Queen Excluder Experiment

[Lesgold]

Hi Folks,

My season has almost finished with just one small extraction to take pace on a few hives in about 6 weeks time. Beekeeping for me is just a hobby and for that reason it gives me a bit of scope to experiment and trial different techniques and methods without the concern of reduced honey crops. For me, it?s just a part of the continual learning curve. Up until last year, I never used queen excluders unless I was chasing comb honey. Last season was the first time that I ran excluders on top of a double brood box. This year I decided to continue down the same path but only two thirds of the hives were given queen excluders. I wanted to compare the honey yields from both methods and examine how the bees reacted in both situations. The anecdotal information that I gathered was actually quite interesting. The first point that I would like to make is that this year was well below average in relation to flows and overall yield. This in itself could have an impact on findings. Yesterday was the final day of extracting so it is now the ideal time to comment on observations while thoughts are still fresh in my head. The hives that had no queen excluders generally produced a lot more honey than the hives that did have excluders. This had me stumped as logic was telling me that bees would bring in nectar regardless of the excluder situation. I went digging a bit deeper to see what was going on. In the hives without excluders, honey was packed into all frames in the top box. Any brood that was initially laid up high by the queen was replaced by nectar as soon as the brood hatched. The queen was then forced to lay in a lower box. In the hives that had a queen excluder, some nectar was placed above the excluder but more than half of it was positioned in the top brood box (below the excluder) mixed with various stages of brood. I am guessing that the amount of honey in all hives would be similar but much of the honey in the top brood box could not be taken. This does not worry me as there will be plenty of stores left to feed the hives over the winter period. From what I have seen, it appears as though the queen excluder acted as a partial barrier to the bees. Their preference is to deposit the nectar below the excluder rather than pushing through it. I?m guessing that if conditions were altered slightly, a different outcome may have been possible. A single brood box would have been a forcing issue as the queen would need all the available room to lay and therefore nectar would be forced above the excluder. A strong flow may also change the situation slightly and push the bees up above the excluder as soon as the top brood box was back filled. I?m only guessing at this point. I would be interested in your thoughts.

Cheers

Les

[G3farms]

I find that a single brood box for the queen to lay in will force them to put more honey stores above the queen excluder, I have seen this to be true many times over.

I also think it depends on the bees themselves, all of mine are mutts. Have several hives set up the same way for honey production but some of them are slower to put honey above the excluder. Not really sure of the reason, seems like the queen actually slows down on brood production in some and others will want to swarm.

I was wondering for the last couple of years about cutting an excluder down to allow the foragers to pass straight up to the honey supers. If you were to cut the sides of the excluder to allow bees to pass freely at the outside of frames 1 and 10. The queen rarely will go to the outside side of the frame to lay eggs. Might put a small strip of wood on the top of frame 1 and 10 to block the path also. Just been kicking that around for a while but never pulled the trigger.

[Ben Framed]

I read your comment G3. It sounds like a good experiment, an FYI type experiment. Chances are someone here might have already tried it at one time or another? Folks like Beesnweeds, TheHoneyPump, Cao, Michael Bish, Beemaster2, Van from Arkansas, Iddee, as well as others come to mind.  If your idea has been tried I have not read of it here. Thinking out of the box is how we all learn. It will be interesting hearing responses to your ideas from others here at Beemaster. Thank you both for posting your thoughts.

Phillip

[NigelP]

Tried going without queen excluders several times, always got the same result.... a plume of brood laid in every super above the brood boxes, making honey extraction from these frames wasted.
The queens I use (Buckfast and Buckfast F1's) are quite fecund and probably because of our colder springs and summers they nearly always prefer to lay in the warmer second top brood box (below the queen excluder) and only extend their brood downwards into bottom box when no room up top. Often have 16-18 frame of brood out of 22 brood box frames.
There is quite a well known UK beekeeper who does not use queen excluders and has no problems....but he is running what what we call local monger queens who struggle to lay 6 frames of brood.
Different bees, different climates different results.

[Lesgold]

Fair comment Nigel. I think that what I found could also change from season to season. G3, that sounds like an interesting experiment. I wonder if the bees would elect to follow a path along the outside of the box to avoid the excluder.

[Ben Framed]

NigelP
Tried going without queen excluders several times, always got the same result.... a plume of brood laid in every super above the brood boxes, making honey extraction from these frames wasted.

