Hot Hive Heading into Winter

[The15thMember]

Some of you may remember that nasty hive I posted about a little while ago, the one I was working when I hurt my back.  I've let them sit undisturbed for several weeks, and yesterday I worked the hive next to them, just to sort of see what kind of a mood they'd be in with a little bit of disruption.  It wasn't terrible, but I did have a few bees from the nasty hive bumping me and trying to get at my wrists.  Then after I was done and went back in the house, my little sisters were tossing a softball in the driveway, and they got chased by several bees, and my youngest sister was stung on the eyebrow.  This is now the second time something like this has happened, so I've obviously got to do something about this hive.  It's too late to requeen without buying a mated queen, which I'm not going to do.  I'm kicking around a couple of options. 

Option A: I switch the positions of this hive and my weakest hive.  This will strengthen the weak hive and weaken the strong mean one, hopefully to the point that it becomes a little more manageable.  The potential issue with this is my weak hive is the one most exposed to foot traffic, so I'm concerned that moving the mean hive to that stand will expose more people to angry bees. 

Option B: I do very a crude walk-away split, where I basically set the top two boxes of the mean hive on another stand.  I then see which half of the split has the queen, and the side that doesn't, I combine with my weak hive.  This way the hot hive will be small enough that they will hopefully settle down.  This plan still requires me to lace the weak hive, which is exposed to foot traffic, with mean bees, who may or may not immediately calm down. 

Option C: I do the split plan, but only to make finding the queen easier.  Once I find her I kill her, and then I basically break up the mean hive, and distribute its resources throughout the whole apiary, hoping to water down the mean ones in all the other nice bees.  I would still give more resources to the weak hive, since they are most in need, but I wouldn't give them a ton of adult bees. 

Option D: I give some of the mean hive's resources to the weak hive, and I then feed the mean hive.  Based on the fact that this hive wasn't a problem until fall hit, I'm wondering if they are just really reactive to the nectar dearth we are experiencing now.  Perhaps if I just simulate a flow for them, they'll settle down.  The risk with this is I only have about a month of liquid feeding/inspecting weather left, so if they turn mean again the instant I turn their artificial tap off, I've then made my bed, and I'm going to have to lie in it all winter, and I'm not keen on having to pop open the top to check them and being bombarded every time.   
     
Which option do you think is best?  Does anyone have a better idea I haven't thought of?  Perhaps a combination of the options is better than any one?  What are your thoughts?
         

[Lesgold]

If the hive is that much of an issue to you, I would just toss all the bees out and distribute resources to your weaker hives. When I was new to beekeeping, I would never have considered that as an option as the idea of losing a hive didn?t feel right. The reality is that you don?t lose anything except a queen that you don?t want anyway. You keep the equipment and resources and eliminate a problem. Next spring, a split will give you the replacement hive.

[Bill Murray]

I agree with les. other than that you can keep it through winter, then in the spring cull the queen and replace her. 

[The15thMember]

If the hive is that much of an issue to you, I would just toss all the bees out and distribute resources to your weaker hives. When I was new to beekeeping, I would never have considered that as an option as the idea of losing a hive didn?t feel right. The reality is that you don?t lose anything except a queen that you don?t want anyway. You keep the equipment and resources and eliminate a problem. Next spring, a split will give you the replacement hive.

When you use the word "toss", do you mean literally do a shakeout?  I had considered that too, but I'd have to find a time when I knew people weren't going to be outside for a couple of hours.  My bees are pretty close to my house, and I'd have to feel everyone out on whether they'd be okay with a loose cloud of angry bees for a couple of hours.  However, I could maybe sell them on the fact that this way the problem would be over quickly.     

[Kathyp]

You probably stay warmer longer than we do, but You should be about done messing with them for winter?  If you swap their location and then leave them until spring you will both strengthen your weaker hive and have a much smaller twitchy hive to deal with in spring.  In spring, pinch that bad queen and give them some eggs from a hive that has a queen you like, or just buy a queen if you want.

Unless that hive is so bad that you can't stand it, this is the wrong time of the year to be doing big things.  If you can't stand the hive, pinch the queen and shake out the workers to join your other hives.  You can distribute the brood and honey as you wish.  Start a new hive in the spring.

[Lesgold]

Yes, just a shakeout. If done late in the afternoon it shouldn?t be a problem. If you take the boxes away from the hive, you won?t have to worry about finding the queen. You should be able to find her after the event in aball of bees on the ground.

[TheHoneyPump]

Moving any bees or resources(brood) from a mean hive to other hives .. just makes more mean hives.   Scratch all of those options off of your list.
Keep it contained/quarantined to the one hive.  Relocate the mean hive away from people and the general apiary area.  Kill the queen.  Wait 6 to 8 days.  Destroy all queen cells.  Then either:
A. Give a new queen from known calm stock
B. Give 1 frame of open brood from your sweetest hive.
C. Terminate the colony by soapy water shake, freeze kill all of the brood, redistribute the resources (honey/pollen) to the other hives that need it.

