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Author Topic: 4th of July  (Read 1409 times)

Offline cidersabuzzin

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4th of July
« on: July 04, 2022, 06:22:45 pm »
Are you now smelling the coffee?
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2022, 06:51:39 am »
It doesn't smell like coffee...  I wish it did...
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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2022, 02:54:20 pm »
It doesn't smell like coffee...  I wish it did...
To my mind, it was a rhetorical question, referencing the shooting in Illinois.......but it so soon will be forgotten.......... won't  make any difference.......hope you're proud :sad:
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2022, 05:30:12 pm »
Quote
To my mind, it was a rhetorical question, referencing the shooting in Illinois.......but it so soon will be forgotten.......... won't  make any difference.......hope you're proud

What would be your point?
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2022, 09:40:49 pm »
Quote
To my mind, it was a rhetorical question, referencing the shooting in Illinois.......but it so soon will be forgotten.......... won't make any difference.......hope you're proud

What would be your point?
Kathy
Don't be so obtuse, you know exactly what the point was! No matter what we say, the poor victims will still be just a few more acceptable 'collateral damage' to the NRA. Maybe I should have qualified 'you're' to 'them'
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2022, 11:50:04 pm »
Quote
Kathy
Don't be so obtuse, you know exactly what the point was! No matter what we say, the poor victims will still be just a few more acceptable 'collateral damage' to the NRA. Maybe I should have qualified 'you're' to 'them'

Obtuse...Lol.  Not usually slung at me, but OK.  I just wanted to know that I understood what you were after.

Yes, it is sad that this kind of thing happens.  Unlike you guys, we realize that the problem is not the tool, but the person and society.  As long as society is degrading, I am not at all happy to give up my self-defense. Since no one wants to deal with the degradation of society and the reasons for it, I'll keep my guns, thanks.

Don't be so foolish as to buy into the NRA crap.  The kind of people who do this crap don't belong to the NRA or any of the many other gun owner associations in this country.

Remove the mote from thine own eye.  Does it matter whether people are killed one at a time or as a group?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47156957

and maybe they should address the gang issues before they come after my guns?
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/10-killed-at-least-62-wounded-in-fourth-of-july-weekend-shootings-in-chicago/2873732/
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2022, 07:13:10 am »
Cider,
You seem to forget that Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. It makes it very hard for the honest law abiding citizen to protect themselves against the thugs that could care less about the gun laws. Actually it helps them because they know that only the other thugs have guns to bee able to fight back.
Gun laws and gun free zones only make it easier for the nuts to make a big name form themselves as the go out in ablaze of glory. It also makes it easier for the new gang members to kill some innocent bystander as part of their initiation as in common in the worst of the gangs.
Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country because they have the toughest gun laws. The same is true in every city and state in the country that has real strict gun laws.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2022, 08:44:15 am »
Cider,
You seem to forget that Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country.
But not tough enough.  Jim what you want to ignore it that these mass shootings occur on a regular basis only in the US.  We all agree (I think) that these are nut cases.  What we don't agree on is giving up a small amount of freedom to prevent these nuts from getting firearms.  You sounding off that everyone needs a gun is a prime example.  I know you personally don't want the nuts to have guns but I am not convinced that the NRA doesn't want these nuts to have guns nor do I think they have any thought of keeping them away from criminals.  They were well represented at the Jan 6th insurrection.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2022, 09:09:13 am »
>But not tough enough.

I don't see how they can be tougher.  Guns are basically illegal in Chicago.  Apparently the criminals don't seem to care... I'm not sure why...

>They were well represented at the Jan 6th insurrection.

I've seen no evidence that anyone at the protest on Jan 6th was armed at all.  Guns were certainly not well represented...

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Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2022, 11:11:13 am »
Quote
But not tough enough.  Jim what you want to ignore it that these mass shootings occur on a regular basis only in the US.  We all agree (I think) that these are nut cases.  What we don't agree on is giving up a small amount of freedom to prevent these nuts from getting firearms.  You sounding off that everyone needs a gun is a prime example.  I know you personally don't want the nuts to have guns but I am not convinced that the NRA doesn't want these nuts to have guns nor do I think they have any thought of keeping them away from criminals.  They were well represented at the Jan 6th insurrection.

