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Author Topic: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?  (Read 9150 times)

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Cut out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2021, 10:09:18 am »
BIG edit to my post. Should have read: Cut Outt Gone Sour.  Sorry guys. But it became clear as the thread continued anyway. Thanks for your patience.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Online Acebird

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2021, 10:13:45 am »
Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box, If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose openiing, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box,
No this is completely wrong.  You are using terms you don't understand.  If you plug up the peg board the pressure and air flow go to 0 in the catch box.  On the other side of the peg board between it and the motor the air flow again goes to 0 but the pressure goes to maximum.  In the case of the bees puking this is the most likely cause.  I don't know how I can explain it better to you what the difference is between air pressure and air flow.  They are NOT the same.
Now what you explained about your design has got me thinking about the shop vac design.  I just looked at the two shop vacs I have (Rigid) and they do indeed separate the suction air from the cooling air that passes through the motor.  They must have added another fan to cool the armature and kept it separate from the suction air.  So in this case I have to retract what I said about filters.  If the air flows are separate then the filters mean nothing and the debris can not cause a fire hazard.
Ok lets get back to what you said about the hose entering into the catch box.  The PRESSURE remains the same but the air flow changes drastically.  It drops like a rock.  That is why the bees slow down and don't hit the wall on the other side.  But if there was an elbow in the end of a hose like in most shop vacs it would smash bees.  That is the main difference between the standard shop vac and a bee vac that has a catch box.  Also the filter cage is out of the way so it is a longer distance before there is an obstruction to hit.
If I were to design a bee vac I would not use peg board.  I would use 1/8 screen and make it the largest area possible.  Pegboard closes off more then half the area.  As 2sox has indicated when the bees cover this screen trouble starts.  They are going to cover the screen because the air flow has slowed down to a point where they can move around and congregate on the screen.  If a helper was present he/she might be able to tamp the catch box on the ground to knock them off the screen.  The trouble is if the catch box is not something you can see through you don't know if you are doing any good.  Those that were designing bee vacs for market should have made the first one out of Plexiglas or better yet polycarbonate.  At least have windows in it so you can see what is happening.
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Re: Cut out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2021, 10:33:00 am »
So that motor was running for 10 hours.

OMG! Ten hours in the hot sun ... no wonder you are burning up the motor.  A shop vac is not designed to run continuous for long periods of time.  If this is what is required a shop vac motor should not be used.  They have brushes.  They might be cheap but it makes perfect sense that they burn up.  You want to use a blower that has a squirrel cage motor, no brushes.  A better option might be gas powered blower but ten hours continuous is a very demanding design criteria.  Holy cow.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2021, 10:58:12 am »
>Ben,
EXCELLENT post.  Extremely clear. Thank you. And I had not known the reason for the holes and the peg board before you described it here. Very logical and scientific. Thank you for that.  For those interested in the Colorado Bee Vac that Ben described, here is the website:

https://www.coloradobeerescue.com

Here is the Bushkill:

https://www.beevac.com
<

Thank you 2Sox, your kind words are much appreciated. Actually I was not describing the Colorado vac but my home build Colorado (type) vac. I can not speak for Colorado. I have neverpersonally seen one, only what I have watched on videos. I have had excellent results and experiences with my vac. Wishing the same for everyone else, whichever design they may chose. And again I apologize to you for my getting off track on your topic.
PS if you use the honey robber please let me in on the results.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 11:56:08 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2021, 11:04:21 am »
If you're familiar with the three vacs I mentioned, only the detachable head that inserts into the Bushkill has a self contained filter. It?s easy to remove for cleaning. Neither the Colorado nor the Owens have self contained filters. Invites motor burnout. (I keep the motors for each of these vacs running all the time during cutouts - to prevent bee escape and bee suffocation. This invites motor burnout also after awhile.)
I am not familiar with the details of each design and I have never done a cut out but I have years, and years, and years of experience with machine design and this is a machine.  In a normal shop vac the suction air passes over the armature and stator of the motor to keep the windings cool.  If you remove the filters dirt will pass through the motor and destroy the armature as you have found out.  What Phil did is a bad idea both for the armature and the possibility of fire from bits of wax, honey and propolise going through the motor and around the arching brushes.  A screen is not adequate.  I doubt if any of the bee vacs offered today could pass UL. because of this problem.
 
