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Author Topic: News from our friends down under  (Read 7172 times)

Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2021, 11:46:06 am »
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Though politics and views differ on how to handle this, Florida chose a different approach. Florida has been under a microscope for its different approach toward covid

They did, as did other states.  As Ace pointed out, FL has a skewed toward the old demographic and so would be expected to have a much higher than average death rate.  Much higher.  And yet, it does not.

There are studies going back to the Spanish flu comparing masking, no masking, closing, staying open, etc.  We now have lots of data on the differences here and around the world with this virus.  None of these things make a difference with a highly contagious virus.  The only thing that might, and it is temporary, is locking people inside.  Been tried.  Failed.

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You must of missed the special on PBS recently on Dr Fauci.  The man is so accomplished and renown that he survived Trump.

Trump should have fired him.  He survived because idiots like those on PBS have made him a god.  He's a god to the left because he gave them control mechanisms.
 Good and consistent advice from someone else would have been far more helpful to any president than the ever-changing advice from Fauci.  Some humility from Fauci would have been equally helpful.  Saying that you don't know something but are working on it, is not a sign of weakness.  It gives people confidence that you are honest.

I think it would be challenging to find anyone, other than maybe the current CDC director, who has contradicted themselves so often, sometimes in the same days. 
Don't wear masks-wear masks.  Go on a cruise-don't go.  Have casual sex with strangers-don't.  Rioting is OK because it serves the public good-ball games are not OK. 
I get it.  We all get old and someone needs to tell us to retire.  He's well past his sell-by date.  I'll give him this, though.  He was very good at convincing our government to give him more money.  Wonder how much of that ended up in Wuhan?

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I don't think anyone argues that pandemics, plagues, or even famine can be solved naturally over time.  The costs is simply lives.  I can't quite wrap my head around lives not mattering much unless they are unborn.  How two faced.

I asked you before:  What do you think should have been done differently?  How would you handle things now?

Are you saying there should have been proof of residency before anyone got a vaccine?  Maybe they needed to show ID?

There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2021, 08:25:49 am »

I asked you before:  What do you think should have been done differently?  How would you handle things now?

Are you saying there should have been proof of residency before anyone got a vaccine?  Maybe they needed to show ID?
And I already told you but you ignore answers.  I will say it again.
None of the old people should have been vaccinated first.  They would have been safe by staying and home and not flying around the country to get a vaccine.  If you wanted to save the old people in nursing homes all that was needed was a mandatory vaccination of the workers and follow normal infectious protocols.
Now that the supply has been met there should be a mandate for vaccines for everyone because people are too stupid to do the right thing on their own.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2021, 12:14:56 pm »
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And I already told you but you ignore answers.  I will say it again.
None of the old people should have been vaccinated first.  They would have been safe by staying and home and not flying around the country to get a vaccine.  If you wanted to save the old people in nursing homes all that was needed was a mandatory vaccination of the workers and follow normal infectious protocols.
Now that the supply has been met there should be a mandate for vaccines for everyone because people are too stupid to do the right thing on their own.

So all of your 'Trump did it all wrong' stuff is just noise and your COVID history starts with the vaccine?

Starting with your abbreviated history of this virus, you are suggesting that the least vulnerable should have been vaccinated before the most vulnerable?  Let me share a quote that you might recognize. 
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I don't think anyone argues that pandemics, plagues, or even famine can be solved naturally over time.  The costs is simply lives.  I can't quite wrap my head around lives not mattering much unless they are unborn.  How two faced.

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If you wanted to save the old people in nursing homes all that was needed was a mandatory vaccination of the workers and follow normal infectious protocols.

Again, you ignore the over one year before the vaccine when "normal infections protocols" were not working for this virus. 

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Now that the supply has been met there should be a mandate for vaccines for everyone because people are too stupid to do the right thing on their own.

Sometimes people are stupid.  Who should be in charge of determining what is a stupid choice?  Once you develop a department of stupid choices, what else might they force?  I see people do things that I think are stupid all the time.  Maybe I should be in charge of the department of stupid choices?   :grin:

Freedom is messy.  The price of it is that people make bad choices.  We don't have to let people make bad choices.    Ask anyone from the old USSR.  They'll tell you that it was very orderly and no one was allowed to make bad choices. 
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline NigelP

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2021, 01:52:21 pm »

None of the old people should have been vaccinated first.  They would have been safe by staying and home and not flying around the country to get a vaccine.  If you wanted to save the old people in nursing homes all that was needed was a mandatory vaccination of the workers and follow normal infectious protocols.


Latest UK data suggests that double vaccinated people are still capable of passing on the virus even whilst showing little or no symptoms.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/19/double-jabbed-people-carry-levels-covid-unvaccinated/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2021, 08:51:27 am »
you ignore the over one year before the vaccine when "normal infections protocols" were not working for this virus. 

