Splitting Questions

[PhilK]

We've done some brood inspections and seen lots of drone brood, some little queen cups, and plenty of fresh white wax so I think swarms are coming up soon. We're planning on splitting our hives to prevent swarming (like an artificial swarm), keeping some nucs for ourselves and selling some. We've only split once before so I am a bit unsure on the process.

Would you recommend splitting into nucs, or splitting into a 10 frame hive? Obviously we remove the old queen with the split and allow the bees left behind to raise a new one. Often they will create more than one queen cell, so is there a chance the hive will swarm anyway with more than one queen hatching out?

Thanks
Phil

[cao]

Would you recommend splitting into nucs, or splitting into a 10 frame hive?

It would depend on how much of an increase you want to make.  If you just want to keep them from swarming and want to get a honey harvest, I would just split them in half.  If you are want to maximize your increase, I like to remove the queen with a couple of frames of food and put them in a nuc to build up to a full hive by the end of the year.  Then check the original hive in a week for capped queen cells.  I put each frame with at least one queen cell in a separate nuc(leaving at least one queen cell in original hive).  Then add a frame or two of honey/pollen in each nuc.  Last year I was able to turn one overwintered strong hive into 10(the original hive, the original split with the old queen, and 8 nucs).

[eltalia]

Phil, you're in Brissy proper, right?
Split into a 10fr Lang and use a space block - make one from foam if needed.
Start with minimum of 6 frames and keep an eye on them as flows come in.
Bee SHB aware, always.
These things tend to get away from you when it warms up, you will need to
have gear ready to go into the box.

Cheers.

Bill

[PhilK]

Thanks for the replies - good idea cao. I think we'll split a bunch in half then make some nucs for sale as well!

[PhilK]

If I just want to split the hive in half, will it be a concern that the queenless half will have many queen cells? Will that make them swarm?

[PhilK]

Sorry to bug again. Split the hive this morning. Queen and 5 frames moved into a 10 frame box with the other frames being stickies. Shook a bunch of nurse bees and super bees in as well - hopefully they'll stay put.

When should I check back for QCs in the original hive? Is there a time when QCs should not be disturbed?

Thanks
Phil

[cao]

I usually check a week later.  By then they should be capped or very close.  A week later, they should be hatching.  I usually give the newly hatched queen a couple of weeks undisturbed to mate and start laying.

I think a couple days around day 10 the QC shouldn't be disturbed(don't quote me on that).

[eltalia]

I butted out Phil as these words from <cao> are pivot point important;
"It would depend on how much of an increase you want to make."
Therein lies decisions only an advanced BK would tackle.

Now I read your inclusion of "stickies" in splitting the queen-right sector away from
their known broodchamber I have to ask, did you remove one split from the yard?
Or something else?
Have you installed a queen-restrictor to the queen-right split away box entrance?

Cheers.

Bill

[Acebird]

If I just want to split the hive in half, will it be a concern that the queenless half will have many queen cells? Will that make them swarm?

Positively no.  The queenless half will not swarm.  Depending on a whole bunch of things the queen right side could still swarm.  So two weeks to a month later I split that hive again.  With two splits it insures that you have an increase and the swarming urge is overcome.  My overwintered hives are 4 - 5 medium boxes 8 frame (around two deeps).  Starting with hives of this size the queen right side of the splits grow to 7-8 boxes so I usually harvest two medium boxes from a hive I split twice.  If the queenless side succeeds in getting a mated queen back it usually produces one box.  I don't know how strong and long your flows are so I don't know if you can get the same results.  You will have to speak with locals about flows.

[gww]

Ace
I did a teronove split and I left all the queen cells in the part with the old bees.  That hive did swarm twice in two days.  I am thinking it might be prudent on the queenless side to cull the queen cells down to just one or two that are close to each other rather then do like I did and just leave them all.  I am not as confident that the queenless side will not swarm as the virgins hatch.

I am a newer bee keeper then you and so do not intend this to be advice for the op but just pointing out one thing that happened to me and my view of what might have helped stop the swarms.  In the end culling may have just left me with a queenless hive when they swarmed anyway.  My split was differrent then just splitting a hive in half.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Hold the phone ... if there were queen cells prior to splitting then that means the original hive already decided to swarm and in that case it will swarm.  I took "queen cells" as emergency queens as a result of being queenless and in this case it will not swarm.

[gww]

Ace
And yes, in my case the hive had decided and maby even swarmed before I did the teronov split.  I did not change thier mind dang it.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Ace
And yes, in my case the hive had decided and maby even swarmed before I did the teronov split.  I did not change thier mind dang it.
Cheers
gww

The only way I can think of making them change their mind is to wait 4 days, remove the queen and cull all the cells then add a cell or virgin queen in a couple of days.  In other words queenless with no way of making cells.  I can't say that it would be fool proof.

