Hive Drumming.

[little john]

Hive Drumming - or - the end of the colony from hell ...

Normally a 'hot' hive doesn't present an issue for me: just move the hive a few feet to one side on a nice sunny day, and get on with it - but I had to deal with a particularly aggressive colony today in one half of a Dual Deep Long Hive, which would be impossible to move whilst occupied.

A week or so ago I read Langstroth's 'Hive and Honey Bee' (edited by Dadant), and he mentions Hive Drumming (which he calls "rapping") in that book - cautioning the reader to smoke the colony well beforehand, else all you get is a face-full of angry bees.  So I tried doing this for the first time in my life this morning, and it works brilliantly.  Nice one, Chas.

Wish I'd known about this technique years ago ...

LJ

[GSF]

LJ, Have you used the drumming technic much? I read of it and placed it on a shelf in my mind for future interests. How well has it worked for you?

[Acebird]

How long does it last and what is the exact technique?

[mtnb]

What little John? I'm not understanding what you're doing. Do you mean tanging? I found a link about drumming the hive to get them to move up into another hive. Is that what you did? I'm not sure what that has to do with a hot hive. The only thing I can find on rapping are some bee rap songs lol or winter wraps. lol Can you explain a little more or do you have a link? What chapter is that in, in the HHB?

[little john]

LJ, Have you used the drumming technic much? I read of it and placed it on a shelf in my mind for future interests. How well has it worked for you?

Used it for the very first time today.  I have this one colony which has chased me off 3 or 4 times this year, just as soon as I opened the hive.  I've never even got to pull a single frame.  Smoke, no smoke, little smoke - tried everything.  Clearly couldn't allow that to continue.  I wasn't looking forward to dealing with that hive at all.  At one point I even considered using petrol (gasoline) and starting again with a nuc in that box.

But then I remembered reading Dadant. Here are the relevant extracts ...

To return to our imprisoned bees: their hive should be beaten smartly with the palms of the hands, or two small rods, on the sides to which the combs are attached, so as to run no risk of loosening them. These "rappings," although not of a very "spiritual" character, produce, nevertheless, a decided effect upon the bees. Their first impulse, if no smoke were used, would be to sally out, and wreak their vengeance on those who thus rudely assail their honied dome; but as soon as they inhale its fumes, and feel the terrible concussion of their once stable abode, a sudden fear, that they are to be driven from their treasures, takes possession of them. Determined to prepare for this unceremonious writ of ejection, by carrying off what they can, each bee begins to lay in a supply, and in about five minutes, all are filled to their utmost capacity. "Hive and Honey Bee", 1919, pp.311 et seq

In order to render the bees of a colony tractable it is only necessary to frighten them so as to compel them to fill themselves with honey.  The bees that are most to be feared are the guards which usually station themselves at the entrance to protect the hive against intrusion.  When these are alarmed and compelled to retire within the hive, it is easy to overcome the possible anger of a colony.

Very cross colonies of black or hybrid bees may be most completely tamed by blowing smoke in at the entrance, then closing it for a few minutes, tapping the hive meanwhile to alarm them.
Dadant - "First Lessons", 1918, pp.38-39

So - what I did was block-off the entrance during the night, to keep the foragers in.  (contrary, or what ?)
Then, I smoked heavily up through the Open Mesh Floor, and slapped the hive sides and top with the palms of my hands.  I really laid it on thick, as I was taking no chances. Waited 5 minutes, then repeated.  And again.

Inside the hive the bees must have been scared wit-less, 'cause when I came to open the box, these absolute horrors had become pussycats.

Maybe I over-did the treatment (this being my first time), but I'd certainly suggest it's worth a try for anyone with a seriously over-defensive hive - black mongrels and so on ...

Seems the old-timers knew a thing or two - I haven't seen any reference to 'Drumming' anywhere except in the context of swarm control and driving bees out of a box.  Maybe it's the wrong term to use, but anyway - that's what I did ... and it's effects were magic.

LJ

[jayj200]

has any others tried this?  we need to know

[little john]

Well, at least one - Charles Dadant - sometime around 1918. 

