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Offline Acebird

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2021, 03:56:38 pm »

Brian,
The reason hitler lost is due to many reasons.
First he was not a great strategist,
Strategies come from the military just like they do here.  The point is he had the most advanced military with the most advanced weaponry and still lost the war.  We probably don't have the most advanced military, maybe we have the most advanced weaponry but we still lose every fight.  That is our record since WWII.
Hitler suffered from the same problem Trump does.  An ego that doesn't quit and delusional that he could ever make a mistake.
What is sickening to me is that all the waste of the military spending is not doing us one bit of good for our security here at home.
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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2021, 04:25:01 pm »
Cider, we can argue past engagements, but there is a new reality that I hope the Europeans are watching.  The US is done as the world power. 

For a long time the free world has counted on the US to be there for protection and support.  We were able to do that because we had a lot of people who wanted to serve and because we didn't waste money supporting a bunch of freeloaders and people who made bad decisions.  Most of the NATO countries took advantage of that and did not live up to the agreement. Your country is an exception.  Other countries are simply not big enough or strong enough to completely defend thems  There will be leadership in the world, but it will not be the US or any of the free nations.  None are strong enough. elves. 

Our time is now done.  We have decided to become a mediocre social welfare state.  We do not have the resources to be there for anyone anymore and we certainly don't have the leadership in either the political class or the military. 

IDK how this is going to end up or how quickly things will collapse, but it is coming.
Kath
As I have probably said before, welcome to the club, the retired superpower club.
It will take around eighty years to come to terms with what's happened, only then you will attach yourselves to the coattails of another superpower as Phil believes we did! I just hope it will be as benevolent as ours was/is :wink:
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2021, 04:34:40 pm »
Quote
It will take around eighty years to come to terms with what's happened, only then you will attach yourselves to the coattails of another superpower as Phil believes we did! I just hope it will be as benevolent as ours was/is

Seems unlikely that it will be benevolent given the lineup.  We shall see.  I don't think it will take 80 years to sink in though.   :wink:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2021, 07:59:53 pm »

Brian,
The reason hitler lost is due to many reasons.
First he was not a great strategist,
Strategies come from the military just like they do here.  The point is he had the most advanced military with the most advanced weaponry and still lost the war.  We probably don't have the most advanced military, maybe we have the most advanced weaponry but we still lose every fight.  That is our record since WWII.
Hitler suffered from the same problem Trump does.  An ego that doesn't quit and delusional that he could ever make a mistake.
What is sickening to me is that all the waste of the military spending is not doing us one bit of good for our security here at home.

Are you attempting deflection Brian ? The former administration had plans of leaving Afghanistan in the second term. He did not invade countries in his Presidency, nor did he exhibit wild behavior as the Maniac Hitler did. Sometimes ego can be confused with confidence. A trait that Trump had. It's no secret to the informed of those plans and intentions to pull out of Afghanistan when the time and situation was right, as he was working on even then..

I seriously doubt those plans included the unfathomable, bumbling, mistakes made, including ultimate mistake of arming the foes with the latest and greatest armorant as this administration has just finished doing!! Makes me wonder about this  bumbled pullout? Or was it an incredibly stupid act? I do not know how any administration could be so incompetent. Have we witnessed such lack of ability and skill of leadership since Carters 'Iran' Presidency here in America?

Let me ask you, why are you not scolding this lifetime Career Political Politician who is now President, why are you not on his hind side for such obvious negligence? What possible reason can you have for attempting protecting and covering for him, by resorting to divervisional attacks directed toward the last Administration who has probably not set foot or toe in the White House since leaving? Biden is the President? Biden and his administration called the shots in this utter display of total failure and tragedy...   


> Hitler suffered from the same problem Trump does.  An ego that doesn't quit and delusional that he could ever make a mistake.

Really? A power freak with such an evil ego will be made manifest when the power is his. Just as HItler did.
Let's take a closer look in comparison: as you suggest they are the same?

Hitler Chancellor of Germany, invaded Poland in 1939, Denmark on April 1940, Norway April 1940, Belgium May 1940, the Netherlands May 1940, Luxembourg May 1940, France May 1940, Great Britain July 10, 1940, via air attack, which was protected from German ground attack by the English Channel and the Royal Navy. Yugoslavia April 1941, and Greece April 1941. On June 22, 1941, German forces suddenly invaded the Soviet Union.
 What Country did President Trump invade?

To be as fair as possible, along with looking at it in un-bios way on this view. George HW Bush was a wartime President. So was George W Bush.
Lets not forget Obama, also a war seeking President.
Let's take a look at the latter:
Obama increased the U.S. military presence in Afghanistan to 68,000 troops. Throughout his presidential campaign he had argued that the focus of U.S. military efforts should be in Afghanistan rather than Iraq, and, with the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Obama choose to send an additional 30,000 troops.