[gww]

Ace
I may try that some time.  I am just starting and so decided getting four hives from one would be ok on my first year even though my starting goal was to try and make honey.  I have since killed one of the swarms by feeding with a leaky feeder and starting robbing, twice.

I still have three from it if I can get them through winter and at some point I will really have to work on getting better at swarm control.  I am willing to take my set backs and think about how they happened and look for ways like your suggestion that I might try next time.
Thats what I like about these discussions, learning more options.  Now if I can just get my mind to give some recall of said options when they are needed.  That will be the trick.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Now if I can just get my mind to give some recall of said options when they are needed.  That will be the trick.

I can't remember poop.  So if you see or read something that you want to come back to keep a note book and write the date, name of poster and what the interest was.  For example: todays date, "acebird" "splits".  Do an advanced search for "acebird" and "splits" and any post that I used the word "splits" will come up.  Just select the post with that date.  Of course there will be several people that you may want to check with on that topic, so back page back to search replace my name with theirs and run search again.  To me it is kind of fascinating how fast the search finds the posts.

[eltalia]

Loathe as I am to bring contradiction into Phil's thread - I deliberately butted out once  already -
in the interest of the OP's education I quote you, Acebird, to say this is wrong, wholly not so at all;

>Hold the phone ... if there were queen cells prior to splitting then that means the original
>hive already decided to swarm and in that case it will swarm.

Yes, it is the widely touted conclusion by many, and acted on in that belief.
But it aint necessarily so, and certainly isn't the prompt to split as a _swarm control_ method in this
case, and a host of other imminent Spring scenarios.
It is way more likely the colony is looking at supercede. Swarming is more likely after the initial
Spring build, and as temperatures rise above 30C with sufficient foraging available.

IF Phil was not looking at expanding the yard - expansion being what he has implied as a later s
seasonal swarm prevention - then the safest and most productive measure is to fit a queen
restrictor and let the bees sort it out.

Moot now as the colony has been split, albeit in what reads as being a rather agricultural (feral)
manner.... but with luck and fair weather the bees will get over that too.

Cheers.


Bill

[gww]

Bill
What are you talking about when you say queen restrictor.  Are you saying a queen excluder under a super or are you saying a queen excluder at the entrance of the hive?

My bees swarmed way before it got to 30 c this year.  I was not prepared.
Thanks
gww

[eltalia]

@gww

A method to deny the queen leaving tbe hive, ol' mate.

There are products sold that offer "beespaces" for all scenarios but I simply
use a strip of light metal (aluminium for me) held by two scews sitting
within slots at each end. The device doubles as a entrance closer when
shifting a hive body.
Got it?

Picking numbers is always fraught with danger..about all one could bet on is
that if it rains on a 30+C day your bees are not going to swarm... well not
"Down Under" anyways :-))

Cheerio...

Bill

[gww]

Bill
Ok, I got it.  Do you leave a way for drones to leave?

Picking numbers is always fraught with danger..about all one could bet on is
that if it rains on a 30+C day your bees are not going to swarm... well not
"Down Under" anyways :-))

But look out on the first day after the rain that the sun comes out.
Cheers
gww

[PhilK]

Now I read your inclusion of "stickies" in splitting the queen-right sector away from their known broodchamber I have to ask, did you remove one split from the yard? Or something else?
Have you installed a queen-restrictor to the queen-right split away box entrance?

No I left both the original hive and the new split in the same yard, but the new split with the old queen in it is a few metres away from the original hive. Is this going to be a problem? No I didn't fit any queen restrictor.

So two weeks to a month later I split that hive again.  With two splits it insures that you have an increase and the swarming urge is overcome.

This is my issue. We have 14 hives. To stop swarming I need to split all hives twice? That's 56 hives - no way am I ready for that many hives. And I have to do this every year?
My concern is that I don't want my bees to swarm but I don't want to double my numbers every time.. We are looking for a little increase but nothing more than we can manage.

[eltalia]

@PhilK

maaate... no way can I advise you on the step by step route to get to what works. For starters it
is very likely the outcome would be me getting banned from the site. That aint gunna happen by
my hand.

You've already sussed one piece of BS, all by yourself.
What I can say safely is get yourself to a club or under the wing of someone like Jeff Heliot..and
there are a mile more of them down your way. From Brissy you may have some travel time in being
guided but well worth the effort, if avoiding basic error is your way forward.

Sorrrry maaate.