LJ

[Acebird]

Maybe it's the wrong term to use, but anyway - that's what I did ... and it's effects were magic.

LJ

OK so now what is your plan?  Their nature is not going to change.  Are you planning on doing this any time you open the hive or are you going to get rid of the colony?

[little john]

It's already happened - the queen has been culled, the nurses were shaken out in front of other hives with ramps leading up to their entrances, and the hive in question is now occupied by a strong nuc.  The foragers had been given a holding box near the closed entrance, and were finally allowed back in to their original hive after a delay of 6 hrs.  Hopefully they will not kill their new queen - if they do,  whatever results cannot be any worse than what existed before.  I'll check for q/cells anyway, as a sign of non-acceptance.

I wouldn't want to make a habit of pounding on a hive, but it's good to know that this is an option which can be used in extreme situations.

I do have one more over-defensive colony - which is housed in a moveable hive.  But think I'll try this technique for a second time with it - just for interest - sometime in the next few days.
LJ

[GSF]

Thanks. If my stale memory serves me well you are correct the term is drumming.

[little john]

It's a little after 6 p.m. over here, and I've just taken a look to see if the foragers have all been admitted, but it seems that many haven't figured out yet that the entrance has been opened.

Here's a shot of how things are at 6 p.m. :




Because the frames are so deep, two nuc boxes had to be used to create a holding box (with 2 frames of stores inside to give it a familiar smell) - but using 2 boxes brought the top up very close to the hive entrance, which was useful.

I'll leave the box 'as is' for another hour or two, then see if I can't persuade the remainder to join their chums.

7.15 p.m.  Correction - there's a good 2 or 3 pounds of bees still in that forager holding box - so getting them all airborne and back into the hive will be tomorrow's job.

LJ

[Wombat2]

Works the same if you drop a box full of honey and it rolls down the hill 10 feet 

[PhilK]

Very interesting! Good to know (but hopefully I'll never need to do it). Why not just pinch the queen and requeen? Why shake the nurses out etc?

Normally a 'hot' hive doesn't present an issue for me: just move the hive a few feet to one side on a nice sunny day, and get on with it

Also what does this do? Moving a very hot hive a few feet doesn't make sense to me, bees can fly the few feet back to you to sting you, surely?

[little john]

Very interesting! Good to know (but hopefully I'll never need to do it). Why not just pinch the queen and requeen? Why shake the nurses out etc?

This hive was REALLY 'hot' - the hottest I've ever known in my life - so hot that I couldn't even pull a frame to find the queen to 'squish' her.  Something far more drastic was needed.

Why shake them out ?  Because I wanted to kill-off that genetic line completely, and install a nuc from a good line (and needed to make room for the nuc).  I currently have 4 different sub-types of bee in my home apiary: Mongrels; AMM; a Carnie-Buckfast cross (which arrived as a swarm and are lovely); and 2 genetic lines of pure Carniolan which were imported last year.  So I need to get it down to two (Carnies and the Carnie-Buckfast cross) asap.  I would have preferred to have kept the nurses with the new nuc, and let the foragers take their chances with whichever hives would take them in - but this hive is 100% immovable, so the foragers get to stay instead - well, those that haven't spent the night in a holding box anyway. :^)

Normally a 'hot' hive doesn't present an issue for me: just move the hive a few feet to one side on a nice sunny day, and get on with it

Also what does this do? Moving a very hot hive a few feet doesn't make sense to me, bees can fly the few feet back to you to sting you, surely?

It's a classic technique for separating the foragers (which are the older, and inclined to be the more aggressive of the bees within a colony) from the nurse bees (which are younger and more gentle)  - the foragers home-in on the old site (where the hive used to be) - whilst the nurses who haven't yet been on orientation flights stay with the brood.  Moving the hive just a few feet - no more than six - is enough to achieve this separation.  It makes working on a difficult hive so much easier, without having a cloud of annoyed bees in your face.
 

Works the same if you drop a box full of honey and it rolls down the hill 10 feet

Now there speaks a man with experience .... 
LJ

[Acebird]

Because I wanted to kill-off that genetic line completely,

Wouldn't that require killing the queen and all the drones she created?

