Author Topic: Splitting a Hot Hive Questions (Read 7047 times)

rockink · « **on:** June 01, 2018, 10:41:06 pm »

Hello, I'm a new beek located in central missouri. Had my hives for about a month now. I have been reading and watching videos like crazy to understand and be a good beekeeper.

I was given 2 hives from my neighbors wife when he suddenly past away last year. I found a local mentor and he has helped me a ton however I want to see what others are thinking.

Hive "left" is a small weak docile colony. Hive "middle" was walk away split exactly 1 week ago due to #1 there are TONS of bees and #2 they were pretty aggressive. We basically made sure there was brood and honey in 2 deep boxes and then split the one hive in to two. When splitting we found brace comb everywhere.

I let them settle until Tuesday of this week. The first thing I noticed is aggressive behavior has gotten worse. I don't freak out and I do my best to move slow and gentle, however the minute I got my hive tool or hands near the hive I was immediately attacked by hundreds of bees. I was going to try and do an inspection however they attack so aggressively that it's intimidating.

I spoke with my mentor and he is suggestion to walk away split them again.. There are just sooooo many bees in both colonies this makes sense to me. I have extra hive bodies that I have made and have got from my neighbor so financially speaking the walk away split seems like the answer for me.

Thanks!

iddee · « **Reply #1 on:** June 01, 2018, 10:50:28 pm »

First, you say nothing about eggs or small larva. They can't make a queen out of larva more than 3 days old.
Secondly, you don't say how much smoke you used. Too much or too little smoke can make them mean.

Now, smoke them at the entrance lightly, wait a couple minutes, smoke lightly again, then remove the lid and smoke the top of the frames lightly. Check the boxes for eggs. One should have eggs, the other should have capped queen cells.

Report back what you find tomorrow and maybe then we can help.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 01, 2018, 11:09:03 pm »

What Iddee said but when you smoke them, with good heavy smoke, puff 3 to 4 puts into the entrance and then wait 10 minutes then do it again and wait 30 seconds, then enter the hive. This puts the bees in swarm mode and really calms them down.
I suspect you are using heavy leather gloves and there are lots of stingers in them. The sting pheromones will trigger aggressive behavior.
Let us know what happens.
Jim

rockink · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2018, 11:37:11 pm »

Thanks for the replies!

So yes I do remember my mentor mentioning the eggs and larva and royal jelly etc.. So I'm sure the proper frames were put in the splits.

I have tried different combinations of smoke light smoke, heavy smoke. doesn't seem to phase them until I touch a frame and then they go crazy.

I have not tried the 10min method. Yes, my gloves had TON's of stingers in them.. I have new gloves on the way as I tried ones I had and it created a gap(big lesson learned there). I have a really good suit that kept me safe. However after all of the chaos yesterday I washed everything to make sure my suit is pheromones free.. :)

Honestly these 2 hives have me so gun shy that I probably won't do anything until my mentor comes the week of the 11th.

cao · « **Reply #4 on:** June 02, 2018, 01:21:44 am »

Welcome.

I feel your pain with the aggressive hive. I had on that was pretty mean and was packed with bees this year. Although my "mean" sounds pretty tame compared to yours. If I have more than one bee bumping into my veil or if they won't allow me to pull frames without my hands being attacked and posssibly stung, something will be done. By the way I don't wear gloves and I'm usually in t-shirt and shorts so I don't tolerate bad behavior in my bees.

Your splits are now single 10 frame deeps. Correct? If they are full of bees, I would add another box to them both. I did this with my hive. When I went back a week later to inspect and split again, I first pulled that extra box off. That removed a lot of bees. You could even cover that box to prevent them from flying while you check the bottom box. I could then see more of what was going on in the bottom box. In my case, I split them a couple more times(nucs).

Best of luck getting them calmed down.