Bill

[eltalia]

"Bill
Ok, I got it.  Do you leave a way for drones to leave?"

These are not permanent fixtures in position, gww, you adjust them up
and down according to the condition/result you choose.

I may be telling you something you know...but so I know you know and
you should know 'cos knowing it is important knowledge.
Big picture there are only two things a human can truly control in the
colony - the queen and the drones. In my book both are of equal importance
as they _are_ the colony.
That control is down to one attribute of the bee - size.

No skite/brag-right in place I can tell you I do not recall the last issue
of a swarm from any colony under my management.
Now : cough:
I disagree with a _lot_ of what has been written here and elsewhere
as to swarming, but I say little to nought on the topic.
Don't "start me up" : chuckles:

Cheerio...


Bill

[PhilK]

eltalia thanks for your input mate but saying you disagree with what is being said, that you haven't had a swarm, and that you won't discuss the topic it really doesn't help.

[eltalia]

eltalia thanks for your input mate but saying you disagree with what is being said, that you haven't had a swarm, and that you won't discuss the topic it really doesn't help.

Phil.. you got what I was prepared to give freely.
Leave it at that without the implication my advice is suspect.
That's exactly how confrontation starts on these things and I aint playing
that game..okay.

Compliments.

Bill

[Acebird]

This is my issue. We have 14 hives. To stop swarming I need to split all hives twice? That's 56 hives - no way am I ready for that many hives. And I have to do this every year?

Not all hives coming through winter will be hell bent on swarming.  Some will just make it and others won't make it at all.  Not all your splits will make it either in most cases.  If you end up with so much success that you have too many hives you can sell, or combine.  You can select which queens you want to keep or which ones you want to sell or make juice out of.  Success gives you many options while failure gives you few.

Dividing by the box or halving hives is not a commercial endeavor if that is your goal.  It is a simple method of curbing swarming and staying sustainable.  Nothing could be easier or require less talent.

[PhilK]

Thanks Ace, appreciate the advice. Our 'winter' here gave us a pretty good honey harvest and the average temperature during the day couldn't have been less than 22 degrees C, so most colonies come out of winter fairly strong. I take your point though, thanks!

[kanga]

Phil, there is a good article written by Des Cannon on Swarm Control and Management

http://www.theabk.com.au/articles/2016/8/4/swarming-control-and-management

Kev

[Acebird]

Philk, just so I am clear, winter is your cooler months?  If so then an American comparison would be southern CA, TX and Florida depending on what your rainfall is.  I don't think BK's in these areas keep QE's on though.

[Acebird]

Phil, there is a good article written by Des Cannon on Swarm Control and Management

I see nothing contradictory to American practice in this article.

[PhilK]

Not looking for a QE debate as we are happy with the production we see with QEs in place and find it very easy for honey extraction - just confused about how not to end up with 70 hives in a couple of years haha!

[Acebird]

just confused about how not to end up with 70 hives in a couple of years haha!

Most beekeepers that want to get to 70 hives would not even consider splitting hives in half especially if they themselves are already 70.  Although the math appears as though it is exponential the reality is much different.

[eltalia]

Not looking for a QE debate as we are happy with the production we see with QEs in place and find it very easy for honey extraction - just confused about how not to end up with 70 hives in a couple of years haha!

G'Evening Phil...
No doubt someone has told you it is possible to max out both honey production _and_ brood
generation using a QE/QX as a manipulative tool. Not at all concerned with either any
longer - I retired - I do the lazyman thing with two Langs for brood and up to two for honey...
.. on my two permanent colonies, largely unattended.
And like you  I do very nicely, thankyeall.

On the "70 hives" thing..?..by the way, for the enthusiaist it's "colonies", or should be.
Commercial operations have "hives". The term makes it less personal and so as a farming
enterprise somewhat easier to do some things a businessman must do with bees to remain
viable.

I digress... as I am wont to do ;-D

Even if you did not matriculate Phil you would be no stranger to consuming studies, so I provide
a link to one paper that could explain why it is you are in no danger of getting to 70 hives, or indeed
losing a colony from a failure to split. I learnt this stuff at school as part of Ag.Study, pure theory
(then) for us as graduation saw the end of the colonies under our study.
Yet that groundwork stood me in good stead for many years prior to the iNetz turning up.

I'd give out a basic plan of management buuuuut I took me dawg to the Vet just last Friday and
came away with a 10day course of antibiotics and a $265 tab for an examination and a wound
wash..... say no more :-)))

Good news is I am putting together a tute on airpaths for some here who are puzzled by the topic
and of which there is little to none wrtten up in docs as I link to here;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647073/


Cheers.


Bill