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Author Topic: Concrete and beetles???  (Read 4335 times)

Offline BAHBEEs

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Concrete and beetles???
« on: January 15, 2020, 12:19:18 pm »
Concrete musings...

So, here is the question. 

Does anyone know if placing hive on concrete away form any soil  has any effect at all on hive beetle populations seen in a hive?

Barry
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Offline paus

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 12:46:31 pm »
I heard one of the noted PHD speakers at Texas state bee convention say that he walked into the lab building one AM and there were SHB Larva crawling all over the building. The conclusion that hit me.      A landing strip is not big enough to stop SHB larva.
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Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 12:57:43 pm »
Pretty much what I am hearing.

Man I hate em!
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 01:21:37 pm »
I've no personal knowledge - but I read (somewhere - probably here, a couple yrs ago) that SHB larvae could easily cross 20'+ of concrete to get to earth they could dive into.

The larvae are [always] coming from a hive, and headed to dirt - as I understand it.

I see very few SHB, but I discovered last year that they are a real problem in my area (for others). I attribute my lack of them for 5 years now (fingers crossed), to my chickens that run free most days. I read that chickens can smell the larvae from a good distance and target them quickly. ... buuut I didn't ask the chickens if it true - I just read it somewhere.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 01:29:53 pm »
Quote from: paus on January 15, 2020, 12:46:31 pm
I heard one of the noted PHD speakers at Texas state bee convention say that he walked into the lab building one AM and there were SHB Larva crawling all over the building. The conclusion that hit me.      A landing strip is not big enough to stop SHB larva.

Quote from: BAHBEEs on January 15, 2020, 12:57:43 pm
Pretty much what I am hearing.

Man I hate em!

I hate em too. I heard the same thing from Dr Jamie Ellis who was researching them at the University of Florida. Since the larva were crawling throughout the night; (now these are not his words or theory but mine), there is zero chance that the heat of the day and hot concrete will kill them as long as they can make it to soil before the sun does its job on them?  Now my theory may be wrong? They may be able to withstand the hot concrete? They are tough for sure. Dr Ellis also stated that they can fly miles to reach a beehive, I cannot remember how far he said but I have read somewhere since, that they can fly 7 miles to reach our hives, some say further. A fierce competitor for sure. Have you had problems with them Barry?
Phillip
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 01:52:46 pm by Ben Framed »
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Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2020, 02:43:34 pm »
The beetle larvae usually exit the hive at night, and this protects them from chickens and birds.  They crawl long distances to go to earth, but I have been told by beekeepers that crawling more than 20 feet on hot concrete will kill some of the larvae before they reach the edge.  I have seen this happen when shaking out comb from deadouts.

I have read that 80% of beetle larvae that drop onto earth from the hive will pupate within 4 feet of the hive.  I have wondered if there is a tendency to crawl in a particular direction from the hive or if it is just a random dispersal.  I know that putting a board down in front of the entrance in summer to keep grass down attracts both adults and larvae to the ground under the board.  This is due to the ground under the board being moist compared to the surrounding area.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2020, 03:39:49 pm »
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on January 15, 2020, 02:43:34 pm
The beetle larvae usually exit the hive at night, and this protects them from chickens and birds.  They crawl long distances to go to earth, but I have been told by beekeepers that crawling more than 20 feet on hot concrete will kill some of the larvae before they reach the edge.  I have seen this happen when shaking out comb from deadouts.

I have read that 80% of beetle larvae that drop onto earth from the hive will pupate within 4 feet of the hive.  I have wondered if there is a tendency to crawl in a particular direction from the hive or if it is just a random dispersal.  I know that putting a board down in front of the entrance in summer to keep grass down attracts both adults and larvae to the ground under the board.  This is due to the ground under the board being moist compared to the surrounding area.

Makes perfect sense. Good post AR
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 03:46:02 pm »
Thinking about it,  maybe the chickens scratch and dig until they find the larva unless the larva burrow to deep?  The chickens only scratch the surface to a certain extent.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2020, 04:48:50 pm »
Ben,

Yes I do see Hive beetles.  Less this year than last (I learned that any void too small for a bee becomes a haven for beetles...and closed those up) but I did have one hive I took over from someone else that left the hive.  when I opened it up...hive beetles or wax moths or both.  The culprits where gone as well, leaving only some webbing and a lot of larvae. I saw a few moths around that hive as well so I am not sure which actually got it.

I may have to get back into chickens...