Tough gun laws don't matter anyway if you don't enforce them.  NYC had this issue in the 70s.  It was so bad that there were international travel warnings about going to NY.  It wasn't just about guns.  They had muggings, robberies, fires, rapes...and NYC managed to clean things up and become one of the safest big cities in the US. 

We know how to fix this, but there has to be a will.

As for the nutter shootings, in a country of 350 million (legal) people, they are statistically rare.  If you subtract the digruntled employee shootings and the disgruntled Muslim shootings, you have few left.  So few that they make big news and we remember their names.
Can we do anything about these people?  I think so, but there has to be a will to do it.

You are happy to want to take the rights from people like me. (How do you define a "small amount of freedom"?) How about we start tossing some of these identified nutters in nut houses and keeping them there?  This guy was known.  There was no reason for him to be out on the streets, and at the least, it appears that if law enforcement had made the proper reports, he would not have been able to buy weapons.

You can deal with the tool, but that won't solve the problem.

Going to make a prediction here:  they are going to blame his mental issues on FAS.  If ever there was someone who displayed the characteristics of Fetal Alcohol Syndrom, it is he. 



There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2022, 06:42:17 pm »
If this 'nutter' as you say was able to buy an auto rifle and fire 70 rounds in one of the strictest gun-controlled cities. Imagine how easy it must be in the lax and benevolent states........it won't be long before you're dropping off your 5yr old at primary complete with a lunch box packed with sandwiches, apple, a Glock 9mm, and wearing an armoured vest. What a society to live in!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 07:30:00 pm by cidersabuzzin »
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2022, 06:51:54 pm »
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If this 'nutter' as you say was able to buy an auto rifle and fire 70 rounds in one of the strictest gun-controlled cities. Imagine how easy it must be in the lax and benevolent states........it won't be long before you're dropping off your 5yr old at primary complete with a lunch box packed with sandwiches, apple, a Glock 9mm, and wearing an armoured vest.

You consume to much US leftist news.   :wink:  That child is more likely to be killed on the way to school in a traffic accident.

This is another example of existing laws not having been followed.  There is more to learn, as is always true after these events, but this guy should have come under the states already passed red flag laws, or just have been reported to the federal agency doing the background checks.  Additionally, it appears his family covered for him and helped him get the weapons.
I am in favor of going after families in cases like this.  They often play a part in these tragedies.  We had one here in Oregon years ago where the family knew the kid was a nutter and the father bought him a gun.  Colombine many years ago was another example of parents not parenting. 

You do a thing in the UK where you intervene in families with your anti-social behavior laws.  IDK if we could do that here because of the civil rights folks, but something like it would not be a bad idea since we have so many families that are so disfunctional.  Depending on how it was structured, it would be a better 1st step of getting these folks on the radar than the red flag laws. 

There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2022, 07:11:03 pm »
I just got around to skimming the Tucker monologue where he's talking about antidepressants.  He's not the first to wonder if some of the behaviors, including shootings and increased suicides are related to the massive increase in people taking these drugs.  We have a personal family experience with someone who went to the doc because they were depressed over job and marriage failures, was put on an antidepressant, and committed suicide within a couple of months.

Antidepressants don't really make you less depressed, but they make you care less about being depressed...and about everything else.  Increased risk of suicide is a known risk with these drugs.  Why?  Because the logical part of you that would make you seriously consider the consequences to yourself and those around you if you kill yourself seems to be suppressed.

If you cease to care about yourself and others, and if you are already over the edge mentally, then shooting up a parade or school would be no big deal.  It would be some kind of interesting thing that you want to try...and since you have been watching 24/7 news and frequenting social media which talks about this kind of stuff endlessly, the contagion effect would be easy to pick up.

While these shootings are rare, there has been an increase in the last few decades. There's been a massive increase in suicide and hard drug use. Might be a good thing if someone tried to get to the bottom of it? 





There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2022, 07:59:27 pm »
Quote
If this 'nutter' as you say was able to buy an auto rifle and fire 70 rounds in one of the strictest gun-controlled cities. Imagine how easy it must be in the lax and benevolent states........it won't be long before you're dropping off your 5yr old at primary complete with a lunch box packed with sandwiches, apple, a Glock 9mm, and wearing an armoured vest.

