficult to prove.. Or disprove. The original topic.. Anywhere in North America.


          BEE  HAPPY  Jim134  😊

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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2022, 09:58:11 pm »
Our state has a great program called "Certified Naturally Grown", which is basically one step below organic certification, which is for many small local growers and food producers, including almost all beekeepers, too difficult a standard to reach.  What's so great about it is that as a consumer, you can feel confident that products that are certified naturally grown are coming from people following best management practices, and as a producer, you can market your products in a way similar to organic but without all the hoops to jump through.  Here are the apiary requirements for anyone curious about the details.  https://www.cngfarming.org/apiary_standards
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Online Lesgold

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2022, 10:03:55 pm »
Quite a few people advertise their honey as being organic but not many actually have the certification. In my country, hives have to be situated a minimum of 5km or three miles from any agricultural pursuit that uses chemicals. This means that hives would have to be located in very remote locations or in forests well away from human impact. I?m sure that the value of honey would be increase for people with that certification but the extra paperwork involved would be a nightmare.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2022, 10:36:26 pm »
In my opinion I would think a certified 'truely organic' honey would sell for a premium price in a certified organic health food store or setting. Folks of means who put much value in organic foods do not mind paying for what they get..

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Online Lesgold

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2022, 11:17:37 pm »
That was an interesting read Reagan. There is some pretty high standards in those requirements but most would be achievable with good beekeeping practice. As you said, the consumer would gain confidence from those standards.

Offline max2

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2022, 05:08:11 am »
Our process is pretty much as les describes.

We have been doing it this way for 46 years and don't make too many changes.

Like Les, we are lucky to being surrounded by bush.
There is no commercial horticulture in our valley.
The honey changes all the time and it is never the same again. We have a very loyal following and the honey sells well at a fair price.

I only shift hives when i have to - eg when i make nuc's.

I follow the "Canadian Beekeeper" - I wonder what honey off canola tastes like?

Offline Acebird

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2022, 08:49:06 am »
Organic and commercial are at opposite ends of the spectrum.  What commercial beekeeper is going to feed their bees organic sugar?
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2022, 05:19:08 pm »
Max2,  Canola honey has about as much flavour as Barley sugar lollies. in other words , not much.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2022, 11:35:41 am »
Organic and commercial are at opposite ends of the spectrum.  What commercial beekeeper is going to feed their bees organic sugar?

Will feeding sugar to a hive, disqualify the beekeepers honey from being certified as 'organic' even if 'organic sugar' was used (even if there is such a thing as 'organic sugar')? lol 😁
To be clear, Im not speaking of adulterated honey, I am speaking of use strictly in the off season of Winter.
 
Les says he don't feed his hives sugar, and he still would not qualify for certification in his 'location'.  Quoting Les: "I don't use chemicals in the hive and never feed the bees 'any' sugar water or supplements. My bees are never moved and rely totally on what the season brings."

Phillip
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2022, 04:29:19 pm »
Organic certification in Australia requires natural vegetation for a 5km radius around your site. No houses, no paddocks.

Offline Jim134

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2022, 10:10:46 pm »
Organic certification in Australia requires natural vegetation for a 5km radius around your site. No houses, no paddocks.

      This requirement does not sound like .....it will be too  Difficult if you live in certain parts of Australia...


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Online Lesgold

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2022, 10:35:30 pm »
It would be achievable if you were surrounded by National parks or native forests but many would struggle to achieve this requirement. Commercially produced foundation can not be used in the hives. Foundation would also need to be produced from hives that are free of chemical contamination. Timber finishes and equipment requirements are also governed by strict guidelines. If certification is to take place, there is a twelve month waiting period to allow for new, clean wax to be introduced into hives.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2022, 08:19:11 am »
I am speaking of use strictly in the off season of Winter.[/i]
 
If you feed your bees it is nearly impossible to not have traces in the honey.  Not enough to consider the honey adulterated but it is there.  Just like it is impossible to know if the honey has traces of honey due.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2022, 10:19:49 am »
The USDA who seems to think they own the term "Organic" here in the US, has no organic standard for honey.  But due to trade agreements marks honey from other countries in South America as "Organic" if their government standards are met.  So the only honey in the US labeled as USDA Organic seems to be from Brazil.

As far as "Raw" there is, unfortunately, no standard set as to the temperature you can heat honey to and still call it raw.  So it is virtually meaningless unless you know your honey producer and have had a conversation on the topic.

As to CNG their requirements are ridiculous.  If I elevate my hives they blow over.  There is no reason I need to elevate them.  Certainly nothing that effects the quality or naturalness of the honey.  It is simply their personal opinion. 