Barry
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2020, 06:53:08 pm »
Quote from: BAHBEEs on January 28, 2020, 04:48:50 pm
Ben,

Yes I do see Hive beetles.  Less this year than last (I learned that any void too small for a bee becomes a haven for beetles...and closed those up) but I did have one hive I took over from someone else that left the hive.  when I opened it up...hive beetles or wax moths or both.  The culprits where gone as well, leaving only some webbing and a lot of larvae. I saw a few moths around that hive as well so I am not sure which actually got it.

I may have to get back into chickens...

Barry

Thanks Barry, I may be wrong but I am almost positive that when you see webbing, and worms it is usually wax moths. Not to say you may very well have experienced both. I do not want to discourage the use of chickens, They are a win, win, win situation. Meat, eggs and hopefully a few less SHB. lol .  Wishing you the best.
Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2020, 07:19:49 pm »
I've heard , at first look their hard to tell the difference, don't know personally. I've only seen frames destroyed by moths. I've read everything about shb that I can, and have watched videos of Dr. Ellis telling of larvae crawling hundreds of yards to soil. Have read about salt, dimotacius earth, oyster shells ground up. But what I've not heard is acidity in soil or lack of acid. The reason I bring this up, here in the sand hills of N.C. with all the pine trees , great for azalea an blueberries, terrible for a vegetable garden. But here I've not seen a big threat of shb, not saying it can't. Just wondering if acidity can have a effect ?
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2020, 07:53:51 pm »
Quote from: CoolBees on January 15, 2020, 01:21:37 pm
I've no personal knowledge - but I read (somewhere - probably here, a couple yrs ago) that SHB larvae could easily cross 20'+ of concrete to get to earth they could dive into.

The larvae are [always] coming from a hive, and headed to dirt - as I understand it.

I see very few SHB, but I discovered last year that they are a real problem in my area (for others). I attribute my lack of them for 5 years now (fingers crossed), to my chickens that run free most days. I read that chickens can smell the larvae from a good distance and target them quickly. ... buuut I didn't ask the chickens if it true - I just read it somewhere.

Cool, please read.

That is interesting, Mr. Cool that you don?t have worries with small hive beetle.  I thought you had a warm environment, perfect for the small hive beetle.  Do me a big favor.  Talk with other beeks in your area and determine if lack of beetles is unique to your area or just your apiary.  If absence of beetles is area wide, that would prove most interesting and we could start asking why?  Maybe you have a beetle eating critter some where, maybe like the natural nematodes or whatever.

Van
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2020, 07:59:36 pm »
Very good reasoning Mr Van. Mikey also. Good post each of you.
Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2020, 08:06:39 pm »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on January 28, 2020, 07:53:51 pm


Cool, please read.

That is interesting, Mr. Cool that you don?t have worries with small hive beetle.  I thought you had a warm environment, perfect for the small hive beetle.  Do me a big favor.  Talk with other beeks in your area and determine if lack of beetles is unique to your area or just your apiary.  If absence of beetles is area wide, that would prove most interesting and we could start asking why?  Maybe you have a beetle eating critter some where, maybe like the natural nematodes or whatever.

Van

I'll do that Van. I distantly know several Beeks within 20 miles of me. The closest one is a commercial operation about 2.5 miles away. He's nice to talk to. I'll stop by his place and ask him one of these days - if he has or has had problems with SHB's.

I've heard 2nd hand (at the farm stores, at nurseries, from friends, etc), that many hives have been lost to them, in the local area. Personally - I see about 4 beetles a year. ... but that doesn't mean I won't have a problem someday.
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Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2020, 08:18:32 pm »
Cool , what is acidity in your soil ?
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Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2020, 08:22:29 pm »
Van, Ben same question.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2020, 11:23:27 pm »
Quote from: MikeyN.C. on January 28, 2020, 08:22:29 pm
Van, Ben same question.

Mikey, I will confess I do not know but I do know SHB thrive in my area.  I had some PH strips. I will see if I can find them and check.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 10:24:34 am »
Not sure on pH, but N. Alabama and N Georgia are both largely fat heavy red to orange clays.

Right now my yard would eat a truck...in late august you almost cant drill a hole in the ground.
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 01:22:22 pm »
Quote from: MikeyN.C. on January 28, 2020, 08:18:32 pm
Cool , what is acidity in your soil ?