Quote
Also, it?s absolutely necessary to check suction force - reason being obvious - so why do you advise not doing so?
Because the instant you close off the hose you stop air flow in the hose.  If you stop air flow even for a few seconds the bees can clump.  Now the instant you unblock the hose the mass of bees that clumped will be shot into the container like a ball throwing machine for batting practice.  I am trying to get you off the idea of "suction" (pressure) as what you need to control because what you need to control is air flow (velocity).  You should look for an air flow indicator mounted on the nozzle end of the hose that will give you a constant indication while you are using it.  Then if the bees build up on the screen in your catch box you will see it as a loss of air flow.  By using the devise you will determine what values are safe and when you are pushing your luck.
Now for controlling air flow you have two options.  One is the traditional way of opening up another hole which let air in there by decreasing the amout of air that is drawn through you vacuum hose..  The second way is to down size the pump or reduce its speed.  Actually I should mention a third way which is to increase the dia of the hose.
Because I have no experience I cannot tell you what air velocity would be good.  I could advise you what to do if it is too high or too low but I think you can figure that part out yourself with the three options I have suggested.
Suggestions on hoses:  The hose should be smooth on the inside so not a pool hose.

It is difficult for me to adequately reply to your post without sounding patronizing because since you have not worked with a bee vac I really don?t know how much you know about them.  I?ll give it a try though.

It is a moot point about closing the opening of a hose - and what you describe happening to the bees inside the hose - because it is never done. There is no reason for it.

Also, in regards to cutouts, suction and velocity are essentially the same concept and the terms are interchangeable.

Another point you mention is air flow and how to control it. (By the way we can also say that this term is interchangeable with the two others above.) The design for air flow control is built into each bee vac. So there is no need to comment further on that. The things I always constantly check during every cutout and which is critical is suction at the hose tip. Tapping the tip gently is all you need to do to check for this. You will know immediately how to make adjustments. It?s fast and efficient. You don?t need a meter - and you don?t want one.

The idea of a meter on the hose opening to read flow is interesting but completely impractical; if you have ever done a cutout you would understand this. There are a thousand things you need to keep track of and a meter is an extra you don?t need because there is a simpler way.  (Note: Some have used a router control to adjust the electrical current coming into the unit. It works but that?s the weight of another piece of equipment and more wire that you don?t need climbing up a ladder - or onto a scaffolding.)

« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 08:32:26 pm by 2Sox »
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Cut out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2021, 11:23:25 am »
So that motor was running for 10 hours.

OMG! Ten hours in the hot sun ... no wonder you are burning up the motor.  A shop vac is not designed to run continuous for long periods of time.  If this is what is required a shop vac motor should not be used.  They have brushes.  They might be cheap but it makes perfect sense that they burn up.  You want to use a blower that has a squirrel cage motor, no brushes.  A better option might be gas powered blower but ten hours continuous is a very demanding design criteria.  Holy cow.

Yep. Ten hours. And it only took 12 years to finally burn out. I?d say that is a pretty good run for a motor. I?ll be retired before the next motor burns out on me.

Ridgid has a lifetime free replacement guarantee. To my knowledge it does not indicate maximum number of runtime hours on it. They sent me a free vacuum after I submitted the necessary information.

*By the way, my Craftsman vac motor head is still running and I have had it longer.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2021, 03:15:03 pm »
Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box, If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose openiing, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box,
No this is completely wrong.  You are using terms you don't understand.

> No this is completely wrong. 

No; it is not.

>You are using terms you don't understand. 

Wrong again

> If you plug up the peg board the pressure and air flow go to 0 in the catch box.

I did not say plug up the peg board.There are some key words that you left out on you quote. I was attempting to explain to you the importance of the peg board, and the importance of each individual peg hole, I did say.  .
 
"Now, If we were to purposely cover X numbers of peg holes then things might start changing if enough of the holes were purposely plugged. Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box,
If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose opening, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box, but we don't because of design."

Adding: I do not know how many of these peg holes would have to be left open, to equal that of the hose opening 'area'.
The standard unit of 'area' in the International System of Units ( SI ) is the meter squared (m 2 ). Area is usually measured or defined on a flat surface, also called a Euclidean plane, or on a spherical surface. I'll let you figure it out!
:shocked: :cheesy: :wink:


I hope that helps..
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 03:42:22 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Acebird

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Re: Cut out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2021, 07:38:52 pm »

Ridgid has a lifetime free replacement guarantee.
If you used it as a shop vac.  They do not know that you are using it as a bee vac.
Good that you got 10 years out of it.  Can't quite understand what your worry was about burning up the motor with a 30 ft hose.  The hose length will not affect how long the motor will last.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2021, 07:44:09 pm »
Brian It was not 2Sox that claimed use of the 30' hose is was me.  :cheesy:

Ok my turn, what have I done wrong in your view? lol,  got to luv ya ......
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2021, 08:10:45 pm »

It is difficult for me to adequately reply to your post without sounding patronizing because since you have not worked with a bee vac I really don?t know how much you know about them.  I?ll give it a try though.

It is a moot point about closing the opening of a hose - and what you describe happening to the bees inside the hose - because it is never done. There is no reason for it.
Do not worry about patronizing me.  I am trying to help you understand what happens and why not just for you but anyone who may want to build their own bee vac.  You stressed the need to constantly check suction.  I made the assumption that you were doing that by putting your hand over the nozzle.  That is what most people would do.  Good that you don't do that.

