Branded Double Horseshoe

[CLSranch]

CLS,
What is the 1/4? rule?

 Always be at least 1/4" farther away than they can reach/kick. Usually round pen/lunging/plowing work.

  I know it wasn't really a possibility for you under that circumstance.

  Side note. Doing MORE work once you get back to the barn than what you did away, can help with being barn sour. Don't just finish your ride, unsaddle and let em go. If I got that saddle off and a brushing when I went to the barn, that's where I'd like to go as soon as I left. Even if you just leave em' tied for a couple of hours can help.

[Ben Framed]

CLS,
What is the 1/4? rule?

 Always be at least 1/4" farther away than they can reach/kick. Usually round pen/lunging/plowing work.

  I know it wasn't really a possibility for you under that circumstance.

  Side note. Doing MORE work once you get back to the barn than what you did away, can help with being barn sour. Don't just finish your ride, unsaddle and let em go. If I got that saddle off and a brushing when I went to the barn, that's where I'd like to go as soon as I left. Even if you just leave em' tied for a couple of hours can help.

Agreed.
In fact this is what I recommend before riding her solo again, (ground work) as well as tying her next to the barn area at different times for 'long' sessions. Let other horses come and go, drifting in and out of the pasture and barn area, with the barn doors shut keeping the other horses out, while allowing them to come and going as they please while she has to stand there 'in time out', (if you will), separated from the herd.

After hard work by you and the animal, and you feel the horse is once again ready to be ridden 'solo' and upon riding off she still shows the same barn struck tendencies, IMMEDIATELY 'without hesitation', begin a long hard lunging work out session, 'Like in boot camp lol', once the session is over do not turn her loose but again tie her to the hitching area, let the horse figure it out. "Hey it's much nicer and easier just having a nice pleasant ride than staying at this barn doing this work."  Let the horses attitude be your guide as to what needs to be done.  This 'may' take a LOT of had work by your both, horse and rider, but with patience and PROPER work and care, you may be able to transform this 'potentially' good horse into becoming a 'GOOD' horse.

Consistency is the key, along with CAUTION as this horses has already PROVEN she has little respect for the handler and will show aggression when she does not get her way. Be ready to defend yourself (if she decides she has had enough of work and instead decides to come at you again for 'this' reason i.e. work refusal). Good luck and enjoy your time and the reward of knowing you have saved a good horse from the dog food and glue company.

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

PS A horse of this type will always have the 'tendency' to be boss. Unlike a young two year old Colt of Philly, she is a grown mature, set in her ways horse.  This means if you put an inexperienced rider on her, even after all the hard work and she is doing just fine with you, she may try taking advantage of the inexperienced rider and attempt trying this inexcusable trait with the inexperience rider. In fact I would be surprised if she did not. If so ,the same problem 'will' occur again if she allowed to getaway with it, (meaning going back to the barn and the ride is terminated). If you give her an inch she 'will' take a mile, remember, consistency is the key. 

If you do not feel you have the time, patience, or experience to deal with Cherokee (or; you are not willing to learn with her for what ever reason, to gain that experience), then I recommend selling her to someone who does or is. There is no disgrace. But please disclose all information as you do not want her hurting someone else if you do sell her...

Phillip

[CLSranch]

she still shows the same barn struck tendencies, IMMEDIATELY 'without hesitation', begin a long hard lunging work out session, 'Like in boot camp lol', once the session is over do not turn her loose but again tie her to the hitching area, let the horse figure it out. "Hey it's much nicer and easier just having a nice pleasant ride than staying at this barn doing this work."  Let the horses attitude be your guide as to what needs to be done.
 
  I know horse people, even trainers who underestimate the usefulness of lunging. Not the old way of running them until they start to hang their head, then jump on them. When they do anything ANYTHING you don't want them to you can lounge them. I was going to train a horse for a ferrier friend who would lunge and lunge and then get on. NO real ground work. But he didn't like me getting off and ground working his horse when he was messing up. In reality he taught his horse how to buck and never got trust before getting on. I couldn't finish his horse his way.

    At the least little bit of wrong whatever it may be you "can" lunge the snot out of them and as mentioned they will figure it out, that the ride, holding my foot up for cleaning, later shoeing is a lot easier than running my butt off every time I yank my foot away or whatever your specific case may be.