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #5 on:** June 02, 2018, 06:29:31 am »

Don't wear any deodorant or aftershave etc,
If you wash your suit and gloves don't use scented detergent.
May not help but Jim has some good smoke advice.
Cao is right to reduce bees you have to deal with, but I would get some one to help to find queen and bump her off, then take out open brood and put into another hive and add open brood ( shake bees off so you don't accidently transfer the queen)from a quiet hive so the new queen they form may have progeny that are more friendly.

iddee · « **Reply #6 on:** June 02, 2018, 07:55:56 am »

Looking the week of the 11th will tell you nothing. This weekend you should have capped queen cells in one and eggs in the other. On the 11th, you will have eggs in one and the other will look queenless. No eggs, no larva, and "hopefully" a virgin queen that hasn't started laying.

You need to look for queen cells this weekend.

Acebird · « **Reply #7 on:** June 02, 2018, 09:12:21 am »

I am not sure a walk away is the thing to do for hot hives. Dividing the hive with the intent on squishing the queen is something else.
It is tough for a newbie to start off with a hot hive. Splitting might make it worse because then you will end up with multiple hives that are hot. I think you and your mentor should have left the hive alone until you had a couple of gentle queens ready to go. Then start dividing the hive. Install one of the queens in the queenless side and divide the queen right hive again. With each successive divide the queenless sides can be added together until you can get the queen right side small enough to find the queen and pinch her. This could be done all in one step taking every box separately away from the parent hive location.
Pitfall: If the parent hive genetics has AHB getting the queens acceptance might not go so well. My solution to that for a newbie would be soapy water.

iddee · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2018, 09:23:45 am »

Ace, what you don't seem to understand is, meaness is normally carried by drones. A mean hive may have a genetically docile queen laying eggs from mean drones. Her offspring queens may mate with docile drones and be very gentle.
I think rockink is doing fine thus far, but needs to check for cells now.

Acebird · « **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2018, 09:35:23 am »

Quote from: iddee on June 02, 2018, 09:23:45 am

meaness is normally carried by drones.

Where did you come up with that one? I am sure my wife will agree but I don't.
If the trait was exclusive to drones the temperament of a hive would come and go.

iddee · « **Reply #10 on:** June 02, 2018, 09:39:03 am »

The temperament of a hive does come and go with each supercedure. Why do you think a normally docile hive becomes mean?

Acebird · « **Reply #11 on:** June 02, 2018, 10:10:14 am »

Queen change, however it happens.

iddee · « **Reply #12 on:** June 02, 2018, 10:17:45 am »

Correct. Queen change equals different drones fertilizing.

rockink · « **Reply #13 on:** June 02, 2018, 12:33:46 pm »

So I'm out of town this weekend and unable to look in the hives. Ultimately my goal is to get the hives to a manageable size. I want to enjoy my hives and not dread going to work them. I want to be a good beek but starting with hot bees makes me want to bath them all with soapy water. I'm tired of being stung and just yesterday my neighbor called and she got stung and the kid mowing the lawn was nailed.

Iddee - what am I losing by not getting in there sooner than the 11th? If i wait, won't the end of the story be the same regardless if i open it or not?

Cao - we actually split in to 1 deep and 1 medium super for each and they both appear to have outgrown them immediately.

Oldbeavo - i will try the no deodorant for sure.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

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beepro · « **Reply #14 on:** June 02, 2018, 02:22:00 pm »

In my first season, same in your situation, I bought 2 mean hives that nobody want. They were the last 2. One deep and 1 double deep. I had to move them in the farm away from the neighbors. No knowing I had put them on top of an ant hill. So the ants got them all. I collected the equipment and started all over again with gentle genetic bees. Gentle bees are out there.

Then last summer I got one mean hive from a big operation queen producer. This company I will not buy queen from again. I ended up taking the 4 frames nuc to the open grass field after reducing it to manageable size using the following method. The bees also stung my new neighbor and his guess's small child in a backyard birthday party that summer. I learned that some bees are more sensitive than others especially the bees carrying the AHB genes. Even when down to 4 frames that raised a new daughter queen that summer they are still mean and sensitive bees.

When I retrieved this nuc hive in the early Autumn it was defending itself against an ant colony where I laid the hive on the ground under a big mulberry tree. Even the homeless people not dare to live under this tree. I felt sorry for my action not knowing that it will affect the homeless people.