You consume to much US leftist news.   :wink:  That child is more likely to be killed on the way to school in a traffic accident.

This is another example of existing laws not having been followed.  There is more to learn, as is always true after these events, but this guy should have come under the states already passed red flag laws, or just have been reported to the federal agency doing the background checks.  Additionally, it appears his family covered for him and helped him get the weapons.
I am in favor of going after families in cases like this.  They often play a part in these tragedies.  We had one here in Oregon years ago where the family knew the kid was a nutter and the father bought him a gun.  Colombine many years ago was another example of parents not parenting. 

You do a thing in the UK where you intervene in families with your anti-social behavior laws.  IDK if we could do that here because of the civil rights folks, but something like it would not be a bad idea since we have so many families that are so disfunctional.  Depending on how it was structured, it would be a better 1st step of getting these folks on the radar than the red flag laws.
Kathy
The Glock and vest were a rhetorical description. As regards 'leftist news' I only get it from here, where do you get your 'Rightist' views?
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2022, 09:47:03 pm »
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The Glock and vest were a rhetorical description. As regards 'leftist news' I only get it from here, where do you get your 'Rightist' views?

The majority of your news is leftist.  That's OK, so is ours.  I get my views from life, education, and practical thinking.   :wink:
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2022, 07:08:56 am »
>Imagine how easy it must be in the lax and benevolent states......

...where things like this almost never happen...
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Offline Acebird

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2022, 08:50:28 am »
>But not tough enough.

I don't see how they can be tougher. 
Kathy>
Quote
This is another example of existing laws not having been followed.  There is more to learn, as is always true after these events, but this guy should have come under the states already passed red flag laws, or just have been reported to the federal agency doing the background checks.  Additionally, it appears his family covered for him and helped him get the weapons.
Red flag laws were followed.  The cops confiscated knives and in a short time they were given back to the father.  Because everyone has a right to own weapons. :rolleyes:  The cops reported the incident to the state police and washed their hands.   The red flag laws are temporary not permanent.  The primary effectiveness of red flag laws is for suicide not planned mass shootings over long periods of time. 
The constitution makes no mention of mental illness because the right to bear arms was meant for militias to protect against foreign invaders.  It is assumed that if you had a mental issue you would not be part of a militia.
To answer Mikes question what is needed is very extensive back ground checks and waiting periods for ALL sales of firearms.  If anyone exhibits any kind of aggression, sorry for your luck, you never get a fire arm.  No pass on "I was just joking".  That is how the law can get tougher.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2022, 09:10:49 am »
We have a personal family experience with someone who went to the doc because they were depressed over job and marriage failures, was put on an antidepressant, and committed suicide within a couple of months.
You have no clue.
Prescription drugs are very dependent on monitoring where someone else is responsible for the ingestion of the pills.  If it is up to the patient the timing is likely to be screwed up.  We are a pill pushing society because like the NRA to guns the pharmaceuticals have their presence in government to keep the cash flowing.  Putting pills in the hands of a mentally ill patient is similar to putting guns and ammo into those same hands without someone else monitoring.
The military is the best example of the combination of mental illness combined with drugs and weapons.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2022, 11:28:56 am »
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Red flag laws were followed.  The cops confiscated knives and in a short time they were given back to the father.  Because everyone has a right to own weapons. :rolleyes:  The cops reported the incident to the state police and washed their hands.   The red flag laws are temporary not permanent.  The primary effectiveness of red flag laws is for suicide not planned mass shootings over long periods of time.
The constitution makes no mention of mental illness because the right to bear arms was meant for militias to protect against foreign invaders.  It is assumed that if you had a mental issue you would not be part of a militia.
To answer Mikes question what is needed is very extensive back ground checks and waiting periods for ALL sales of firearms.  If anyone exhibits any kind of aggression, sorry for your luck, you never get a fire arm.  No pass on "I was just joking".  That is how the law can get tougher.

While you are taking your government and history class, take a class on red flag laws around the country and on background checks and how they work.
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: 4th of July
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2022, 06:47:37 am »
Condescension rears its ugly head again :rolleyes:
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