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Author Topic: Queens arriving early. What would you do?  (Read 2847 times)

Offline wadmalaw

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Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« on: April 22, 2020, 08:56:41 pm »
I have been trying to secure queens from a specific breeder for a while and it hasn't worked out--that is, until now.  This year, I was able to get on a "stand-by" list.  My plan was to buy four queens, make splits off of my packages installed this year, and have the genetics that I've wanted for a while.  Well, I found out that those queens are coming sooner than expected.  My packages aren't quite strong enough to split, so I'm working out alternative arrangements.

My new plan: buy four queenless packages and install with my new queens.  It's the obvious choice, but a bit pricy.  Would any of you try something different or any ideas that come to mind?  I could purchase brood frames or something more interesting, but I thought the obvious path was easiest.  Ideas?

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2020, 09:04:41 pm »
If it's the genetics from these queens that your looking for, maybe pinch off your package queens the day before these arrive, then install these, and make splits later. Just thoughts.

I didn't catch how many packages you currently have.
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Offline wadmalaw

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2020, 09:15:04 pm »
I have 10 colonies installed 3 weeks ago.  They are from 3 different sources and I want to keep all of those queens to see what they do. 

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2020, 09:21:19 pm »
I have 10 colonies installed 3 weeks ago.  They are from 3 different sources and I want to keep all of those queens to see what they do.

Ahh - I totally understand. I dunno what to tell you, except what you already stated. Hopefully someone chimes in with a better idea.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2020, 11:16:27 pm »
Appears to me you have husbandry plans for honey bee stock.  That is buy bees from 3 different breeders then build from the best hives...  looking, planning for your future stock of honeybees.  Great idea to plan ahead.

Your plan to purchase packages sounds like a good plan for some impressive stock of queens.  One year from today, you will see from 3 different sources to see which queens are the best.

You must be into honeybees for the long run as you care greatly about your queens.  Good thinking, I tell ya.  May you receive a queen such as I did, years ago, an incredible queen I named Alpha.

Go ahead and spend for the packages if you cause no hardship to your finances.

Best to your bees.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 11:33:35 pm by van from Arkansas »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2020, 11:45:53 pm »
If were me, no sweat, no hesitation. Double queen hives would be setup.  Minimal extra equipment and cost. Separate them later when the boxes fill with bees. .
Or could do 4 nucs for getting the new queens established in.  Done by drawing some bees and resources from across all 10 to populate the nucs.  You said packages have been in for 3 weeks.  At 4 to 5 weeks there should be a population increase to draw from.

DQ is the way to go here tho, imho.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 12:10:59 am by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline wadmalaw

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2020, 12:26:53 am »
Appears to me you have husbandry plans for honey bee stock.  That is buy bees from 3 different breeders then build from the best hives...  looking, planning for your future stock of honeybees.  Great idea to plan ahead.

Your plan to purchase packages sounds like a good plan for some impressive stock of queens.  One year from today, you will see from 3 different sources to see which queens are the best.

You must be into honeybees for the long run as you care greatly about your queens.  Good thinking, I tell ya.  May you receive a queen such as I did, years ago, an incredible queen I named Alpha.

Go ahead and spend for the packages if you cause no hardship to your finances.

Best to your bees.

Guilty as charged.  I built up an apiary to 60 colonies a few years back following a similar strategy.  It worked for me.  So much so, that I didn't like to part with my bees (hence the number of colonies). 

Offline wadmalaw

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2020, 12:29:59 am »
If were me, no sweat, no hesitation. Double queen hives would be setup.  Minimal extra equipment and cost. Separate them later when the boxes fill with bees. .
Or could do 4 nucs for getting the new queens established in.  Done by drawing some bees and resources from across all 10 to populate the nucs.  You said packages have been in for 3 weeks.  At 4 to 5 weeks there should be a population increase to draw from.

DQ is the way to go here tho, imho.

This is the reason that I posted my question.  I've been doing this a long time and I've never even considered your suggestion.  I like it.  I assume that it's done by way of a queen excluder.  Anything else that I might be ignoring?  Thanks for the suggestion.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2020, 12:38:58 am »
OK since I brought it up, I guess it rightly rests with me on how to do it, right?