Quote
The things I always constantly check during every cutout and which is critical is suction at the hose tip. Tapping the tip gently is all you need to do to check for this.
I am not sure what you mean by tapping the tip gently.  If this involves closing the nozzle off then I will insist that this is a bad idea.  If Jim is correct that vacuum pressure causes the bees to puke that is one practice that could be the route cause.
Quote
The idea of a meter on the hose opening to read flow is interesting but completely impractical; if you have ever done a cutout you would understand this. There are a thousand things you need to keep track of and a meter is an extra you don?t need because there is a simpler way.  (Note: Some have used a router control to adjust the electrical current coming into the unit. It works but that?s the weight of another piece of equipment and more wire that you don?t need climbing up a ladder - or onto a scaffolding.)
If an indicator is not necessary why are you tapping the tip?  I did not say meter.  Some would say it is impractical to drag a bee vac up a ladder or scaffolding when a longer hose will do the trick.  Some people like to work harder.  That is your right.  If you want to learn the easy way maybe you could try to understand some physical properties of vacuums and why Phil is successful with a long hose.  Suction, (pressure) and air flow are not the same.  Cannot be discussed as being the same.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2021, 08:24:23 pm »
Brian it is always a pleasure to discuss things with you. There is a fellow who lives in North Mississippi and is a youtuber. "The Wall Beeman". Very nice elderly Gentleman.
Tim has a couple of videos showing a Rigid shop vac in use vacuuming bees. Actually it was his sons idea to convert the vac to not only use for bees, but also multi-purpose use. I can't remember exactly how he set it up, I am thinking he had a soft foam on the part of the inside vac which serves as a deflector, so that a bee might not slap against the hard deflector. It's been awhile and that may be wrong. Actually if memory serves me well enough, I am thinking he cut a new hole at another location of the vac housing for an inlet hose to stop bees from hitting anything that might injure them. (No pegboard was added). Tim had Tim Junior exhibit the vac. It did indeed work very well and was good for both purposes! Rigid makes a great vac, a vac they are very proud of. Of course I cant speak for Rigid, but, I don't know that they would be particular what was vacuumed? Maybe maybe not?  2Sox said he uses a filter. It could be that Rigid would be proud of 2Sox testimony of using this vac for 10 years before any problems! That is amazing! I do not know if a vac used especially for shop purpose could hold up that long, even a Rigid!
If I can find the video I will post it for you.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 08:41:07 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2021, 08:32:35 pm »
The actual demonstration and explanation is near the end. (7:50) Timeline.


https://youtu.be/KfMJGGQfYOU
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2021, 09:05:56 pm »

It is difficult for me to adequately reply to your post without sounding patronizing because since you have not worked with a bee vac I really don?t know how much you know about them.  I?ll give it a try though.

It is a moot point about closing the opening of a hose - and what you describe happening to the bees inside the hose - because it is never done. There is no reason for it.
Do not worry about patronizing me.  I am trying to help you understand what happens and why not just for you but anyone who may want to build their own bee vac.  You stressed the need to constantly check suction.  I made the assumption that you were doing that by putting your hand over the nozzle.  That is what most people would do.  Good that you don't do that.

Quote
The things I always constantly check during every cutout and which is critical is suction at the hose tip. Tapping the tip gently is all you need to do to check for this.
I am not sure what you mean by tapping the tip gently.  If this involves closing the nozzle off then I will insist that this is a bad idea.  If Jim is correct that vacuum pressure causes the bees to puke that is one practice that could be the route cause.
Quote
The idea of a meter on the hose opening to read flow is interesting but completely impractical; if you have ever done a cutout you would understand this. There are a thousand things you need to keep track of and a meter is an extra you don?t need because there is a simpler way.  (Note: Some have used a router control to adjust the electrical current coming into the unit. It works but that?s the weight of another piece of equipment and more wire that you don?t need climbing up a ladder - or onto a scaffolding.)
If an indicator is not necessary why are you tapping the tip?  I did not say meter.  Some would say it is impractical to drag a bee vac up a ladder or scaffolding when a longer hose will do the trick.  Some people like to work harder.  That is your right.  If you want to learn the easy way maybe you could try to understand some physical properties of vacuums and why Phil is successful with a long hose.  Suction, (pressure) and air flow are not the same.  Cannot be discussed as being the same.

Ace,
I think we all need to pay attention to the KISS rule here.

To begin, I ?tap? the hose opening with my fingers, to check suction force. Too strong a suction kills bees - all described in earlier posts.  It?s not rocket science. That?s all you need to do. The hose opening IS NOT closed off.  (And ?most people? DO NOT do this either.) I thought I made that clear.