I don't know. I've never tested it.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 06:33:31 pm »


Well water is the far right strip, say 6.9 pH,  the middle color patch on each strip is the indicator.  Yellow is acidic, blue is alkaline.  The two strips on the left are the dirt, soil.
I have large numbers of small hive beetles and must constantly monitor, which in some cases means leave alone the hive, don?t open.,,, sometimes.
Soil in my apiary is below 6.0 pH, the two strips left.  My soil in the apiary, N. Arkansas is very acidic.

Van
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 08:05:01 pm by van from Arkansas »
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2020, 07:12:53 pm »
Boom !!!
I'm finally getting some answers . Thanks everyone. I'm just a mechanic , not a biologist, chemists.  I believe that there is other circumstance that can effect. Certain type
Of insects and their breeding. Point I've grown gardens for years , I moved 45 miles 8 years ago , never had a problem growing squash- zucchini, now I can't. Not because of soil , but because of insects that thrive in certain conditions.
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Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2020, 07:52:55 pm »
Just thinking maybe their is away with ground control other than nematodes. ?  Just a thought
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2020, 05:59:02 pm »
Mickey: I am just a mechanic.  Reply number 20.  Just a mechanic????  Now a days it take a genesis to work on an automobile.  Got to be a computer wiz kid and good with tools to understand these engines.

Now a days: I look under a hood of a car/truck and I am lucky if I can find the battery.  I have no idea what I am looking at when I raise the hood.  I used to work on my own vehicle: points plugs, condenser, easy back in the good ol days.

Now chemistry is easy compared to looking under the hood of a car.  But being a mechanic takes smarts, computer skills, problem solving, analytics, way way to complex for me.   Now a days: Chemistry is easy compared to being a mechanic!!

Just a mechanic you say,,,, like that is an easy thing.  I?ll take easy chemistry any day compared to these complicated ding dang automobile engines that I can?t make heads or tails of.  A mechanic is hard, chemistry is easy.  Mickey,,,, friend,,,, you got it backwards.  ?I am just a mechanic,?you are a most humble fella!!  Health to your bees!!

Van

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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2020, 06:17:03 pm »
Van , thanks for thoughts. Yes auto and diesels and boats. Now full time inboard,outboards and jet skis.
Electronics are pretty much (not always) predictable. When it comes to bee's with certain situations especially with different climate conditions are unpredictable.
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Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2020, 06:24:35 pm »
And another thought, I can hook computer to a motor and get a pretty much possible cause of fault. I can't do that with bee's :grin:
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2020, 06:55:32 pm »
Mr. Mickey, i was basically born into honey bees although I did not acquire my own hive until I was 13 years of age in the 1960s.  Today, My bees are just out my back door.  So what is my point?  I can walk by my hives and tell if there is an issue.  Not saying this absolute, I do get caught by surprise now and then.

My bees appear to recognize me.  I can?t figure this out as the bees have such a short life span, how can they know me?  My scientific mind says impossible.  But for certain, I am usually approached by no less than eight,8, bees that greet me when I walk my apiary which is every nice day, multiple times a day.  I can tell if they need something by persistent actions or lack thereof.  My scientific mind says impossible.  However, I am telling you what I see.  Not absolute mind you, but the bees talk, if ya listen.  They definitely communicate.
Health to your bees,

Van
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2020, 08:12:33 pm »
Yes sir, they know me to. I wear shorts , flip flops, and short shirt . ball cap.  But always use safety clear glasses
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Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2020, 05:45:56 pm »
I don't see any problem scientifically with them recognizing you.  A short life span may seem like a huge limiter, but note squid and octopus, both are quite short lived...but also quite intelligent.  We know that some birds can recognize different people, and give different calls to indicate if that person is a threat or not (so can critters like black footed ferrets).

Just because a hive mind may accomplish its "thinking" differently than us singular minded beasts, I find it not surprising that they can accomplish some of the same goals.

I will even go as far as to say they have emotions...maybe not the individual...but the hive itself.  they are grouchy some days, happy others. 

I am just not one that thinks Humans are all that special in these ways.  We may be farther developed in some ways, but that is all it is.

All creatures know pain, and all creatures know pleasure.  Without these two drives, life would fail.   

So might they be aware of the guy who takes care of them?  Absolutely!

Barry
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Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Concrete and beetles???
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2020, 06:40:13 pm »
I believe alot has to do with human temperament. When I first started ,beek friend would rush through 10-12 hives and not be slow but fast doing inspections. By the time we got finished, u had to leave apiary, go to front yard and still got stung.
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