Here you go writing your own history again.  Normal infections protocols did work and still work otherwise every healthcare worker would be infected.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2021, 08:56:11 am »

Latest UK data suggests that double vaccinated people are still capable of passing on the virus even whilst showing little or no symptoms.

Capable because the virus was not nipped in the bud.  Most pass through infections have occurred because of some other medical issue.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2021, 09:01:55 am »

Freedom is messy.
When a nation is under attack freedom is taken away.  They call it the military.  Sometimes it is voluntary but mostly not.  The fact is if Trump was successful in starting another war everyone would be vaccinated including his base.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2021, 01:11:34 pm »
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Normal infections protocols did work and still work otherwise every healthcare worker would be infected.

I get that you do not have a medical background.  I also do not know how you define "normal infection protocols".  Define what you think that is  and we might have a place to start. 

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Capable because the virus was not nipped in the bud.

Back to where we started.  How should this have been done?

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When a nation is under attack freedom is taken away.  They call it the military.  Sometimes it is voluntary but mostly not.  The fact is if Trump was successful in starting another war everyone would be vaccinated including his base.

It is if we allow it to be.  We have a constitution, which is the law, to avoid that very thing.  Of course, we tend to ignore it, so yes, we lose freedoms for the illusion of safety.
Your comment about Trump and war implies that he tried to start wars and was unsuccessful.  Please explain.  Also, please explain the military bit? 
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline NigelP

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2021, 04:32:35 pm »

Capable because the virus was not nipped in the bud.  Most pass through infections have occurred because of some other medical issue.
Nope..... pass through infections are happening with perfectly healthy people who have been double vaccinated.. Or at least in the UK they are.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 04:55:19 pm by NigelP »

Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2021, 09:37:58 pm »
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Nope..... pass through infections are happening with perfectly healthy people who have been double vaccinated.. Or at least in the UK they are.

Here also.  Not only infections but the ability to spread the virus in spite of having been vaccinated.  The only thing the vaccines appear to be doing is keeping people from getting as sick as they might without, but we don't even know that for sure because we have varients that may be less lethal in the first place.
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2021, 08:20:56 am »
The only thing the vaccines appear to be doing is keeping people from getting as sick as they might without,
More misinformation.  The vaccine, like all vaccines prevent the recipient from getting the disease in 90% of the cases.  For those that do have a break through case it makes the infection less severe and shortens the time of infection.  If you prevent the disease from finding other hosts the disease peters out, quickly.  That is how vaccines work.  If you don't have a vaccine the virus spreads, gets stronger and will take many, many more casualties.  This is like 5th grade science.  I am beginning to wonder how many people on beemaster have a high school diploma.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2021, 08:29:35 am »

Capable because the virus was not nipped in the bud.  Most pass through infections have occurred because of some other medical issue.
Nope..... pass through infections are happening with perfectly healthy people who have been double vaccinated.. Or at least in the UK they are.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/vaccines
Review the data.  Try to understand what the data says.  Then answer the question, what fool would not take the vaccine?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2021, 12:59:17 pm »
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If you prevent the disease from finding other hosts the disease peters out, quickly.  That is how vaccines work.  If you don't have a vaccine the virus spreads, gets stronger and will take many, many more casualties.  This is like 5th grade science.  I am beginning to wonder how many people on beemaster have a high school diploma.

I think you only got to 5th grade science?

Vaccines work differently according to the disease against which you are vaccinating.  I saw a lecture by a virologist and if I can find it again I'll post it.  One of the big questions people ask is why can we get rid of things like polio with a vaccine, but not the seasonal flu?  The seasonal flu, like this virus, mutates and has many variants.

His answer was that the diseases we have been able to irradicate or control have had one reservoir.  You don't find the poliovirus in birds or pigs.  The virus has not mutated, to our knowledge.  It is now, what it has always been.  It has no place to hide other than within the human population. 

The flu, on the other hand, is in pigs, birds, and who knows what else.  It can endlessly mutate in any of its hosts.  The solution might be to kill all reservoirs, but that is not practical.

This coronavirus has been found in multiple species.  It is likely to end up being the same as the flu for us.  You can't get rid of it because you can't get rid of all the animals in which it might reside.  We can mitigate the impact, but we are going to have to live with the virus and people are going to die from it, just as they die from the flu every year.

As for breakthrough cases, we don't know the %.  We don't know how many asymptomatic cases there have been.  We don't know how many people with mild disease didn't seek medical intervention.  I came home from my last trip sick.  I have been vaccinated.  I had the symptoms but not to the point of going in for care.  Was it covid?  IDK and really I don't care.