And if we later use these for honey, it is harder to uncap these frames which has perviously held brood with the type of uncapping equipment I use. (an Uncapping fork)   
It is so much easier to uncap comb that has never been used as brood comb. A big plus in my opinion in using a QE.

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Those older combs that have held brood or pollen sure build up your muscles and tear down your patience.

[Michael Bush]

A lot of things affect the outcome with an excluder.  One is whether you have drawn comb above it.  One is how much room the queen has to lay  Another is how often you get into the hives.  When queen rearing I tend to use an excluder over one eight frame box.  This really isn't enough room for the queen in the long run but I'm in the hives shaking bees for a starter on a regular basis, so I keep it open for her by moving full combs out and empty combs in.  As far as honey production I don't use excluders.

https://bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm#excluders

Here's what Isaac Hopkins says in the Australasian Bee Manual:
     "Queen Excluders... are very useful in queen rearing, and in uniting colonies; but for the purpose they are generally used, viz., for confining the queen to the lower hive through the honey season, I have no hesitation in condemning them. As I have gone into this question fully on a previous occasion, I will quote my remarks:--

    "The most important point to observe during the honey season in working to secure a maximum crop of honey is to keep down swarming, and the main factors to this end, as I have previously stated, are ample ventilation of the hives, and adequate working-room for the bees. When either or both these conditions are absent, swarming is bound to take place. The free ventilation of a hive containing a strong colony is not so easily secured in the height of the honey season, even under the best conditions, that we can afford to take liberties with it; and when the ventilating--space between the lower and upper boxes is more than half cut off by a queen-excluder, the interior becomes almost unbearable on hot days. The results under such circumstances are that a very large force of bees that should be out working are employed fanning-, both inside and out, and often a considerable part of the colony will be hanging outside the hive in enforced idleness until it is ready to swarm.

    "Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end--swarming--is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space. This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season. A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks.

    "For my part I care not where the queen lays--the more bees the more honey. If she lays in some of the super combs it can be readily rectified now and again by putting the brood below, and side combs of honey from the lower box above; some of the emerging brood also may be placed at the side of the upper box to give plenty of room below. I have seen excluders on in the latter part of the season, the queens idle for want of room, and very little brood in the hives, just at a time when it is of very great importance that there should be plenty of young bees emerging."--Isaac Hopkins, The Australasian Bee Manual

[BeeMaster2]

Another name for a queen excluder is a honey excluder. You can replace the queen excluder with a thin board with the 4 corners cut off, about 2-3 inches.
I don?t use them. If a frame has brood, we just put it back in the hive. We don?t have rules that say we can?t use frames that had brood in them in the past.
Jim Altmiller

[Michael Bush]

Another "solution" is to turn the excluder 90 degrees so it excludes the middle, protrudes on the sides and leaves the ends open.  In this position it acts as a queen discourager.  She usually doesn't go to the ends.

[Ben Framed]

Some of the largest beekeepers and full time honey producers use them. We can name names I suppose, folks such as Ian Stapler and Bob Binnie. I would like to add to that one of our members who posted a picture featuring a stack of full supers so high that he needed a step ladder to reach the top. lol 😊 I suppose the use or non use of queen excluders is debatable. It's not without reason that larger commercial beekeepers as well as many hobbyist beekeepers use them. I suppose this subject as other subjects whose methods found in beekeeping are up to each individual beekeeper to, discover, decipher and then decide for themselves what works best for them in their program. 😊

Phillip

[Michael Bush]

Lloyd Spears who is famous for his comb honey who has been keeping bees longer than me said: "I'm not a good enough beekeeper to use an excluder."  For certain the worst person at using an excluder is a new beekeeper and the only thing worse is a new beekeeper with no drawn comb trying to get bees to go through the excluder to work bare foundation.  You need drawn comb. You also may need to bait the bees through the excluder.  It also helps to have an entrance above the excluder (if you run bottom entrances).  You also have to keep in mind that drones can't get through so you don't trap a bunch of drones in the hive where they can't escape.

[Ben Framed]

Several of our members have discouraged QE use in discussion here in the past while others prefer their use. A person should not simply slap a QE on their hive without first learning the proper use of it. A beekeeper needs to know what they are doing when using a QE. This tool has been discussed and debated several times since I have been here at Beemaster. Even Nigel tells us above, he has been back and forth on the use of a QE, (though he did not go into detail as to 'why' the back and forth). He did say 'why he' uses them. "a 'plume' of brood laid in 'every super' above the brood boxes"

There again, TheHoneyPump has named them being "invaluable". Another member here, Oldbeavo (a commercial beekeeper), prefers their use, as well.  While Iddee does not encourage their use by a "first, second, or even (a third" year beekeeper in some cases), but has said experienced beekeepers can use them profitably.  Each beekeeper who wishes to use them in their future programs should first 'do their homework' then decide. 