Now look what his former VP..   "This is a big deal man"  Joe himself just did! How do you think he will be able to fix this? "Wave a magic wand?" HUHH

Now where did Trump lead an invasion or a military build-up, as the three mentioned Presidents of America 'of both Parties'? And last but not least, ride his 'ego' as you claim by invading or continually building up foreign occupation and war as the former Presidents had started?  Let alone follow the evil trail of Hitler?
 
Seems you are a little confused to say the least while seeking to confuse others.

But I still luv ya Brian... :cheesy: 


« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 07:24:25 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2021, 08:18:32 am »
Phil, the US has been arming terrorist groups all over the middle east and Africa for a long long time.  We even have switch sides.  It is common get over it.  You don't recall Trump selling arms to the middle east?
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2021, 11:25:46 am »
Ace I would have hoped even you could have answered better. What a pitiful reply considering the circumstances of the topic. Has the stark reality of failed leadership of this administration overwhelmed you? Or do you even care? Is that also the administrations answer to all the military who have served so long and faithful for the past 20 years, there in Afghanistan? And the Americans trapped there?
 >get over it<

Now where have we heard that before? Has this become the motto of your Party in times of tragedy and failed policy?
>get over it<


Cider, we can argue past engagements, but there is a new reality that I hope the Europeans are watching.  The US is done as the world power. 

For a long time the free world has counted on the US to be there for protection and support.  We were able to do that because we had a lot of people who wanted to serve and because we didn't waste money supporting a bunch of freeloaders and people who made bad decisions.  Most of the NATO countries took advantage of that and did not live up to the agreement. Your country is an exception.  Other countries are simply not big enough or strong enough to completely defend themselves. 

Our time is now done.  We have decided to become a mediocre social welfare state.  We do not have the resources to be there for anyone anymore and we certainly don't have the leadership in either the political class or the military. 

IDK how this is going to end up or how quickly things will collapse, but it is coming.  There will be leadership in the world, but it will not be the US or any of the free nations. 

Sadly I think you may be correct Kathy.


Yes Cider and Kathy you may be right, With the now proven lack of leadership we now have, and the continued support given by his constituency as we continue to see, makes me wonder how can it be otherwise? Maybe you are right Cider? Maybe we got the leadership we deserved.  ...  Sad





« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 12:12:16 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2021, 11:33:16 am »
Quote
Maybe we got the leadership we deserved.


Of course we did.  Same point I have made about the countries south of us.  They are supposed to be some form of democracies and if their countries stink it is on the people who put the foul odor into office.

In each case, the story is the same.  Promises of stuff given to them If only you put me/my party in charge.  We will make your life better!.

The story is the same for all of the 20th century.  At best, a country ends up mediocre.  At worst, and this seems to be the norm, a country ends up so destroyed that the people want out as quickly as possible, if they are even allowed to get out.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2021, 02:10:16 pm »
The following quote was entered into Congressional Record, July 26, 1961, p. 12622 by Sen. J. Strom Thurmond (Democratic),  in which Ezra Taft Benson summarized his encounter with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev in September 1959.

Who listened?


"We cannot expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."
Nikita Khrushchev Premier of the Soviet Union
 

 
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2021, 03:09:35 pm »
Quote
"We cannot expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."
Nikita Khrushchev Premier of the Soviet Union

we have short memories.  Everyone else, from Islamists to Communists, plays the long game.  We also have a sort of arrogance in thinking that it can't happen here.  Ask the Polish people or the Hungarian people or the Venezuelan people how quickly that can change. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2021, 11:29:20 pm »
Quote
Kathy
we have short memories.

I own Mr Carter an Appology for even considering comparison to this present Administration.. He was a genius in comparison...

According to Michale Lewis Americans are instructed to not go the airport for evacuation!

According to the Epoch Times Tonight the Armament tallies are so far as follows. 

22,174 Armored   Humvees

64,363 Machine Guns

8,000 Heavy Trucks

155 Mxx Pro Mine Proof Vehicles

42,000 Pickup Trucks and SUVs

634 M1117 Armored Security Vehicles

169 Armored Personal Carriers

162,043 Radios

16,035 Night Vision Goggles

358,530 Fully Automatic Rifles

126,295 Pistols

176 Pieces of Artillery

That was just from the Afghan Garrisons
In addition to that. The US Military left behind over 100 helicopters including

33 Blackhawks

33 MI 17s

43 MG 530s

They left over 60 Airplanes including

4 C130 transports

33 A 29s

28 Cessna 208s

10 Cessna AC 208s
All three of the latter are strike capable equipped.

I do not know how many tanks as of yet.






