Queen piping

[Bob Wilson]

If I found sealed queen cells in two of my hives on the 21st of March, should I be hearing queen piping and still see multiple closed queen cells on frames today, thirteen days later? It's only 16 days from egg to emergent queen.

[rothbart]

Let see if I remember the theory. About the time first cell is sealed, old queen swarm.
Since eggs are spaced in time, the second swarm can happen after 10 days if there
is still many bees. In that case bees keep the virgin from killing cells and feed the
third queen trough hole in the cell. Then you hear pipping in two different pitch, since
one is in cell, and one is out angry.

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Wilson, I think it is kinda rare to hear queen piping.  For a newly hatched queen to pip, she must sense a rival.  Most queens hatch and immediately go after unhatched queens still in the cell.  Thus stated is a general rule, there are exceptions.

[BeeMaster2]

Here is a copy of a thread that I posted here several years ago.

Queens piping
If you hear queens piping, that means that the bees are holding the queens in there cells so that they can super swarm (swarm over and over again). When this is allowed to happen, there is a good chance that the original hive will not survive.
Smoke the hive lightly wait 10 minutes, find at least 10 to 15 queen cages,  smoke again lightly, wait 30 seconds and then slowly inspect every frame and carefully open the queen cells. Place the queens in the cages. Go through the entire hive and find every Q cell. Pick the best one and put it back in the hive. If it is a very large hive you can make up a couple of splits. If you disturb the bees too much, they will stop tending to keep the queens in the cells and the queens will all hatch out in mass. If that happens, work fast to catch them all.
Have a small jar of alcohol ready to put any dead queens into. Use the alcohol for swarm traps.
Good luck.
I learned this from my observation hive swarming over and over. I open it on the third swarm and found 10 queens and I missed the one that ended up killing the marked one that I put back in the hive.
Jim Altmiller

[Bob Wilson]

Jim and Van,
I did as you suggested and shook every single frame, in all three of my three of my swarming hives. I removed appr. 30 queen cells.
Most were older, empty cells. Some were sealed, but empty or dead. 5-6 were viable, and the queens started emerging after I put them in a little container I had on hand. They are now in my tiny alcohol bottle.
I left the best cell in each hive, although I worry that they might be empty or duds like some of the sealed ones that I removed. One of the queens chewed her way out and went loose in the hive. However, it was the selected cell I had set aside to keep, so all is well.
How long should I wait before checking for eggs? 2 weeks to harden, mate, and start laying?

[Bob Wilson]

By the way, Jim. The idea of barehanded pinching off the queen cups/cells, while holding the frame with one hand and bees crawling around my fingers, was something I learned standing among your hives on the back of your trailer in your backyard during Beefest 2020. You taught a green newbee not to bee afraid. Thanks. It stood me good stead, shaking off all those frames today.

[van from Arkansas]

👍

[BeeMaster2]

Bob,
Glad it worked out.
I would give them 3 weeks. It takes up to 11 days after they hatch to start laying and then you want to give her time to have a lot of brood before you disturb them.
Jim Altmiller

[TheHoneyPump]

If I found sealed queen cells in two of my hives on the 21st of March, should I be hearing queen piping and still see multiple closed queen cells on frames today, thirteen days later? It's only 16 days from egg to emergent queen.

... Based on my experiences in tracking and purposefully observing many mating nucs and swarm hives ....
There would be piping between days 5 and 7 from when you saw the capped cells. The piping will happen in the morning. Not real early but not late either. Between 8am and 10am. It will be all over before noon and the carcasses tossed out by the evening. To get to see/hear it you need to know it is going to be happening and make a point of being nearby during those times.

After the fight is done, there should be eggs in there 8 to 16 days later.  That is assuming favourable flying weather, that the queen left was not seriously injured in the Battle Royale, and that predators do not catch her during her outings.

Hope that helps!

[Bob Wilson]

Thanks HP. It does.
However, part of the problem is multiple swarms.
When you see swarm cells in a hive, do you shake the frames and cull all but the best QC, or do you let the multiple emerging queens battle it out themselves, knowing that some of the virgin queens might also swarm, and leave a depleted hive.

[TheHoneyPump]

What I do:
If I have good record of the hive and confidence in the timing of the cells, I will go the day of or day before and attempt to catch and cage the emerging queens.  Open the caps with a sharp pick and walk her out directly into a cage.  Stuff at least 9 nearby nurse bees in the cage with her, and a drop of honey/beebread in the cage.
If I am not confident, I will cut out or squash all but two cells that are close to each other on the same frame.  First out will win. Leave undisturbed and come back 2 weeks later to see what happened.

[TheHoneyPump]

...

[Brian MCquilkin]

...

love this extra virgin queens for mating nucs, splits, or anything else you need an extra queen for

[TheHoneyPump]

You can keep those caught virgins caged with attendants banked in a queenrite hive above a queen excluder for up to 10 days and still be successful.  Much beyond 10 it seems their desire to go out to mate diminishes and the rate of flight losses or drone layers goes up sharply.
For best results cage them, bank them, and then try to get them into a mating nuc within a week.

[Brian MCquilkin]

You can keep those caught virgins caged with attendants banked in a queenrite hive above a queen excluder for up to 10 days and still be successful.  Much beyond 10 it seems their desire to go out to mate diminishes and the rate of flight losses or drone layers goes up sharply.
For best results cage them, bank them, and then try to get them into a mating nuc within a week.

Thanks, Hp appreciate the good info.