Side Frame Thickness

[Ben Framed]

 A  Curiosity question. I would like to ask a question reguarding frames  If the official side bar width  is 1/8 inch less that the thickness of a 2X4, which Inhave been told, would it still work if you were to use the 2X4 as is and keep the extra 1/8 inch thickness of the new side bar? I realize you would loose a frame on an eight frame box which will make it a seven frame box , but would the bees still work it without adding bur comb in between? Will the bees make the comb a little "thicker"? Any thoughts ? Thanks, Phillip Hall

[little john]

It would probably work ok if making frames for supers, but not for brood frames.  The important measurement is not the width of the side bars themselves, but of the resulting frame spacing.  If the frame spacing is too wide, then yes - the bees will try (and succeed) in inserting extra comb into that spacing.
LJ

[Bush_84]

Ya I?m with little John. If you have a table saw it?s an easy fix. I?ve built plenty of frames with 2x4s. It?s putzy work and I do prefer buying them. There are times that I?ve just had to bust out a few.

[Acebird]

Even in the super you would not wan't to put frames at a wider spacing unless the frames was previously drawn and straight.  It is a two step process.

[Beeboy01]

1/8 of an inch per frame side means that the foundations will be 1/4 inch farther apart in the hive. 1/4 of an inch will violate the 3/8 inch bee space rule and they will fill the gap with burr comb or double comb. 

[Michael Bush]

Mostly you end up with uneven comb as they will fill the honey at the top of a brood frame out to 1 3/8" thick and the brood will be only 1" thick.  The right thickness is 1 1/4".

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

[eltalia]

Mostly you end up with uneven comb as they will fill the honey at the top of a brood frame out to 1 3/8" thick and the brood will be only 1" thick.  The right thickness is 1 1/4".

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

"fat combs"... luuuurve 'em! 
[smiles]

Bill

[Ben Framed]

Thanks everyone, The reason that I ask is I have the right tools to make them in a streamline production . I have been using 2X4s and sometimes 2x6s. First I Cut the proper length. Run them through the plainer. And shave off the 1/8 inch which puts them at the "official" thickness, before running the complete (block) through the router on each end for the top bar and bottom bar gap. which means, if I were to eliminate the plainer step as previously mentioned, the new frames would be 1/16 thicker on each side of the frame when assembled.  In theory, knowing that when reinserting,  the (official) size frames, We leave a slight gap in between each frame, not totally buted together.(a slight space). I am thinking that I have seen some of the bee supply companies selling a frame spacer that regulates this space evenly throughout the hive, which in theory will probably leave at least 1/16 in between, if not more. I was trying to illuminate the plainer step and was not sure if this would be a huge mistake being the time involved in making frames.  Frames are very time consuming and I certainly  don't want waste time making something that is destin to fail....It is sometimes fun to think outside the box. But now when their is a failure. In some cases a failure is a waste of time 😊😁   Again thanks for your replys. Sincerely, Phillip Hall

[Acebird]

What is the material?  A lot of 2x4 are spruce which would be garbage for a hive.  Only other option would be fir or hemlock.  I recommend pine which you will not find in structural lumber unless it is pressure treated.  How about Trex?  Anybody building frames out of extruded plastic?

[cao]

I've made several hundred frames and they aren't the most fun thing to make.  I would definitely not make them wider than the standard.  After they are in the hives a while the propolis between the frames will widen the spacing some even with the standard width frames.

[moebees]

What is the material?  A lot of 2x4 are spruce which would be garbage for a hive. 

Why?  I have built allot of hives out of spruce.

[little john]

As some of you already know, I make all my own woodwork including frames (except those for sale) from pallet wood - which I've found to vary enormously: much of it is pine of various types, but there's quite often a lot of white wood also to be found.

I wouldn't dream of making pukka Hoffman/foundation-style frames - as there's no way a DIY-er could ever compete with the mass-production methods used to make those - but simple foundationless frames are very easy and cheap enough (almost free) to make.

I've made these with side-bars ranging from 20 to 25mm, and I've never once seen propolis in-between gaps at the sides.  The top gap sometimes sees a little creative waxwork, but never the sides or bottom.  To achieve spacing, I've gradually moved over to using small (3mm x 25mm) woodscrews fixed into the frame top bar, just outside of the comb field, so that the frames can still be pulled directly upwards (with the others still in place) without causing damage to the combs. 

I've found that there are three advantages in using screws for spacing instead of conventional Hoffman side-bars. Firstly, the frame spacing itself can easily be adjusted.  UK Hoffman frames are purchased with a compromise 35mm spacing, whereas I've found that 34mm suits my bees better, and I might even further reduce that a little over time.  The second advantage is that woodscrew heads have a much smaller contact area than that presented by Hoffman side-bars, and I can't remember ever squashing a bee when closing-up frames after an inspection.
Thirdly, there is markedly less propolis to deal with.  In the past, one of the banes of my life has been scraping-off propolis from Hoffman side-bars in the full knowledge that it'll be replaced just as soon as the frame is returned to the hive.  And if you don't scrape it off, then the frame spacing gradually widens, with all the problems that this creates: in short, it's a barmy system - but one that we've all grown up with, and so tend not to object to using.