Forget about them and do not visit them for 6 weeks.  When you go back the hive is either sweet and queenrite or a dwindling mess of old LWs. 

Those are your ONLY options.

[Kathyp]

Those are your ONLY options.

Kinda late in the year for some of that?  Moving them away sounds good, but anything else at this time of the year and she might as well drown the hive right off the bat and be done with it seems to me. 

What would be the harm in moving them away and then dealing with them in early spring when the hive size is smaller and there's a better chance of raising a queen if that's what she wants to do?

[The15thMember]

Yes, just a shakeout. If done late in the afternoon it shouldn?t be a problem. If you take the boxes away from the hive, you won?t have to worry about finding the queen. You should be able to find her after the event in aball of bees on the ground.

My question about doing a shakeout would be, how to do shake them out and not get stung to heck?  The last time I opened them up I could barely pull a few frames.  I'm just concerned a shakeout is going to be total chaos. 

Moving any bees or resources(brood) from a mean hive to other hives .. just makes more mean hives.   Scratch all of those options off of your list.
Keep it contained/quarantined to the one hive.  Relocate the mean hive away from people and the general apiary area.  Kill the queen.  Wait 6 to 8 days.  Destroy all queen cells.  Then either:
A. Give a new queen from known calm stock
B. Give 1 frame of open brood from your sweetest hive.
C. Terminate the colony by soapy water shake, freeze kill all of the brood, redistribute the resources (honey/pollen) to the other hives that need it.

Forget about them and do not visit them for 6 weeks.  When you go back the hive is either sweet and queenrite or a dwindling mess of old LWs. 

Those are your ONLY options.

Those are your ONLY options.

Kinda late in the year for some of that?  Moving them away sounds good, but anything else at this time of the year and she might as well drown the hive right off the bat and be done with it seems to me. 

What would be the harm in moving them away and then dealing with them in early spring when the hive size is smaller and there's a better chance of raising a queen if that's what she wants to do?

Yeah, I don't have 7 weeks to do any of that.  If I did, that's what I'd be doing, killing the queen and giving them some open brood.  But I don't have any more drones.  And honestly, I don't see myself killing the whole hive.  That just seems like such a waste to me.  I appreciate your advice about how combining will just make two mean hives, and I get where you are coming from HP, but I'm going to have to try something else and see it fail myself before I would euthanize an entire big healthy colony.     

[Kathyp]

Unfortunately, my experience has been that some of the meanest hives are the best producers. 
 My weather is not like yours or like HoneyPumps, so take this with a grain of salt:  In October we are usually done checking hives.  They are fed or not and will make it or not.  This October has been unseasonably warm so many are still feeding as the bees are still flying.

From here on out, our hives sizes would not increase.  The brood we have would be our overwintering bees and by spring the size would be much smaller.  That's why here, I would wait until spring and drones and then kill the queen and decide what to do with the hive.

Everything we do is location specific so maybe you can find someone in your area that can give you better/more local advice.

[TheHoneyPump]

Do whatever you wish, of course.  Just please do not move mean bees into your nice hives by any of :  combine, shake out, or moving brood.  A bad situation with one hive goes into the other hives and makes the whole apiary worse.   Advice is contain it and minimize it as you see fit, or even terminate it,  just not spread it. 

Beekeeping is supposed to be fun, pleasurable, and productive. The only way to be so is to not carry the weak and do not tolerate the mean or mediocre.   Use that principle to guide your decisions and you will always be happy with the outcomes.

Good luck!

[Ben Framed]

Reagan what is the size of your hive in question? I remember you telling us you use 8 frame mediums? How many boxes?
When I am in a hurry moving only a 'few' nucs, I will sometimes put then in the back of the Expedition. Before doing so I staple a screen onto the opening, eliminating escape in that area. I will also staple the top and bottom to the box as well. If I happen to be transporting double deep 5 framers I will staple the two boxes together plus what was just described. While being careful I have had no problems (so far).. I learned the top stapling and box stapling from a couple of our members here while watching their videos.

I realize in your situation you hive will be to heavy to move as the nucs I described, but if you were to use screen, staples (T-40), and ratchet straps, along with a two wheeler hand truck type dolly, along with some 'good' help, you just might have a better than average chance of success in moving this hive away from the house and further from your people. Even better than a dolly would be a hand operated hive lift.

Phillip

[Kathyp]

Beekeeping is supposed to be fun, pleasurable, and productive.

For sure!   

[Acebird]

Just please do not move mean bees into your nice hives by any of :  combine, shake out, or moving brood.  A bad situation with one hive goes into the other hives and makes the whole apiary worse.