What do you have for equipment out behind the shed? What size boxes. You can do over/under with QE between them. Or go side by side in a divided box with a shared shallow box above a QE above them.
( QE = queen excluder )
Think over what you have for equipment and what your preferences are.  Select the path that you are most comfortable with. (Slow growing package/nucs or DQ booster rockets)

As for tips tricks steps, I hope the below is understandable and makes sense;

You can combine the established queens. It is the basic colony combine with newspaper and a QE between them. The extra step I do is spray the paper with sugar water that has a fairly strong dose of honeyBhealthy in it.  The paper goes on top of the bottom colony, spray it. Fold over two opposing corners of the paper, but about 1/2".  Just enough for air circulation and a few bees able to pass through. Put QE on top of paper, spray it. Put second colony on top. Put the lid on. No upper entrance.  Leave them completely alone for 10 days.

The new caged queens do not DQ right away, she will need her own box for a brief time to get her started first. A candied release up above might work but I would not try it.

I see above you have 10 packages installed about 3 weeks ago.  So will assume 10 singles. The details of the way I would do it in your yard is:

Combine 8 of the established package hives into DQ over/under. Note no upper entrances, all traffic goes through the bottom. While combining I would be stripping away half the bees and 1 brood frame from each of those and putting into 4 separate boxes which become fairly decent queenless splits/nucs. The bees for each of the splits will be coming from two hives so spray them down with that hBh laced sugar water to stem fighting and just shake hem in. You will end up with 4 DQ hives, 2 regular hives untouched, and 4
new queenless boxes. Then, as normal, cage introduce the 4 new queen arrivals each into her own queenless box. A week to 10 days later once the new queens are accepted, released, and laying a bit you can leave them as is or then combine those as well into over/under DQ to further boost bee production. 
Tips/notes:  Place the 4 new queen boxes in the set location that one of their parent package colony bees came from. Because there will be some bee drift from the DQ hive back to that spot and vise-versa.

Beeyard before the work.
S S S S S S S S S S
(( S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7 S8 S9 S10 ))
 
Beeyard after the work
S S D N D N D N D N
(( S1 S2 D34 N34 D56 N56 D78 N78 D910 N910 ))

(S=single, D=double, N=newqueensplitbox, numbers in (()) are shown with colony numbers to illustrate who goes where)

Thus the stage would be set. Then just wait and watch the show. The boxes will fill with bees quickly. Stay on top of weekly inspections of both upper and lower nests to keep them inline and progressing. Treat each nest as you would any other single hive when you are inspecting it, except do not move any brood frames around between them, so you can actually see what each queen is doing and able to assess them. If you move brood around you will loose track of whose patch is whose and have no basis for your queen performance evaluations.  Separate the DQ into individual hives sometime later, before they get too big to manage.

The queens just lay the eggs.  The bees make the bees.  More bees make more bees which make mores bees which make more bees .... Whenever we are flush with queens but short on bees the obvious solution (to me) is to DQ to get each queen enough support staff to show her excellence or mediocrity.

Do what you will with your bees. You are responsible for them.  I have merely laid out what I would do for your considerations.

Hope that helps!

« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 01:16:06 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2020, 01:19:26 pm »
Well, there you have it! (I had faith that someone [or several] here would have a better answer than me  :grin:)

HP - great idea(s)! I have a question about the Under/Over DQ hive: will the queens fight thru a single queen excluder? Should the configuration be QE-over-Shim-over-QE in between boxes? Or maybe QE-over-Box-over-QE to provide a super in between Queenright boxes? ... just trying to understand. Thank you in advance.
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2020, 01:28:40 pm »
Well, there you have it! (I had faith that someone [or several] here would have a better answer than me  :grin:)

HP - great idea(s)! I have a question about the Under/Over DQ hive: will the queens fight thru a single queen excluder? Should the configuration be QE-over-Shim-over-QE in between boxes? Or maybe QE-over-Box-over-QE to provide a super in between Queenright boxes? ... just trying to understand. Thank you in advance.