What good are things that are "strongly discouraged, but allowed."?  There are a lot of these in their requirements.

I notice they finally allowed plastic in the hive, which they didn't before.  But it's "discouraged".  Why are they concerned with my ventilation?  It's my job to manage that with production in mind and if I do that it will take care of itself.  Besides, bees manage the ventilation of the hive.  People often create too much ventilation and make the bees work much harder than they would otherwise.  Who is the expert on ventilation to judge my choices?

They require you to rotate out old comb.  I never do and never intend to.  I put no chemicals in my hive and the ones the farmers use now break down pretty quickly.

I'm not in a AHB area, but people who are usually are better off keeping local bees than risking the viciousness of F1 hybrid bees by bringing in EHB queens all the time.  Certainly mean bees should not be tolerated, but if you have nice AHB you have a wonderful thing.

What business is it of theirs if you want to clip a queens wings?  Once she's mated it's irrelevant.

Who gets to decide if I'm harvesting pollen or propolis from a "weak or struggling hive"?  And what beekeeper would?

I wouldn't have anything to do with CNG...  Virtually everything they require is either common sense, irrelevant or a bad idea.  The common sense takes care of itself.  The irrelevant is just creating useless rules.  The bad ideas are actually setting back beekeeping...






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Online Lesgold

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2022, 04:30:51 pm »
Politics and beekeeping. What a lovely mix. I didn?t know whether to laugh or sigh when I read your post. It?s a pity that even our pursuit of excellence is impacted by others who know what?s best for the humble beekeeper.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2022, 07:31:50 am »
Well the good part is everyone has to follow the same rules whether they are ridiculous or not.  Without certification what you have is the possibility of a snake oil salesman.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2022, 07:36:10 am »
>Well the good part is everyone has to follow the same rules whether they are ridiculous or not.

But what difference does it make when they are ridiculous?  The entire thing might be somewhat useful if they just said you can't put these chemicals in the hive and you are allowed to use these and leave the rest of it alone.  Why tell people how high they have to be and what ventilation to use etc. etc. etc.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2022, 07:46:34 am »
Why tell people how high they have to be and what ventilation to use etc. etc. etc.
I can tell you that there are many regulations in the FDA that don't make sense.  That being said I would prefer not to be without its regulations.
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2022, 08:46:39 am »
Why tell people how high they have to be and what ventilation to use etc. etc. etc.
I can tell you that there are many regulations in the FDA that don't make sense.  That being said I would prefer not to be without its regulations.


     I wonder if there are any FDA regulations in Australia ?

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2022, 09:31:04 am »
> That being said I would prefer not to be without its regulations.

Before the FDA the individual states had their own food and drug laws.  Many states regulated their food through the Dept. of Agriculture. I have no use for the FDA.  The State Ag Dept or the State Health Dept can take care of such things.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2022, 08:33:50 am »
The State Ag Dept or the State Health Dept can take care of such things.
If you are a state that grows corn you are not going to do anything that would affect those revenues.  No different then OSHA being state controlled.  You want drugs to be controlled by each state?  That will go well.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2022, 01:54:43 pm »
Several states are already ignoring the rules by the FDA and the DEA and while it is confusing to the citizens, it is not going that badly.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2022, 02:21:13 pm »
Why tell people how high they have to be and what ventilation to use etc. etc. etc.
I can tell you that there are many regulations in the FDA that don't make sense.  That being said I would prefer not to be without its regulations.
> That being said I would prefer not to be without its regulations.

Before the FDA the individual states had their own food and drug laws.  Many states regulated their food through the Dept. of Agriculture. I have no use for the FDA.  The State Ag Dept or the State Health Dept can take care of such things.

The State Ag Dept or the State Health Dept can take care of such things.
If you are a state that grows corn you are not going to do anything that would affect those revenues.  No different then OSHA being state controlled.  You want drugs to be controlled by each state?  That will go well.
Several states are already ignoring the rules by the FDA and the DEA and while it is confusing to the citizens, it is not going that badly.

Let's try and keep this discussion on topic, please.  Discussing the FDA regulations as they relate to organic farming or beekeeping is relevant, but if you guys want to discuss the FDA as a whole, please move it to the Coffee House. 
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Online Lesgold

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Re: Organic/ Raw/ Processed Honey.
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2022, 06:51:04 pm »
Jim, the answer to your question is yes. Here in Australia we have regulations for just about every aspect of life. When it comes to honey, requirements would closely reflect those that you guys experience. Since the outbreak of Varroa in Australia, there has been an increase on the focus of bio security, beekeeping standards and regulations.