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

What is the material?  A lot of 2x4 are spruce which would be garbage for a hive.  Only other option would be fir or hemlock.  I recommend pine which you will not find in structural lumber unless it is pressure treated.  How about Trex?  Anybody building frames out of extruded plastic?

Brian,
Maybe I am missing something but most structural lumber here is white pine. White pine is what almost every frame  that I have ever bought is made from.
When I had this house built, I put it in the contract that all support walls were to be made from yellow pine because white pine, spruce and fir is pure termite food down here. The builder did it but he really hated not being able to use white pine.
Jim

[Acebird]

Why?  I have built allot of hives out of spruce.

It rots the fastest.

[Acebird]

Brian,
Maybe I am missing something but most structural lumber here is white pine.

It might be more plentiful in FL.  It is structurally much weaker then spruce and fir.  What is the size of the 2x4 that is made from pine?  There are a lot of old houses up here that were made from pine 2x4's but they are a full 2x4 rough sawn.  Back in the day you used what was close by.  Today most lumber comes from other countries.  The wife only wants block construction because of the termites  and hurricanes in FL.

[BeeMaster2]

Brian,
Maybe I am missing something but most structural lumber here is white pine.

It might be more plentiful in FL.  It is structurally much weaker then spruce and fir.  What is the size of the 2x4 that is made from pine?  There are a lot of old houses up here that were made from pine 2x4's but they are a full 2x4 rough sawn.  Back in the day you used what was close by.  Today most lumber comes from other countries.  The wife only wants block construction because of the termites  and hurricanes in FL.

White pine does not grow here in the south. It has to be shipped in. We grow tons of yellow pine. That is what is on my farm. Almost all houses here are built with white pine.
The yellow pine is the same dimensions as white pine or spruce.
Spruce and fir are great if you want to feed the termites. They like it as much as they love white pine.

Jim

[moebees]

Why?  I have built allot of hives out of spruce.

It rots the fastest.

I doesn't rot any faster than pine.

[Acebird]

Spruce is not durable.  Worst choice for exposed lumber.
http://www.softwood.org/uploads/7/1/0/6/71061057/as_species_eng.pdf

[Ben Framed]

Spruce is not durable.  Worst choice for exposed lumber.
http://www.softwood.org/uploads/7/1/0/6/71061057/as_species_eng.pdf

I agree with you Ace about hives and spruce, but frames, in a good hive are pretty much protected from the (elements) inside the hive. Therefore I was thinking it would be ok for frames? I realize that  condensation can be, and is a part of the inside of not properly vented hive. One thing that I have noticed on this forum is the importance of a properly vented hive. Especially in winter. Also, with bees tracking up, down, and all along the frames, the frames seem to have a slight coating of , bees wax or  propolis?, which should add to their protection? Now remember , I am new so if I'm wrong, please correct me. Kind reguards, Phillip Hall

[Acebird]

Any insect needs a very high moisture content to live.  A beehive is very moist.  Bees propolise the inside of the hive.  If they did not the equipment would not last more than a couple of years.  The amount of moisture on the outside is nothing compared to the inside.  What kills the equipment on the outside is the sun.  The purpose of painting a hive is to protect it from the sun.

[Ben Framed]

Any insect needs a very high moisture content to live.  A beehive is very moist.  Bees propolise the inside of the hive.  If they did not the equipment would not last more than a couple of years.  The amount of moisture on the outside is nothing compared to the inside.  What kills the equipment on the outside is the sun.  The purpose of painting a hive is to protect it from the sun.

Thank you Ace!! From now on, no more spruce frames here.. 😊😁

[Ben Framed]

Any insect needs a very high moisture content to live.  A beehive is very moist.  Bees propolise the inside of the hive.  If they did not the equipment would not last more than a couple of years.  The amount of moisture on the outside is nothing compared to the inside.  What kills the equipment on the outside is the sun.  The purpose of painting a hive is to protect it from the sun.

@ Acebird  Now we know why Howard Hughes scraped the plans on the Spruce Goose after only one flight!! Ahh haa haa . Who wants to fly a rotten, over size. Sea Plane..  😁😁.  J/K

[Ben Framed]

@ littlejohn
You sir have done you fair share of frame building and accumulated valuable experience  in the process. Thank you for sharing your knodlege.

Also thanks for everyone else for your responses.
Phillip

[Oldbeavo]

Getting back to the original question, the width of the side bar of the frame needs to allow some spare room so you can part the frames either side of the one you want to remove. This is to allow you to remove the frame without rolling bees or the queen.
New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

[Ben Framed]

Getting back to the original question, the width of the side bar of the frame needs to allow some spare room so you can part the frames either side of the one you want to remove. This is to allow you to remove the frame without rolling bees or the queen.
New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

Good point Oldbeavo... and you are right!!  Thanks for the post...