[Colobee]

It's been some time since I gave the term "drumming" much thought. In my mind it was a technique for moving bees "down" (and out). Now & then I've read of someone wanting to get bees to move from a medium to a deep, or vice-versa, and passed on sharing that distant memory.
 
Thank you, LJ, for sharing your re-discovery. I had no idea that it was also (instead?) a technique  for dealing with "hot" bees...that's a much more pervasive & current topic. Fortunately, I've discovered a new avenue to Danish Buckfast bees, and couldn't be more pleased with the gentleness - so much so that I'm in the process of culling every last trace of their southern (US) sisters from my yard.
 
Ace - yes - getting rid of the drones is equally, if not more so, important when considering the elimination of "hot" traits. Consider - hundreds upon hundreds of drones, spreading the "evil" influence vs a lone queen capable of perhaps a few or maybe a few dozen queens.

[little john]

Because I wanted to kill-off that genetic line completely,

Wouldn't that require killing the queen and all the drones she created?

The queen is dead.  There is another queen from another line in residence, so there is now little chance of a new queen being generated from the old queen's brood - but - to make sure, now that I can access the hive, I'll be looking out for q/cells during this coming week. 
As many of her larval drones as possible have duly been culled.  A few might still exist, and of course those drones which had emerged prior to the regicide will continue to exist for a few weeks more.

One does what one can - life isn't perfect.

Perhaps I should have said, "as completely as humanly possible, given the existing circumstances" - but I try to avoid pedantry whenever possible.
LJ

[little john]

Thank you, LJ, for sharing your re-discovery. I had no idea that it was also (instead?) a technique  for dealing with "hot" bees...that's a much more pervasive & current topic.

Well - maybe 'Hive Drumming' isn't the correct term to use - but hopefully it sounds slightly more professional than 'Smoke and Slap' ? 

You're quite right about the drones of course - but short of fitting a drone trap (something I had considered) - all one can do is reduce the numbers of drones as quickly as humanly possible.

I do have a number of dedicated drone hives spread around the area, so hopefully the significant numbers of drones from those sources will minimise the spread of evil from the aforesaid bar-stewards ...
LJ
 



 

[texanbelchers]

Fortunately, I've discovered a new avenue to Danish Buckfast bees, and couldn't be more pleased with the gentleness.

More info please - I could use a little less "hot" down here.  The natives get a bit restless and I am thinking of introducing a peace maker queen line.  I've worked through a bunch of removals and swarms, but, although productive, I haven't found any I would call "gentle".

[PhilK]

Mongrels; AMM; a Carnie-Buckfast cross (which arrived as a swarm and are lovely); and 2 genetic lines of pure Carniolan which were imported last year. 

Excuse the ignorance again but what does AMM stand for?

[little john]

Mongrels; AMM; a Carnie-Buckfast cross (which arrived as a swarm and are lovely); and 2 genetic lines of pure Carniolan which were imported last year. 

Excuse the ignorance again but what does AMM stand for?

Apis Mellifera Mellifera - which is a bit of a mouthful, so is often abbreviated to AMM.  These are the bees native to Britain, Germany and much of Western Europe.  They're sometimes known as the German Black Bee, or the British Black Bee.  These would have been the first bees imported into America with the early Pilgrims - as in those days, these would have been the only bees available in Western Europe.  Carniolan, Italian and other bees were introduced much later.   AMM have a reputation for being hardy, but bad tempered, especially when crossed with other types of bee.

I had planned to breed AMM,  as there is a small but growing market for native bees - however, the alleged 'breeding stock' I bought turned out to be worse bees (behaviour-wise) than the existing mongrels they were intended to replace. So much for 'Plan A' ...
So - I decided to breed Carniolans instead, for the beginner market ... but no sooner had I ordered (and paid for) two genetic lines of Carnies, than a swarm of (believed to be) Carniolan-Buckfast bees turned up unannounced, and which have turned out to be one of the nicest crosses of bee I've yet encountered.  Which is odd, because according to some experts, this cross should be extremely nasty.  This cross has now been bred through 4 generations with local drones, and are staying more-or-less true to their original pleasant nature.  As you guys so often say, "go figure".
LJ

[Acebird]

Perhaps I should have said, "as completely as humanly possible, given the existing circumstances" - but I try to avoid pedantry whenever possible.
LJ

I was wondering if a QE is a practical solution to kill off the drones in a case where you used a mated queen?  Assuming it was placed after the drones were all in.

