Author Topic: Temperature inside a beehive (Read 5923 times)

LizzieBee · « **on:** April 09, 2018, 03:16:51 pm »

I?ve researched for the inside temperature of a beehive but the only helpful link I get is the temperature the brood must be in order to grow and emerge. The reason I ask is because I read that beeswax has to be 95 degrees (Fahrenheit) for the bees to work it. It?s been only 70 degrees during the day lately and they are cold blooded... I got a package of bees without a nuc. They are in a Langstroth hive with foundation on the frames. I checked on them the day after I installed them and they haven?t built on the frames at all. Are they capable of hearing the hive up to 95? I?m new to this, and I?m starting to wonder if I should?ve done more research...

LizzieBee

sc-bee · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2018, 03:35:01 pm »

You should not be pulling frames and checking bees the day after you installed a package.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2018, 03:40:25 pm »

Lizzie,
Bees are capable of and do produce heat, as high as 116 degrees, to kill Japanese hornets.
If they have enough bees they can build wax at 70 degrees. If they are making wax they will usually be very noisy.
Jim

LizzieBee · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2018, 03:54:40 pm »

Thank you. I?m fascinated by how they can adjust the temperature so drastically!

I had to open it up because the owner of the apiary told me that the worker bees and queen bee had only been together for 24 hours and suggested I leave the cap on the queen cage a day longer and then allow the bees to eat the candy in the opening to release the queen.

LizzieBee

eltalia · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2018, 06:11:36 pm »

"Thank you. I?m fascinated by how they can adjust the temperature so drastically! "

Think about the effect of blowing into your cupped hands in chilly weather.
Core body temp at work.
Bees use respiration and communal core temps (clusters/cascades) to achieve
such a focused outcome as your "warming of hands".

Bill

Acebird · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2018, 08:59:26 pm »

Quote from: sc-bee on April 09, 2018, 03:35:01 pm

You should not be pulling frames and checking bees the day after you installed a package.

Duh, it hurts doesn't it SC?

LizzieBee · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2018, 02:54:54 am »

I had to remove two frames in order to access the queen cage. The bees seem to be doing fine today, I saw quite a few bringing lots of pollen. I did hear some loud buzzing so when I check on them in about a week hopefully there will be some drawn comb.

LizzieBee

eltalia · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2018, 07:02:26 am »

Quote from: LizzieBee on April 10, 2018, 02:54:54 am

I had to remove two frames in order to access the queen cage.
(edit)
LizzieBee

It can be a bit of a pain Lizzie - this question asking gig.
I certainly do not have the answer but I do know it is
not unusual for some to assume from reading the
question the author is in need of some basics to be
addressed in an answer.
I guess just rolling with it, "go with the flow" is maybe
the default approach in analysing answers.
Lucks to your bees.

Bill

Robo · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2018, 09:25:03 am »

Are you feeding them? It takes a lot of resources for them to make wax. The best way to feed them is internal to the hive, not with a boardman feeder.

https://beevac.com/feeder-compare/

LizzieBee · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2018, 01:33:35 pm »

Yes. I am feeding them with a boardman feeder. I would get a feeder for the inside but they?re difficult to find at stores around here, and I?m not old enough to drive. I don?t want to have someone go out of their way since the store is far away. The boardman feeder came with the kit so that makes me assume that it?ll work. I do see that a feeder inside is a little easier for them to access.

Thanks,
LizzieBee

Robo · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2018, 02:44:30 pm »

You don't need to buy anything, in fact you can use the jar from the boardman feeder, just place it over the inner cover hole. The boardman feeder they won't feed from at night, or if the syrup gets cold. With it inside they can feed 24/7 and it keeps warmer. Check out the link I provided and look at inverted jar method.