[Ben Framed]

I don't know anyone who runs them until they start to hang their head, then jump on them, be they old trainers or newcomers. No doubt different folks do things different ways. I have never lunged a horse for foot work training and honestly Ive never heard it suggested until now. A lot of brushing, grooming, gently rubbing the leg along with soothing talk and patience, leads to picking up the foot, and has always worked for me and has never failed to be accepted in my experience by a Colt or Philly. I do not doubt that a lot of lunging will speed thing up in foot work. Kind of like kids who run, jump, and play at recess will be much more calm and relaxed when they go back to the classroom with the teacher. lol
I agree, building confidence in the trainer by the Colt or Philly is a step by step process. When done correctly will build a solid foundation which will produce good solid dependable gentle horses. 

A 'runaway' barn struck older sour horse on the the other hand is outright dangerous, not only to the rider but the horse itself.  Lunging has its time and place as well as grooming, and other aspects of gentle, easy patient, training. Knowing 'when' to do 'this or that', or knowing when 'not' to do 'this or that', is the key.....

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

CLS I am glad you joined, no doubt you and I, and hopefully others can share experiences we have had in training horses (and dogs).

Phillip

[Kathyp]

Deciding to have her own way and run back to the barn with rider aboard when she decides she would rather to go back to where the other horses are.

Yup.  Be ready to pin that nose to your knee and bail if she goes down. 

I guess I am getting old, but there are to many good horses out there for me to fool with rank stuff anymore.
Good luck! 

Oh, and it's not too uncommon for a horse that's insecure to be barn sour when they first come to a new place.  They don't want to leave their new buddies.  Longer and longer walks away from them, and them away from here will build her confidence although some horses never get over it and if they get to run back once, that's pretty much it.  They'll always try it.

But he didn't like me getting off and ground working his horse when he was messing up. In reality he taught his horse how to buck and never got trust before getting on. I couldn't finish his horse his way.

Yup.  Never let them do on a line what you don't want them to do under saddle.   

[Ben Framed]

if they get to run back once, that's pretty much it.  They'll always try it.

Agreed in most case. This is why I was warning Jim to be careful that he doesn't unknowably contribute to starting this action.

I have to be away from my computer for a while but I would like share a true story of such a horse later.

Phillip

[BeeMaster2]

Thanks for all of your posts. I?m listening.
Right now I?m giving Nina a lot of leeway with her horse. She took a year old colt, broke it and has been jumping it for many years. She is making headway with Cherokee. I really think she knows what she is doing.
Jim Altmiller

[CLSranch]

 And I don't know anyone who lunges them until they start to hang their head, then jump on them, old folks or newcomers.

Well that was the old way for many old timers and those today who only remember them and their ways.

No doubt different folks do things different ways. I have never lunged a horse for foot work training and honestly Ive never heard it suggested until now. I think Ill pass on that one lol. A lot of brushing, grooming, gently rubbing the leg along with soothing talk and patience, leads to picking up the foot, and has always worked for me and has never failed to be accepted in my experience.
 I agree mostly on this especially the start of the grooming etc down to picking up the foot. Yet I've had several that didn't want to keep their foot up. Easy peasy to pick up a foot, yet they didn't want it for very long. That's when I used the lunge. I think if you don't need to use the lunge in this instance don't, those that come across a problem later please do.
 I always start that way and have had horses that would pick up the next foot for me and let me clean it. Then they may lay down when trying to actually shoe them.

 My greatest asset to training today is to have the wife groom/pet/loveblahblahblah while I'm gone and I come home to an easy horse that thinks nothing of being saddled.
 

[CLSranch]

Several other post were sent before I noticed the new ones.

CLS I am glad you joined, no doubt you and I, and hopefully others can share experiences we have had in training horses (and dogs).

I haven't done a dog in a while, although I'm trying to get a 5 yr old to train a blue heeler. The dog still doesn't like me. The wife picked him up while I was on a job. It not liking me is what I LOVE about heelers.

Yup.  Never let them do on a line what you don't want them to do under saddle.

 Ditto

[Ben Framed]

Your welcome Jim. Your approach may very well turn out 'just fine' and I am rooting for you while hoping it does and the chances are 'it will'. 
Just pointing out what certain actions can lead to, while attempting helping you reduce the odds and avoid things going sour in a hurry, by sharing information which has been learned from the school of hard knocks, as well as information that has been handed down through generations my family who made their way of life by ranching.   


