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Author Topic: 8 frame vs 10 frame  (Read 4196 times)

Offline TheHoneyPump

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8 frame vs 10 frame
« on: May 18, 2022, 12:36:55 am »
Here is a question I have from some recent discussions.
There are advocates for 10 frame boxes and advocates for 8 frame boxes. Almost equal counts of pros and cons to each and over each other.  Lets say I want to try some 8 frame hive setups to get direct comparisons on how that performs to the 10 frame hive right next to it.  But I have all 10 frame equipment.  What is out there available for purchase or to make as blocks inserts that will drop into the 10 frame box, completely fill and block off the full 2 frame space? It needs to lightweight/featherweight, be cheap to buy or very low time to make, and will work for the entire hive stack, meaning there is a block in each box and each super in a hive that is 6 to 7 deeps tall. I might like to try it and see how the bees behave in the narrower but taller stack, but I have no money and no time to go on a box construction/modification odyssey.
 .. Suggestions of cutting down boxes are excluded from the inquiry. 
What have folks done or what ideas are out there for such an insert?
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 12:47:54 am »
THP,
I recommend using foam insulation boards with fill backing. Just cut them so that they are tight fitting.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 12:50:17 am »
HoneyPump, I suppose some proper size inserts could be made reducing a 10 frame space to an 8 frame space. If you don't mind me asking; Will this possibly lead to an experiment to see which you like best, (10 or 8 frames), that is, if you get the positive responses you seek? If so, (and for curiosity), how many hives do you anticipate on using in your very own experiment? The reason I ask, there are frame feeders which 'might' fit the bill for inserts, decreasing the need to build inserts from scratch for a simple experiment? Just throwing it out there for your consideration.

Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2022, 12:51:16 am »
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 18, 2022, 12:47:54 am
THP,
I recommend using foam insulation boards with fill backing. Just cut them so that they are tight fitting.
Jim Altmiller

Never mind my suggestion, I like Jims much better!

Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2022, 12:52:39 am »
Frame feeders wou also work very well.
Jim Altmiller
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Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2022, 07:22:27 am »

Thanks Jim, if the right size frame freeder is used it should work just fine, but I like your idea much better. Cost efficiency, (cheeper), and precision (of size of spacer) can be achieved all in one. Frame feeders can be expensive on a large scale experiment as opposed to your suggestion. Hats off to you.  :grin:

Phillip

PS
Using a multi-functional oscillating tool will make cutting foam board easy and precise.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2022, 08:56:31 am »
The problem is you would be comparing a 10 frame hive to a modified 10 frame hive not a 8 frame hive.  The pros and cons of each box are well documented.  No need to re invent the wheel.  Just need to decide what you want.
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Offline doug494

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2022, 09:48:59 am »
I don't like filling space with blanks like you are considering.

When I had some situations like that, it created space the bees couldn't get to but never sealed enough to keep out ants and beetles.  I always ended up with pest problems.

Using a feeder would be the only way I would try it so the bees can still do housekeeping.

For any long term comparison I think you need true 8 frame boxes.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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Offline cao

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2022, 01:33:20 pm »
My first thought was foam blocks that was already suggested.  Depending of what type of foam used, the bees might chew it up.  The feeder sounds like an easy fix but they are not cheap, depending on how many hives you are going to experiment with.  A follower board made out of a 1x cut to fit tightly and tacked into place would work, but would require some wood working skills and time to make. 
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2022, 01:56:30 pm »
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 18, 2022, 12:50:17 am
HoneyPump, I suppose some proper size inserts could be made reducing a 10 frame space to an 8 frame space. If you don't mind me asking; Will this possibly lead to an experiment to see which you like best, (10 or 8 frames), that is, if you get the positive responses you seek? If so, (and for curiosity), how many hives do you anticipate on using in your very own experiment? The reason I ask, there are frame feeders which 'might' fit the bill for inserts, decreasing the need to build inserts from scratch for a simple experiment? Just throwing it out there for your consideration.

Phillip
My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey.  I am not putting 6 feeders in a hive nor am I game to give them a chance to pack out feeders with bridge combs full of honey.

Am not looking a 1 or 2 brood boxes.  I am talking the whole hive for and entire year cycle.  Multiple hives in the experiment.  Enough that cost and effort for modification is a huge factor. 
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 02:21:46 pm »
Quote
My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey.  I am not putting 6 feeders in a hive nor am I game to give them a chance to pack out feeders with bridge combs full of honey.

Yes I knew they are 6-7 deep from your previous post and pictures. That is why I ask if this was an experiment and how many hives you might anticipate using in your very own experiment?

If only one or two hives, then the frame feeders might have been a consideration. If not as I responded to Beemaster2 *Thanks Jim, if the right size frame freeder is used it should work just fine, but I like your idea much better. Cost efficiency, (cheeper), and precision (of size of spacer) can be achieved all in one. Frame feeders can be expensive on a large scale experiment as opposed to your suggestion.*

Phillip

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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 03:04:46 pm »
HoneyPump, What is the purpose or objective of your interest in 8 Frame experimentation? From my understanding, most choose to go with 8 frames because of hive weight concerns. Is there a different reason for you?  With your equipment, weight should not be of concern? Nor should hive heights though your 8 frame boxes will now be 7-9 boxes high.

Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 03:26:33 pm »
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 18, 2022, 03:04:46 pm
HoneyPump, What is the purpose or objective of your interest in 8 Frame experimentation? From my understanding, most choose to go with 8 frames because of hive weight concerns. Is there a different reason for you?  With your equipment, weight should not be of concern? Nor should hive heights though your 8 frame boxes will now be 7-9 boxes high.

Phillip

Difficult to fully put into text.  My interest is in assessing overall beehive performance through a 2 year cycle.  Overall means ALL indices of performance and how the effects of those cascade through the management of the business.  Am approaching this as a matter of beehive performance and critter preference, not as subjective human personal choice or preference. I have my bias to 10F, but am open minded and thinking about trying some. I am short but stalky and burly furry guy, I do not care about box size or weight - that pro-con is not in the mix of indices.

So, basically I am looking for simple and practical suggestions of what has been done successfully for managing 8 frames of bees in hi-stacks of 10 frame boxes.  Has to be cheap, has to be easy, has to work. I have other inputs. Just figured I would check in here on what experiences there are in the BM group, and would be an interesting thread for the group.

I do not feel am reinventing or re-experimenting anything. Am taking a focused look at it wrt my particular operation and style, and this could be an interesting discussion here on BM.

PS:  the scope is less that a hundred boxes for the trial period.  Depending on what the results are, the impact would be on thousands of boxes.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 04:00:49 pm by TheHoneyPump »
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2022, 03:36:08 pm »
BIG THUMBS UP!
I wish you success in your endeavor!

Thanks,

Phillip 
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2022, 03:42:00 pm »
Adding just for your consideration:
Once a solution or choice has been made which fits your need, a replacement for two frames might be placed, one on each side of the super box. That way the mid box will still have an even distribution of weight. In other words the weight of honey will be equal when lifting each box. Two missing on one side and two still remaining on the other side (might) make the box a little out of balance when lifted. (If it matters).

Phillip
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 03:54:52 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2022, 04:04:02 pm »
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 18, 2022, 01:56:30 pm

My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey.

You better plan on extracting multiple times or you will be dealing with a ladder.
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Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2022, 08:08:26 pm »
I'd go with pink  Ownes-Corner "Foamular One"  lining each side AND cut it 1/8" short on all sides and skin it with Luan wood sheeting. 3 pcs Luan: top, side, bottom.  Edges and back meet the hive body.  Use Titebond or Loctite Powertgrab to glue the foam on and adhere the Luan. 

Luan is lightweight & inexpensive compared to pine or plywood.  Set the table saw fence and let 'er rip.  Chop to length.
 
Because otherwise...like Doug494 said... housekeeping problems with SHB & ants, wax moths, german roaches. 

The bees will propolize the Luan-faced corners, top, and bottom of the side "shim." 

Luan is pretty good with moisture, but the experiment would show HOW good it is when covered with proposlis/wax.
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2022, 09:42:21 pm »
Quote from: Acebird on May 18, 2022, 04:04:02 pm
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 18, 2022, 01:56:30 pm

My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey.

You better plan on extracting multiple times or you will be dealing with a ladder.

No issue there. I pull 3 boxes at a time and 3 to 4 times over the flow period. Typical is 220-280 pounds per hive in the barrel by the end of the summer
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2022, 09:50:28 pm »
Quote from: FloridaGardener on May 18, 2022, 08:08:26 pm
I'd go with pink  Ownes-Corner "Foamular One"  lining each side AND cut it 1/8" short on all sides and skin it with Luan wood sheeting. 3 pcs Luan: top, side, bottom.  Edges and back meet the hive body.  Use Titebond or Loctite Powertgrab to glue the foam on and adhere the Luan. 

Luan is lightweight & inexpensive compared to pine or plywood.  Set the table saw fence and let 'er rip.  Chop to length.
 
Because otherwise...like Doug494 said... housekeeping problems with SHB & ants, wax moths, german roaches. 

The bees will propolize the Luan-faced corners, top, and bottom of the side "shim." 

Luan is pretty good with moisture, but the experiment would show HOW good it is when covered with proposlis/wax.

I do not have SHB here to adapt to, yet. The season is so short that ants and moths only become a mild issue when the hive numbers do not have enough girth to properly patrol the space.

The luan could work. It should be lightweight and probably hold up for awhile. The idea of gluing 3 to 4 cut pieces onto foam for ### sheets would be too time consuming though. What may be quickest would be some sort of bee chew proof but bee friendly coating that that foam could be dipped in and left outside in a stack to dry.  Or even better, some sort of vacuum bagging machine big enough to handle the foam insert size and thickness. Rip out the foam pieces on the table saw, then suck / shrink and seal closed a plastic over it with some sort of bagging machine.

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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: 8 frame vs 10 frame
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2023, 12:39:19 pm »
I am bumping this interesting topic considering TheHoneyPumps' experiment.

Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
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