LizzieBee · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2018, 12:20:30 pm »

It going to be cold and rainy for a few days. I like the idea of feeding the bees through the inner cover but having the empty brood box around the jar of syrup could make all the heat from below where the bees are rise to the top where they are not. I?ve never seen it done, but is it possible to take 2-3 frames out and place the boardman feeder and jar (which is currently on the landing board) in their place? Could this create other problems? There were no bees in the feeder tray this morning because it is very cold and gloomy outside.

Let me know if I?m missing something.
LizzieBee

Robo · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2018, 12:52:01 pm »

DON'T remove frames as they will build wild comb in the space instead of drawing out your frames. The inner cover will help them retain the heat. You can also but newspapers or other insulating material on top of the inner cover and around the jar if you are still worried. But unless you think it is going to drop below freezing I think the inner cover alone is enough.

LizzieBee · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2018, 09:36:27 pm »

Ok. I may change the current feeder setup soon.

LizzieBee

Robo · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2018, 09:46:45 pm »

Keep us posted. It is awesome to see young folks getting into beekeeping

cao · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2018, 10:22:16 pm »

Quote from: Robo on April 11, 2018, 09:46:45 pm

Keep us posted. It is awesome to see young folks getting into beekeeping

Agreed

LizzieBee · « **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2018, 02:46:02 pm »

Just checked on the hive yesterday to see if the queen was released. I didn?t see her, but she was released from her cage. The bees have built wax on three surfaces of frames. Will the queen start laying in unfinished frames? I mean if the bees haven?t quite finished building the wax.

LizzieBee

Robo · « **Reply #17 on:** April 14, 2018, 05:21:06 pm »

The queen will lay in partially drawn cells. As the eggs hatch and grow, the workers will finish building the cells so that they are ready to cap when the larvae starts to pupate.

The15thMember · « **Reply #18 on:** April 16, 2018, 12:57:58 am »

Quote from: Robo on April 11, 2018, 12:52:01 pm

DON'T remove frames as they will build wild comb in the space instead of drawing out your frames. The inner cover will help them retain the heat. You can also but newspapers or other insulating material on top of the inner cover and around the jar if you are still worried. But unless you think it is going to drop below freezing I think the inner cover alone is enough.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I'm having a sort of similar situation. I just installed my two packages on Friday, and it's going down to 28 degrees Fahrenheit tomorrow night for us here in NC (that's -2 Celsius for anyone not in America). I have each package in 2 mediums, but I have sugar bricks on top of the frames of the bottom box, so the 2nd box has no frames in it, then inner cover, outer cover. Do I need to insulate them in any way for tomorrow night?

Robo · « **Reply #19 on:** April 16, 2018, 08:21:01 am »

I wouldn't worry about insulating them, but I would get rid of the sugar block and feed them 1:1 warm syrup instead. It is not easy for them to consume the sugar block.

I would suggest putting the inner cover over the bottom box with bees and then inverting a jar of warm syrup over the inner cover hole. then the empty 2nd hive box and top cover. Make two jars of syrup and keep one in the house, every 12 hours sway out the jar on the hive for a new one.

The bees will keep themselves warm if you provide them with food that is easily consumed (warm syrup, they will not take cold syrup) they have no brood yet that they need to keep warm. Since you are in NC, the low temps will only be temporary and sporadic. Syrup will encourage them to draw wax, sugar alone will not as it requires them effort to process. I have used this many times here in NY in March with newbies and it works great. Just keep them with syrup they can consume 24/7. Since you are using mediums you will need to keep any eye on their growth and add the second box quickly. I always use deeps for brood boxes.

Acebird · « **Reply #20 on:** April 16, 2018, 08:24:40 am »

IMO You should have frames in both boxes, entrance reduced to 3/4 width and if you are going to mountain camp put it on top of the second box. A two inch thick foam board on top of the cover. leave it there until both boxes are drawn and full of bees. The bees will stay the warmest if they can cluster in a sphere.
So my instruction would be to fill the top box with frames and put it under the lower box (reversal). Do not leave empty space where the bees have access.

iddee · « **Reply #21 on:** April 16, 2018, 08:31:15 am »

The 15th member.... When you open your hives, you will find a cluster of bees hanging comb from the inner lid. There will be no bees on the frames, other than maybe a few protecting the queen. Bees will never draw comb on frames when open space is available.