Phillip

[Ben Framed]

CLS, I love Blue Heelers. I relate! lol

When you have the time search the topic "My Friend Tuff" in the search engine at the top of the main page. I feel sure you can relate lol..

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

CLS I had edited my post in reply 24 before you posted,  I am agreeing with you that I can see where lunging for foot work will be of help, especially with a rough horse or spooky colt. I edited that post to say:

I do not doubt that a lot of lunging will speed thing up in foot work. Kind of like kids who run, jump, and play at recess will be much more calm and relaxed when they go back to the classroom with the teacher. lol

Of course kids and long enough 'recesses' at school these days may be seen as politically incorrect. ADD meds seem to be the accepted remedy for energetically inclined children. More so than a good 'ole fashion' recess full of run, jump, and play hard and 'get the energy out' until the bell rings "so you can come back to class relaxed and settled down, more easy to learn and absorb what teacher is expressing".  lol 
But what do I know? I am not attempting to switch the conversation to politics, but just wanted to point out the similarities of young and growing beings, be it an energetic Kitten, Colt, Dog, Calf, or even a human.  They all in my opinion, need to let out the natural built up energy. lol Now back to horses...

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

When I was a kid we had a neighbor boy who loved to ride. He rode just for the simple pleasure of it. No shows, no horseback work, just loved to ride. He had a small paint horse about 14.2 hands. A very good looking horse but their was a problem, every once in a wile the horse would just run off! Not to the barn but when the mood struck him he would just take off! I mean an all out runaway! This did not happen regularly, long periods of time might pass before he would do it again.

Kathys' warning of what to do when this happens in case of spill, reminded of a particular day. That day the horse pulled another run-a-way stunt. He was riding in our area and the clopping of horses hoofs could be heard before seen. The road was narrow and graveled. The horse was laying it down! When he came into sight it looked like the All American Futurity leader at Ruidoso Downs! lol

Where the road ended into a tee, their was a small inclined bank. The horse tried to make the jump over the ditch but was going to fast to make what would have been an easy jump at a slower speed so no jumping momentum was afforded. The horse lost his footing and fell. Both rider and horse went tumbling. We ran to his aid and miraculously neither horse nor rider was seriously hurt. Bruised up, banged up, and cuts but no broken bones. This was a tough kid. The grown ups ask if he would like for one of us kids to pony him back home, or the grown ups would trailer his horse home, if he preferred. He said no Sir, he has it out of his system. He will be ok for a few months and off they went...  Mmmm it was my opinion he should have had a oneway trip to the dogfood plant.  lol

Phillip

[gww]

Ben
Dog food?  You got something against glue?
Cheers
gww

[Ben Framed]

lol      Good point gww!!  The glue factory might have been a better choice for this runaway! 
I like your thinking, Instead of running off, he could have been some use in holding things together.! lol

Phillip

[Kathyp]

Ben, I used to have a mare like that.  She was the greatest trail horse.  Never put a foot wrong.  Every once in awhile, she'd just jump out from under me.  It was like she waited for me to relax and then she'd bold forward about 10 ft.  I put up with it for a long time, but she began to get squirrely about other things too.  One day she launched over the hitching post as I went to give her vaccines.  That was it.  Too much danger.  Too many vet bills from her throwing herself around.  I couldn't in good conscience sell her so I ended up having her put down.  One of the hardest decisions I have ever made about an animal, but I did get a nice colt out of her first and he's not nuts.   

[Ben Framed]

Horses, like people, have their own personalities. Some can be a pleasure to be around and work with, while others can be outright dangerous to people as well as themselves. Sorry she did not work out for you Kathy but life and limb is not worth continuing risking in my opinion... The type of horse you described can be 'very' dangerous.... Once they have learned to calculate from circumstances which fall in their favor, meaning they learn they can dump the rider at will 'when they see  the time is right', the more dangerous and more the undesired actions will progress.
There are ways to deal with such a horse as you have described, but it takes 'much' experience.. Experience which the majority of folks lack. There comes a time when decisions have to be made for what is laid before a person. Some times those decisions are hard. I hope you are still enjoying horses Kathy.


Phillip

[Kathyp]

I hope you are still enjoying horses Kathy.

I am.  In the case of that mare even my vet thought she had a screw loose.