Starting over again for the fourth time

[Acebird]

I never see more than a few frames of honey that I leave for the winter.

You very well may be in an area that won't support honey bees.  In your area you are going to need at least two boxes of honey to overwinter and brood up for next season.  First question to ask yourself is are the hives growing to critical mass (1 deep packed to hilt with bees, or 2 mediums)?  Second question: are the hives getting robbed.
You are now getting packages too early for your area.  If they are supplying virgin queens instead of mated queens they are done for.  Even with a mated queen it could be iffy.  No way to feed and not enough bees to not limit the queen.  Hive decides to supercede and progress gets stymied.

[Bush_84]

If his bees are swarming then I doubt they are starving. From what I gather it sounds like he can?t get his bees to build up into the second box and they swarm. Maybe it?s the frames they don?t like as he indicated in his original post.  Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second?  Bees will move up into the second box if you move brood. You can also convince them to draw out a comb if you put an empty frame between brood combs. Of course you don?t want to overextend them when doing this.

When I first started keeping bees I was in an area with a super intense raspberry flow. When the raspberries bloomed my bees would fill every single cell with nectar and swarm. The issue was my lack of honey comb and brood comb. If I had been further along in my beekeeping career I?d just have piled supers on top, however since I was still starting it I was just spinning my wheels. Just another thought.

[billdean]

I am 50 miles from you Flex. I know your area well and I can tell you for certain bee's thrive here. We have maple trees in the spring followed by dandelions, honeysuckle, Blackberrys and one of the most important, Nap Weed as well as others. I have never seen any area around us that did not have lots of goldenrod in the fall also.

 Never had a problem getting bee's to move up in any package I have purchased, and to thrive. I have seen packages get honey bound fairly quickly here in our area and cast swarms because of lack of room for the queen to lay. This can happen in early early June especially if your feeding them. If you are going to use drawn comb or if you buy nuc's their going to out grow that first box quickly, at least in 8 frame Mediums.  Usually buy the time you can get nuc's here (end of May) the flow has been going for a couple of weeks. I generally only feed my package bees until the flow is on good. Then their pretty capable of building and maintaining the hive on their own. I do watch my package bees carefully and inspect them every 7 days.

One last thing. Varro Mites thrive here! I treat every package of bees after I hive them within the first 4 or 5 days..

[FlexMedia.tv]

I never see more than a few frames of honey that I leave for the winter.

  Second question: are the hives getting robbed.

I don't think they are getting robbed. I keep the entrance reducer on. When I feed I use a top feeder in a covered super. Some fights and a few yellow jackets

[FlexMedia.tv]

Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second? 

I have not tried 1/2 of the frames. Iv'e only moved one from each hive and they built a few cells. I have placed a frame of honey in the 2nd super too with no results. I caught a swarm that wasn't one of my own that I was sure I had the queen but they hated the black plastic frames.  Had to get rid of those!

[FlexMedia.tv]

I am 50 miles from you Flex. I know your area well and I can tell you for certain bee's thrive here. We have maple trees in the spring followed by dandelions, honeysuckle, Blackberrys and one of the most important, Nap Weed as well as others. I have never seen any area around us that did not have lots of goldenrod in the fall also.

 Never had a problem getting bee's to move up in any package I have purchased, and to thrive. I have seen packages get honey bound fairly quickly here in our area and cast swarms because of lack of room for the queen to lay. This can happen in early early June especially if your feeding them. If you are going to use drawn comb or if you buy nuc's their going to out grow that first box quickly, at least in 8 frame Mediums.  Usually buy the time you can get nuc's here (end of May) the flow has been going for a couple of weeks. I generally only feed my package bees until the flow is on good. Then their pretty capable of building and maintaining the hive on their own. I do watch my package bees carefully and inspect them every 7 days.

One last thing. Varro Mites thrive here! I treat every package of bees after I hive them within the first 4 or 5 days..

What do you use for your Varro Mites?

[eltalia]

G'day... welcome back Trooper :-))
Soooo... 100% loss?
Any clues in the debris...?...I recall there were moisture troubles
in at least one colony?

Bill

Bill,
Good to be back Bill. It's that darn day job! *wink!*

Heh heh.... all roles in Life must be filled, the altetnative is no
fun at all. Mortifying, actually... hahaahaaa

The only debris I could find were sick looking bees and wax moths
in the one. The other just looked like they froze. There were a few
wax moths but only under the screened bottom board. You are right.
There was mold but only in the hive I built. I only stained it and when
the stain went the mold came.

If nothing else there is now a hotchpotch of input to work from.
Not to confuse you further but have you considered owning two
modes in Mich. beekeeping.
A "Winter" mode and a "Everything Else" mode?

Bill

[billdean]

I am 50 miles from you Flex. I know your area well and I can tell you for certain bee's thrive here. We have maple trees in the spring followed by dandelions, honeysuckle, Blackberrys and one of the most important, Nap Weed as well as others. I have never seen any area around us that did not have lots of goldenrod in the fall also.