The15thMember · « **Reply #22 on:** April 16, 2018, 01:46:25 pm »

Quote from: Robo on April 16, 2018, 08:21:01 am

I wouldn't worry about insulating them, but I would get rid of the sugar block and feed them 1:1 warm syrup instead. It is not easy for them to consume the sugar block.

I would suggest putting the inner cover over the bottom box with bees and then inverting a jar of warm syrup over the inner cover hole. then the empty 2nd hive box and top cover. Make two jars of syrup and keep one in the house, every 12 hours sway out the jar on the hive for a new one.

The bees will keep themselves warm if you provide them with food that is easily consumed (warm syrup, they will not take cold syrup) they have no brood yet that they need to keep warm. Since you are in NC, the low temps will only be temporary and sporadic. Syrup will encourage them to draw wax, sugar alone will not as it requires them effort to process. I have used this many times here in NY in March with newbies and it works great. Just keep them with syrup they can consume 24/7. Since you are using mediums you will need to keep any eye on their growth and add the second box quickly. I always use deeps for brood boxes.

Thank you so much, Rob! I'll do exactly that.

Quote from: iddee on April 16, 2018, 08:31:15 am

The 15th member.... When you open your hives, you will find a cluster of bees hanging comb from the inner lid. There will be no bees on the frames, other than maybe a few protecting the queen. Bees will never draw comb on frames when open space is available.

I've been concerned about this, and if I do it like Rob said, I'll avoid that problem too, because they won't be able to get to the upper box. Perfect.

Quote from: Acebird on April 16, 2018, 08:24:40 am

IMO You should have frames in both boxes, entrance reduced to 3/4 width and if you are going to mountain camp put it on top of the second box. A two inch thick foam board on top of the cover. leave it there until both boxes are drawn and full of bees. The bees will stay the warmest if they can cluster in a sphere.
So my instruction would be to fill the top box with frames and put it under the lower box (reversal). Do not leave empty space where the bees have access.

Thanks for the advice, Ace. It's going to get up to almost 80 degrees on Wednesday here, so I'm going to go with Rob's method. Adding insulation is just feeling a little overkill to me. But thank you for the input, it's good to hear different opinions on the subject.

iddee · « **Reply #23 on:** April 16, 2018, 01:52:58 pm »

Yes, Rob's suggestions are always spot on. Anything to keep them from accessing open space will work.

Acebird · « **Reply #24 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:53:43 pm »

Quote from: iddee on April 16, 2018, 01:52:58 pm

Yes, Rob's suggestions are always spot on.

Except Rob admits he uses deeps and the OP is using mediums. Two mediums would be more like one deep. 28 degrees to 80 is a huge temperature swing. That is the kind of thing that can flood a hive with syrup when the air in an inverted jar expands going from 28 to 80. You can heat the syrup up but at 28 degrees the bees are clustered and they are not feeding. Don't add the feed until the air temperature warms up. The insulation is a choice but it does slow down the temperature changes in both directions and it would help with the loss of heat from warm syrup when you feed.

The15thMember · « **Reply #25 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:34:03 pm »

Ok, so I'm cooking up my plan here.... If it's the air in the jar that causes the expansion issue (which makes sense since the sugar doesn't change temperature as quickly) what if I use Ziploc baggie feeders instead? I have some Imrie shims, so I could use a shim to facilitate enough space for the baggie, and then I could just remove the 2nd box entirely (or fill it with frames, whatever you guys think is better). So I'd have box, shim and baggie, inner cover, outer cover. I'd still warm up the syrup of course. What do you guys think of that?

iddee · « **Reply #26 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:46:18 pm »

If the shim is 3/4 inch or more, you will still have wild comb. NO OPEN SPACE means just that. It would be better to just remove the feed until the air is warm enough for them to take it. ""55 F. or higher" After all, what is the need for it if they can't access it?