Your comment on ?some people like to work harder' was unnecessary - and borders on insulting. I explained why I do not use long hoses - I do not want to kill bees. Most people would respect that - not make such a comment. And by the way, if JP and others are successful with long hoses, that?s fine. I will not use them because I learned from experience, they are disasters.

I stand corrected: You did NOT use the term ?meter?. The term you used was air flow ?indicator'. (I won?t ask what you meant by this.)

Do you think it might be a good idea to reserve your opinions on these matters until you start doing cutouts yourself and gain some experience and practical knowledge?

I?d like to be useful to you but it is very difficult when you insist on commenting on things you haven?t lived through. There is A LOT of trial and error and we all learn - hopefully - from our mistakes.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Online Acebird

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2021, 08:36:00 am »

Do you think it might be a good idea to reserve your opinions on these matters until you start doing cutouts yourself and gain some experience and practical knowledge?
Short answer is no.  Beemaster is a forum where topics are discussed and other people learn from the discussions.  Discussions come from all walks of life.  Do you want new beekeepers to be quiet because they have no experience?
The best solutions to any problem come from those with experience and those with technical knowledge.  That is why the forum is so valuable.  It doesn't work when someone thinks they can't learn anything from someone who has less experience then them.  Such a pity.
This will be my last post to this topic.
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2021, 10:22:07 am »

Do you think it might be a good idea to reserve your opinions on these matters until you start doing cutouts yourself and gain some experience and practical knowledge?
Short answer is no.  Beemaster is a forum where topics are discussed and other people learn from the discussions.  Discussions come from all walks of life.  Do you want new beekeepers to be quiet because they have no experience?
The best solutions to any problem come from those with experience and those with technical knowledge.  That is why the forum is so valuable.  It doesn't work when someone thinks they can't learn anything from someone who has less experience then them.  Such a pity.
This will be my last post to this topic.

Being your last post to this thread is a very good decision and I think it wise that you took the suggestion.

I personally am grateful to you for your very useful posts on other subjects in the past - and I am certain others are too. You and every person here have every right to offer opinions; that is why were are all here. And I agree with you. As you said, [/quote]The best solutions to any problems comes from those with experience and those with technical knowledge[/quote]

However, it is very difficult to discuss the challenges of the real world experience of a cutout with someone who hasn?t actually done one. Yes, there are principle of science that hold true for any issue and your comments in attempting to apply these were very useful. (You had me thinking a long time about what happens to bees if you close off the hose opening during vacuuming. But since that?s never done - as I indicated -  I was not too worried about that.) But some of your suggestions could be compared to a person without a drivers license telling someone how to back up an 18 wheeler. You just do not KNOW enough about the process, or the equipment used, to say the things you did, and I think you could have given our responses more thought. Humility often goes a long way at these times.

Good disagreements and arguments always have positive results. And opinions are VERY important; crucial to any subject. But we can?t disagree or argue about something that we have no practical knowledge or experience with. It is impractical and not useful. I?m personally grateful to Ben for his patience and good nature and his gracious responses. But there is so much that can be said before it becomes an effort in futility.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 11:18:56 am by 2Sox »
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2021, 11:27:54 am »
All is well that ends well. I agree with you both. Discussion with experience as well as a non experienced person can, does, and will bring learned gathered knowledge. The questions and suggestions from each of you along with my shared personal experience gave each of us a chance to convey our way of thinking along with our viewpoints. The old saying two heads are better than one comes to mind. In this case I will add to that, three heads are better than one! I throughly enjoyed our discussion. Even more importantly maybe some of our future members will have different points of view to relate to if they were to decide in the future to build, buy, or design their own BEE 🐝 vac. I have no doubt that each style vac mentioned here is a good bee vac. The proof is in the pudding. 100 plus removals and cut outs by 2Sox is no joke! 30-40 mixed swarm removals and cuts outs, (mostly swarm retrievals) by me. And no telling how many by Jeff featured in his video with his RoBo vac. Thanks to you both! To bad the vac debate was not listed in a separate topic heading. Brian suggested this but the ball was already rolling! Being this may be the end of the debate, I salute you both.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 12:56:22 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2021, 11:37:52 am »
PS Don?t forget me 2Sox if you are afforded the opportunity to try the honey robber. I am very curious as the results of its use.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2021, 12:02:29 pm »
PS Don?t forget me 2Sox if you are afforded the opportunity to try the honey robber. I am very curious as the results of its use.

I hope I never have to use it, but I will DEFINITELY keep you posted on that one.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2021, 12:13:21 pm »
PS Don?t forget me 2Sox if you are afforded the opportunity to try the honey robber. I am very curious as the results of its use.

I hope I never have to use it, but I will DEFINITELY keep you posted on that one.

 :happy:
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

anything