 Never had a problem getting bee's to move up in any package I have purchased, and to thrive. I have seen packages get honey bound fairly quickly here in our area and cast swarms because of lack of room for the queen to lay. This can happen in early early June especially if your feeding them. If you are going to use drawn comb or if you buy nuc's their going to out grow that first box quickly, at least in 8 frame Mediums.  Usually buy the time you can get nuc's here (end of May) the flow has been going for a couple of weeks. I generally only feed my package bees until the flow is on good. Then their pretty capable of building and maintaining the hive on their own. I do watch my package bees carefully and inspect them every 7 days.

One last thing. Varro Mites thrive here! I treat every package of bees after I hive them within the first 4 or 5 days..

What do you use for your Varro Mites?

Oxalic acid / OAV

[Bush_84]

Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second? 

I have not tried 1/2 of the frames. Iv'e only moved one from each hive and they built a few cells. I have placed a frame of honey in the 2nd super too with no results. I caught a swarm that wasn't one of my own that I was sure I had the queen but they hated the black plastic frames.  Had to get rid of those!

Are we still talking about adding a second box or making a split?  I?ve never had a hive make a queen when I put some brood frames in a new box above the original. I suppose if you put it above an excluder maybe. If you put brood above when adding a second box they will either occupy the box or just tend to the single frame if their population doesn?t warrant a second box.

I believe that if you learn to control swarming and control mites you will be more successful. Get reading!  I also suggest oxalic acid. I build a provap clone this winter and will be using that going forward.

[FlexMedia.tv]

Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second? 

I have not tried 1/2 of the frames. Iv'e only moved one from each hive and they built a few cells. I have placed a frame of honey in the 2nd super too with no results. I caught a swarm that wasn't one of my own that I was sure I had the queen but they hated the black plastic frames.  Had to get rid of those!

If you put brood above when adding a second box they will either occupy the box or just tend to the single frame if their population doesn?t warrant a second box.

That's what I did. Just pulled one brood frame and placed it in the super above along with other blank frames. They tended to that frame but it did not improve. I haven't tried moving half of them yet.

[Acebird]

One frame should work if there is forage and they are in expansion mode.

[Bush_84]

One frame should work if there is forage and they are in expansion mode.

I have generally not had issues either, but if he has had issues with swarming despite supering another brood box with a frame a brood something isn?t going as planned. If it were me I?d add more frames above and be more aggressive with checkerboarding empty frames between brood frames while also not overextending my bees.

[Acebird]

if he has had issues with swarming despite supering another brood box with a frame a brood something isn?t going as planned.

No argument there.  But suppose he is trying to super after they have decide to swarm not before.  Then he will see them swarm no matter how he adds the box.  We still don't know about his supplier.  Is he raising swarming queens because he is selling bees?  That is a fast way to make money if you can get your customers to keep coming back.

[Bush_84]

Ya its also possible that he is adding a second brood box a little late. I seem to recall that he has tried getting packages from a few different places however. If that is indeed that case then I?d say that this is more likely to be a management issue and not a queen issue.

[Acebird]

I?d say that this is more likely to be a management issue and not a queen issue.

No matter how you cut it it is a management issue.  We are trying to determine what manager is at fault.

[FlexMedia.tv]

Ya its also possible that he is adding a second brood box a little late. I seem to recall that he has tried getting packages from a few different places however. If that is indeed that case then I?d say that this is more likely to be a management issue and not a queen issue.

I got them from three different places three different years. The last year I picked them up locally and I plan to do that again Tuesday. I have placed a super on early and late. The one hive that did ok, had a few frames of honey that I left in the hive for the winter. That one swarmed too but I can't remember if I added the super early or late. I know I fed them sugar water last year. A few hives they would only come up the the super for the food. I thought about investing in a nuk but that may be next year's project. I think treating them this year should help alot.

[Acebird]

I think treating them this year should help alot.

It is important to know what your supplier did, does, prior to you picking up the bees.  Are you getting a mated queen or not?
Just saying, treating could be the worse thing you could do if they don't need it.

[FlexMedia.tv]

I think treating them this year should help alot.

It is important to know what your supplier did, does, prior to you picking up the bees.  Are you getting a mated queen or not?

The latest ones I will instal will be here May 1st. They were arranged by our club and I thought they were local but looks like they are coming from Georgia. The weather delayed them. Throughout the years it has been mail order, Dadant, Brushy Mountain, Kelleys, all mated queens.

[beepro]

This one works for me.  Every time I bought a new queen I quickly graft daughters from her.  This will allow the local genetics to mix in.  Having local bees will help stabilize your hive faster.  Overwintering should not be an issue either if you have a healthy bee population without the mites.  These are the local adapted bees!  Try to get to the 4th generation if you can.

[Acebird]

See my blog and watch me bumble through starting hives:

So I did.
Very nice website and a whole lot of very nice equipment.
Things that I see:
Entrance feeders, get rid of them.  Queen excluders, get rid of them.  Inspections, stop doing them.  Double layered comb, push the frames together tight.  Do not leave empty space in a box.  Put all the frames in.  Mead making, are you stealing their honey?  Stop.  Swarming in August and September?  Way too much intervention causing the colonies to book as a last ditch effort.  Organic gardens and you want to treat?  Bees not only bring pesticides to their hive they also bring pesticides to you vegetables.
Take the success you have at fishing and bring it to your hives.  They both start with patience.