[Acebird]

New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

I think it is the same for 10 frame too.
Except for the fact that the wider width of the side frame gives the frame strength I feel it would be better if the side bar was the same size as the top bar and just gage the spacing for what you want.  Maybe a carbon fiber frame with a removable bottom bar would be ideal?

[Ben Framed]

New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

I think it is the same for 10 frame too.
Except for the fact that the wider width of the side frame gives the frame strength I feel it would be better if the side bar was the same size as the top bar and just gage the spacing for what you want.  Maybe a carbon fiber frame with a removable bottom bar would be ideal?

That's food for thought Ace. I don't see why that would not work.  Kind of along those same lines in a scene, reguarding the side frames being the same width as the top bar, i  watched a video of a fellow in, I think it is Cambodia but that might not be right so don't quote me. I can look it up if need be , but this guy was making frames and cutting side bars, with a skill saw / table saw. Home made job. But the bar width was the same as the top bar. What he would do for spaceing was later add shims according to the thicknessthat he wanted, along the sides. In another one of his videos I could  see that he also had added plastic shims to the side bar to acheave this same thickness. I tried to ask him where he got the plastic shims but the translation wasn't clear enough for a good answer. Of course this doesn't jive with your idea, only in that the side bar has the same thickness as the top bar. I suppose as long the frames would hand straight down, level, your idea would work?

[little john]

Getting back to the original question, the width of the side bar of the frame needs to allow some spare room so you can part the frames either side of the one you want to remove. This is to allow you to remove the frame without rolling bees or the queen.
New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

One problem which British beekeepers face when using our standard hive - the British National (essentially a cut-down version of the Root-Langstroth, with a few wacky features added) - is that it was designed to accomodate eleven frames at 38mm (1.5") spacing, with just 2mm left over (in theory) as 'wiggle room'.

But - over the years the industry has settled on the use of 35mm Hoffman frames, which now leave an embarrassing gap at one end of the box - although it is just possible with the aid of a shoehorn to squeeze-in 12 frames, but only when they're new and un-propolised.  Those 'in the know', fill the inevitable 11-frame gap with a dummy board, which is 'inserted last and then removed first', that is, prior to pulling-out any frames.   Those who are not 'in the know' either spread their frames out equally, or leave a gap where there really shouldn't be one - with predictable consequences.

Perhaps you could use a similar 'dummy-board' method with your own hives ?
LJ

[Acebird]

Don't the bees cement the dummy board to the wall of the box?  Seems like you could make a half frame and keep it no farther then 3/8 away from the wall of the box.

[Ben Framed]

Don't the bees cement the dummy board to the wall of the box?  Seems like you could make a half frame and keep it no farther then 3/8 away from the wall of the box.

@ littlejohn I would like to know this also please sir ..

[little john]

I've never experienced a problem when using a dummy board - providing a beespace is maintained between it and the end wall.  If you don't, then they might well glue it to the end wall - dunno for sure, as I've never tried using them without a beespace - but why tempt fate ?

But - a lot of the time I don't bother using them - especially with (say) 5-frame nucs which have a large gap at one side  (due to their width being half of an 11-frame box) - but then nucleus colonies don't make much of a mess - the occasional wax 'bridge', but that's about all.
LJ

[little john]

Just wanted to add: generally speaking, gaps at the outside of a comb array tend not to create too many problems - as long as you don't make them far too big, by leaving a frame out completely - as bees tend not to be very enthusiastic about building on the outer side of the outside combs, and the worse that usually happens is that they build a few adhesive wax 'bridges' onto the box end wall which are easy enough to scrape off.

A much bigger problem can occur though, if spacing is excessive anywhere towards the middle of the array, especially if the colony is large, and if foundation is being used - for in such cases they will always be looking for any space within which to build drone comb.  This is perhaps the best example of 'creative comb-building' I've ever seen (on the Internet), and I just had to save a copy of that photograph !



A superb example of what can happen if you don't close-up those frames ...

LJ

[Oldbeavo]

It is not that you close them up, but you space the frames evenly, I the Paradise poly hives you can run 9 in the box with very little room but 8 frames also work if evenly spaced.
We had a stuff up when we were under supering and came across a super with no frames in it, we were already running seven frames in an 8 frame box, so six supers became 6 frames to be able to put 6 in the empty super.
Carefully spaced the bees blew out some enormous frames, about 2" thick, best (full depth) weighed 4.5kg or about 10lb.
Maybe because the started with stickies, fully waxed extracted frames they didn't make a mess.

[Ben Framed]

It is not that you close them up, but you space the frames evenly, I the Paradise poly hives you can run 9 in the box with very little room but 8 frames also work if evenly spaced.
We had a stuff up when we were under supering and came across a super with no frames in it, we were already running seven frames in an 8 frame box, so six supers became 6 frames to be able to put 6 in the empty super.
Carefully spaced the bees blew out some enormous frames, about 2" thick, best (full depth) weighed 4.5kg or about 10lb.
Maybe because the started with stickies, fully waxed extracted frames they didn't make a mess.

Thanks Oldbeavo, good information here appreciate your post. Always good information from you sir.
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"