Aggressive and angry bees

[AustinB]

After reading the 15th Members post about Hot Hive Heading into Winter, I thought I'd made a post where others can share their experience with hot hives, and what the outcome was. Obviously 'aggressive' bees is a relative term, which will add to the dynamics of the experiences. As far as bad bee behavior I'm going to do some reading up on it. I'm interested to see if there is mostly genetics behind it, or if it is primarily empirical. Note this is exclusive of AHB, though AHB genetics likely play a role.
A couple experiences that stand out to me from my colonies:

1. I have a colony that was a swarm I collected in early spring 2021. They didn't do much to build themselves up in spring/summer of 2021, and (I thought) barely had enough resources to overwinter. But overwinter they did and this year they built up beautifully and filled 4 supers of honey for me, along with 2 that I left on them for winter. That colony is now big and super heavy and it chock full of bees. Every time I work them for the past 2 seasons, they are surprisingly docile. Not runny, never buzzing my hands or veil etc. I work them with shorts and no gloves regularly. This year during the summer they got extremely defensive, and issued me countless stings while working them with full gear. That lasted about 6 weeks. Still had a flow on at that time, and they had plenty of resources. Could have been a skunk bothering them maybe, but I had no indication of that. They are back to calm now like they have always been.

2. I acquired a hive that the owner was getting rid of because they were so aggressive and had chased and stung multiple people. They were mean, at least after I disrupted them they were. Big healthy colony, full of honey and resources and a ton of bees. I relocated them to my apiary in the middle of the flow. They were so mad after I set them up that they flew 150 yards from the backside of my house to the frontside just to sting my wife  (true story, and boy did she love me for it). 3 to 4 weeks later, they had calmed down to the point I was working them with shorts and no gloves. Since then, they have been quite calm with only a few here and there that get really upset with me.
So when I hear 'mean hive,' I wonder; is it all genetics, or other factors that are influencing the change in behavior.

[TheHoneyPump]

Aggression/defensiveness follows paternity .. comes from the genetics of the drones.

https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article/96/4/376/2187678?login=false

Cases of a calm hive gone mean and then gone calm, over 5 week intervals may simply be when the queen was going through a batch of sperm from a mean drone then got back to using sperm from nice drones. 
Environmental conditions definitely affect whether a hive is in a good mood or is cranky.  But there is a big difference between being moody and being outright madly mean.  We can put up with and work around bad moods.  We cannot tolerate meanies.

[Michael Bush]

I had some Buckfasts from Texas back in the early 2000s that swarmed in the middle of a drought and turned vicious.  They would wait at the door of my house, a good 150 yards from the hives on the far side of the house and sting me as soon as I walked out the door.  If you walked up to the hive from the back, they would pour out after you.  If you opened them, you couldn't see out of your veil.  I eventually got them all requeened using this technique:
https://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

[Bill Murray]

The meanest hive i ever had was about 20 to 30 foot from my grill. They got so bad you couldnt even go out and check the burgers, let alone the hive. but my My kids finally refused to come over and cook out anymore, and my wife had just given up. so had to kill the queen and replace. After that whole episode I dont even hesitate. They get 3 chances. on strike 3 shes out.

[Michael Bush]

Yes.  I use a red pin.  Whenever they are hotter than I think they have any right to be under the circumstances, I put a red pin in.  If they are nice, I take a red pin out.  If I get to three pins, I requeen.

[TheHoneyPump]

I had some Buckfasts from Texas back in the early 2000s that swarmed in the middle of a drought and turned vicious.  They would wait at the door of my house, a good 150 yards from the hives on the far side of the house and sting me as soon as I walked out the door.  If you walked up to the hive from the back, they would pour out after you.  If you opened them, you couldn't see out of your veil.  I eventually got them all requeened using this technique:
https://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

Not sure which one it is in, but in reading through Bro Adams books awhile ago;  Breeding the Honey Bee and/or In Search of the best strains of bees .. The tendency of buckfast hybrids (daughters of buckfast queens) to get very aggressive is mentioned. There is alot in those references about characteristics of different strains of bees he gathered and what happened when crossed, back crossed, cross crossed, criss crossed, etc.  Some sections are tough to follow without a notepad in the other hand.  But I do remember that BFx mention somewhere in there.  Hence, although I do buy BF from time to time I try to avoid grafting off of them or allowing supercedures in them.

