BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER > REQUEENING & RAISING NEW QUEENS

New package, new queen, new supercedure cell

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So-apiary:
Hey y'all!

I'm a totally green beek, just installed my first package a couple weeks ago.  It's not a lot of bees, but they're building comb and storing nectar/sugar water, and the queen has definitely been laying.  Things seem to be off to a good start despite starting with empty frames and some sorta chilly weather for a few days during the past two weeks. My concern is that I found a supercedure cell during my inspection today, and I don't really know what to make of it.

There's only a little bit of larva, but I'm thinking that's to be expected, given the weather, the fact that the bees had to start from scratch, and the fact that there aren't many of them to care for a big bunch of brood yet. But why did they try to supercede? And did I do the right thing by removing the supercedure cell? I'm hoping the answer is that they're a little stressed at the moment, and things will be okay once they've had a chance to build up their numbers and collect more resources. I've been checking on them more frequently than I plan to in the future, and I know that stresses them too, but I'm glad I took a look today and saw that capped queen cell.

What should I do if I find another queen cell when I inspect again? If they're bent on replacing the queen, I'd rather purchase one of those fancy, mite tolerant ones than to let them raise their own.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Cindy

The15thMember:
Hi there, Cindy.  :happy:  It's not uncommon for packages to attempt a supersedure.  To make up the package, the beekeeper you bought it from took a queen and put her in a box with a bunch of bees from another hive or even several other hives.  The bees don't have any allegiance to this queen and will often prefer to raise a new one as soon as possible.  If this is the case, I don't think it's an issue that you removed the queen cell.  However, the risk is that the bees know something that you don't.  Perhaps the queen is injured or failing, and the bees are taking steps to rectify the situation.  If this is the case and the queen stops laying, the bees could become "hopelessly queenless" and be left without a larva the proper age to make into a queen.  However, if you are already inclined to purchase a queen, then you may not care if this happens.

My question is, when you say this colony has only a little bit of brood, how much is that exactly?  How many frames of bees do you have, and how many of brood?  Is the queen's laying pattern good?  How frequently have you been checking them?  Because workers will sometimes blame new queens for the intrusions and disruptions caused by a beekeeper.  The answers to these questions will help in figuring out if there is something wrong with the queen, or if the bees simply don't like her.         

So-apiary:
Hi 15th,

Thanks for your reply! I've definitely been intrusive over the past two weeks, but every reason I've had for doing that has been resolved now, except I think I need to look again in about five days to see if they've made another queen cell. I definitely don't want them making their own right now, since I have no idea if they're any better or worse genetically than the current queen. So I want to keep an eye on that situation, but I can at least give them five days of peace between intrusions.

The bees have eight frames available to them and have gotten five of them roughly half filled with comb. So not a lot of nursery or pantry space yet, and only enough adult bees to cover those half-filled frames. It looks like the brood is on two of the frames, both sides of each.  Rather than laying a circle of brood in the middle, the queen has been going back and forth making rows up to a couple inches or so from the edges of the comb all around.  If any of the frames were completely filled with comb, I'd think it looked like a decent laying pattern, but there's just not enough comb there to really tell much yet.

Do you think the bees will accept her any better as time goes on and the colony gets better established? Do you think I'd be better off requeening, one way or another?  Or should I give this queen a chance to show what she can do, given enough time, space, and resources?  If my bees won't take to a queen from another bloodline, do I have any other options besides letting them raise their own queen?  Anything I can do (besides giving the bees some peace and quiet, which is already the plan) to help them accept the current queen?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  Please feel free to answer any questions I didn't know I needed to ask about this. :)

Cindy

So-apiary:
Oops, that was a brain cramp about the genetics.  Any queen they raise right now would be the queen's genetics and whatever drones she mated with before I even got her.  They can't raise one of their own bloodline because they don't have a queen from their bloodline. DUH!

So that being the case, why did they make a queen cell with almost the first egg she laid? 

Cindy

The15thMember:

--- Quote from: So-apiary on May 22, 2021, 11:24:04 am ---Oops, that was a brain cramp about the genetics.  Any queen they raise right now would be the queen's genetics and whatever drones she mated with before I even got her.  They can't raise one of their own bloodline because they don't have a queen from their bloodline. DUH!

So that being the case, why did they make a queen cell with almost the first egg she laid? 

Cindy

--- End quote ---
It's all good!  I'm not really sure from a genetic perspective why or if it would be preferable to the workers to raise a new queen.  I think it may be about the fact that the colony is slow to build from a package, and the bees may just assume that it's the queen's fault, since a spring colony and even a swarm will progress faster than a package. 


--- Quote from: So-apiary on May 21, 2021, 08:50:02 pm ---The bees have eight frames available to them and have gotten five of them roughly half filled with comb. So not a lot of nursery or pantry space yet, and only enough adult bees to cover those half-filled frames. It looks like the brood is on two of the frames, both sides of each.  Rather than laying a circle of brood in the middle, the queen has been going back and forth making rows up to a couple inches or so from the edges of the comb all around.  If any of the frames were completely filled with comb, I'd think it looked like a decent laying pattern, but there's just not enough comb there to really tell much yet.

--- End quote ---
That sounds pretty good for a package, although I've only done packages once.  As long as the queen's laying pattern is tight, i.e. she's not skipping cells, I wouldn't be too concerned about her. 


--- Quote from: So-apiary on May 21, 2021, 08:50:02 pm ---Thanks for your reply! I've definitely been intrusive over the past two weeks, but every reason I've had for doing that has been resolved now, except I think I need to look again in about five days to see if they've made another queen cell. I definitely don't want them making their own right now, since I have no idea if they're any better or worse genetically than the current queen. So I want to keep an eye on that situation, but I can at least give them five days of peace between intrusions.

--- End quote ---
 
Every five days is very frequent to check on a new colony.  Queen larvae are usually capped 11 days after the egg was laid, so I don't see any reason to check them more than once every week to ten days.  If you have been checking on them more than once a week, I'm betting they are taking issue with your disruptions. 


--- Quote from: So-apiary on May 21, 2021, 08:50:02 pm ---
Do you think the bees will accept her any better as time goes on and the colony gets better established? Do you think I'd be better off requeening, one way or another?  Or should I give this queen a chance to show what she can do, given enough time, space, and resources?  If my bees won't take to a queen from another bloodline, do I have any other options besides letting them raise their own queen?  Anything I can do (besides giving the bees some peace and quiet, which is already the plan) to help them accept the current queen?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  Please feel free to answer any questions I didn't know I needed to ask about this. :)

--- End quote ---

As far as what you should do, I think that's your preference.  I have never purchased queens, so I can't offer any specific advice to that (I always just let bees requeen themselves with eggs from a better hive when I don't like what I'm seeing), but if you are fairly certain you aren't happy with their genetics already, and you'd like to purchase a replacement and requeen them, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  You could also continue to remove queen cells in the hopes they'll accept their current queen at some point, which they may.  Alternatively, you could let them raise a new queen and see how she turns out, you never know what genes your local drones are carrying.  You haven't really had enough time to see the quality of the queen you have, so I don't see any reason to believe a daughter of hers would be worse than her.  But if you don't feel like the stock you purchased will be successful in your situation, requeening with better genetics is always a good option.  Where did you get your bees?  Were they from a local supplier?   

 
 

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