My recommendation to you is to completely get rid of this hive by reducing the queen to 2 frames all by itself in a new location if you don't want to kill her. Take all her cap broods without the attaching bees to the gentle hives, distribute the brood frames evenly. Brush the attaching bees off into 5 drawn comb frames in the original location and put a new gentle mated queen there cage her first. This hive will start with eggs from the gentle queen. So no cap broods just the foragers and the nurse bees from the frames you removed to the other hives. The aggression will stop because they are too busy tending to the new larvae.

So, 1) Put the queen in 2 frames at another location and 2) take the cap broods to the gentle hives without the attaching bees. This is how I would clean up an aggressive hive. Found out that this was the most effective and fastest way to do it. You have to wear a full suit to avoid the stingers. To make the process easier, you can move the other boxes to a nearby location that way there won't be that many boxes and aggressive bees to deal with-- divide and conquer. Ask your mentor is this process is doable in your location so that the neighbors will not get sting. Tell them to go inside until this process is completed.

iddee · « **Reply #15 on:** June 02, 2018, 03:27:43 pm »

Beepro, your method will work............... As long as your bank account is larger than Warren Buffet's or Bill Gate's. My method will work if you want to play with bees for free.

Rockink, the new queen will emerge and the bees will remove her cell approx. June 7th. The virgin will mate and begin laying approx. June 21. Between those times, your split will look queenless, but may not be.

For the queenrite half, the time won't make any difference.

rockink · « **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2018, 05:20:34 pm »

Okay that makes sense! So if i find one hive queenright and one with queen cells what are your suggestions from there? I'll plan on going in Tuesday. I will just gear up with layers.

I would like to do as much moving and shifting as possible all at once.

Luckily I have access to a few complete hives (cover, deep and bottom).

Thanks,
RockinK

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beepro · « **Reply #17 on:** June 02, 2018, 08:16:51 pm »

"....and one with queen cells what are your suggestions from there?"

I say not to keep aggressive genetics at all. Brush off the bees and donate the QCs frame to your
gentle queen right hive. They know what to do with these QCs,.

You can also donate eggs/young larvae frame from your gentle hive into the splits that have the aggressive
bees to see if they will make the gentle QCs. If they do then you can keep them until the virgin is mated.

iddee · « **Reply #18 on:** June 02, 2018, 08:49:51 pm »

WOW. I don't know where beepro gets all his ideas, but I won't be following many of them.

Rockink, if there are more than one frame with capped queen cells, and you can find the queen in the other half, kill her and add a frame with queen cells in that half. That leaves you with two halves with new queens emerging and "hopefully" mating with gentle drones and giving you two gentle hives. The broodless time will also reduce the numbers in each hive, which will help to gentle them down.

Alternatively, only one frame has queen cells. Gently cut one or two cells and move them to a frame in the queenrite half after dispatching her.

Alternatively, if you can't find her, wait until the requeened half has brood, then repeat the whole procedure with another split.

beepro · « **Reply #19 on:** June 02, 2018, 09:29:01 pm »

My idea is from the experience of keeping aggressive bees from last summer and in my first season. Let's say that your area has the aggressive bee genetics and you keep the split QCs to requeen (from this aggressive queen.) Then you will have the virgin (from the aggressive hive) and the drones of unknown origin from the local DCAs (which might carry the aggressive genes) mated together. This will make the hive aggressive again.

My method is to eliminate the aggressive QCs by replacing it with the gentle QCs from the
gentle hive. Now you will have a gentle virgin coming from the gentle hive mated with whatever drones are out there in the DCAs. This way at least 50% of the genes will come from the gentle virgin queen. A method that the bee farmers in S. Am. use to not have a full hive of AHB down there. I've used this method before trying to conquer an aggressive hive that I suspect carry the AHB genetics last summer. The hive is still aggressive enough to defend themselves from the ants but not enough to deter me from going in. In the end I did not keep this daughter queen. Or better yet find a known gentle mated queen to requeen all your splits. I'm sure your mentor can help you in this area.