Yet there is advice from many beekeepers that aggressive behavior comes from queen pheromone.  When the lost bees go into a new hive they calm down.
My concern is if the bees are diseased it will spread to the other hives.
If you want a chicken way out put a cake of CO2 on top of the hive and cover it with plastic so they can't get out.  Next day clean up the hive.

[NigelP]

Yet there is advice from many beekeepers that aggressive behavior comes from queen pheromone.  When the lost bees go into a new hive they calm down.

That is actually a yes/no answer. Sometime re queening aggressive bees leads to an almost immediate improvement in temper, most time it doesn't and the bees remain aggressive until they die. If throwing out aggressive bees it can (as honey pump says)  change nice hives into monsters as a small proportion of aggressive bees stinging and releasing alarm pheromone sets off the rest of the "calm" bees. Personal experience tells me you simply cannot tell which way it will go. 
Assuming the hive in question by OP  are only being aggressive when inspected or you approach their defensive zone I'd leave as is until spring and deal with the issue then.
I have a couple like this that are overwintering in a pretty isolated apiary site and will be dealt with next spring. Usually by finding queen and dispatching and then reuniting to adjacent colonies and live with the 3-4 weeks of aggressive bees which is th usual outcome, but enjoy if queen pheromone changes them all to being nice :)....but enjoy even more taking off large amounts of spring honey from a hive packed with bees.

[The15thMember]

Thanks for all the advice everyone.  So here's what I'm thinking.  The dilemma really comes down to whether or not the workers' aggression is being caused by the queen pheromone or not.  Obviously if it's genetic, then moving the workers into other hives won't help, it will only make the other hives aggressive.  If it's the queen pheromone, then would it be correct to assume that if I split the colony, the half without the queen could get calmer?  Obviously queenlessness is a stress, so this is experiment won't really tell me anything if the queenless half is still upset, but if they are calm, that would indicate to me that I could probably combine them with another hive without a problem.  I'm thinking that I'll just break them into two halves for a few days and see whether or not the queenless half calms down.  If they do, then I'll kill the queen and combine this hive with my weak one.  If they don't, then I'll put this hive by itself at the end of the apiary and wait until spring to requeen.  What do you think? 

[TheHoneyPump]

In my experience it is not the queen pheremones, it is genetic.  It is in the bees, not the queen smell.  Once a regularly mean bee always a mean bee.  A requeened hive does calm down .. but that takes a couple to 5 weeks, and the reason is it takes that long for the previous queens bees and brood to cycle out and to die off. 
Sometimes a mean hive does become calm.  As the queen runs out of mean batch of sperm and starts using sperm from other nice drones she had mated with.  This hive may be super tame by spring.  Or may be not.
Trying the split experiment.  They will likely both still be mean, but may seem less so, only because there will be half the bees (half the meanies) in each one.
If were me, at this time of the year I would just terminate the hive. I have low tolerance for such behaviour, especially when they are no longer yielding any benefit to me or the landscape. But that is me, I raise my own bees and queens so the impact of getting rid of one is not a big deal. Others who are clingy to their bees or buy their stock should just move the hive 50-150 yards away and forget about it until spring. Requeen in spring before there are any drones .. else there will be mean drones from this queen at that time, allowing propagation.

[The15thMember]

In my experience it is not the queen pheremones, it is genetic.  It is in the bees, not the queen smell.  Once a regularly mean bee always a mean bee.  A requeened hive does calm down .. but that takes a couple to 5 weeks, and the reason is it takes that long for the previous queens bees and brood to cycle out and to die off. 
Sometimes a mean hive does become calm.  As the queen runs out of mean batch of sperm and starts using sperm from other nice drones she had mated with.  This hive may be super tame by spring.  Or may be not.
Trying the split experiment.  They will likely both still be mean, but may seem less so, only because there will be half the bees (half the meanies) in each one.
If were me, at this time of the year I would just terminate the hive. I have low tolerance for such behaviour, especially when they are no longer yielding any benefit to me or the landscape. But that is me, I raise my own bees and queens so the impact of getting rid of one is not a big deal. Others who are clingy to their bees or buy their stock should just move the hive 50-150 yards away and forget about it until spring. Requeen in spring before there are any drones .. else there will be mean drones from this queen at that time, allowing propagation.

That's true.  Perhaps it's not worth the extra work.  I'll probably just move them to the end of the line and leave them as much alone as possible until spring. 

[Acebird]

If they don't, then I'll put this hive by itself at the end of the apiary and wait until spring to requeen.  What do you think?

In the wild it is brawn over brain.  The aggressive hive has a better chance of survival because it will rob the calm hives.  My feeling is never let a bad situation get worse.

[cao]

I would just move the hive somewhere out of the way, if you have that option, and deal with them next spring.  If was earlier in the year you would have other options.  The loss of foragers to your other hives should calm the mean hive down a little and come spring you will have the time to do what you need to do.  Around here I am done with inspections on my hives for this year.  Anything that needs to be done will be done next spring.