[mtnb]

I do have a number of dedicated drone hives spread around the area, so hopefully the significant numbers of drones from those sources will minimise the spread of evil from the aforesaid bar-stewards ...
LJ

Drone hives? What do those consist of exactly? First I've heard of that.

[little john]

I do have a number of dedicated drone hives spread around the area, so hopefully the significant numbers of drones from those sources will minimise the spread of evil from the aforesaid bar-stewards ...
LJ

Drone hives? What do those consist of exactly? First I've heard of that.

I'm halfway out of the door - so this will have to be quick ...

Q/X's over the entrance will only work if they have a large surface area - otherwise drones will block access completely.  There are purpose-made drone traps available,


Ok - drone hives ...  The problem with open mating (unless you've got your own private island) is that any ol' drone will have his wicked way with your carefully selected and nurtured virgin.

There are two ways I know of, of maximising the chances of the 'right' drone getting to mate.

One is to flood the area using drone hives.  More info here: http://www.apiservices.com/articles/fr/selection_%20queen_breedings.pdf

The second is a technique called 'Midnight Mating' - which doesn't actually happen at midnight, but in the late afternoon.  It was pioneered by an Aussie named Joe Horner. More info here:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-16767.html
You may have already guessed that some of us combine these two techniques. 

Sorry - got to dash - hope that's sufficient info to be getting on with 
LJ

[jayj200]

Ok. I would like to hear from someone. on a farm, not in a neighborhood. that has used drumming on known Africans.
Africans are a known quantity. they are very mean and will sting you up. I know.
trifling with a mean hive. or Africans just isn't the same or equal.
can one tame Africans with this method, is the question?   

[little john]

I'm certainly going to try it a few more times - especially when weather fronts are approaching (which is common enough over here)

Well, I didn't have to wait very long - this was the sky just after 1 p.m. :




Heavily overcast, short bright periods with thunder rumbling in the distance - not the sort of day anyone in their right mind would normally open a beehive - but I managed to inspect six hives under these conditions without any problems until a serious thunderstorm (which put the fields under water for a while and took the broadband connection out for an hour or so) put paid to any more work today.

I didn't slap the hives as before, but just kept smoking the 'next' hive in the row to be inspected and giving it a series of 'raps' with a tool every so often, and so by the time I came to open that hive the bees were as quiet as mice, with most off the frame top bars and clinging to their combs. 

I'm not suggesting that this is a desirable way to go about inspecting hives under normal circumstances, but it's appearing to be very useful when inspecting on a 'bad weather day' - of which we tend to have more than our fair share.
LJ

[GSF]

There's a guy in (?)Honduras who keeps AHBs. He has a website where he posts different things about his bees. I'd bet he'd be a good one to ask. When I get home this evening I'll try to look him up and post his website.

[Ben Framed]

This is an older topic. Have any of you tried this?

Phillip

[Michael Bush]

As far as calming bees down by moving the hive, I've done this many times and it doesn't involve drumming.

As far as moving bees up to the top of the stack of boxes by tapping on the hive.  I've done this a few times.  It works.

As far as getting a swarm to move into a hive after shaking them on a bed sheet, I've done this many times with great success.  Just tap on the side of the hive and soon some bees will start marching in and soon they all start marching in.

[BeeMaster2]

Works the same if you drop a box full of honey and it rolls down the hill 10 feet 

Or drop them off the trailer at 60 miles an hour on the highway. Ask me k how I know? ☺️
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Works the same if you drop a box full of honey and it rolls down the hill 10 feet 

Or drop them off the trailer at 60 miles an hour on the highway. Ask me k how I know? ☺️
Jim Altmiller

Goodness, you fellows have taken drumming to a different level! 

Phillip