In my experience they don't. Laying queens at early stages of the colony are interested in one thing - laying. If they meet on the same frame they "may" fight, but generally they are not looking for each other if the combine has gone well.  The risk comes later when the boxes get filled up with bees, and the bees start to think about which queen they like more.  Consider the setup as temporary, lasting 2 or 3 brood cycles, 7 to 10 weeks, then separate them.

If one is concerned about it and want to put a shim in, put the shim on top of the QE under the upper colony.  This creates natural below the combs space that the queen usually will not cross.  Just know that the bees are going to build bridge comb in that space anyways, unnecessarily creating more work for the beekeeper at inspections.

When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2020, 02:05:05 pm »
My sincere thanks HP. Your willingness to share knowledge, shaves years off the learning curve - for us beginners trying to muddle our way along.

If you ever find your way down here - the beer is on me!
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Offline wadmalaw

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2020, 08:03:22 pm »
OK since I brought it up, I guess it rightly rests with me on how to do it, right?

What do you have for equipment out behind the shed? What size boxes. You can do over/under with QE between them. Or go side by side in a divided box with a shared shallow box above a QE above them.
( QE = queen excluder )
Think over what you have for equipment and what your preferences are.  Select the path that you are most comfortable with. (Slow growing package/nucs or DQ booster rockets)

As for tips tricks steps, I hope the below is understandable and makes sense;

You can combine the established queens. It is the basic colony combine with newspaper and a QE between them. The extra step I do is spray the paper with sugar water that has a fairly strong dose of honeyBhealthy in it.  The paper goes on top of the bottom colony, spray it. Fold over two opposing corners of the paper, but about 1/2".  Just enough for air circulation and a few bees able to pass through. Put QE on top of paper, spray it. Put second colony on top. Put the lid on. No upper entrance.  Leave them completely alone for 10 days.

The new caged queens do not DQ right away, she will need her own box for a brief time to get her started first. A candied release up above might work but I would not try it.

I see above you have 10 packages installed about 3 weeks ago.  So will assume 10 singles. The details of the way I would do it in your yard is:

Combine 8 of the established package hives into DQ over/under. Note no upper entrances, all traffic goes through the bottom. While combining I would be stripping away half the bees and 1 brood frame from each of those and putting into 4 separate boxes which become fairly decent queenless splits/nucs. The bees for each of the splits will be coming from two hives so spray them down with that hBh laced sugar water to stem fighting and just shake hem in. You will end up with 4 DQ hives, 2 regular hives untouched, and 4
new queenless boxes. Then, as normal, cage introduce the 4 new queen arrivals each into her own queenless box. A week to 10 days later once the new queens are accepted, released, and laying a bit you can leave them as is or then combine those as well into over/under DQ to further boost bee production. 
Tips/notes:  Place the 4 new queen boxes in the set location that one of their parent package colony bees came from. Because there will be some bee drift from the DQ hive back to that spot and vise-versa.

Beeyard before the work.
S S S S S S S S S S
(( S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7 S8 S9 S10 ))
 
Beeyard after the work
S S D N D N D N D N
(( S1 S2 D34 N34 D56 N56 D78 N78 D910 N910 ))

(S=single, D=double, N=newqueensplitbox, numbers in (()) are shown with colony numbers to illustrate who goes where)

Thus the stage would be set. Then just wait and watch the show. The boxes will fill with bees quickly. Stay on top of weekly inspections of both upper and lower nests to keep them inline and progressing. Treat each nest as you would any other single hive when you are inspecting it, except do not move any brood frames around between them, so you can actually see what each queen is doing and able to assess them. If you move brood around you will loose track of whose patch is whose and have no basis for your queen performance evaluations.  Separate the DQ into individual hives sometime later, before they get too big to manage.

The queens just lay the eggs.  The bees make the bees.  More bees make more bees which make mores bees which make more bees .... Whenever we are flush with queens but short on bees the obvious solution (to me) is to DQ to get each queen enough support staff to show her excellence or mediocrity.

Do what you will with your bees. You are responsible for them.  I have merely laid out what I would do for your considerations.

Hope that helps!