Israel has done a good job of tracking and testing.  They put their breakthrough cases at as high as 50%. 
In spite of the money we throw at our agencies, we have not done a good job of studying anything about this virus. 

People have all kinds of reasons for not doing something.  I thought the vaccine was in my best interest.  If I had young children at home, I probably would not be too hot to get them vaccinated.  I know a couple of people in high-risk categories who have chosen not to be vaccinated.  It is their business and their choice. 






There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline NigelP

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2021, 01:41:25 pm »

Capable because the virus was not nipped in the bud.  Most pass through infections have occurred because of some other medical issue.
Nope..... pass through infections are happening with perfectly healthy people who have been double vaccinated.. Or at least in the UK they are.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/vaccines
Review the data.  Try to understand what the data says.  Then answer the question, what fool would not take the vaccine?
Ahhh I see the obfuscation argumenta .... from stating only break through infections  were in people with medical conditions has now illogically migrated to what fool etc......
Well this old fool is not fooled.
 :cool:
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 01:55:25 pm by NigelP »

Offline gww

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2021, 03:54:18 pm »
Anything can be over loaded but the real question is, if exposed to smaller amounts of virus, it is true that the virus can not take hold in a portion of the vaccinated at all and is therefore stopped in its tracks from being spread by the vaccinated person.  Even if this amount that this happens in is 50% and break through cases still happen and still spread, 50% is much better odds of slowing the virus and of you not being the one that kills some one else that is not vaccinated or is susceptible to a break through.  In other words, are you helping or hurting when you could be helping. Secondly, If vaccinated keeps the infection low enough even if sick to not over load the health care system so that others are not left by the way due to not enough health care resources,  Is that not a good thing and a choice that the person can help or hurt?
Cheers
gww

Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2021, 04:25:15 pm »
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Anything can be over loaded but the real question is, if exposed to smaller amounts of virus, it is true that the virus can not take hold in a portion of the vaccinated at all and is therefore stopped in its tracks from being spread by the vaccinated person.  Even if this amount that this happens in is 50% and break through cases still happen and still spread, 50% is much better odds of slowing the virus and of you not being the one that kills some one else that is not vaccinated or is susceptible to a break through.  In other words, are you helping or hurting when you could be helping. Secondly, If vaccinated keeps the infection low enough even if sick to not over load the health care system so that others are not left by the way due to not enough health care resources,  Is that not a good thing and a choice that the person can help or hurt?

Most of your logic is sound.  Some of the above we do not know yet and will have to rely on other countries for the answers because our bloated and expensive bureaucracies don't seem up to the research tasks.  My point is that this is not going to be a virus that we conquer.  It is going to be one that we learn to live with.

Where we might differ is on the greater good argument.  While the argument can be made that it is for the greater good that people get vaccinated, I draw the line at forcing things for the greater good.  I will also draw the line at forcing this on kids.  while I trust adults to make whatever decision is best for them, and I am not concerned at my age about long term effects, AND I am reasonably confident that this vaccine is OK for most adults, I do not have the same confidence in this for kids.  Kids immune systems are not developed, this vaccine type has not had rigorous testing in children.  This is a decision that parents will have to make for themselves, but risk vs reward would keep me from giving it to my young kids at this point.
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline Geoff

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2021, 06:41:53 pm »
 
  Still amid all the facts (? ) and forecasts we now await the results of most restrictions being lifted or moderated over a long week-end. The figures still show that amongst the latest local cases and deaths the percentage of un-vaccinated is extremely high.
  To all the posters on this forum and this thread have you noticed that I dont debate with KathyP, I dont like losing  !  !
Local Area Network in Australia - the LAN down under.

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2021, 08:04:35 pm »
To all the posters on this forum and this thread have you noticed that I dont debate with KathyP, I dont like losing  !  !

And you are a very smart man.😁
Jim Altmiller

Offline Kathyp

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #98 on: November 01, 2021, 11:18:04 am »
No one is keeping score  :grin:  Besides, when it comes to this virus, there is more we don't know than what we do know.  The only losers under these circumstances are the pols who keep giving us orders and don't have the ability or will to adapt to new info.
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman

Offline Acebird

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Re: News from our friends down under
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2021, 08:37:46 am »
My point is that this is not going to be a virus that we conquer.  It is going to be one that we learn to live with.
Only because forced vaccinations have not become the norm.
You don't find it ironic that school children already are subject to forced vaccinations and very few people were up in arms about the long term effects.  Most understand that the long term effects are good.
Your hesitancy was said to be "not fully approved" and now it is.  The real reason for all this hoopla is political.  It is an attempt to make Biden look bad when none of it is his fault.
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