For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2021, 08:54:34 am »
LOL Phil they are just going to sell it back to us.  Ask Kathy, they don't have the technology to run the stuff and keep it going.  The war is over but the money flow will continue for many years.  Then there is the possibility of our new age military.  We pay one terrorist group to fight another.  Actually that has been the norm for a while.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2021, 12:20:12 pm »
LOL Phil

Yes I'm sure it is funny to anyone with your point of view. Including those of that number in Washington.
Sad
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2021, 02:27:46 pm »
But let us all give thanks that there are no more mean tweets!!
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2021, 02:43:56 pm »
Kathy
Quote
But let us all give thanks that there are no more mean tweets!!
That works for me. :wink:
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2021, 05:34:25 pm »
But let us all give thanks that there are no more mean tweets!!
God isn't it wonderful.  Haven't felt this good in a long while.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2021, 01:36:12 pm »
Quote
AceBird
they don't have the technology to run the stuff and keep it going.

Yes that is the bunkum being spread. Actually I say Bumkum times X 2.   Two plus two always equals four?  'Someone there', knows how to run the stuff. Have we wondered who that someone is? Do you wonder who it is? I just watched a video of a blackhawk doing a flyover there, with a taliban banner waving in tow flying gracefully parallel over and down the thoroughfare lined with people below.

Wasn't the taliban once our friends? We were not helping them during the Reagan Administration when Russia had invaded them? Yes, though both bruised and battered, the Taliban which now run Afghanistan today.. 

Food for thought:
There is a lot of "but this happened" and "that happened" and we this, or we that, or they did this or they did that, which is left out below. I know no more, than what the news of both sides tell us. Same as we on both sides of the political aisle..  Sad..  How do we know what to believe as everyday citizens?

I remember going to horse sales and mules being sold at each when occasionally I went to those sales in the latter years when Reagan was President. One of the buyers told me they were all going to Afghanistan to the taliban in carrying supplies though the Afghan mountains in resistance from the invaders of Russia..

How do we know the Afghan nationals have been loyal or unloyal to us 'from the start'?  Or for that matter where their true loyalties lie? Why would they be loyal to us? Could it be the Afghanistan people, from necessity, learned to be survivors? First invaded by Russia, then by our own leader George W, from here in America, along with NATO.  Where they, all the while learning all they could, buying their time, surviving until all foreign influence left?... How do we as everyday citizens, know what was really going on? Maybe they learned the moto: "Keep your enemies close, know your friends well and your enemies better." "Time is on our side": Or maybe that is not it at all?

There is a lot of fill in the blanks in the above. No doubt which can be argued from here to when?

If there was ever an example of why the majority of our founders warned us of becoming involved in foreign entanglements, this should be it....... not just the recent turmoil but going all the way back to the very root of the problem. What an example of a mess!!

Maybe this could be used as another good reason of why we Americans got sick of career politicians and took an opportunity to elect the Previous President, an outsider...  America is only as good as the people which are its citizens. We The People run this country and We The People as a group are responsible for who leads this country.

Now like Coolbees once posted. "Make people think and most will hate you".  I do not wish for any of you to hate me of either party. But like Cider says and Kathy agrees, we get the leadership we deserve.
'Most founders' were Known to be Godly Men, or at least had reverence for God. Maybe we should be careful to elect that type citizen again?..  Not quacks of both sides..?

 
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2021, 02:50:50 pm »
Quote
Yes that is the bunkum being spread.

We spent 20 years training the Afghanistan army.  How many do you think (re) joined the Taliban?  They know how to operate that equipment.  What the Taliban does not keep, will be auctioned to the highest bidder and reverse engineered to their benefit.  We didn't spend much time "disabling" the equipment, so I'm sure there's plenty of good stuff for the Taliban and their friends to play with. 

History can't be judged with hindsight.  Hindsight is for trying to avoid future mistakes.  History happens in the moment and has to be judged by that moment.  We have always used unsavory types when it was to our advantage.  We used privateers who were nothing more than pirates willing to legally ply their trade.  The ability to issue  Letters of Marque and Reprisal is in the constitution.  We got in bed with Stalin for ww2 and communism ended up killing more people than the Germans.  We might have avoided the Vietnam war if we had not gotten in bed with the French, but we chose to ignore HO and support the people who never managed to successfully manage a colony. 

Hindsight tells us a lot and it might have been used to avoid staying in Afghanistan and arming them these last 20 years.  We might have used the experience of the Brits and the Russians to learn that lesson.  We didn't. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2021, 03:57:36 pm »
We spent 20 years training the Afghanistan army.
And they gave up in less then a month.  The Taliban did not win with high tech arms.  However the Afghan's lost with high tech arms.
I think the biggest threat to the Taliban is going to be the Afghan women who have nothing to lose by fighting them.
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