I would love to hear more from each side of the isle concerning this topic.

Phillip

[NigelP]

(though he did not go into detail as to 'why' the back and forth)[/i]. He did say 'why he' uses them. [
Phillip

The back and forth bit has really been about honey yields; as Les says he gets more honey without an excluder.  I would like more honey as I make a considerable part of my income by selling honey. But, not once has it worked for me. With all the brood in the supers I would have to conclude that I get less honey by not using queen excluders. But that is my experience in a temperate (cool) country with very fecund queens.
There seems to be a lot of "dogma" on the issue, but it's rarely clarified with details of climate, type of queens etc. More a blank "this is what I do", when the author is really saying this is what happens in my location with the type of bees I keep. More information would be helpful.
The queens I use are Island mated pure bred Buckfast queens (well as pure as a designer mongrel Buckfast bee can be :)) from Denmark.

[Michael Bush]

One of the primary factors is how often you get into the hives.  The ones in my home yard I keep excluders on and actually keep the queen in one eight frame medium box, which is half the size of a 10 frame deep.  Why?  It makes it easy for me to find the queen, to find the right age larvae to graft and to find brood to shake bees from.  Why does it work in my home yard?  Because I'm in the hive's often enough to keep the brood nest open by feeding in empty combs and removing full ones.  Does it hurt my honey yield under those circumstances?  Not that I can tell.  But in my outyards I run no excluders.  If I'm lucky I get through them once a month or so.  Not often enough to keep the brood nest open.  I get more honey without the excluder if I'm not in the colony that much.  And for honey production they probably do better if I'm not in the colony too much.  The point is, it's not just using or not using it.  It's how you're using it.  I'm sure it would cost me honey to run the outyards with excluders.

[NigelP]

And so another couple of contradictory factors and exceptions are introduced. Frequent inspections plus queen excluder and removal of frames has no affect, infrequent inspections with no queen exluder increase honey.
The mind boggles.

[Ben Framed]

There are times I wish I could get away with once a month inspections. 😊
Here again may point to the consideration of location? At my location the ever present SHB threat must watched closely. Even if I had oil trays on every hive, I would be reluctant to wait a month in between inspections. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 😊

Phillip

[NigelP]

So would I.
But I'd loose swarms (despite clipping queen wings) from many hives. Mr Bush is indeed most fortunate in being able to inspect at that infrequency. During the season  I try for every 5-6 days and manage accordingly to what is found. Alas, I don't always succeed in keeping to schedule :D
Thankfully usually find clipped queen and rest of swarm has stayed with queen on ground......

[Ben Framed]

Nigel I am glad you posted this. I am considering clipping as well. I had an experience with a swarm either last season or the season before that began leading me in that direction. I will look for the post and if I can find it I will add on to it there. Most likely starting a new topic as not to stray to far from LesGolds good topic here on QE.

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Last year I ran queen excluders on most of my hives and produced my largest haul of honey in a single season. That wasn?t due to the queen excluder, it was just an exceptional season that had a larger than normal number of flows which included a winter crop. I know I sacrificed my yield because of that but the use of an excluder actually reduced my workload and made pulling honey a little easier as I didn?t have to watch for the queen when pulling frames. (I have seen the queen on fully capped frames of honey but this was generally when the adjoining frame held brood)  I noticed that my hives were not quite as big as usual but that was OK as well as hive management was a little easier without the huge quantities of bees to deal with. The use of a queen excluder was planned a year before the season started as the cycle of flowering and the evidence of budding indicated what would occur. This season was always going to be a poor one. The mistake that I made was to use excluders when I should have left them off the hive. My yield this season was impacted by my decision but that?s just another part of learning. Everyone?s situation is slightly different. If I had to rely on an income from bees and ran a large number of hives, I would use an excluder every day of the week. If I had two or three hives in the backyard, I would never use an excluder. That?s  just a personal choice. I just mentioned that my honey yield was low this season due to the use of excluders. There is however, still plenty of honey in the hive which will contribute towards winter stores. Essentially, the honey is not lost, it?s just being used in a different way.