Acebird · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2018, 04:18:42 pm »

My point exactly.

The15thMember · « **Reply #28 on:** April 16, 2018, 06:41:44 pm »

Alright, so I was going to go out and put some warm syrup in the hive, but as I was getting suited up I realized that it was REALLY cold and windy and I was worried about going in there and potentially breaking up the cluster. So I cut up an old foam mattress pad and put some insulation between the outer and inner covers. Tomorrow it'll be warmer, and I have to go in and get the queen cage out anyway, so I'll probably put some warm syrup in for them then. Thanks to everybody for all the info. It really helped me make a decision I felt comfortable with. And sorry again for hijacking your thread, Lizzie, I really didn't mean too.

Acebird · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2018, 09:26:10 pm »

Quote from: The15thMember on April 16, 2018, 06:41:44 pm

So I cut up an old foam mattress pad and put some insulation between the outer and inner covers.

Something you might want to remember. Insulation has the exact same R value no matter where it is placed, inside, outside or in between. Place it where it is easiest to install or take away.

Robo · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2018, 09:54:57 pm »

Quote from: The15thMember on April 16, 2018, 03:34:03 pm

Ok, so I'm cooking up my plan here.... If it's the air in the jar that causes the expansion issue (which makes sense since the sugar doesn't change temperature as quickly) what if I use Ziploc baggie feeders instead? I have some Imrie shims, so I could use a shim to facilitate enough space for the baggie, and then I could just remove the 2nd box entirely (or fill it with frames, whatever you guys think is better). So I'd have box, shim and baggie, inner cover, outer cover. I'd still warm up the syrup of course. What do you guys think of that?

I have only ever had expansion issues when using plastic, glass has never been a problem. The purpose of the inverted jar is that the bees can cluster right on it and feed. Baggie feeders require then to break cluster. If the syrup with warm enough for consumption, they will consume faster than the expansion.

Acebird · « **Reply #31 on:** April 17, 2018, 09:29:12 am »

Quote from: Robo on April 16, 2018, 09:54:57 pm

If the syrup with warm enough for consumption, they will consume faster than the expansion.

In our area we can count on the cluster being right on the inner cover this time of the year. I am not confident that is what happens in NC. If it does I agree with you the consumption could be faster then expansion. If the cluster is one box down you are going to have something different.

iddee · « **Reply #32 on:** April 17, 2018, 10:03:00 am »

Why would anyone be feeding sugar water in the cold when the hive has a full super of honey above the cluster? If they do that, they deserve to lose the bees.

The15thMember · « **Reply #33 on:** April 17, 2018, 10:40:15 am »

Quote from: Acebird on April 17, 2018, 09:29:12 am

In our area we can count on the cluster being right on the inner cover this time of the year. I am not confident that is what happens in NC. If it does I agree with you the consumption could be faster then expansion. If the cluster is one box down you are going to have something different.

If it helps, when I put the insulation in there yesterday, I peeked in the hole in the inner cover and they did not appear to be clustered up there.

eltalia · « **Reply #34 on:** April 17, 2018, 07:51:30 pm »

Quote from: iddee on April 17, 2018, 10:03:00 am

Why would anyone be feeding sugar water in the cold when the hive has a full super of
honey above the cluster? If they do that, they deserve to lose the bees.

I do not comment on feeding per se, Wally.
I make an exception just this once.

"they deserve to lose the bees."
Ditto.

Bill

The15thMember · « **Reply #35 on:** April 18, 2018, 12:33:42 pm »

So I went in the hive yesterday and switched out their sugar bricks for liquid syrup, as well as taking the queen cages out. Both hives had lots of bees festooning from the top bars and they were drawing new white wax, and seemingly straight on the frames! It was so exciting!

iddee · « **Reply #36 on:** April 18, 2018, 08:01:24 pm »

Good deal. Keep us posted.