Thank you, again, for the detailed response.  I'm going to give your setup suggestion a try.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2020, 08:31:46 am »
Amazing ideas. HP, in a DQ with a single entrance at the bottom, does the lower box queen get more traffic/attention/ resources than the upper box queen?

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2020, 10:33:11 am »
Question fir HP:

First, thank you for your detailed post.

Second, I tried a newspaper combine with 2 corners of the paper folded for an 1/2 inch air vent.  What happened was the bees marched rite thur the vent and balled the queen.

I did not use any kind of spray such as syrup or hbh.  I still use newspaper  but no air vent.

Your comment??
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2020, 11:43:19 am »
Mr Van, I am not attempting to answer your question, just simply making a comment of my experience of making a combo. Last fall I did a combo with a queenless hive. I did not know of the fold the corner trick. What I did was simply use a single sheet of regular newspaper and lay it over the existing queenless box and then placed the box of bees with the queen on top of this. After a day or so, I noticed strips of newspaper being pulled to the outside of the entrance. Apparently my blind attempt worked because they are now one of my strongest hives. At the time, I did not know of the fold the corner trick along with spraying the bees with sugar water with the hint of Honey Bee Healthy while making a combo. Though I had heard of introducing queen in a similar manner as follows.

Tim Durham an older gentleman and lifetime beekeeper, and my neighbor (as the crow flies), along with being a youtube producer, (and a really nice man, may I add), does the following when introducing a new queen to a queenless colony. Tim uses a sugar water/HBH combo and lightley sprays the colony with this along with lightly spraying the new queen, thereby directly introducing and releasing these strangers together. He says he has NEVER lost a queen in this introduction manor.

Phillip Hall
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2020, 11:49:26 am »
The syrup/hbh is required to confuse the pheromones between the two nests to reduce and prevent fighting. The corner vents need to be small.  2-3 bees wide. As alternative instead of the corner fold can cut slits in the paper along outer frames. The size of the nests do not have to be the same but is best if they are comparable.  The minimum size of cluster around each queen is also important.  3 frames cluster size so she has a guard wall of her own bees around her.  If the bees temperament is such that you are concerned about them not getting along, spray most of the bees and frame bars with the sugar water/hbh mix as well.

PS:   I do really enjoy Tims videos, pleasant man. Walls Bee Man.  Good jokes too. ;). Wonder where that ladle went. Lol. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 12:18:11 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2020, 12:05:25 pm »
Ok, understood HP. Thanks

I was actually combining a medium queen rite hive with a smaller queenless hive.  The smaller placed on top with the newspaper combine between.  I was surprised the queen was balled, within minutes I might add.  But,,, I did not use hbh or any thing to mask pheromone.  I don?t use hbh, I do have lemon grass oil and use sometimes during flow, not during a dearth. 

Yep Mr. Ben, agreed.  Plain ol newspaper works for combine if comparable size hives and single queenrite.  I have watched many a vid by Durham.  Tell Tom to get rid of that pink T shirt.., just kidding.

Thank you again HP and Phil.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2020, 12:23:25 pm »
Van, may it be possible that QL hive had a rogue virgin?  She would certainly seek and destroy pdq.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2020, 12:32:20 pm »
>Yep Mr. Ben, agreed.  Plain ol newspaper works for combine if comparable size hives and single queenrite.  I have
   watched many a vid by Durham.  Tell Tom to get rid of that pink T shirt.., just kidding.

Somebody needs to tell him lol.  Really though breast cancer awareness is a big thing around here. They are using pink as the color theme for a color minded, quick awareness recognition. Mr Van they are even making garbage pick up dumpsters in pink. All proceeds go to breast cancer research. I think that is Tims point. lol  He is a big hearted man. Did you happen to see the video where his son, Tim Jr. was releasing a swarm and they tore him up? Tim busted out laughing of the video. He is a mess! OK off subject. I stop here with that. lol

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Queens arriving early. What would you do?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2020, 12:46:31 pm »
>Wonder where that ladle went. Lol.

Woo Wee Mr HP. I don't know what to say about that! lol
Mama was sharp as a tack, they could not put anything past her! lol

Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.