GREAT article:  https://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

.

[Michael Bush]

Any F1 hybrid cross in bees tends to bring out aggression.  But I had Buckfasts for decades with no issues on requeening with open mated Buckfast daughters.

[Oldbeavo]

Austin B
Do you mark your queens?
Hives change queens more often than you know without marking.
Sometimes the change in temperament can be a change of queens and the new queen mating with more aggressive drones.
So the aggressive hive that became quiet may have changed queens and you are the beneficiary of a new queen.

[AustinB]

https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article/96/4/376/2187678?login=false

Cases of a calm hive gone mean and then gone calm, over 5 week intervals may simply be when the queen was going through a batch of sperm from a mean drone then got back to using sperm from nice drones. 
Environmental conditions definitely affect whether a hive is in a good mood or is cranky.  But there is a big difference between being moody and being outright madly mean.  We can put up with and work around bad moods.  We cannot tolerate meanies.

I found that article while searching. Good stuff, thanks for posting.
If the colony went mean for a period due to a 'batch' of sperm from a mean drone, I assume the opposite would generate the same effect. Wherein an aggressive colony could temporarily cool off depending on the genetics of the sperm used for a period of time. Since the total supply of sperm is all contained in the spermatheca, I assume its all mixed together and the queen doesn't have the ability to select particular genes? Maybe she does, I don't know. If she doesn't have that ability, I assume the aggression would fall somewhere within a range of possible aggression, based on the prevalence of the 'mean' genes collected during her mating.

Austin B
Do you mark your queens?

Yes I mark all of my queens. None of the colonies in my example ever requeened.

Any F1 hybrid cross in bees tends to bring out aggression.  But I had Buckfasts for decades with no issues on requeening with open mated Buckfast daughters.

Michael, how did you like the Buckfast and do you currently have them? I am thinking of adding Buckfast genes to my apiary next year.

[Michael Bush]

>Michael, how did you like the Buckfast and do you currently have them? I am thinking of adding Buckfast genes to my apiary next year.

From 1974 until 2001 I loved the Buckfasts.  They were moderately frugal, which worked well in my climate (very cold winters).  Because the cluster was big enough to winter well without being too big and spendthrift like the Italians.  They were gentle most of the time and productive.  After having them go vicious, I have never tried them again.

[AustinB]

From 1974 until 2001 I loved the Buckfasts.  They were moderately frugal, which worked well in my climate (very cold winters).  Because the cluster was big enough to winter well without being too big and spendthrift like the Italians.  They were gentle most of the time and productive.  After having them go vicious, I have never tried them again.

Interesting. Was it a single or multiple colonies that went vicious?

[Michael Bush]

Four colonies simultaneously.

[NigelP]

Interesting,
All I keep are Buckfast/Buckfast F1's and some F2's.
They do go bad, not because they are Buckfast but because of the local genes they inherit as they get mated to the local population of bees. In my area the local bees are quite vicious and not worth keeping. So I buy Island mated Buckfast where the queens are definitely Buckfast crossed with  Buckfast. For sake of argument I call these F0, so these queens are pure Buckfast full of Buckfast sperm,. I use these as my breeder queens.
These are amazing gentle bees and awesome honey producers.
The next generation (F1) the queens cannot be anything else but pure Buckfast, but due to the random mating's with local population of mongrels all her offspring are 50% Buckfast and 50% mongrel. However, these  F1's,  like her mother are very calm productive bees, nearly all the time (95%+). As always with bees there are exceptions and rarely any absolutes.  It's often these f1 open mated crosses that are sold as "Buckfast" bees to the unsuspecting buyer. And it's the next generation where the fun starts as the Buckfast genes  get diluted even further, they are now to all intent and purpose mongrel bees (about 75% of their gene pool). This where I pick and choose which ones to keep depending on temperament..and the next generation after that.we do not want to go there as to all intents and purposes these are now back to local mongrels.

[Michael Bush]

I had no issues with the Buckfasts raising their own open mated queens.  The vicious ones were queens were from Texas and I'm sure they were crossed with AHB.  That was a unique experience after 27 years of good luck with Buckfasts.

[Oldbeavo]

Where queens mate is very relative to the temperament of the offspring.
It is an issue as migratory sites can have some local mongrels that can leave some angry bees.
Michael, i agree, 3 fizzy's is a requeen and some times 2 fizzy's will get a requeen is we have surplus